Guild Wars 2

Vague Memory.2817:

It is definitely not just other classes calling for mes nerfs, but a few vocal mes mains. There are just some people who don’t like change even when it is beneficial. The changes actually make the class more accessible to new players, and I think some self-styled gurus feel threatened by that. I agree with the posters who are wondering why mes are getting so much attention when Guards, Engi and Necros have been given ridiculous dps skill burst and sustain.

I’ll add if you’ve become very good at fighting with a broom handle, god help everyone when you get hold of a sword. Mes are definitely not OP, we’ve learnt to use underpowered tools, and dodge/kite with a sliver of health for so long that any beneficial skill tweaking pays big dividends to the dedicated player.

I’ve never really understood the self sabotaging that happens here. It is very bizarre, and comes across as elitism among a few. However all mes pay the price. Well these people don’t speak for me and I’m pretty sure not for most of the mes community either.

^ This

The answer is that the “Mesmer community” is made up of idiots who were happy to play portal/+1 to fights bot for years and years. It was never what the class was intended for and now it can reliably fulfil its role they’re getting their panties twisted. Great reason why the devs should’ve ignored the forums from the start.

The way the minor characteristics of this setup are being debated over as though it constitutes a fundamentally sound part of the game if only for a few nerfs or buffs is hilarious. Why are the die-hards in this game such masochists? You are clearly being trolled by the devs and you just keep lapping it up.

That it loses effectiveness against decent players does not alter the fact that you could write a very simple macro to play this setup at a ‘top’ level (or what passes for GW2’s ‘top’ at least) and there would be minimal if any noticeable difference (the pressure is all completely AI-driven or passive in the case of the exploding turret knockbacks). It’s not how effective it is or isn’t that matters, it’s that you don’t even need human input to play the thing. Certainly there are other spammy and mindless builds that come to mind but none comes even remotely close to this one. It’s like some kind of bad joke.

Mesmer isn’t a good choice for anyone.

The conceit that four completely trivial tweaks would somehow perfect a near-perfect game is absolutely hilarious. Please never change, e-sporterinos.

Stealth doesn’t really have a lot to do with the issues between Thieves and Mesmers.

Happy to help anyone with power shatter.

Definitely missing 9k Mug crits and triple stacked shattered strength myself.

Supreme.3164:

shimmerless.4560:

Supreme.3164:

Never talked about what Mesmer community desire…I’ve simply stated what should be given, whether you’ll personally like it or not, well surely is none of my concerns.

My point simply is that we cannot have a burst build with the defensive potential to match a bruiser build or even negate the role thieves excel at, because at that point then I ask for a revamped fresh air build, zerker staff and even d/f zerker

In the end whenever I use a zerker amulet on any other profession…I get hunted by thieves too, I get focused too so if a shatter Mesmer should be buffed, then all other zerker builds should be buffed too and I’m all for it my friend

Most of us were not in favor of the damage on greatsword being buffed over and over. (It’s almost all because of air and fire, by the way. Without those two greatsword’s ranged damage is mediocre).

Whatever else you can say about Mesmer damage, it’s completely predictable. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Mesmers never have trouble with other Mesmers themselves? But it begs the question, doesn’kitten If shatter Mesmer’s so strong and simple to play, why aren’t you out playing it right now?

As a related aside you’re “stating what should be [a] given”, okay, who the hell are you exactly? This is the very reason why message boards are useless.

I have stated in my OP and that was a suggestion, the purpose of a thread is to give a POW, nobody here is a dev and don’t need you to remember me that tyvm.

If you ask me why I don’t run fresh air or any other zerk build well…because it get farmed by thieves?! Reason why I opt for tanky builds and why I have suggested to do the same for mesmers, at least give that option but again if you want to keep playing shatter build..by all means do that.

But with a viable tanky option , Mesmer community would have not more reasons to ask for buffs…no more reasons than the rest of us

I didn’t ask why you don’t run fresh air. I asked why you aren’t playing shatter Mesmer, since according to you it’s the strongest spec in the game and just one buff short of being broken.

Mesmer has (and likely Necro does too) tanky builds, the thing is that they’re really boring and they certainly don’t need further buffing — you should check out the sustain on a properly set-up bunker Mesmer sometime. Please keep your D/D Eles to yourselves, I’d honestly rather they leave my class completely alone than turn it into another snoozefest.

And to the best of my knowledge people haven’t been requesting sustain on Necro but rather some sort of answer to the ridiculous stun-locking that goes on once you’re placed in anything more than a direct 1 v 1.

Supreme.3164:

Never talked about what Mesmer community desire…I’ve simply stated what should be given, whether you’ll personally like it or not, well surely is none of my concerns.

My point simply is that we cannot have a burst build with the defensive potential to match a bruiser build or even negate the role thieves excel at, because at that point then I ask for a revamped fresh air build, zerker staff and even d/f zerker

In the end whenever I use a zerker amulet on any other profession…I get hunted by thieves too, I get focused too so if a shatter Mesmer should be buffed, then all other zerker builds should be buffed too and I’m all for it my friend

Most of us were not in favor of the damage on greatsword being buffed over and over. (It’s almost all because of air and fire, by the way. Without those two greatsword’s ranged damage is mediocre).

Whatever else you can say about Mesmer damage, it’s completely predictable. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Mesmers never have trouble with other Mesmers themselves? But it begs the question, doesn’kitten If shatter Mesmer’s so strong and simple to play, why aren’t you out playing it right now?

As a related aside you’re “stating what should be [a] given”, okay, who the hell are you exactly? This is the very reason why message boards are useless.

Supreme.3164:

A shatter Mesmer can be compared to a fresh air ele, same kind of role, but the fresh ele got even less sustain by comparison

Wow, lol. Hey I heard poison does wonders, you can even get it for the cost of a single sigil on any class you like. Unfortunately I don’t get healed for spamming buttons so if I can’t #6 I’m pretty boned.

By the way none of us playing these two classes wants a lame “bruiser”/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz snorefest build. The fact that glass vs glass is about pure reactions and mind games is exactly why we’re in love with them. We just want the reward to be consummate to the difficulty needed to play them at a high level, or at least for the painful aspects to be ironed out. To be honest I’ve played glass Mesmer so long I’d be comfortable without any buffs so long as they gave us bug fixes at this point.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Neptune.2570:

Now for serious input and conversation. Have not had the chance to play since the port changes but so far its sounding awesome. Is it true though Johnny that traited blink still goes on full CD if uneven terrain?

I guess it makes perfect sense to 1-shot anyone regardless of profession? <o> or just thieves should be 1-shot, I fail to realize whats your point here. Sad mode much?

Should we discuss how I run away from turret engineer because I have negative chances of winning or we still discuss that thieves are op and hardcounter is something just the thief is doing?

P.S: That moment when one quotes the wrong post because double post noob, lol
P.S.S: Mesmers are perfectly capable of resetting a fight if they pick mass invis instead of Moa, which I tend to dodge automatically

I know Thief tends to be a very single-key heavy profession but you have a #4 key on dagger/pistol for a reason. Maybe if you’re on skill dagger you could even refrain from mashing your steal off cooldown and outskill that pesky 5 seconds of Mesmer stealth.

Sword/Dagger in general is just a terrible concept. It’s like pistol whip in that it’ll always be either ridiculous or totally useless.

You can still get killed/take damage during distortion too, lulz.

Entangle doesn’t bother me that much (although I’ll go to bat for VeeWee here and say that it does disproportionately shaft Engineers). What does grind my gears though is that rune set that dumps a bunch of AIDS on elite use. Rune of the Krait or something? That becomes a lot more frustrating because you end up with a set where the biggest threat is entirely from runes and sigils.

evilapprentice.6379:

shimmerless.4560:

Rome.7124:

evilapprentice.6379:

StickerHappy.8052:

The OP is not even asking to nerf thieves, HE IS JUST ASKING FOR A GM TRAIT TO WORK PROPERLY

Without any class bias.

Why are thieves being defensive?

The Trait requires you to spend 6 pts sheesh.

Okay, want a fair compromise?

It wont affect thieves, but make it an adept minor trait? Fair enough?

It does work properly.

Thieves have no cooldowns on weapon skills. You can’t increase what doesn’t exist. You’ll note that it works exactly as intended on a thief’s 6-10

Explain how thieves can steal something that doesnt exist then?

I’d love to hear his explanation for shadow stepping (on a damage-dealing skill) without a target as well

You’ll have to clarify your meaning, because I’m not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean using something like Inf Strike or Shadow shot with no target? Because I fail to see how that applies.

As to quoting Rome, for shame shimmerless. I ’ve disagreed with you in the past, but at least you attempted to remain logically consistent. Are you so out of salient points that you need to rely on semantic arguments devoid of actual logic?

You fail to see how it applies? You have a skill that specifically says “shadow step to a foe” that can be used apropos of nothing, where is the consistency here? Can you do this with D/P #3 (which is technically a shadow step, as can be seen by shooting through the walls on clocktower)? No because there is no consistency at all. So many, many skills in GW2 behave the way they do “just because”. Whatever Rome’s history may be, on this issue I’m in complete concurrence.

Rome.7124:

evilapprentice.6379:

StickerHappy.8052:

The OP is not even asking to nerf thieves, HE IS JUST ASKING FOR A GM TRAIT TO WORK PROPERLY

Without any class bias.

Why are thieves being defensive?

The Trait requires you to spend 6 pts sheesh.

Okay, want a fair compromise?

It wont affect thieves, but make it an adept minor trait? Fair enough?

It does work properly.

Thieves have no cooldowns on weapon skills. You can’t increase what doesn’t exist. You’ll note that it works exactly as intended on a thief’s 6-10

Explain how thieves can steal something that doesnt exist then?

I’d love to hear his explanation for shadow stepping (on a damage-dealing skill) without a target as well

Xiahou Mao.9701:

Well, if people are still intent on it affecting thief weapon skills, then I’ll go back to what I said earlier. It needs to affect auto-attacks as well, as they’re mechanically identical to thief weapon skills. Why is it fair that using Power Block on someone using Spatial Surge doesn’t add a cooldown? Why do seven out of eight classes have a whole tenth of their skill bar that is immune to Power Block?

Everyone loves the idea of change until it winds up hurting them. Then, suddenly, they backpedal.

I have absolutely no issue with the trait affecting Mesmer skills the same way it would anyone else. That’s bearing in mind that Mesmers get boned by interrupt specs the worst already (they have some of the most telegraphed skills and no real condition removal).

Good thing we have so many ardent forum warriors to completely ruin any given thread with solipsist Teef whining.

Jelzouki.4128:

Quadox.7834:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Oh look, thieves have executioner grandmaster trait, but you can make a distortion and avoid the dps. Welp … lets buff that GRANDMASTER trait and have it hit people through blocks and evasions and stuff. Yeah, seems fair!

Pretty sure every class can complain of other classes negating their grandmaster traits.
You can hardly get a bunker guard below the health threshold for the execution to work … OMG OMG NERF BUNKER GUARD BECAUSE THIS WAY HE EFFECTIVELY NEGATES EXECUTIONER TRAIT

wait what? o.O

Now if you are done posting jibberish, accept a simple truth. If you can’t beat a thief, you are not good enough. Also, there are classes/builds you simply can’t defeat in 1on1. Every thief lives with this mindset. Learn to do it as well.

/Thread.

P.S: Plus you are talking out of your kitten . Take D/P thief for example. If he fires Headshot at you and you block it, he is 4 initiative back. Maybe create a thief before posting bullkitten?

Also its like 99% of you thief crybabies forget that thieves get Revealed debuff on out of stealth anything…

What the actual kitten, this is not even remotely the same. lol.

It actually is in fact the same. Someone in this thread made the plea that a class avoiding another class’ GM trait is poor design or unbalanced or whatever.

No, it’s a completely ridiculous non-argument. Executioner is “mitigated” by distortion in the same sense that it’s mitigated by a Warrior immunity or a blind or mist form. The interrupt trait is a very clear example of one class being given carte blanche to a major trait investment for no real reason. (It’s not as though 30 Dom isn’t glassy enough to begin with).

By the way the trait originally worked on said skills upon release. It was only changed because it caused Groucharoo took a dirt nap on his Teef in solo queue.

If steal was nerfed it would be a long, long time coming.

Aomine.5012:

Drennon.7190:

Firebird.8324:

This would be a really, really awesome change.

Sure! Take away vertical attacks too. So longbow Rangers and power necros can’t sit on a ledge or roof and spam one. Because they take so much skill! It’s only fair!

By the time ranger and necro climb up the roof, the fight is already over and your team lost the middle. HF dpsing on the roof while all your teammates died and the point is captured.

Apparently someone doesn’t remember old school HGH Engineers.

A few more:

Mes (either) vs Terror Necromancer — 8 : 2
Without pre-nerf Dhuumfire the pressure is too low and Mesmers play much more aggressively than they used to

Mes double ranged vs Med Guard — 5 : 5
Can go either way although Guard has more room for error, while Mesmer can camp staff clones and ‘cheese’ a bit

Mes GS + Sw/T vs Med Guard — 4 : 6
Nerfs to sword really hurt this matchup as the clone dies fast and retaliation goes through the blur

Xaylin.1860:

I would love to see Portal getting a significantly lower cooldown (e.g. 45-60s) but having the number of available ports cut based on the cooldown reduction. This would encourage people to use Portal while fighting and not only for fast-travels between cap points.

That’s actually a really cool idea, I’d never thought of that before.

The gist of what he (or she) said isn’t really wrong.

shimmerless.4560:

Here’s a few Mesmer ones. Like the OP said these are just my opinions/experiences, others could feel very differently about them.

Mes double ranged vs Mes GS + Sw/T — 2 : 8

Mes double ranged vs Engi condi/Rabid — 8 : 2

Mes GS + Sw/T vs Engi condi/Rabid — 7 : 3

Mes double ranged vs S/F Ele — 5 : 5

Mes GS + Sw/T vs S/F Ele — 7 : 3

Mes double ranged vs D/P Thief (Crit) — 3 : 7

Mes GS + Sw/T vs D/P Thief (Crit) — 4 : 6

My apologies as I didn’t realize the explanations were mandatory. I will brush over the major reasons for rating each of these.

Mes double ranged vs Mes GS + Sw/T — 2 : 8
Stealth is too strong

Mes double ranged vs Engi condi/Rabid — 8 : 2
Very high amounts of damage, interrupts and condition pressure that an Engineer can’t really deal with

Mes GS + Sw/T vs Engi condi/Rabid — 7 : 3
Similar, rated down a point due to the melee factor (where Engineer thrives)

Mes double ranged vs S/F Ele — 5 : 5
Can go either way, depends a bit on how defensively the Ele is set up

Mes GS + Sw/T vs S/F Ele — 7 : 3
Stealth

Mes double ranged vs D/P Thief (Crit) — 3 : 7
Lack of melee defense can make life difficult

Mes GS + Sw/T vs D/P Thief (Crit) — 4 : 6
This set is better suited to Thief engages, in both these matchups Thief is more vulnerable to being globalled but excellent sustain and a superior reset in Shadow Refuge outweigh the risk (in my opinion)

Mesmer is not nearly as weak as you seem to believe, Rome. I share in Chaos’ cheery optimism here. I understand the frustrations you’re feeling and the place you’re coming from, but bear in mind that once you have a good knowledge of matchups and, Mesmer is very lethal and the best class at fulfilling multiple roles. There are a lot of reasons for its lack of popularity right now but for the most part they only affect organized tournament play. You can do very well with a Mesmer in solo queue with a bit of dedication. In fact I’d argue it’s one of the best solo queue classes.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I think I like the shield and greatswords for the same reason you dislike them, Bliss.

They don’t fit.

Mesmer, IMO, is all about unorthodox. No one would expect a greatsword on a caster. The same way you don’t expect a mage holding a sword. Shield falls into that Mesmerish category of “wow I never expected this on a caster.”

I do get that line of reasoning, and I’m not one to hate on someone’s tastes (okay that’s a lie). I think it’s not so much that greatsword/shield are the Nickelback of Mesmer aesthetics and more that there’s things I sorely wish we could have before the oddball options. Something like Mesmer dagger (either main or offhand) would be fantastic, for example.

Here’s a few Mesmer ones. Like the OP said these are just my opinions/experiences, others could feel very differently about them.

Mes double ranged vs Mes GS + Sw/T — 2 : 8

Mes double ranged vs Engi condi/Rabid — 8 : 2

Mes GS + Sw/T vs Engi condi/Rabid — 7 : 3

Mes double ranged vs S/F Ele — 5 : 5

Mes GS + Sw/T vs S/F Ele — 7 : 3

Mes double ranged vs D/P Thief (Crit) — 3 : 7

Mes GS + Sw/T vs D/P Thief (Crit) — 4 : 6

Shiyo.3578:

Drennon.7190:

Phantaram mentioned that, while playing the demo, 90% of the teleport spots no longer work. Not only will this hurt thief mobility, but thief escape mechanics as well. If this is true, I believe that this will be the tipping point for thief in the meta. The risk will no longer be worth the reward.

Great change if true! This will let other zerker builds become much more viable.

Posted by a Thief main.

You do realize the exact opposite is the case? I swear sometimes it’s like these forums are populated by Martians.

Shield is pretty dumb but I’ve also always disliked greatsword for the same reason really.

Has any game ever successfully avoided power creep of this sort? Genuinely curious.

You can’t rework Thief because they’re ANet’s ham-handed answer to ledgers. Without Thieves Mesmers would be absurdly strong. I’m not by any means saying I’m on board with the current situation but that’s just the reality of the game at the moment. The balance hangs on a very shaky precipice.

Mrbig.8019:

Elitist.8701:

Or maybe just get better at the game ^^

I was better.

Now i’m no more cuz the game sucks, it’s a sheetton of passive sheet put togheter and my pvp experience ( like many other players even TOP players) is just bad, plainly bad.

So i don’t concentrate anymore when i’m playing, getting progressively worse.

And i see no reason to concentrate again and getting good again.

This has very little to do with the EU community, although it’s truly bad, toxic and right now much inferior to NA one.

Tbh i just can’t understand why NA community is getting healtier and bigger right in the time were gw2 PvP is at its lowest but whatever, your choice.

Have fun playing this crap game, i’ll just wait for HoT

You’ve done absolutely nothing but whine for two straight years (even when you’ve rarely been seen playing anything other than the most brainless Thief specs and occasionally a 1v1 hero power Nec). If the game is so terrible, leave already. You won’t be missed.

I don’t recommend the torch trait. As you’ve noted some matchups become far more difficult for the sake of one condition drop and slightly higher stealth uptime. Just keep your distance and play like a power P/D Thief. Landing a full Cry of Frustration once they’ve left water can really screw them over.

Against Engineers you can just range them with greatsword. For example on Temple there are ledges on the sidepoints where you can pump out ranged pressure to your heart’s content. There isn’t much if anything they can do to answer to this. (If they’re LoSing it means you’ve already pushed them off point).

I’ve played mostly NA from England. It’s usually alright, at the very top levels you’re at a slight disadvantage and the difference on EU is definitely noticeable (good god it’s like butter).

Yes, because Thieves are totally dependent on blink spots compared to some other classes whose viability is arguable at best. Rolleyes.

These forums are always good for a laugh.

Dondagora.9645:

Levetty.1279:

Anet needs to stop trying to make interrupt builds a thing, its not going to become a thing.

Yeah, no~

CI Mesmers are already pretty strong, and CS can be at times to. So, thanks to various efforts, interrupt builds are already “a thing”. ANet is just supporting it.

They’re not strong because of interrupt-based gameplay. Their success is almost pure build wars.

The only issue (and it was pretty minor in the big picture) with the old solo queue was the way the leaderboards were calculated. I still have no clue why it was removed altogether.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

After discussing celestial meta for the past few days, I could use a topic that has 100% agreement to ease my mind. Who likes this? xD

What the hell is a forum specialist?

I can’t say much for lockdown but shatter Mes has a very favourable matchup against Engineers. Actually I think shatter is one of the hardest matchups for Engineers after Necros (of both sorts).

Thieves aren’t really that well-balanced in capture points either. Sure they’re a necessary check on ledgers and some other specs but the way they can decap and abuse initiative/no cooldowns is brainless, it’s the major thing that leads to AFK home bunkers.

Cool read! Thanks for posting muffin.

I don’t troll sir

Lordrosicky.5813:

I agree with OP. I hate the fact that there is still a bit of damage which comes from weapon skills and utility. Honestly, it is a joke. Fire and air sigils should do double their damage. I hate only taking 7k damage from an auto attack (we should dodge auto attacks i guess my bad). I wish it was 14k damage. It would be much MUCH more fun if fire and air sigils were much better.

Come on anet.

I will say the game can be kitten the #1 key already so perhaps they could mail us some of those fancy GW2 keyboards too.

evilapprentice.6379:

Failed sarcasm, uninteresting scenarios, cringe inducing writing style, hyperbole and exaggeration needed due to lack of real evidence for argument.

2/10, Please don’t try again.

43 pages of solipsistic Teef whining… pot meet kettle

nomdeplums.5780:

I wish zerker builds were viable without air and fire sigils too.

Agreed muffin, glass builds have never been viable until Groucharoo thankfully buffed air and fire for us.

With the coming release of Stronghold (aimed at casual players of course) I think it’s a good time to take a look at increasing the amount of specs that can go full defense and still do great damage thanks to air and fire sigils. Players have responded very positively to these specs (note the popularity of Fresh Air Eles, Skill/Dagger Thieves and greatsword Mesmers) and it naturally follows that we need to go about adding more of them.

Perhaps Groucharoo, that wacky zany character could weigh in with some of his thoughts (but keep them positive please, ArenaNet is a lubed-up no-contact zone. Don’t make me squeal out my safe word).

I think a good start would be to maybe increase the amount of sigils per weapon set to four. Perhaps these two could trigger on swap? But then four sigils per (for a total of eight) could be a lot for newer players to keep track of, some kind of big loud notification system like the indicators on a car could help. “SWAP WEAPONS AT THE NEXT CAPTURE POINT INTERJUNCTION, CITIZEN”.

Frankly I find nothing more satisfying than checking the combat log and seeing that the majority of damage I’ve taken over a game was from fire and air sigils. Even better yet, some stray nothing skill like Dust Devil or Winds of Chaos hitting a freak double proc and dealing a nice 4k chunk of damage! Randomness is awesome but predictable randomness that permits quick, easy plug-and-play build warsing is the best. Build wars uber alles!