Guild Wars 2

I think we are perhaps at a crossroads. I can’t seem to convince you that Blurred Frenzy isn’t quite as powerful as you make it out to be, and I likewise doubt you’ll convince me on the merits of letting retal go through it.

You seem a little fixated on the (relatively) low cooldown of Blurred Frenzy. This is a deceptive line of thinking. Take Obsidian Flesh for example. It has roughly four times the cooldown, but you are not rooted in place, you can use all other abilities (and attunement swaps) and it can even be used while stunned. In the hands of a knowledgeable player this skill can be just as if not more effective than a Mesmer’s sword on a more regular basis. Simply moving away from a glass Elementalist is not going to cut it when he uses this skill. On a similar note evades like Flanking Strike and Disabling Shot have no cooldown at all.

On the whole sword is a balanced weapon that errs on the side of defense. This is true for all the classes who can use a sword. Rangers have a total of ~1.5 seconds of evade uptime and heal denial, Guardians have a full projectile block, Warriors and Thieves have a displacement that doesn’t require a target (and in the case of Thieves it clears a condition). Of course retal can go through an evade, but this is misleading since the only comparable multi-hit skill is Pistol Whip, which did have issues with retal until the Trickery line was buffed.

When you approach skills holistically you understand why it is folly to cross-compare too much. One of the key differences between a Mesmer’s sword and another class’ set and a good reason it’s unwise to balance it out of context is that our sword is heavily weighted on the effectiveness of Blurred Frenzy. We are the only light class trying to use one and if we have to stand in place for two seconds it needs to be for a very good reason. (Swap has some defensive uses but it is much less reliable). Twelve seconds may sound short but it is a very long time for a glassy Mesmer, which is why skills and their cooldowns are so relative. But if players are still having trouble trying to combat this skill without abusing retal then I don’t know what more I can say.

Shadowflare.2759:

shimmerless.4560:

Again, I want to stress that there are no counter-measures in the strict sense you’re thinking of against dozens of skills and mechanics in this game. How do you counter Obsidian Flesh? Flanking Strike? Serpent’s Strike? Withdraw? Renewed Focus?

Your argument falls apart when you start comparing blurred frenzy to those skills.

You’re starting to cross-compare skills between classes on a broader level, which wasn’t my argument. Mine was simply that, if people are claiming there were no counters to Blurred Frenzy before because you couldn’t use retal or aura effects, then this goes for a great, great many other abilities too. So why is Blurred Frenzy singled out?

I think you and many other posters are also drastically underestimating the downside of the root and its potential for intelligent players to exploit it. It is already a melee weapon which means you are susceptible to being kited. The skill gives you an evade (although even before the nerf it was subject to silliness like Binding Blide and Nightmare rune procs) but it amplifies your traditional weakness in that you’re rooted on spot and your opponent can move out and avoid all damage. Please tell me what has changed for the better in allowing players to thoughtlessly “face-tank” the skill too? The opportunity cost for using Blurred Frenzy (and sword in general) can be rather high whereas applying retal to oneself, well, is it quite as much?

I should point out that I am not solely questioning Blurred Frenzy’s zerg potential. Retal and saturation AoE are just as common in sPvP too, and until ANet decides to split the skill we are discussing it as though it were used in all game modes anyway.

Again, I want to stress that there are no counter-measures in the strict sense you’re thinking of against dozens of skills and mechanics in this game. How do you counter Obsidian Flesh? Flanking Strike? Serpent’s Strike? Withdraw? Renewed Focus?

The expected play and response of different skills changes depending on the case in question. In some instances you are punished as a player for plowing through them. In others, you are punished for not doing so (c.f. Guardian’s Shield of Wrath).

In Blurred Frenzy’s case you are a Mesmer with a sword and so you are given some evade time. There was and still is an appropriate counter-measure: you can wait the ~2 seconds before answering with your own powerful abilities. You can move away from him to avoid the damage. You gain the knowledge that his skill is now on a 10 – 12 second cooldown. Is it a must that players should in addition able to damage the Mesmer through the root as well? If so, why?

+1!!!!!!!!!

/15char

Have any devs posted on this issue? (I know about the livestream, but what was said there was very vague and difficult to interpret).

I think some posters in here are coming at it from a misguided angle. Making it so Blurred Frenzy isn’t negatively affected by retal wouldn’t be a buff, it’d be a revert; Blurred Frenzy originally ignored all effects and was nerfed to the state it’s in now. Thus it’s really misleading to imply organized groups are using retal to counter sword Mesmers, because they were always using retal before the change anyway.

I still don’t believe I’ve heard a compelling reason why the skill should’ve been changed this way in the first place.

This whole idea that Blurred Frenzy “lacked any counter” is complete nonsense.

Many, many skills in this game lack counters by this bizarre definition that a defensive skill should have damage go through it. Blurred Frenzy is rather tame in that it roots the caster; the same cannot be said for Obsidian Flesh, Gear Block, Counterattack, etc.

The proper response to Blurred Frenzy was to move away from the damage arc and not toss high value skills into the blur effect. The nerf changed nothing in this regard (it’s still the appropriate response to a sword Mesmer) but only served to introduce silliness like the OP’s experience.

draconx.3102:

Let’s talk about the bugs and how the list is getting bigger instead of smaller, rather than balance/l2p issues.

The only bug with mesmer downed skills I’m aware of is the rogue not attacking (same as the warden), which is on the list.

The problem is that it’s almost impossible to tell which “bugs” are failed attempts at balance and which are legitimate quirks or errors in patching.

Was Power Block “bugged”? I think it’s highly questionable and I’m not the only one. Is distortion currently bugged? If so, how on earth do you even introduce a bug like that? Was removing protection from on-cast Chaos Armor a “bug fix”? LoS? Blurred Frenzy? (I’m sure the devs would love for you to think that last one was just bug-fixing).

The guise of making every single change under the auspices of “bug-fixing” is getting tiring, and it’s starting to come off as a cheap means of deflecting criticism.

There is no reason to make “autoattacks” immune to confusion. If you get hit by a sizeable application of confusion an appropriate response is to stop attacking.

The spell that was intended to punish single high burst skills (Backfire) never made it into the game. Among other things confusion is intended to punish repeated skill use, it’s one of the reasons why it’s there. (For Mesmers it is also a means of survival).

I thought all of these sounded rather cool (pun intended), +1 from me.

Longbow will always be popular because it’s the most reliable ranged means for a Warrior to set up his swap damage. This would still be the case even without the fire field, Arcing Arrow, etc. (It’s also one of the few weapons that can free cast a Cleansing Ire proc).

A full melee Warrior holds less appeal because it’s susceptible to being endlessly kited by blink and ranged classes.

I think the best option would be to leave the longbow alone (which has already seen many nerfs) and instead introduce new weapons, particularly ranged ones. Some could be more defensive and some more all-in. Without more choices the longbow is always going to be a popular fall-back for a lot of people.

I’m rather shocked. What happened to #ELEtism, my loves? Perhaps your poor minds have calcified from aeons of Elementalist subforum posting and waiting dew-eyed for the latest Elementalist buffs that’ll make all your instant win dreams come true. Fret not, there is always a light at the end of the tunnel. Simply open your minds; the OP’s spec could very well be the answer you’re searching for, and it’s right here in front of your ascended noses.

If the strengths of Attunejam’s Glyphmentalist spec aren’t making themselves clear, perhaps you ought to broaden your horizons? I’ve heard quasi-legal hallucinogenics are a useful tonic for that sort of thing. Or, you know, take a walk in this fresh summer air. Dwell on the nature of Elemental Attunement, boon duration, zone control, all that lark.

As our patron goddess of candi-spamm management Lyssa has sagely intoned:

“Many have eyes, but few have seen.”

Helpful bump!

/15char

I was thinking about the recent placement of Illusionary Invigoration lately and how much it’s bugged me. The reason is that I’ve always taken Illusionary Elasticity to put pressure on staff, and it’s now impossible to have both (which did and would still come at a cost, namely the appealing Adepts in Illusions).

Something else I’ve also been wondering about is shatters heal, namely Restorative Illusions in Inspiration. I understand that there are always new avenues to explore, and that many lines sometimes shy away from being “pure” to encourage creative thinking, but I can’t shake the feeling that this trait’s placement was intentionally obtuse. As someone here once put it, it seems designed for an 80 trait points Mesmer.

Why not kill two birds with one stone? We could move it to a Major Illusions trait, perhaps swapping places with Phantasmal Haste. Ideally I think it would work as an Adept, in which case Dazzling Glamours could take its place.

I can certainly anticipate this trait being too strong in Illusions, but I can’t imagine it being overbearingly so, and I think you would see it balanced by the interesting choices that one would make by having a healing option at this trait tier. Do you want heavy defense? You could take shatters heal and shatter recharge (if it were Adept). Sustain and damage? Heal and damage per illusion, or recharge and damage if it were Major. Sustain and staff pressure? These are all choices which encourage different playstyles, opening some doors while closing others.

I really think this would be a strong way to rescue one of our niche traits and bring it into the limelight in a healthy and skillful way.

What does everyone think?

Narkodx.1472:

Evalia.7103:

Is soldier gear required on a thief?
Right, it isn’t. So why should SA be required? Never ran it, and 1v3-4ing quite often.
I only ever go in SA tree to get 100% stealth uptime combination for the sneaks inside enemy towers/keeps and that’s it.

Sure you do. ONE necro full staff rotation and your’e dead without SA. How do you cure conditions? Shadowstep? 3 every 50 seconds maybe Lyssa runes? – Horrible nowadays for DPS with ferocity nerf. Pain Response? LOL. 2 Points for Shadows Embrace is MINIMUM for WvW. You like fighting multiple people 1v3/4 who are not brain dead? Need 6 for Rejuv. Thief has weak sustain without SA. But don’t believe me go out there in full berserker and ALL DPS traits. Let me know how it goes

Thief has some of the most competitive sustain in the game without SA, I’m not sure where you’re coming from.

Chaith.8256:

Incendiary Powder is not able to be evaded forever when you’re trading blows. This is a fact. But Incendiary Powder can be body blocked and wasted on fodder targets.

It’s also important to look at Incendiary Powder in the context of the entire Engineer profession.

Engineers have pretty awful long range poke damage. In fact, the reliable Engineer ranged poke is pretty much only 1spam. Engineer 1spam is also miserably weak, as a class design.

Basically, if accurate Engineer ranged damage is nerfed, it will present a lot of problems when going up against Professions that simply stay at ranged and play really defensively: Shortbow Thieves and Mesmers (who already body block IP with clones.)

Edit: Unavoidable burning also seems to be kind of a theme with most professions. Combustive Shot for all on point, group Justice Virtue for all, Sun Spirit burns for all.

Abilities like Combustive Shot, Incendiary Powder, Sun Spirit, Virtue of Justice – by design is to be a hugely bottlenecked damage source (can’t stack in intensity) but at the same time designed to add a damage component that will ensure that without proper condition removal that the attrition fight will continue to work. It essentially puts an expiry time on the fight.

This is completely spot-on and I think Jimmy would agree. The problem though is that this doesn’t justify the poor design. The proper response would be to either bring up Engineer’s ranged options (arguably difficult given the nature of grenades) or more simply bump the damage onto their actual weapon skills. Other classes have been designed without completely unavoidable damage just fine, so it can be done.

There is no reason at all for passive burns to work this way (I too have argued in the past that they’re an intentional threshold put in to limit game length). The game has no dedicated healer; any target can be brought down eventually through power alone. In fact because players bring the appropriate removals (as well as a solid mid Guard/Ele) the passive pressure punishes sidepoints play the most, where it should really be about the abilities you use and not the amulet or the traits you’ve chosen.

dancingmonkey.4902:

How so?

How much damage per second can the P/P, P/S, or rifle put out with this trait that makes it a problem?

This was one trait that was mentioned as being a selection to assist the very low damage weapons. I have seem this thread remade multiple times, yet I have never seen anyone justify how this effects DPS levels to justify a worthy complaint in my eyes.

The fact that you call this a “main source” of damage without showing one iota of proof that it out damages any weapon set at all (because it doesn’t) is a clear display you are not looking for an honest discussion on the subject.

If it’s not a main source of damage then why isn’t there a single meta spec that skips the trait?

I agree with oZii, the antipathy towards Strength runes is a bit knee-jerk to me. They seem to be getting carried in with a lot of other new things people dislike.

Strength as the premier damage rune makes a lot more sense than Ogre ever did. Ogre has a rather powerful summon and if it’s to be a set piece the rune ought to be centered around that and not the flat damage bonus. You would think people would be happier that Strength surpassed Ogre, since there are tons of counters to boon-stacking but none against the Ogre bonus. The duration bonuses too can be seen as a risk, because instead of a flat crit damage increase or some other basic effect, you’re gambling on something that can be stripped off.

I should point out that I seldom use the rune and have no real personal bias one way or the other. But I do think that while the sigil updates may be a whole other issue, the options for runes feel much more varied and open after the patch.

Perhaps I came across as combative, which wasn’t my intention. I likewise apologise. I think if your aim is to rework a mainhand weapon, it’s worth having a serious, in-depth dialogue like this. But I will understand if you do elect to finish here.

I really should clarify that I have no problem at all with changing or revamping the scepter in certain ways, so long as it’s done gradually and cleverly. I actually liked the idea of chill instead of blind on the active #2 cast. That, to me, would be a good development and it’d reward skillful or risky play. It’s a +1, and I think most would be hard-pressed to disagree.

What I fear is that players looking for a “pure” condition weapon (of which there are surprisingly very few in the game) will kill the scepter’s hybrid nature and turn it into something much less interesting as a result. Things like displacements and certain effects (like an active chill on a block skill) are great ideas because they’re spec-ambiguous and reward weapon mastery over which amulet you have on. Things like a simple condition nuke or a pressuring condition autoattack do not.

To expand on something I just mentioned above, I must point out that many weapons have strong power scaling (Necromancer scepter, Thief and Engineer pistol). The reasons they are perceived as “pure” condition sets has far more to do with different game aspects and the way each weapon works respectively. (In the Engineer’s case it is also in large part because you only have two choices for slotted weapons anyway). I have always seen the scepter as somewhat analogous to power pistol Thief. When you see it that way, you understand why it’s different to greatsword in the same way that pistol is different to a shortbow.

But the fact that our scepter differs in that it doesn’t reward overuse of the #1 skill is a very positive element. In that sense, giving another effect to the third (or maybe the second) skill in the chain would still give opponents some quarter. But a copy-paste job of the Necromancer scepter chain wholesale is something I really don’t want to see.

No, I never said they were badly designed. You’re putting words in my mouth. I said they can be countered, which is (generally speaking) a good thing. How do you counter sword #2? Displacement, blocks, invulns, cancel-casts. Does that make sword #2 a skill with problems? No, it just means now you have players using different skills to try and counteract one another.

Scepter doesn’t compete with sword for the most part, it competes with both our 2hrs. With scepter you have a weapon that scales well at all distances, provides versatile protection (due to its clone generation) and an extra offhand for more flexibility. Say you were coming up with a sidepoints Mesmer? Scepter would be a strong candidate because it’s very much single-target, strikes a balance between offense and defense, gets you mileage from phant fury and you can take weapon stealth for the disengage without losing damage pressure.

BlackDevil.9268:

Sure you can use your scepter in a power build, but will it outshine sword or greatsword? No.
Optimal to who? Everyone who runs power builds.
In what situation? Every situation besides players who use 0 condition removal but also aren’t mobile and don’t have a high enough burst to go through your squishyness and 1 block. Sword/ Greatsword > scepter in any besides that situation. Sword offers a much better synergy with phantasm than scepter due it’s immobilize and it allows you to pull off your burst combo’s more frequently. Scepter offers nothing more than a greatsword or sword can do besides having that torment block, which will deal pretty poor damage and is still easy to evade.

This is all completely your opinion, though. It lacks any context. When I say there’s no “optimal power weapon”, it’s because your goal and what you’re trying to achieve and the situations you expect to find yourself in will determine your weapon choice effectiveness, it doesn’t by any means just come down to which primary stat you’re playing.

Scepter is appealing if you would like two offhands without forgoing ranged pressure, and its skills favor close-quarters to midrange (where GS excels at far). #2 is useful for countering key burst skills, and as it doesn’t root it can be used while moving. (The block itself is immediate and can also be cancel-cast for this purpose if the full effect is unlikely to land). The clone can then be used for different shatters to ward off or counter-burst melee opponents. It is possible to achieve similar ends with greatsword, but it’s less reliable.

BlackDevil.9268:

If they would make this weapon stronger for power builds then they clearly don’t have any idea what to do with the weapon. ‘’Oh scepter seems bit weak on conditions, let’s add conditions and remove the power part’’, ‘’ oh scepter now lacks on power, let’s justa dd power to it!‘’
A mainhand weapon that allows both conditions and power to scale well. I don’t really think those things are in game yet and I’m sure there’s enough reason why. I think that’s the point where anet doesnt give much about #1 auto attack. If they would buff that it would come out really op. That would mean:
- A good #1
- Best and on lowest cooldown torment applier
- A channeling skill on a fairly low cooldown that applies 5 stacks of confusion and also deals 1.5k per hit raw damage.

Scepter is already used quite a lot, especially in condition builds. You will need to nerf something to rebalance the weapon to make it more viable than only #2 and/or #3.

Well, I’m not making the case that scepter needs reworking into some kind of pure condition weapon, because I don’t think it does. Were it to happen the game would lose out considerably in the process.

I have no issue with any update to the auto because the other two skills (bar the gamey condition-scaling on torment) offer dozens of counters already. Scepter #2 can be blocked, evaded or dodged, #3 can be interrupted, LoSed, etc.

BlackDevil.9268:

Well that person should already call it a win the moment you start spamming #1 scepter…
GS has higher dps than sword, why not go down that road?
I can tell you: at start of the game they thought of what you said, which could actually be true. There’s 1 problem though: We’re 2 years in game now since these skills were made and both the meta and even the weapon itself changed a lot. #3 scepter became piercing and #2 it’s blocking effect got changed. At this moment you can better ask the question: Why do they still scale so good with power? It makes no sense. There’s no way scepter is gonna be better than any weapon for power builds in the meta. Sure it can be good, but better than sword? or GS? Nah that wont happen.

Problem with mesmer is lately that our meta doesn’t get changed but we still get buffed at non-meta gameplay. You can almost put that next to useless for people like me who are always chasing the meta to have optimised gameplay. I can imagine it’s fun for people who like some variety in their gamestyle, but the moment you start to like the ’’optimalization’’ of builds and gears you will get annoyed how arenanet is handling mesmer at the moment.

There’s no such thing as a universally optimal weapon. Optimal to who? In what situation? Is dagger mainhand more optimal than sword on a Thief? What if he’s traited fully into Acro? How about shortbow?

All of our weapons right now have their strengths and their weaknesses. Greatsword falls off against sticky melee foes (which is why it’s commonly paired with staff at the moment). There are many uses for the scepter where one would often prefer it over alternatives. It just takes an open mind and experience to see what it brings to the table.

That said I am always willing to entertain new changes, so long as it isn’t turned into a rote condition-spamming weapon. Torment was an interesting idea, but if they absolutely must change the scepter I would rather see something truly disorienting. Perhaps the clone on the third auto could cast a small blind on summon, or you could reposition laterally (or swap with an existing illusion), or gain a second-long stealth (given that the full chain is two seconds long).

As an aside the scepter has always been a natural hybrid and I would be very disappointed if it lost this quality (it lends itself very well to shatter, which has also always been a quasi-hybrid due to full Illusions).

A somewhat unimaginative albeit natural change to the scepter would be to just add the confusion stack that Ether Clone for a long time laid claim to. But otherwise the weapon’s power scaling is perfect.

Confusion probably should’ve been a Mesmer-only thing but they threw that out the window a long time ago, so.

While I don’t think Thief heal skills need to be even more loaded with functions, I do agree with the OP that the spirit of the heal isn’t being reflected. It’s incredibly obvious that it’s supposed to remove all DoTs.

Junkpile.7439:

Only thing that makes ele weak is player lack of skill. Trust me i know.

I certainly hope you can give Jam some Elementalist lessons in-game, Junkpile.7439, maybe then he’ll stop biting my ear off.

Force does affect Mind Wrack. On-proc sigils will also trigger on MW because it counts as a weapon skill.

Tommyknocker.6089:

silvermember.8941:

Tommyknocker.6089:

They will nerf it into the ground once enough players have bought theirs; #goldsinks.

It is a gold sink only because you don’t know what gold sink actually means.

Umm o.k so, please inform me as what a gold sink then…

As it seems to me when you buy something (strength rune) at an increased price, thus removing the gold from the economy, due to a mechanism released by ANET (patch) this just might constitute a gold sink. The only difference is that these runes are a voluntary gold sink as you don’t NEED to use them … just like waypoints.

He means that because you’re buying the runes from other players (via the Trading Post), the money is just changing hands; it’s still in the game. It would only be a gold sink if the money were somehow destroyed: for example, if you could purchase the runes from vendors. That’s why waypoints are a sink but things like unbound weapon skins aren’t.

Lucentfir.7430:

Like I said lets test it in Spvp to prove your point. You play a power bunker build with damage multipliers, and I’ll play my condition build with additional condition application. This is kind of like the thing that people say looks good on paper, but plays differently in-game. So i wanna test it against someone that knows how to play, a power bunker build. it’s pointless to try to point out things on the forums anyway.

It’s rather amusing, no? You’d think if PTV autoattacks were so strong and conditions were just so weak, it’s what they’d be playing already. Very convenient. (The engaging condition playstyle must just be too much of a blast to give up, even if it’s underperforming).

dancingmonkey.4902:

Wait, Shimmerless, are you suggesting that we start using damage comparison numbers and actual facts with numerical values for arguments on this thread now?

If so, I would really like to see your thoughts on how conditions as a whole are over powered compared to direct damage skills. Seems a bit out of sorts to see you criticize anothers numbers when you have not offered us any at this point.

Personally, It seemed to me, that common sense would dictate that he was simply making a point about the other poster mentioning spamming all of the skills, then that would be a good time to use a cleanse. I never did see where ash mentioned using any cleanses.

So I’m to take it that the whole, “You have 20 seconds to counterplay the Mesmer” thing was totally made up for the sake of dramatic effect, then? Because I am saying unreservedly that you will never in a million years have 20 seconds where you’re safe from a Mesmer’s pressure or kill potential if they are playing with the gloves off.

I rarely discuss numbers because mathcraft isn’t my forte and I don’t think they tend to reflect the actual game (Soldier’s, Soldier’s gear!!! Does so much damage!!!). But I do find it terribly amusing that you’re chastising me when you’ve made statements like, “All classes have a guaranteed immob clear” and you didn’t know how much damage your own burn-on-crit was doing. Stones in glass houses much.

Andy.9137:

maeggle.6021:

Why give them traits like IP when most condition and hybrid engineer builds already can reapply strong conditions faster then necros while having better access to defensive spells and boons? I don’t see how IP improves overall gameplay, player skill and fun for all players involved.

It’s so we are not forced into one specific kit to have access to burning.

Oh, heaven forbid!

dancingmonkey.4902:

Wait, Shimmerless, are you suggesting that we start using damage comparison numbers and actual facts with numerical values for arguments on this thread now?

If so, I would really like to see your thoughts on how conditions as a whole are over powered compared to direct damage skills. Seems a bit out of sorts to see you criticize anothers numbers when you have not offered us any at this point.

Personally, It seemed to me, that common sense would dictate that he was simply making a point about the other poster mentioning spamming all of the skills, then that would be a good time to use a cleanse. I never did see where ash mentioned using any cleanses.

You’re not off to a good start, since his “8 – 20 seconds downtime” figure was apparently made up out of thin air.

The vuln is fine and does exactly what it needs to do.

coglin.1867:

I was asking a specific poster some specific questions, about a very specific fight and situation that they laid out.

Sorry if that confused you. I thought the fact that I quoted them specifically, and directed my questions to that posters situation made it pretty clear. But if you can set the record straight and answer those questions for him, please do.

Oh, it was quite clear. I will admit though that your own brand of mathcraft is eluding me. “8 – 20 seconds” downtime? (Boy, 12 seconds is quite the fudge factor). Where did you get this figure from?

One of the advantages of any kind of pressure Mesmer is that it doesn’t really live by burst cooldowns. This is thanks in large part to illusion activity cycles and nowhere will you see this carried out to its extreme ends than on an on-death or a phant-geared spec.

coglin.1867:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

An example. I just fought a condition Mesmer. At one point i had 8 stacks of confusion, 3 stacks of Torment, Poison, Wekaness, 7 stacks of Bleeding, Vul and Cripple. This is what i am talking about. The attacks i was hit with: Blurred Frenzy, iDuelist, Confusing Images, and a few auto attacks (according to “battle log”)

This is an example of cheap Condition builds. They require SO little actual skill. You win not because you are good but because you can easily spam conditions.

Wat makes it cheap? How does it require little skill? Would you have had all of those conditions on you had you dodges, blocked, or interrupted any of the skills that applied those conditions?

Are you suggesting he button mashed and burnt all of his condition applying skills? If so, did you cleanse them and pound on him as you now had 8ish-20ish seconds before he could do any more significant damage? Did you lose the fight?

I feel you need to answer the legitimate question I am asking to add context and legitimize your complaint. Otherwise your just blurting out random. broad complaints. Not to mention everything Drarnor Kunoram mentioned about how you causes some of it to yourself with your poor actions in play.

If you really think it would ever be possible for a Mesmer to have 20 seconds where he couldn’t do significant damage, I’d be more than happy to set the record straight, love.

The OP actually has a fair point and it’s one I’ve suggested elsewhere. Important passive effects from traits should have their own buff icons.

Pride.1734:

You know this was done so quickly for the tournament right?
Btw its no nerf it was a bug =_=
It applies to other classes and all NPC in general.

I’m sure that’s why they bothered to change Dhuumfire or the bugged Ranger elite before PAX, right?

S/D is stronger if anything, at least with the rune changes and the Signet revert.

Oh, what Atlavis is describing is definitely real, it also sometimes occurs with Blink. Very painful to deal with and the only cure so far I’ve found is to type /dance (not kidding).

I have no clue what other people were saying about me in any other thread, nor does it particularly bother me. I only post here to air out my thoughts on the game, which are hopefully backed up by my plenteous experience in playing it.

However, I don’t have much interest in replying to your rude and aggressive questions as you are clearly aggrieved and very quick to offend and so any dialogue will likely be fruitless. If you’d like me to clarify something I’ve said, there’s no harm in simply asking without the incessant personal attacks. Catch more flies with honey and all that, love.

lunyboy.8672:

shimmerless.4560:

While I can perhaps agree about this particular trait, it’s worth pointing out that Warrior is ironically nowhere near the worst offender for this kind of thing; that would be Engineer, by a considerable margin…

Quite a few of those are somewhat useless, or worse, are crowded out by must-have traits, especially for particular builds (of which engineers have relatively few). There is nothing approaching 8 seconds of stability anywhere on that list, but most folks who play engineer in a pvp setting would GLADLY trade you 5 of these for 8 seconds of automatic stability. Oh, and can we have some of those, what are they called again… Signets… we need some signets in this trade, too. You know, since we are such a passive class.

Personally I wouldn’t consider 10 seconds of fury and 30 [!] seconds of might and swiftness, an automatic three-second invulnerability plus stun-break or three seconds of protection on every disable useless, but that’s just me. (There’s even a fairly reliable chance to passively convert incoming fear into stability).

That said, the poster above me has the right of it. The point of the thread wasn’t really the merit or lack thereof when it comes to these traits, but rather how much of the game doesn’t demand any input from the player.

This hampers enjoyable play on two levels: on one, it narrows down and hurts the means for players to see smart decisions and good reactions, and two, it introduces a maze of disguised mechanics and “hidden knowledge” that fudges our ability to even make informed playing decisions to begin with.

As others have pointed out, you can never really know if a Warrior or a Ranger is going to be immune to your stun, or whether an Engineer is running condition immunity or not: you just have to make an informed guess based on the type of setup you’d expect to see. Some mild randomness can be fun and a way to showcase skill in dealing with unexpected situations, but too much randomness is ultimately frustrating and goes against the principles of competitive play the game should be aiming towards. Players should be able to rely on their character’s given abilities. Fortunately I think a very simple hotfix would be possible for this particular issue, which is to introduce special buff icons for these types of traits.

Certainly Last Stand is a perfect case in point (although at the very least it has a mild cost opportunity). But I think players are deeply deluding themselves if they believe this kind of mechanic is the exception rather than the rule, or that the Warrior class is the only offending case in practising it.

While I can perhaps agree about this particular trait, it’s worth pointing out that Warrior is ironically nowhere near the worst offender for this kind of thing; that would be Engineer, by a considerable margin:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvP-Professions-Playing-Themselves/first#post3498345

^ Worth taking a look.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Why would it be unlikely to be removed when every profession has at least one if not two skills that have a 100% chance to remove cripple+chill+immobilize. Beyond that, several traits offer the same removal added to skills you already use.

There’s only four classes that have guaranteed immobilize clears, and two of them are tied to specific weapons. It’s the same with chill and cripple. To say every profession has these is completely wrong, these skills are not common by any stretch.

Solori.6025:

K U T M.4539:

Solori.6025:

K U T M.4539:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Care to define and explain why it is “unskillful” play?

Why should immobilize be treated differently then any knock back, blow outs, daze, stun, cripple, and chill?

When they use hard cc on someone who’s already been hard cc’d, it overwrites it. When you immob someone who’s already been immob’d, it stacks.

Thank you for stating what has been mentioned already.

That still does not answer the question.

And I am still waiting on that list of spammable immobilizes outside of thief.

For example.
If I am in a 2 v 1 vs two burst thieves and one basalisk venoms me, then the other thief does the same thing when it wears off
Does basalisk venom become unskillful?
If I am chain dazed and stunned by two warriors, does stun become skill-less?

If I get shatter bursted by two mesmers
Does shatter become unskillfull?

If I get perma fear pingponged between two necromancer’s
Does fear become unskillfull?

Why are we even talking about 2 v 1 or 1 vs multiple anyway?

Spammable immobs:

Thief, ele, ranger, warrior, engineer.

The difference between those stun chains and the immob stacking is that they had to wait until the other persons cc was over to get the maximum effect. With immob stacking, you don’t have to wait.

you forgot mesmer, guardian,and necro.

You still havent provided me with a list of “spammable” immobilizes outside of what I provided with the thief.

Do you know what spammable means in the gaming world?

Naming classes that have access to an immobilize isn’t helping your case
Secondly
If a group of people chain immobilize you every one of their immobilizes can be removed with 1 condition clear vs if I am chained stunned unless I am one of the two classes that has easy access to stability, I am chained there unable to defend myself at all.
Can we use this argument for immobilize sure..difference being
When I am immobilized I can still dodge, evade, or use skills that give me the effects of to mitigate the damage I am receiving and letting me live those 5 seconds longer.

Also you haven’t addressed why chill and cripple are not any worse than immobilize

It is incredibly unlikely that you’ll remove an immob stack with just one clear, because (for whatever reason) it’s always the last thing removed. When you are constantly burning, bleeding, weakened and poisoned from the miasma of conditions thrown around it isn’t simple to just hone on one thing to cleanse away.

If I had to take a guess as to why on earth immobilize is last, it’s probably to balance things like the Guardian passive cleanse. Of course the best option would just be to change immobilize to only come last on passives, but that’s GW2 for you.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Oh, I am sorry. So now we are comparing a engineer in a very specific build, to a warrior who is untraited. What is your point? Where is the “dire” gear in your link, since they were crying dire gear? Talk about being behind the times, love.

Why would Dire make any difference to the damage per tick? I’m also not sure how it’s a “very specific build” considering you need 20 in Explosives for IP anyway. (With just an amulet, runes and 20 into that line IP is 3.6k in sPvP)

dancingmonkey.4902:

shimmerless.4560:

Powder is currently around 4.3k per tick in sPvP, in WvW you will hit 6k+ with consumables. Perhaps you’re a little behind the times, love.

Really, I was in PvP testing it just before I posted my last post. I was in rabid gear with 6 points in the line that adds condition damage. Also using the runes of balthazar. Damage is exactly 4,064.

But as the previous posters cried dire, I did the comparison in a WvW setting.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpPrlYxvLseRCbBNqxAqNIyNWlP3gAkUA-TpgMgAA7PQXGAA

dancingmonkey.4902:

For starters, in full ascended condition gear, IP only does 3400 damage. And that is assuming The auto attack crits. Which is only a 1 in 4 chance in the dire gear your also claiming they all use. that is 7,270 damage in 10s.

Powder is currently around 4.3k per tick in sPvP, in WvW you will hit 6k+ with consumables. Perhaps you’re a little behind the times, love.

I’m not sure what planet people are living on where these Elementalist traits are giving them issues, let alone being a day-to-day problem for them. A player who goes that far into the Earth line has to make real sacrifices for those traits and they’re hardly impossible to answer to.

A full rabid Necromancer made a thread just a few days ago complaining again about Diamond Skin, and he didn’t want to swap his elite (presumably Plague) for the golem because it would “compromise his build”. He’s unwilling to adapt a single utility to help against someone’s grandmaster trait. Does that seem reasonable to you? Because that’s what all the complaints sound like to me.

The “spamming” accusation probably comes from the fact that many of these immobilizes are passive and often unintentional. You can be held in place for 5+ seconds just from a Supply Crate turret and a Ranger’s unattended pet, for example. Throw in more pseudo-AoEs like Guardian and Warrior (traited) hammer and it just becomes a mess.

I wouldn’t like to see these skills themselves be changed, the Ranger pet’s immobilize is its thing and it shouldn’t be taken away. What has to go is either immobilize-stacking (which rewards poor timing) or a change in cleanse priority. It was already a powerful condition anyway and it didn’t need the extra help.

I agree with Taevion that if the illusion’s speed on Illusionary Leap isn’t made faster, then the cripple has to be stronger, because currently it is one of the most forgiving skills in the game to dodge and players can get the benefits of a full dodge frame even while immobilized because they happened to start just before the swap.

This would also help the depth of the skill since it would be stronger at baiting out premature dodges.

There was absolutely no reason to change the trait and it was tied to a lot of sacrifice on the Mesmer’s part (you cannot be and do everything). If players in this game aren’t able to cope with being locked out from their autoattacks or one or two skills for ten seconds then that’s truly sad.