In a sense Mesmer condition removal is almost too strong (on full mantras, you’ll never die to anything), however we are in the tragicomic position where this can both be true and still be useless because those specs are not tourney-viable.
I’ll say again that the best change they could possibly do for the class instead of fiddling with non-viable traits is to make Portal a class mechanic. A Mesmer with just one removal skill can get by pretty well.
You know – we had talked about that the other day and I agree. While some people will submit that the root cause would be online games, people, or our generation of gamers – I would disagree and submit the community size as the cause, along with everything else Steb said.
I came here from GW1 expecting another amazing community. IVEX and other guilds in GW1 felt like an actual team that was there to try, learn, and progress as players. The community had little discord (except for where a guild or two were concerned as the sole source of much aggression), players generally assisted each other in becoming better – even across different teams. Even at the top of the ladder, there was little, if any, BM.
Coming to the GW2 community was like going to McDonald’s instead of that really nice restaurant you love – just because they promised you good food.
I think it’s mostly the size (so small) and the tension and longing that the game is gonna see better days. Let’s be honest, we all log in every so often thinking for some silly reason that today’ll be when GW2 turns around and all that potential will finally begin to bear fruit. The game feels like being stuck at a bus terminal in a foreign country for seven hours. It doesn’t excuse anything don’t get me wrong, but it’s far from the healthiest environment especially for such a small community to stick in day in day out for too long.
This whole idea that Engineers aren’t popular in the competitive scene is some kind of ludicrous fantasy belonging only to the forum warriors. The class has been well-represented since just after the beta buffs and in fact the only reason Necromancers got Dhuumfire was that you couldn’t run a team-built Necro without an Engineer so they’d actually do some semblance of damage.
It is slightly less popular on EU than on NA but then (for example) there are a few competitive EU Rangers and none on NA so the door swings both ways really.
Engineers can’t deal with conditions and are very vulnerable to diversion (daze shatter). It’s also pretty simple to just bait out their two shield blocks and burst them afterwards. Staff/GS has a very favorable matchup against Engineers if it’s abused properly.
The poster is right in that it’s the most viable condition spec in sPvP. However, it has severe weaknesses and it simultaneously takes a lot of game/map knowledge to use correctly while not really teaching you a lot about how to play Mes. It’s better than stealth at least.
Pew pew has always been pretty annoying and overtuned in GW2 (Mesmer greatsword, Thief shortbow, Warrior longbow), it isn’t really surprising they keep going in that direction. It doesn’t help that basically none of them are skillshots.
There is a very simple change that would make life infinitely easier for Mesmers and it’s to make portal a class mechanic instead of a utility skill. Bam, now you have room for one cleanse.
Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
wat
Wahoo! Bye frands!
Portal -> goes on F5
Open utility slot means you can run Null Field or mantra or w/e instead.
I’m not really interested in whether it was a bug fix or not, I’m proposing it gets reversed.
I think people are getting confused about what I’m asking for. The newer swap I can take or leave it, it doesn’t really matter any more.
What I want changed back is the “bug fix” that now prevents swapping on clone death.
I think there is a point where we are being too tough on ourselves while others scamper away scot-free…..
I really just want my Mesmer back.Really? You must be the special profession that gets punished with 0 compensation because of forum Q.Q. Hard to think of another profession that has asked for rational changes towards themselves :/
I just want my thief left alone
You should re-read what I actually said if that’s what you took from it.
I don’t see how you can believe the Mesmer players are being kitten themselves when saying what they have is enough. I’ve read a lot of Mesmer feedback on the ileap change since the update and almost all of them are happy with the change even with the small bug relating to range. It finally connects reliably, its fluid, it works but there are still those few people who think they need to go further and revert the dead clone swap “nerf” because it isn’t fair.
There is a point where people are asking for too much and you’re there atm.
No, I’m not, you don’t really know what you’re talking about (nor does this forum represent all or even most Mesmer players). Any Mesmer at a high level will tell you sword wasn’t viable in teams before and got even worse with the “fix” regardless of the clone update. I’m more than happy to bring them in here to give their 2c if you like.
Pug/WvW/alt-character Mesmers may have wanted this oh so “fluid” change, but then those same Mesmers also wanted conditions on scepter auto, fixes to phantasmal haste and buffs to Mender’s Purity (to the point that it’s pretty insane right now) so maybe you should be careful whose company you keep.
Still doesn’t change the fact that you want to bend the rules on your clone mechanic so that you can ignore your surroundings and fire ileap off with no problems. You should be able to adapt to your surroundings especially with the teleports and stealth to place ileap appropriately rather than expecting it to face tank a bunch of zerkers and conditions. Such a change is not balanced and I highly doubt it would suddenly make sword that much more “viable”.
Like I said I don’t mean any offence but you don’t really know what you’re saying. I should point out that the change is a revert (it already worked this way for the majority of the game’s lifespan) and no one of any note had an issue with Illusionary Leap being too strong before. If swapping without a clone was such a big deal then frankly someone would’ve said so by now.
I think there is a point where we are being too tough on ourselves while others scamper away scot-free…..
I really just want my Mesmer back.Really? You must be the special profession that gets punished with 0 compensation because of forum Q.Q. Hard to think of another profession that has asked for rational changes towards themselves :/
I just want my thief left alone
You should re-read what I actually said if that’s what you took from it.
I don’t see how you can believe the Mesmer players are being kitten themselves when saying what they have is enough. I’ve read a lot of Mesmer feedback on the ileap change since the update and almost all of them are happy with the change even with the small bug relating to range. It finally connects reliably, its fluid, it works but there are still those few people who think they need to go further and revert the dead clone swap “nerf” because it isn’t fair.
There is a point where people are asking for too much and you’re there atm.
No, I’m not, you don’t really know what you’re talking about (nor does this forum represent all or even most Mesmer players). Any Mesmer at a high level will tell you sword wasn’t viable in teams before and got even worse with the “fix” regardless of the clone update. I’m more than happy to bring them in here to give their 2c if you like.
Pug/WvW/alt-character Mesmers may have wanted this oh so “fluid” change, but then those same Mesmers also wanted conditions on scepter auto, fixes to phantasmal haste and buffs to Mender’s Purity (to the point that it’s pretty insane right now) so maybe you should be careful whose company you keep.
Agree with Eurantien and WoC, Ranger is mechanically intensive on any spec if you’re looking to get optimal performance and mantras is just very involved full-stop.
I think there is a point where we are being too tough on ourselves while others scamper away scot-free…..
I really just want my Mesmer back.Really? You must be the special profession that gets punished with 0 compensation because of forum Q.Q. Hard to think of another profession that has asked for rational changes towards themselves :/
I just want my thief left alone
You should re-read what I actually said if that’s what you took from it.
It’s absolutely incredible to me that in the two years the game’s been out Rush is still the same skill that feels like something from a Korean MMO beta. I mean they haven’t even at least tried to fix it. It’s sad.
I don’t really get your self-masochism to be honest. You don’t see other mains offering themselves up on the pyre.
I may be a Shatter Mesmer main but I ultimately just want everything to be at least relatively fair for everyone. Nothing comes from me going around demanding buffs to my class and nerfs to builds that my main has trouble with.
I’ve always had a strong opinion on levels of risk vs reward. Although lots of builds in this game are low risk builds that are to strong for their output, I wouldn’t want my main to fall under the category. And if we can keep it up maybe we can use it as an example for other builds to follow.
The current I-leap is more tactical/technical than what we had before, but it’s a lot more useable as opposed to baiting a doge. Only “Unusable” part I find is when it just goes strait to cool when when I am clearly within range >>
I don’t want shatter Mes to lose its risk-reward either muffin, you can look at my post history to see that, but why stick our heads in the sand about it as well? Getting a reliable swap back is just reverting us to a spec that was already well-balanced for the most part before.
I think there is a point where we are being too tough on ourselves while others scamper away scot-free. I have even made suggestions to appease the newer/uninformed players by getting rid of the stun-break on swap in exchange for changing back the “bug fix”, I thought this would show I am not just interested in a free handout. I mean honestly on any other class this would be a priority #1 QoL change and yet you have Mesmers arguing we shouldn’t ask for too much too fast. Sword was not meta even in NA to begin with, this change has made it close to unusable against players who know how the class works.
I really just want my Mesmer back.
No I’m not “clearly misinformed” Coglinmonkey, I said over the course of the game they have been one of the most predominant runes. The only reason they’ve fallen out of favor with Engineers is that there are even more borked options available (Balth).
Well apparently ArenaNet did already feel that the rune had an outsized presence in PvP (tPvP + small scale is twice as many game modes as ZvZ btw) because they’ve already been “nerfed” unsuccessfully once.
The rune was (and is) abusive and saw great tPvP success, in fact it probably falls behind only Ogre in terms of its success over GW2’s history to date. Teldo used to run it on 3-kits/sidepoints (perfectly viable in WvW btw) and as I understand it is still meta on terrormancer which has been extremely strong since launch.
I didn’t say we should look at GW2 with a MOBA set of balance rules, you’re taking bits and pieces of what I actually said and just running off with scissors. I brought up the League example because it was a case where low-investment RNG had a bad impact on the state of the game, if you’d like I’ll gladly go back to STO (an MMO) and detail cases where the health of PvP was hurt terribly by similar mechanics
The notion that Nightmare will only interupt something worth interrupting once in a while is one of the worst arguments I’ve heard yet put forward in its favor, and GW2 is absolutely a game of escalating mistakes, what on earth are you talking about? Equally skilled players the ones who misuse abilities or fail to properly rate objectives more often will generally lose.
Like I said the rest just seems to be yourself going on a tangent but w/r/t the rune’s popularity it is not rare by any means and +175 damage and +15% duration is nothing to sneeze at anyway.
OK burst damage and hard CC are what win games, there are no runes other than maybe Air on a zerk amm which give massive burst damage output (there are sigils, though, and they’re both seen as a problem ATM) but there is a rune which tosses out hard CC, this CC can have any number of ridiculous effects in game and I must intone again this doesn’t require the wearer to actually do a kitten thing. To the poster who said this rune isn’t used competitively I want some of what he’s on, the rune was meta until the Balth buff (and is still better on a lot of specs than Balth)
If you look at a game like League where they take balance seriously you would never in a million years get a hard CC passive let alone a random one, hell they took out the 4% crit mastery because getting randomly chunked for half health and losing lane at level one wasn’t hot. Risk reward is a good basic principle, Nightmare runes don’t just ignore it they run over it back and forward with a dump truck.
Be careful what you wish for or ask for “Reverting Ileap” is a loaded revolver playing Russian roulette that got us the problem in the first place. Functionally it’s fine now. (aside from range bug)
That all being said as a Shatter mesmer main it sucks but it’s not like it’s game breaking… clearly it’s a nerf but it’s just slightly hard mode now and an excuse to point at for counter play without hurting our playstyle.
I think in terms of balance and keeping mesmers happy it’s best if I-leap is just left alone outside of it’s range properly being set to 600. (Please fix this soon A-net)
Gotta give something up for it but signet of illusions might be a consideration for you.
Although yeah pre patch feature pack 2 it was a harsh unjustified nerf when it was already a pain to set up a shatter.
I don’t really get your self-masochism to be honest. You don’t see other mains offering themselves up on the pyre with, “Well I’d like this change but it might be a bit much, we still need to offer counterplay, this is enough, let’s be happy”, run into any Ele/Thief/Nec/whatever thread and it’s all ArenaNet hates us for being too beautiful please give us more stuff thanks. I dunno what’s the point of being reasonable any more? Players in this game don’t want balance, they want their preferred character to be a special snowflake, I only knew one true multi-class player (GW1 vet) and he left a long time ago.
Functionally it isn’t fine, swap deactivating on clone death makes it terribly unreliable and it killed off one of the skill’s advantages which was swap mind games.
There happen to be many sides to this argument. It’s not simply a matter of “this rune is bad”. Almost all runes are bad, because they dominate the game. Rune of Nightmare is not unique in it’s functionality, and I do think that deserves equal attention.
Actually Nightmare runes are unique in the sense that they’re a random hard CC, the only other rune that comes close is Grove and most top players agree they’re poor design as well.
This line of argument that Nightmare should be ignored because there are other worse offenders just makes me think of a kid yelling that Johnny jumped off a cliff first. Yes we all know there are many many other problems with the game, that has no bearing on the fact that Nightmare is one of them.
I feel pretty bad for the OP because this is a good topic which needs dev attention and it’s just been overrun by the talk talk talk forum warriors.
A random fear proc is a hell of a lot more potent than random poison or passive crit chance, what planet do you live on? It’s a hard CC that can be traited by one class in particular to deal damage and last upwards of 4 seconds in sPvP (longer in WvW). That is an unreal effect considering the player wearing the runes does not need to do anything or have any input whatsoever. Fear is classed as an interrupt and it can put your heal, your BV, your Mass Invis etc on an interrupted cooldown for having the temerity to attack a player in a PvP game
The reason these forums blow chunks for feedback is that you have people scrabbling away at theorycrafting and giving all these just-so answers to things they’ve never actually played nor played against.
DPS Guard can be good in organized 2 v. 2/3 v. 3/5 v. 5s but I wouldn’t take it into solo queue unless you own the spec inside and out. Ideally it has to be built around because it can be uniquely strong but it also has weaknesses you can drive a truck through.
Yeah these runes need 100% to be removed, they’re actually worse than they used to be, if your build hinges on random hard CC then tough luck, won’t be sorry to see it go.
Similarly to how they need to remove traits such as defy pain and dogged March because they negate damage and soft CC without any action taken. How are you cherry picking what passive effects you are against? We have runes that create damage and poisons healing negation. On the other side we have things like healing signet and transmute, that negate damage and CC. Singling out specific passive aspects in itself, negates your own argument.
I’m not cherry picking anything, this thread is titled “Rune of Nightmare balance” and it is about Nightmare runes genius, and I’ve in fact said before that transmute is a horrible passive. I don’t really care what Coglin the unranked forums warrior thinks of my argument anyone else you talk to in this game who has a head on their shoulders will tell you fearlocking is lame and Nightmare runes are even lamer. They’ve been changed before because the devs acknowledged they were a problem and what they should’ve done is just removed them full stop because the design is whack at the core.
People can rant and rave about how IWAY was cheese and so on but here’s the crucial difference, folks, in GW1 balanced would always >>>>>>> all. Doesn’t matter if it was Fear Me sins or Lyssa’s Aura Me/Es abusing super fast water skills and blurred visions with no energy depletion, a balanced comp played properly would still win. Players who complain about cheese in GW1 are blaming anything other than themselves for their own defeat.
Not really the case at all in GW2, to be honest I don’t even know what balanced here would look like, most of the GW2 specs held up as exemplars of skill ceiling look like lame Factions-era gimmick stuff at best so I dunno.
Hello again all, Blissless here, I’m just here to ask again for the devs to revert the change to iLeap that disables the use of swap on clone death.
I have been a sword/staff Mesmer since I started the game, it’s the set that I love, it’s very possible I’ve logged more time on the set than any other Mesmer and I’ve stuck with sword through thick and thin, through the death of focus to sword #2 nerfs and so on. Nothing has managed to drive me away from sword other than this, this is the only change which has almost killed sword as a viable tool in combat, the recent update to iLeap/swap was appreciated but it is not nearly enough to offset how bad this change has been for sword
I do not think that there’s any balance argument to justify the “fix”, I am a cloth class using my only targeted gap closer to leap into melee range, that is more than you can say for Thief (med) or Guardian/Warrior (heavy) who do not suffer these limitations.
I beg of the devs to please change this skill back to the way it was, it is the only change that could drive me to shelve Mes for good. The clone is killed by almost anything (even with signet) and the leap will fail more often than not simply because of how much cleave and AoE is an integral part of GW2 combat.
- Blissless
Yeah these runes need 100% to be removed, they’re actually worse than they used to be, if your build hinges on random hard CC then tough luck, won’t be sorry to see it go.
5—Dodge while immob— This is just irritating, just fix it please.
How about yes if you somehow get hit by Mesmer sword #3 there is less reason than a sleep-deprived ketamine trip you should get to dodge as well.
Did I seriously just see a necromancer complain about engineers? People are still complaining about IP despite the nerfs + eng’s weak pistol auto? O.o
The only nerf that I read in here that I agree with is nerf celestial since it provides too many stats compared to the others.
There seem to be reasons why things like this get posted in the prof balance instead of the structured pvp section in general…
IP will always be horrible design no matter how much it makes up for any damage shortfall in other areas. Shock horror people don’t appreciate playing around a nuke that can proc on functionally anything.
no one knows how to play necro including you. nos’ condi build is still OP in 1v1’s and decent in team fights.
warrs probably got hit the hardest next to thief. shatter mesmer was also hit with the stealth nerf to mirror blade.
I’m inclined to agree with this to be honest… for whatever reason there’s very few people who realize how incredibly powerful a properly played (or properly abused) Necro is. It’s been that way since launch, well before Dhuumfire and the like.
2 statements with no reasoning or logical argument to back them up. What you did is the same as saying, “you don’t see <insert build here> in pvp because no one knows how to play them.” You didn’t state the strengths and weaknesses of the class and compare them. While I don’t think the class got nerfed that much this patch it is really depressing for necro players to still be asking for the same exact buffs 2+ years into the game when other classes have gotten at least some of the buffs they’ve asked for. That is why the necro community is viewing this patch very negatively, mesmers, rangers, engis, and eles all got buffs to unused utilities and traits, while necros build diversity got lowered due to the well of blood, flesh golem, and lich form nerf.
Fearlocking is incredibly strong, death shroud is strong, condition transfers and boon (namely stability) corruptions are super strong, not to mention Necro damage is through the roof. There’s nothing you can really nerf on Necro and have it matter because the kit is just fundamentally abusive in the right hands. I don’t know why players don’t see it but it’s the case, I can personally say I’m sure glad they don’t though.
as I clearly said, I will now say again for above persons: Condi necro isnt in a bad state, its top3 Condi but it isnt as good as PD Thief. What the problem is that Power Necro in smallscale, solo, or even to some degree in sPvP is a sitting duck… no1 fears what cant get away, he is always first target in any PvP situation for just that reason, if u dont agree u either lying or never played one…
I don’t even know where to begin with the part about condition Thieves and power Necro is much stronger than people give it credit for.
no one knows how to play necro including you. nos’ condi build is still OP in 1v1’s and decent in team fights.
warrs probably got hit the hardest next to thief. shatter mesmer was also hit with the stealth nerf to mirror blade.
I’m inclined to agree with this to be honest… for whatever reason there’s very few people who realize how incredibly powerful a properly played (or properly abused) Necro is. It’s been that way since launch, well before Dhuumfire and the like.
I agree with the OP although to be honest I watch buff trays like a hawk anyways.
It doesn’t change anything because setups that would generally lose to a bunker Mesmer will still lose regardless of what they do to scepter — this has been the case since before scepter #2 was even a condition proc. Not to mention this one in specific accomplishes absolutely nothing bar surviving (in WvW) as it has no sticking power and winning match-ups in /bow duels, and it isn’t that much worse or any more obnoxious than dozens of popular setups for other classes. No matter how you revamp the class there will be a setup that will consistently kill you regardless, that’s just how the game is.
I don’t get the feeling we’re on anywhere near similar wavelengths. If you think this Mesmer build is anything but top tier, and I mean the top of top tier in dueling, let’s duel. Hit me up, we will set up a meeting. No harm no foul. I just want you to see what I see.
I am well aware of its capabilities however it loses to numerous other Mesmer setups (meaning even if it gets changed people will just play something else anyway) and its survivability comes at the cost of having basically zero utility or mobility whatsoever.
It isn’t that different to any of its competitors, and in that field there’ll always be one spec that’s king. I have no clue why people get so wound up about it.
Mesmer with staff is a fantastically mobile class. If they decide to take PU, they’re even frequently under swiftness.
I think you’re overlooking and overplaying things very conveniently.
No I think you’re being hysterical, and Mesmer mobility is average with staff not fantastic by any means. But go ahead, please tell me what this spec accomplishes outside of rules duels, where people are going to complain about the next best thing anyway?
It doesn’t change anything because setups that would generally lose to a bunker Mesmer will still lose regardless of what they do to scepter — this has been the case since before scepter #2 was even a condition proc. Not to mention this one in specific accomplishes absolutely nothing bar surviving (in WvW) as it has no sticking power and winning match-ups in /bow duels, and it isn’t that much worse or any more obnoxious than dozens of popular setups for other classes. No matter how you revamp the class there will be a setup that will consistently kill you regardless, that’s just how the game is.
I don’t get the feeling we’re on anywhere near similar wavelengths. If you think this Mesmer build is anything but top tier, and I mean the top of top tier in dueling, let’s duel. Hit me up, we will set up a meeting. No harm no foul. I just want you to see what I see.
I am well aware of its capabilities however it loses to numerous other Mesmer setups (meaning even if it gets changed people will just play something else anyway) and its survivability comes at the cost of having basically zero utility or mobility whatsoever.
It isn’t that different to any of its competitors, and in that field there’ll always be one spec that’s king. I have no clue why people get so wound up about it.
It doesn’t change anything because setups that would generally lose to a bunker Mesmer will still lose regardless of what they do to scepter — this has been the case since before scepter #2 was even a condition proc. Not to mention this one in specific accomplishes absolutely nothing bar surviving (in WvW) as it has no sticking power and winning match-ups in /bow duels, and it isn’t that much worse or any more obnoxious than dozens of popular setups for other classes. No matter how you revamp the class there will be a setup that will consistently kill you regardless, that’s just how the game is.
The spec in question is older than the dinosaurs and it isn’t even the strongest belonging to Mesmer, let alone anything else. You sound like you need to get off the rag already.
What exactly are we supposed to be thanking them for? Fixing weapons that were broken? Weapons that are still weaker than they originally were?
That reasoning coupled with the initial advantage classes like Warriors, Rangers and Guardians have with newcomers might explain why Mesmers are so rare. We’re far from weak though, and well, not really the point of the thread. This isn’t about Mesmer or Thief or whatever at all. Except maybe Guardian, all classes can viably compare a condition and a power build, usually multiple.
In all such situations, the condition build falls apart outside of smallest-scale encounters, while power is useful across the board. There’s very little reason to play condition as a result, which also shows in the builds used.The only reason you don’t see more Mesmer and Thieves in sPvP is due to game type.
Go roam in WvW, at least 60% of what you run into will be Thieves. Then 35% is split between Mesmers and Engineers. That last 5% is the rest. (numbers are personal results). That should give you a good idea of the class disparity between the given professions in this game.
The only reason why power builds are used in WvW is for the blob action. As when you stack Guardians and Elementlists there are far to many condition cleanses between the two that you will not be killing anything with conditions. Your only hope is to try and out power their healing, which can be accomplished with 40+ people pressing 1 with power builds.
Why are Thieves and Mesmer not over represented in blobs? Thieves have no reliable way to cleave at range (while achieving respectable dps). Mesmers are plentiful in blobs but are sub-par compared to Elementlist DPS. Warriors are used solely for the CC they can provide. You might find a couple of power Necromancers as they are face roll easy when they have their Lich Form. Rangers are less common, because again Elementlist are the kings of AoE dps no question. Engineers are seen but again Elementlist. So forth and so on.
Thieves and Mesmers are the hands down best two professions for PvP. It is due to game types in Guild Wars 2 they don’t get more play. The minute a death match style is made in the form of 2v2 or 3v3 that is all there will be in those aside from the occasional death wish guy.
:On topic:
Power over conditions for blobs because of stackable cleanses. Elementalist, Guardian, or Warrior for blob due to group synergy (also the occasional Engineer). Solo play Mesmer, Thieves, or Engineer.
There are already regular 2 v. 2 tourneys and Mesmers aren’t that popular.
Another thing that’s always super bugged me (feel free to call me out on this) is that the death shroud bar on the party window has nothing to distinguish it from regular health. When you have a Nec teammate it’s often really hard to tell if they’re in a bad spot and need help or not.
There was nothing wrong with the original power block whatosever. The full trait as it was on release should be fully reinstated. If people honestly can’t deal with this trait I have no clue how they’d get on in legitimately competitive games.
Life force needs a huge QoL pass, it should have something like a set passive increase in our out of combat and the amount built up should be visible to enemy players as well. Maybe we’ll see it in 2018?
Thief is conceptually impossible to balance in capture points because of initiative and until the developers realize this any kind of trait tinkering or skill reworking is just polishing the brass on the Titanic.
Everyone ought to give this thread the attention it originally deserved:
http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/pvp/pvp/Thief-requires-serious-redesign/
After reading the first page, many players including a few thief players came up with the conclusion that the OP had no credibility. And I would agree with them specifically because people who have no problems with thieves should have already seen how thief isn’t as great as players make it out to be. So either he was lying about not having problems with them or it was aimless complaints for unnecessary nerfing.
Oh no Leeto is a good player. Played with and against him. And i think it´s true that he doesn´t have that much problems against thieves. And i understand his point of view. Thief is a really good decapper for undefended points. Thats his role.
There are classes that can decap and keep two players from the enemy team busy for a while.I guess I assumed wrong. However, something Leeto seemed to not consider is that the thief’s design forces the one on it to adjust to the new type of gameplay aswell. Usually the player who is more adjusted to that type of gameplay is usually the one to outplay the other.
It explains why people who never touched the thief get wrecked by them and those who do treat thieves as a snack. It also kind of makes sense because the typical archetype of the thief is that of a scumbag that doesn’t play by the rules. Perhaps that was the template the original team wanted the thief to portray?
I’m not coming at you on a personal level muffin, but I still think you’re not getting what he was trying to explain. What the Thief actually does in game is completely irrelevant: you still need someone at home, you still can’t rely on positioning, etc. Ever had someone who thinks he’s being clever by stealthing at mid all game? They do it because it doesn’t matter what they actually decide to end up doing, you still need to split back in the event they went to decap. On completely broken maps like Kyhlo it’s even worse because they can port back up the tower forcing your team into a worthless split. Portal head games and Engineer stealth aren’t even remotely in the same league because — drum roll — meaningful cooldowns.
Capture points is far more dull with Thief as a class than without them. The main reason you don’t see 3-point roaming strats and more lightweight, mobile setups is because it only takes one player on a certain class from the opposing team to contest and decap far all game and ruin any illusion of positioning in team fights. Nothing you can do about it bar splitting home and bringing your own Thief, therefore one out of eight classes is ubiquitous and home bunkers since GW2 launch.
Thief is conceptually impossible to balance in capture points because of initiative and until the developers realize this any kind of trait tinkering or skill reworking is just polishing the brass on the Titanic.
Everyone ought to give this thread the attention it originally deserved:
http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/pvp/pvp/Thief-requires-serious-redesign/
After reading the first page, many players including a few thief players came up with the conclusion that the OP had no credibility. And I would agree with them specifically because people who have no problems with thieves should have already seen how thief isn’t as great as players make it out to be. So either he was lying about not having problems with them or it was aimless complaints for unnecessary nerfing.
He didn’t say he had problems with Thieves. It isn’t that difficult to read what he said and comprehend the point he was making. The fact that some random forum posters think he has no credibility is amusing considering he’s the only one on said page who’s been consistently in the sPvP leaderboards for both solo and team queue and was a staple since long before the boards were even released.
No one had any answer other than a bunch of ad homs to his argument that Thief fundamentally changes capture points in a negative way. If you hate AFK home bunkers well, there’s a reason teams have to run them: begins with T- and ends with -ieves.
Playing an Asura by far.
Thief is conceptually impossible to balance in capture points because of initiative and until the developers realize this any kind of trait tinkering or skill reworking is just polishing the brass on the Titanic.
Everyone ought to give this thread the attention it originally deserved:
http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/pvp/pvp/Thief-requires-serious-redesign/
Whoever in their right mind is still playing WvW at this point is pretty much going to be part of the dregs that enjoy AFK/condition specs. If ANet had ever wanted to stop the bleeding that ship has long since sailed.
I don’t think the other immobilize/leaps are balanced at all muffin, that’s precisely my point. I’m just letting out a sigh because the Mesmer leap was the only one that was exquisitely designed and offered reasonable counterplay. I understand that a lot of players wanted this as a quick fix over waiting even more long cold years for a more comprehensive change, but it’s still a terrible shame.