Guild Wars 2

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Ok so I am heading out for the day and will be back later.

Meanwhile please keep the conversation going in regard to Sub Classes. I do appreciate that the initial reaction is to do a separate CDI on it, but I would like to see if we feel it could be part of a Horizontal Progression proposal at this stage or that we think it is currently not relevant and thus making it a topic for the future makes sense.

I am going to bump the phase post I did a few days ago as well to get some more opinions on the groups ‘Ones’.

Chris

Well, i am vocal against sub classes already. Simply because i do not think they are needed in the current progression system.

Sub classes in general are a great idea to differentiate already existing classes into more directed roles.
Best example for this would be your standard warrior choosing between the way of a two weapon fighting style for max offense, or a great shield for max defense.
These choices come with their own skills and equipment.

So it is basically a skill and design progression.

It is a great system, but for other games.

Guild Wars 2 already has something like this in place. It is called traits and skills.
The limited amount of trait points forces you to choose the abilities of your character.
You can never have all skills or traits at the same time.
You are already able to choose between different play styles in a class alone.

different aspects of sub classes
What other things do traditional sub classes bring to the table?

- A new layer to play with (aka the sub class itself)
While a clear distinction between classes between individual members of this particular group would be nice. i think it does not make much sense with the current system in place, beside saying: “ey, i am a berserker warrior, huah.” “who cares, i am a max def crusader, you wont get me down”

- Something new to aquire
Sub classes usually have to be unlocked. This usually is done by a class specific questline, in which the character earns the right or skills for this particular direction of his class.
Again, we are allready going this way. We have a diverse system already in place. If people are looking for new skills. We are already see signs of them coming into the game.

- New design:
A subclass usually comes with it`s own distinctive design to differentiate it from other players of the same class. (again, double weapon against shield for example in other games) Sometimes it is a particular art design, sometimes it completly changes how skills look, etc.
This again can be done with the current system.
Classes already have access to a wide variety of weapons and traits to go for different roles.
Classes already are able wear the armor they want (in the limit of the game mechanics of course) if we go from a visual appearance.
The visual appearance of skills is something that can be done several ways. We have weapons changing projectiles. So there could be certain traits actively changing the appearance of prominent skills. For example blade mastery for a warrior could make the effects more epic.
Putting more points into a trait, or finishing a line with 30 points could also create an effect.

Simply said. We do not have to put in sub classes to use their effects. splitting the existing system would just create more things to balance out.
Expanding and adjusting the already existing systems in game has the same effect as implementing sub classes into the game.

I love the system. i played some great with it. However, i do not think that the current GW2 does require such a progression structure.

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

VOLKON.1290:

Chrispy.5641:

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

Ah, very nice example of not pressing 1 to win! Thank you for supporting my argument.

Except that when I say “Press 1 to Win”, I also mean “Press the exact same keys that you did for the last two years to Win”. Those are the same thing in my book. I could care less if they are in yours. They both require the same pathetic amount of tactics and brain power in order to do, and if you are okay with that, hey, that’s your thing. For everyone else, We want more skills so that way we can actually expand on the ways we play the game instead of doing a mirror image of what we did last year and the year before.

Hey, I ran great sword/sword-focus on my mesmer for a long time, and still could be, but I decided to switch things up… redid the traits and now am giving staff/scepter-focus a go. It’s a completely different feel to combat now, and I’ve had to relearn what the skills to at depth, new synergies, new observations, etc. If you’re stagnant it’s by choice.

VOLKON.1290:

You don’t need to break combat to fix that, you need to grab the mobs by the throat, shake them around a few times until they pay attention, then teach them some new tricks such that “press 1 to win” will no longer apply in PvE.

If you just heard cheering as if from a great distance and in the direction of California…

That was me.

Chrispy.5641:

But if any Class is supposed to fill any role, whats the problem with Specialization for any profession to start with? If Anet does it right and actually balances things like that, why would you demand an Elementalist healer over a Guardian, or a Necromancer, or even a Warrior? Seems like a pointless argument to me.

The problem is that classes aren’t meant to fill any role, you’re meant to do your share of all the roles. We all do damage, control and support; we don’t choose to be a damage, control or support build only. Even the skills themselves show this often having multiple aspects tied to them. The problem with specialization is that you would start having the professions getting tied specifically to roles and begin to lose some of the combat dynamics that keep you thinking on your feet and observing the fights around you in order to choose the right skills at the right times for the best effects.

As a matter of fact… Chris, how about the possibility of new skills, when added, providing more nuance to them such that simply casting them when off cool down really isn’t the most efficient way to do so (such as most skills already are). I’d like to see skills have greater conditional effects, such as (as a quick example) casting skill “A” on an opponent causes damage and applies a condition or three, yet if you cast the skill on the opponent when he already has conditions you get added effects, such as a boon on yourself or the length of the existing conditions increased. Things that make you look at the depth of the skills more and get you to be more selective in using them. If I cast Chaos Storm, for example, on opponents when they’re knocked down perhaps it takes them longer to get back up or adds an extended confusion. Things of this nature.

I had the same problem until recently. I just bought a Logitech G600 gaming mouse. It has 12 buttons on the side that I have bound to my weapons and skills.

It also has a third mouse button used as a “shift” key so you can shift click those 12 buttons for a whole new set of binds … More than enough options for GW2.

It took me a few hours of playing to get used to it, but now the muscle memory is building the clicks all come naturally. My game has improved ten fold.

I’m not against it so much as feel it does not benefit the game or myself at this point in time.
Do people really feel this is the best way for developers to spend their time? tacking on another element to combat rather than developing an additional game system.
I’m not entirely certain how to express my concerns with it so I’ll put it into three questions.

1. How much new Gameplay content does this add? (That is, not repeating existing content with new skills as in completely new content.) it seems like however long it takes to unlock the subclass and that is it.

2. What new goals does it add for the short,mid and longterm?

3. How does it progress player A from player B, in achievement they both have a subclass? (i.e I could have a Radiant helm the other player has a hellfire helm but we are both equal in terms of achievement.)

4. Is it fun? (subjective I know but I’d get far more enjoyment messing around in a house than having to rejig my skills to get an effective combination.)

Thief is most hated in WvW for being ‘OP’. It’s more or less the strongest 1v1 class in a WvW 1v1 roaming context… and herein lies the problem.

People don’t generally cry about a class when it’s a 5v5 fight and one side loses. They don’t know which player was the one that decided the game, or if it was the overall team effort that did. They don’t cry about guardians in a 80 man zerg, they cry about the zerg numbers.

So when people must complain about something, it will be in a 1v1 context. And since that’s where the thief’s abilities are best applied… the result is obvious.

===

Ranger is most hated in PvE because of two problems.

1. The average ranger player is incompetent at being a ranger.
2. The average non-ranger player is incompetent at being a ranger.

Therefore, the overall perception is that the class is underpowered, which is made worse by the generally bad skill level of its players. This is extremely misleading.

Rangers are built, class-mechanic wise, to deal both condition and direct damage simultaneously. They are not built to specialise in one or another. The average player is not capable of thinking in both direct and condition terms at the same time. The most effective damage-based builds must run Rampager or Carrion. And the number of builds that follow this rule in existence is single digit, and they are all not in the current ranger meta.

A properly specced damage ranger has 5000 damage per second before the effects of might, and is played like a thief, without stealth, with a pet. It outdamages all other builds except a particular dps-focused mesmer variety, but does almost the same damage as that at a much higher potential range. The disadvantage is that to achieve this it uses max bleed and poison under ~ 1500 condition damage conditions, so you can have only one of this kind of ranger or a necro in a party. The moment you have two, things start to become far less efficient since only one of them will have their damage properly registered.

The support ranger is also feasible, of which one of the builds is in the current ranger meta. Spirits are used liberally in this, and the ranger’s job in this context is to buff others and keep others alive. However, this build is pointless in the overly easy PvE backdrop, and only really comes into its element in WvW.

If compared to a necro in terms of overall dps against a single target, the ranger is greater. If compared to a necro in terms of overall survivability, the ranger is greater. If compared to a necro in terms of overall dps against very large numbers of targets, the necro is greater.

In summary, the ranger class is hated in PvE because people don’t know how to use it.

===

The most hated in sPvP is the ele, for two reasons again.

1. It’s the hardest class in the game to play by a wide margin. Most of its users suck at it.
2. It’s very badly balanced for sPvP as the class revolves around booning and AoE damage. In an environment where boons can be easily removed or even stolen, this role is invalidated. In an environment where people don’t ever bunch up, AoE is weakened. Builds that do not boon do not play to the class’s niche, and therefore are weak. A non-boon damage based FA elementalist will never match a warrior of equal skill, because the class was not originally designed with that in mind. An AoE elementalist generally never hits enough targets to be worth the party’s while.

Now, OP, do you want to be hated in WvW, PvE or sPvP?

I just do open world PvE content. The levels come without even thinking about it. I go to the current map I’m mapping, do Hearts/skill points/POIs/Vistas, complete any events I come across, harvest every single node etc.

I have 5 level 80 characters now, and they all reached level 80 in the 15 – 25 level maps. If anything, I thought levelling was TOO fast!

Morrigan.2809:

zenleto.6179:

Curby.4897:

OMG I want to slap a baby over and over rather then level another alt… Lol if anyone out there does this for fun then what are you doing to level.. Me and my friends just cannot do it.

I only level through open world pve. I like it.

I don’t fancy slapping a baby over and over, though.

I also level through open world PvE- I am leveling my 6th character now- well I have another one sitting at level 42 but she is an Ele and I just get fed up with her after playing for 30 min.

What I do is pick a map that I like and just roam through it gathering everything in sight unlocking everything, running any DE’s that look interesting, climbing some stuff and poking my head in some holes that look promising- mopping up the hearts that are left over after that.

It goes very quickly and I always have fun seeing what I can do and not do on a character- I have had some really epic, unexpected battles and also met quite a few nice people like that

Yep, all that. I’m constantly running into areas and wondering if I’ve ever seen them before or if they’ve changed something. Its why I play these games.

And like Zaxares I find it can be too fast. I have to level a few up concurrently just to think I’m slowing them down. One of my guildies thinks that would still be too fast!

Because there is NO loot in Orr. I’d rather go anywhere else in Tyria. Only in Orr do i kill 20 mobs and get nothing. Oh look, on mob #21 i got a porous bone. yaaaayyyy! It’s the most boring and frustrating zone on the entire map.

I feel like actual meaningful discussion on horizontal progression is being rail-roaded by ‘sub class’ discussion.

I’m not saying that sub classes don’t provide interesting and thought provoking discussion, just that in the grand scheme of things and those things which are likely to be considered and acted upon; they’re probably not up there.

Additionally, we can discuss the pros and cons of sub classes all day every day, but unless people are making actual proposals on how the system would work, it’s all just theory.

….

Could we have a profession/class development CDI at some point to appease the sub-class enthusiasts?

Can I ask a dev to Stickie this thread? I find this thread amazingly helpful when looking for new and creative ways to mix armor.

Curby.4897:

OMG I want to slap a baby over and over rather then level another alt… Lol if anyone out there does this for fun then what are you doing to level.. Me and my friends just cannot do it.

I only level through open world pve. I like it.

I don’t fancy slapping a baby over and over, though.

As for the difficulty idk other that you’re getting access to a fair amount of traits that can really make a huge difference as well as skills and equipment stat options get better around mid-level. As for why you seem to be leveling faster/easier as you progress to the mid-level zones is because you are. GW2 has a system in place of ‘Bonus XP’ where mobs give an XP bonus based on how long they’ve stayed alive in the world. In the lower level zones there are many players running around killing things so few creatures give this bonus but as you progress to the higher level zones, the population quickly dwindles allowing mobs to build up their maximum amount of bonus xp which is roughly an EXTRA 150% increase in xp. This essentially cuts your leveling time by more than half. The fact that as you level, you get access to better skills, traits, runes, and sigils will make a big difference also because you’re much more likely to have a much more synergetic build by that point where your skills work much more efficiently with each other as well synergies with your pet also. This may not be precisely what is going on but I think it’s very plausible so I hope it helps.

Awe… don’t push me… I’m not all that bad…

UrsVieru.8504:

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned, so I’m sorry if I’m repeating anyone else’s point.

I think the general problem with subclasses is that they’re redundant in the Guild Wars system, specifically, they don’t contribute much in a game with limited skillbar. The purpose with subclasses, in the games that have them, is to limit the number of skills that a player can use together. But we already have this; and what subclasses would do is that they’d only limit the number of viable builds. Now this could have the side-effect of making the game easier to balance, but only when the number of skills vastly grows; I don’t think we’re anywhere near this point.

So my suggestion in this regard is to simply keep adding skills, at least while we’re still short of 100-200/class. At that point, additional build limiting mechanisms may become important, but one could also instead discuss additional balancing mechanisms in general (such as additional resource management).

That’s only if you focus on Subclasses solely for the purpose of adding new skills. If you make subclases in a way that doesn’t lock players out of anything specific while still offering a greater level of specialization, it could work very well in the current system.

I’m not against the idea of Sub-classes completely, I just feel that this isn’t the topic for it. I’d hate to see housing taking a backseat to this. As such I will be arguing against it in this thread.

In my eyes Horizontal progression is put bluntly about showing off, In my 1000 hours I have accomplished all this, this challenge you were unable to do, that Item you did’nt manage to get, this rare drop. It’s differentiation by adding enough challenges that no one person completes everything but each player has completed a unique set of challenges.

1. I still do not see what game-play this will add? I now have a subclass, what time investment will this take? it seems quite low at the moment or possibly like an instant gain on level 80? a new fighting style isn’t new game-play,I’m not going to replay all I’ve doen just because I have some new skills, I’m not playing an MMO for its combat.

2. I play a jack of trades Elementalist (and a mage of some form in every game I’ve ever played where it’s possible), Will the addition of subclasses prevent me doing this? I tank, CC and DPS all at once as every character was designed to do in this game. Will I now have to change my skills every time I switch from dungeon to open world, to fractal to Wvw ? I’ll ignore Pvp for that part.

3. All right you now have a subclass….along with everyone else, how have we progressed? gaining the subclass was not an achievement, it did’nt make you stand out from anyone else. Where is the Reward for your efforts?

4. It fails the is it Horizontal test suggested on the first page, any subclass added will have to change the way you play in combat in some form leading to either increased or decreased efficiency in your combat. i.e you kill the plains worm faster or slower.

I realize I’m coming across as very argumentative but I do honestly feel housing adds several times the Gameplay and objectives to the game. In addition it would be optional to those who for some reason really hate the idea.

I almost feel left out of the party. My ideas seem to hit right where the discussion is going, but I don’t see anyone picking up on it.

I agree with the notion that more permanent sub-classes might not be the best fit, and since we already have our skill and trait system, we should expand on that more. What I envision, is using sub-classes as a way to introduce more specific traits and skills into professions, allowing them to either: A) fully adopt every “sub-class A” effect to become “sub-class A”, pick and choose portions of their class that they like, and expand on that, or C) combine random bits and pieces to make whatever feel they want.

Examples: A) I want to be a Deception mesmer. Maybe Deception mesmers are all about stealth and clones, so I take all the Deception traits and add/replace weapon and utility skills with Deception versions, further expanding upon the current possibilities of stealth and clones in game.

B) I like Guardian Symbols. I decide to pick and choose traits and skills from all of my sub classes that affect Symbols, and I can now cast symbols from Scepter (doesn’t currently have a symbol), a utility skill, and they’re longer lasting, are fire field instead of light, and inflict cripple. I’m no longer a Guardian with symbols, but a Symbol Guardian

C) I want to run my ranger in WvW, and I want to be a frontliner, so I’ll need a lot of survivability, some Crowd Control, etc. I’ll look through my unlocked traits and skills and pull together what I’ll need to survive and help my squad/guild. I’m not so focused on a class mechanic, as much as a general feel.

This way, you’re just changing some parts of your current skills or traits to fit more in line with what you want to do. Maybe you really like the feel of the scepter skills, but would kill to have a stun on it. Now you can. Or maybe, Auras are really hard to use often and put on allies; now you can do it better. Think that Engineer using Hip Shot is just like any other rifle engineer? Nope, Chuck Testa his rifle shots actually have a chance to convert boons to conditions, synergizing with Modified Ammunition.

As for obtaining these sub-class “things”, I feel going out into the world and finding trainers, completing small mini-dungeons, a small instanced quest thingy, or something would allow access to start working toward the skill, which could be gained by either XP (leveling like character creation, but at a different pace), or using skill points.

(even if you respond just to tell me to shut up, I’d appreciate knowing someone was affected enough to respond)

BlackCabs, it certainly comes down to personal preference. I don’t want to have to fight to keep what’s mine, when it comes to player housing. I don’t even want to have to pay rent. Bottom line, I don’t want what I’ve built to decay just because I step away to do other things for a while. That being said, your proposal sounds like an interesting addition to the game so long as it’s not the only way to have a customizable personal space.

Chris, I do feel that subclassing is its own discussion. I’m not worrying about balance issues because I’m no theorycrafter and anyway I seem to always build the weakest possible character in MMOs and tabletops because I go for what looks fun. What does concern me is that it seems nearly impossible to add on specialized builds that don’t involve alterations in the power balance in some shape or form, which takes it out of this thread’s focus on more interesting things to do and see and shifts it to game mechanic alteration.

I just have this unsubstantiated belief/hope, that if you had five people with a well thought out, balanced build, go head-to-head against a DPS-first type build, given equal skill that the balanced will steamroll anyone anytime. Granted I have no proof of this. This is what GW1 taught me

The main principle of the combat is:
- Everyone can heal/support (role 1)
- Everyone can deal damage (role 2)
- Everyone can tank (role 3)

And this is the issue with your argument. These aren’t the main principles at all, if I’m understanding you correctly – that is, you’re saying that players can choose between tank, healer or DPS on every profession.

Firstly, ANet got rid of dedicated healers and roles dedicated to keeping aggro. Following that line of thought, shouldn’t that tell you that you shouldn’t be trying to play a dedicated support / damage / control?

Secondly, healing is only a small form of supporting others, and yet this is the only part you focus on. You even go as far as to expect a dedicated healer (which doesn’t exist, remember?) to be able to do a decent amount of healing to the point where it counteracts damage. In the post where ANet said why they got rid of dedicated healers, they said because they want a more proactive form of support (popping Protection just before a big hit), and less reactive (healing after the big hit).

Thirdly, there are no ‘tanks’ in that sense. There never was meant to be, as evidenced by the lack of aggro control abilities. Toughness is not meant to make you a juggernaut that can make you take hits while a dedicated support character focuses on keeping you alive. It’s more of a safety blanket than an iron shield. That’s the only purpose of such high-scaling defensive stats; when you’re the focus of the enemy. As for defensive abilities, such as blocking, they can actually be used to help team members, since you can intercept projectiles.

The actual principle is that, while in the flow of combat, you can have a character that is full on damage, or a hybrid that can move with the flows of battle when needed (going from damage to control, for example). Not having every profession fit into dedicated roles before you’ve even gone into the dungeon.

As for taking care of yourself, for the PvE side, maybe, but for PvP, especially WvW,I disagree.

However, this isn’t the same as me saying there aren’t flaws. I just feel what you’re stating as flaws aren’t actually inherently flaws.

Firstly, there are some mechanics that need improvement:

• Defiant – Needs to be changed so control is viable, but doesn’t allow for players to simply stunlock. Maybe have it not trigger if you interrupt, or have it decay over time.
• Conditions – Not so much an issue in dungeons with an organised group as in the open-world, and too effective in PvP.
• Boss attacks – more frequent, smaller hits, less big, one-shots.

Secondly, speaking from a PvE aspect, I don’t think it’s so much the fault as letting players build dedicated roles, as encounter design doesn’t utilise the depth that is there.

For example, we have control, boons, condition removal, conditions, damage, fields, traits to strengthen these aspects and so on.

However, most encounters a) either focus on damage or b) have mechanics that can be brute-forced through sheer damage.

The CoF effigy fight, in my eyes, is a good example.

You have 2 roles: destroying crystals and damaging the boss. Even if they’re more focused on the damage end, it’s still two roles (that is, your purpose in a fight). You still rely on the player to do their role properly.

However, one of them mechanics (destroying crystals) can simply be ignored through sheer damage (eased along with an unhealthy dose of Poison).

Now, say we tweaked this mechanic so:

• Alongside the (boosted) regen, the crystals also provide stacking damage + condition reduction.
• Destroying crystals applies a stacking DoT and Vulnerability to the player
• Bigger crystals occasionally spawn, that if the Effigy consumes it, it gains a barrier.

So, instead of just the damage aspect, we also have:

• Control – Stopping the effigy from going by the big crystal.
• Awareness of party members – knowing when to swap.

Then, for players to fully utilise their toolset, have encounters with a variety of mechanics. Maybe the boss before applies Burning and Bleeding frequently, meaning Condition Removal is needed.

TL:DR – Combat can be greatly improved by a) having a variety of mechanics, making players consider what skills to take and b) building roles into the fights with mechanics that can’t be brute-forced.

Your concept of how the combat system works is flawed:

“The combat system, while Anet tried to make something revolutionary, away from the trinity, is simply broken.

The main principle of the combat is:
– Everyone can heal/support (role 1)
– Everyone can deal damage (role 2)
– Everyone can tank (role 3)"

Wrong, but it’s an easy fix. Just add “simultaneously” to the above comment and you’ll find the combat is working as intended.

“- Expansion incoming?
- Better than that!”

“- Woah you guys you’ve blown it way out of proportion!”

That guy seems very stupid to me…

What about sexy grinding? I kinda like that…

Game grinding, much less so, but I didn’t feel like I “grinded” to level 80… it took like 2 weeks. I didn’t feel like I had to grind enough for basic exotics…. I just sold the mats I gathered during level up. I never felt like I needed to grind achievements, I just set goals and played the game. I never fall asleep in group events or dungeons due to tank and spank, heal and repeat.

That being said, endgame PvE is kind of a mess and requires too much gold grinding to keep up with crafting and skin aquisition, but I’m told that I shouldn’t care what I look like anyways unless I"m willing to do whatever is necessary to be pretty. aaaaand that’s where the sexy grinding kicks in…

Pretty much because of this.

Just to be clear, I’m just joking here. No hard feelings

Sweepstakes? What sweepstakes?

I Really Hate the idea of sub-classes.

I also think that most of their strengths could be harvested to build a better system of tutorials that clarify the concepts of role and ensure players have a good starting point for a variety of gameplay modes.

But.

I’ve often found its a poor process to discard an idea until you’ve really tried to make it work… personally. So here is my stab at Sub-classes that I think would dodge or mitigate most of their worst consequences.

Sub-classes are presented as a new type of Grandmaster Trait. These traits are labeled A, B, C, D, etc. for each profession (as opposed to the Roman numerals used for ‘normal’ Traits). They are unlocked by some mildly time consuming gameplay process that is really the LEAST important thing about deciding to introduce them at all. Trainers, unlocked through achievements, quest line, gem store… finding ways to make players pass the time is a separate concern from the abilities about to be unleashed on the playing field.

Once earned, a Subclass trait can be selected as a grandmaster trait through any of the 5 Trait lines. Even if you have 30 points in two separate lines, you may still only select a lettered Sub-class trait once. This one-&-only-one quality is of critical importance, allowing the traits to have sweeping effects without fear of conflicts between them. By allowing them to be selected from any line you preserve the greatest variety of pathways to this system, and try to give players latitude in their buildcraft.

Assured that a character will only ever have one of these traits at a time, the Developers are freed up to be more daring – not in overall power, but in the reach and breadth of the changes equipping the trait triggers. Complex packages of new effects, substitutions, and the occasional drawback. Vertical creep is one of several insidious and destructive problems looming over the whole concept, so the scrutiny directed at these Traits will have to be extreme. But as a bare minimum we know a person migrating into a sub-class has given up the flexibility and potency of picking a grandmaster trait as a down payment on what the package offers.

Weapon choice as it stands now comes close to creating the distinctiveness often sought for Sub-classes. A mace/shield guardian is a thing quite apart from a greatsword guardian or a scepter/focus guardian. Sub-class Traits could use existing weapon choices for the profession, but replacing some or all of their skill-buttons with new attacks as a powerful tool for creating unique gameplay without blocking a more general plan to increase the range of weapons available to each profession. Working from the model of engineer kits, these new skills could have slightly above-average performance, representing the major part of the contribution to effectiveness you would expect from any grandmaster Trait. Or they could be meticulously held on par with current weapon skills and the advantages delivered through passive effects or modified class mechanics.

I would also consider the option of Sub-Class traits imposing a fixed, locked, and absolute Elite skill while the Trait is equipped. While this could just be a hard association with an existing skill (e.g. a spirit-based Ranger sub-class that locks in Spirit of Nature as your Elite Skill), or it could be a new Elite skill unique to that Sub-class. Either way it uses an existing element of character power as the way to deliver FLAVOR rather than POWER.

Most sub-class concepts simply try to mask vertical progression or excuse it with the time taken to acquire it. When I hear the phrase “real progression” touted as one of their virtues, I shudder. My experiences with how full-on boring some dungeons have become now that my mains are running around with 6/6 ascended trinkets and an ascended weapon (much less armor…) makes me extremely concerned about allowing more power creep into the game in any form. But I think the above could provide a template for tightly-themed horizontal diversification.

I still think that a more daring approach to Trait design in general could net most of those benefits with less peril, but if I HAD TO design “sub-classes” for the game, I’d start with these sorts of trade-offs from within the existing framework.

Leo Paul.1659:

The fact that you’ve only been playing the game for 2 months makes it reasonable why you do not understand the OP. I suggest you read it again.

I don’t need to read it again. Every forum of every MMO is filled with complaints from people who play insane amounts of time and get bored of the game, but rather than recognizing that maybe they should take a break and try something else, claim that there’s something wrong with the game.

I find these threads laughable. I’ve been playing the game for over 2 months and have spent at most 2 hours in that time grinding anything (a few champions for a monthly). Still have a ton of stuff to explore and do and expect there’s plenty to keep me busy for at least a year, not counting new stuff that gets added.

Grinding is self-imposed. It’s always the people obsessed with optional gear who then convince themselves that grinding that gear is mandatory and then complain that the game is grindy.

Also, sometimes people just outgrow a game and need to go play a different one.