Guild Wars 2

It is a L2P issue…. A bunk rev can be 1v1ed and killed. I hear a lot of complaining, that you can’t just use the same old tactics for a new type of enemy.

Rating gains/losses are not conspiring against you:

If you are rated 1650, both teams are average 1500, yes, you will lose in the ballpark of 18 rating. Higher rated players are supposed to exert more influence over the match, and if they don’t, they are adjusted to lose a little more rating.

If you lose more than 15, either your personal rating, or your team average rating is higher than the enemies.

The higher your rating the more likely you are to be > enemy’s team rating and lose more, it’s a countermeasure against climbing rating too fast.

Saiyan.1704:

Yes.. nerf them… nerf all of them!

I appreciate your honesty. No sugarcoating , just straight to the point. Even if I disagree with you I respect that.

Warrior must be nerfed because too many people cannot into kiting.

BurrTheKing.8571:

it would probably make more sense to just remove the trait entirely, then adjust weapon CDs to compensate.

Which will not happen.

When it comes to Warrior balancing, Anet always chose the easier hustle free route.

jadaniel.4910:

ANet will never make FH baseline. No reason to. I don’t see what people would run if it was baseline anyway. Exactly what they have now except with a free trait slot to pick something else. It isn’t FH that’s limiting builds for warriors it’s the meta. If you want to blame something blame meta not FH. Baselining FH doesn’t solve the problem of build variety.

It can’t be the meta if the vast majority of warriors have been slotting the trait in all modes, across all metas, since game launch.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I used to disagree with FH being baseline for warrior, but now after playing it a lot more, I have come around and it definitely suits the class as a baseline.

+1

lol

It only took you 2 years.

Omcrazy.4756:

CrashTheGrey.1492:

Alatar.7364:

I have never addressed or responded to posts about how Anet targets people to bring them down, because when someone actually thinks/ believes that, then there is absolutely no chance to reason with such person.

I completely agree with the Scenarios and Opinions that you have stated, but truth is that this is a purely Human factor and it is never ever going to change because people are of many personalities and characters, even the most curious thoughts are to be found amongst us.
Funny is that I have seen tons of posts where OP/ people actually blamed Anet for toxic people as well. This alone is a proof that anything is possible with human mind, thus there will forever be toxic people same as people willing to help out.

Toxic people exist in any competitive game in large amounts…. However.

ArenaNets multiple failures to properly balance and support PvP content has arrived at a much smaller pool of players to be matched with. Match quality has suffered because of this smaller pool of players and this does plenty to really bring out the toxicity.

ArenaNet’s power creeping, the ESL drop… Consistently this company has caused people to discount PvP as an absolute joke. It doesn’t stand up to other titles. In addition to simple toxicity, there is a giant sense of apathy.

I’ve seen this mentioned before. That GW2’s pvp doesn’t match up well against other similar games. I’ve played a lot of MMOs over the years What pvp is actually better? I’ve seen mention of some being better mechanically like maybe BDO (never played) but from what I’ve heard its extremely p2w so…

Partially just asking so I have some ideas for what MMOs to check out with friends. We tend to pvp exclusively.

From my perspective GW2 is pretty reasonably balanced and has a pretty high skill ceiling. Yes, top top ranked teams might gravitate to certain classes more than others. That’s how any game goes with different classes, its impossible to perfectly balance everything. But it seems a lot better than other popular MMOs I’ve played like FF14 and WoW. Most classes are fairly well represented (except Revenant).

Yeah, BDO quite easily has the best combat out of any current gen MMO, however the game is a complete cash grab, and I would highly suggest people steer clear of it. GW2 balance is pretty middle of the road; there are some builds that are crazy strong, others that are extremely weak, and everything in between. The skill cap in GW2 is decent as well, but a bad player with a good build can outperform a good player with a bad build, so take that with a grain of salt.

The biggest issue I have with matchmaking is that we end up matched with players from every rank. I’m Plat 1 and had a match where there was a Legend duo on the other team, and a Silver player on mine. Granted, it was during off-hours, but the rank gap should never be that large. I understand it’s to cut down on queue times, but I would rather wait longer to have a more balanced game. As it is, I would say only 20% of my games are even matches. The rest are blowouts on one side or the other (blowout being 500 to <300).

Another issue with matchmaking is the MMR gain and loss is based off the likelihood of you winning or losing a match (based on the average team MMR), but it doesn’t take into account blowouts, afkers, trolls, ragers, etc. While no system can account for this, because the MMR gain/loss varies based on whether you were “more likely” to win or lose, you have matches where you win and gain 10 points, and matches where you lose and lose 20 points. Because of this, it makes maintaining your rank quite difficult, even with a 50% winrate.

The MMR system in itself is also quite flawed. I’ve ran into Gold players that still didn’t know that as a thief they should go home and focus on decapping, Plat players that chased around the map instead of fighting on point, etc.

Not to mention all the trolls, afkers, ragers, flamers, etc. that go unpunished. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people flaming/raging in game, I’ve reported, then I see them doing the same thing the very next game. Obviously reports aren’t instantaneous, but if it’s consistent behavior for that particular person, they definitely shouldn’t still be playing ranked.

Lastly, because the only game mode we have is conquest (stronghold is a meme), it incentivizes cheesey builds such as the recently popular Ventari Rev that allows you to 1vX on point for extended periods of time.

After 5 years the only real thing that has changed with sPvP is adding rankings, and that took them 3 years to implement. We don’t have CTF, or DM, or even KOTH, all of which are fairly standard arena-type game modes. sPvP, along with WvW, feels abandoned by the devs, despite the fact that quite a few people really enjoy these game modes but don’t play them because of these many issues.

Alatar.7364:

I have never addressed or responded to posts about how Anet targets people to bring them down, because when someone actually thinks/ believes that, then there is absolutely no chance to reason with such person.

I completely agree with the Scenarios and Opinions that you have stated, but truth is that this is a purely Human factor and it is never ever going to change because people are of many personalities and characters, even the most curious thoughts are to be found amongst us.
Funny is that I have seen tons of posts where OP/ people actually blamed Anet for toxic people as well. This alone is a proof that anything is possible with human mind, thus there will forever be toxic people same as people willing to help out.

Toxic people exist in any competitive game in large amounts…. However.

ArenaNets multiple failures to properly balance and support PvP content has arrived at a much smaller pool of players to be matched with. Match quality has suffered because of this smaller pool of players and this does plenty to really bring out the toxicity.

ArenaNet’s power creeping, the ESL drop… Consistently this company has caused people to discount PvP as an absolute joke. It doesn’t stand up to other titles. In addition to simple toxicity, there is a giant sense of apathy.

I have never addressed or responded to posts about how Anet targets people to bring them down, because when someone actually thinks/ believes that, then there is absolutely no chance to reason with such person.

I completely agree with the Scenarios and Opinions that you have stated, but truth is that this is a purely Human factor and it is never ever going to change because people are of many personalities and characters, even the most curious thoughts are to be found amongst us.
Funny is that I have seen tons of posts where OP/ people actually blamed Anet for toxic people as well. This alone is a proof that anything is possible with human mind, thus there will forever be toxic people same as people willing to help out.

Captain Obvious.6951:

So while spamming one button may take less skill than having to hit 2 or 3 buttons like an Engi, it’s how the class was designed. Don’t fault me for playing a character as it was designed to be played.

I main thief in pvp. The only skill I “spam” is auto attack, which for dagger/pistol is pretty much the best damage you can deal. Heartseeker is “better” but blowing initiative for top damage is a waste of a ton of utility.

No, spamming exactly one skill isn’t how it is “meant” to be played. That is such an asinine declaration for a profession mechanic that is all about using skills tactically.

So once again I’m back to my point of not liking skills in a PvP game that force me to not attack. What am I supposed to do… run off for 5-10 seconds and ‘wait it out’? Do you realize how dumb that sounds? 5-10 seconds of not being able to attack someone can be the difference in living or dying, winning and losing a fight or a pvp match.

You’re a thief and you’ve spent this entire topic talking about guardian’s access to retaliation over anything else. Sure, others get access to retaliation, but apparently not enough to merit your attention.

Do you realize what Guardian’s position in the pecking order is? They are the hard counter to thief. DH even goes a step further on that.

You are legitimately complaining about a boon that only damages your skill-less playstyle, specifically.

Retaliation is punishing fast attacking heroes, but is all but useless against slow hard hitting ones. Do you realize how dumb THAT sounds?

It’s called combat design. Squirtle beats Charmander, Charmander beats Bulbasaur, Bulbasaur beats Squirtle.

Retaliation beats multi-hitters and quickness, Burst beats Retaliation, Aegis beats Burst, multi-hitters and quickness beat Aegis.

Captain Obvious.6951:

And of all these options all of them only last a couple of seconds, and none of them can even come close to doing an entire life bar of damage back to the enemy player.

One skill on one profession in the game is capable of this. Okay, three on one profession counting your shortbow point. Everyone else has cooldowns, and the fact that you pretend initiative isn’t instead a fancy kind of global cooldown doesn’t change the fact that you’re dying to a boon designed to counter your playstyle.

But putting a boon on and standing still while the enemy kills them self isn’t reactionary at all. In fact it’s just the opposite of that. It’s not reactionary at all. You just press a button, get a boon on, and now what… a player is forced to run off and ‘wait it out’? I mean cmon listen to yourself.

The entire alternative is the enemy dies to your Unload spam. Yes, as others said, you should be playing like a thief. You’re not a duelist, Thief is all about ganking, outmaneuvering, and robbing people of their numbers advantage. If there’s one enemy you can’t kill, that’s supposed to be your team’s job to deal with.

Firing off auto attacks into a crowd on a point and using skill 2 to drop cluster bombs into the crowd I’ve almost killed myself doing that as well.

This still isn’t your role. Yeah, cluster bomb can be a good utility for that purpose sometimes, but as clearly demonstrated, the circumstances must be right. The best thing you could do in the team fight is to put one enemy in down state and then book it to the next point. And if they have retaliation? Do something about the retaliation or just move on.

Again what am I supposed to do against some bunker guardians and engi’s with retaliation on? GO RUN AWAY AND WAIT IT OUT? Letting them control the point and win the game? That isn’t reactionary game play at all.

Guardians/DHs are your hard counter. Do not engage.
Engineers have really good sustain. +1 someone else on an engie or do not engage.

By the way? Most engineers will have reflect on their toolbelt. P/P and SB are 100% susceptible to reflect. Between that, Retaliation, and a bunch of other horrible things, Engie may as well be a soft counter to your specific weaponset.

Sometimes your reactions need to be about the big picture.

Stop running pistol/pistol.

This post seems massively trollish and should be deleted in everyone’s opinion.

Captain Obvious.6951:

6 unloads in 4.5 seconds

I agree with a couple people above me – pressing 3 a whole bunch may be a demonstration of just about the least amount of skill imaginable.

You want to stay on topic? Alright – no, I don’t think retaliation needs to be scaled down/nerfed. Why? Because Retaliation here is doing exactly what it should be doing – that is, it’s punishing spammy gameplay, and is an active, direct counter to the specific kind of move that lasts longer than a dodge roll.

You used Unload 6 times, so let’s break down the poor choices(before we even touch on pistol/pistol being a really terrible weapon set):

-The enemy has Retaliation.
-You fired off Unload #1. Mistake 1, as you shouldn’t have done this knowing the damage at stake. (IF Retaliation was put up reactively, I can let this slide.)
-Seeing the retaliation damage, you did not choose to break the skill or disengage, so you took full Retaliation damage. Mistake 2.
-The enemy still has Retaliation.
-You fired off Unload #2. Mistake 3, as by now you should have been VERY aware Retaliation was in play.
-Repeat 4 more times for a total of 12 mistakes.

The fact that this game has dodge rolls should tip you off that this is a reaction-based game, and that doesn’t just hold true for incoming attacks. If your outgoing attacks are a poor choice, the onus is on you to cancel them or have a contingency.

Here’s what I suggest, even though you’re keen to ignore advice in this thread:
1. Have Stow Weapon on a convenient hotkey. If you’re using WASD like I do, I find Z to be sufficient. If retaliation goes up during your burst, you want to hit Stow Weapon and disengage(get away) from the enemy asap, especially if you’re running zerk – which you are, since you have no HP.
2. Consider marauder or even valkyrie(assuming these are both still in pvp, i haven’t looked lately) amulet until you have the basic skill necessary to actually deal with Retaliation. If you think that they’re bad because they’re not meta, then consider that the meta doesn’t have problems with retaliation.
3. If you must use pistol/pistol, worry less about how much damage you can do in 4.5 seconds, and instead focus on how to bait the enemy’s defensive cooldowns out. As a thief – no matter what weapon – initiative is practically your blood. Run out of initiative and you will be missing a lot of your survivability.
4. And even still, consider the area around you. Sometimes it’s enough to simply bring an enemy down to half health and force them to disengage in order to swing a teamfight. If the enemy is smart, they’ll realize that if they’re at half health and you stop spamming, then your initiative is building back up for the next volley. This may get them to LoS you, but there’s only a few classes that can continue to pressure you from safety(mesmers and rangers come to mind).

And finally,

5. Don’t use pistol/pistol. As demonstrated, it’s comically easy to counter, between retaliation, reflects, line of sight, long blocks, invulnerability…

PvP is not a dps race. Sometimes the best weapon is a little slower.

Captain Obvious.6951:

Sifu.9745:

Jesus, guys! Can’t you see he’s just mistaken Retaliation with Reflection?

So we’re all on the same page, I took a screenshot.

http://imgur.com/a/aJqWc

Unload attacks 8 hits in 1.5 seconds.

With quickness on, that’s 50% faster, .75 seconds.

8 hits x 247 = 1,976 damage retaliated in .75 seconds

6 unloads in 4.5 seconds, 6×1976 = 11,856 damage returned in 4.5 seconds.

So I was exaggerating just a little bit.

First I only have about 11k health in PvP.

Second, it takes 4.5 seconds to kill myself when someone has retaliation on, not 3 seconds.

I mean kitten me all to hell right? It wasn’t 3 seconds, it was 4.5 seconds. GOD FORBID I was off by 1.5 seconds.

So the fact still remains. Do you really think it’s fair that someone sitting still DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, JUST SITTING THERE, can return 11,856 damage back to their attacker with JUST retaliation on?

Personally, and maybe I’m just flippin crazy here, I think that’s an absolute joke.

This is why I said………. the skill needs some kind of damage return cap or something on it. But at the same time maybe balance the skill out so it’s better against slow attacking players and monsters too.

Thus why I suggested maybe the skill should just return 15% of damage, to a max of like 2k or 3k damage or something to that effect. Or make it so it does something like remove 1s of duration for every 1k damage returned. Just something other than the guy standing still getting healed and healing himself, returning almost 12,000 damage back to one player… that’s not even counting any hits from other players.

do you really think that someone press 3 will do about 29k dmg in 4.5 sec?

Roarshack.4902:

Omcrazy.4756:

Roarshack.4902:

Omcrazy.4756:

lighter.2708:

Roarshack.4902:

I have had the exact same experience over the last two days. I was 1663 and ive dropped almost a hundred points due to being matched with low rank players. I have to win two for ever loss.

Sly.9518:

The loss and gain of rating solely based on your personal rating vs the Average rating of the opposing team.

if it is true, you are teamed with low rating people and your team gets dominated because overall out skilled and yet you are still losing more then 15 points each match, seems wrong to me

I don’t disagree with the idea of taking the entire team’s average into account when determining how many points are gained or lost. But I can’t say I know how they do it one way or another.

I will say one thing though, be careful just assuming your losses are due to being matched with lower ranked players. Yes, some might be. But why assume its only your team? Who is to say your wins haven’t been against teams with lower ranked players? Whose to say your losses where you have a low skill player the enemy team doesn’t also and they just did a better job hiding that fact?

Arrogant to assume your successes are due to your own prowess but your losses are due to something outside your control.

My success is due to working with team who know what to do vs losing with team with no sense of how to win or work together.

Suggestion: If your team doesn’t know what tactics to do to handle the match maybe try to explain using reasonable language. Be a leader. And early in the match when there is still a chance to turn things around.

And maybe your success is due to your enemy being a team with no sense of how to win or work together and your losses are due to an enemy team that know what to do. That’s my point. Always assuming your wins are entirely due to your efforts or your teams is arrogant. Just as often as you are getting garbage teammates your opponents are likely as well.

Lord knows when I see the enemy trickling into mid one at a time vs 3 of us I don’t think my win is because I am superman.

All your doing is discrediting my ability as a player. I know what good players look like and bad players. No amount of direction help if your team doesnt know how to rotate or what points to ignore, or simply not looking at their map

Not trying to discredit your play itself. Although I do get tired of the mentality that anything good is because you did good and anything bad is because somehow the world has it out for you. Do you not see how that’s a little egotistical?

But you are wrong about giving direction not helping. If you can do it in a constructive way it should help more often than not. No, it won’t make that thief suddenly start winning his 1v1s or that squishy guard stop exploding at mid. But it might help if you suggest the thief runs away when he sees someone bunkering on the point. He might think he is helping by occupying the enemy (I’ve seen people say this) when he is actually just feeding them.

I am not saying that trying to give direction will suddenly start winning every match. But 90% of the matches I play the most communication you see is “thief home rest mid” at the beginning of a match and then flame and toxicity if the game goes poorly. In 150+ matches this season I cannot think of a single time where someone has suggested something without having to add something insulting to it. Most of the time its just silence.

Well this thread has been informative.

From reading it, so far I’ve found that if I play female chars then it’s because of feminine aspects of my personality and if I play male chars is because of masculine aspects of my personality.

What this all means that a female playing female chars I’m expressing female personality traits. But I’m spending my time staring at female butts, so… I’m expressing male sexuality? I’m exhibiting latent lesbian traits? But if I play male chars, while I’m now being sexual normative by staring at male butts I’m expressing masculine personality traits.

Hmmmm.

Nowhere in all this contradictory mess am I allowed to play which gender I want based on nothing more than aesthetics.

To all the deep psycho analysis some have made I say, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (that is, you’re looking too deep into a shallow choice).

Fallesafe.5932:

Yea, I agree OP. You can’t enjoy the game or become immersed in it unless you identify on a fairly deep level with your character. Guys who play female characters are just feminine men in RL (which is fine I guess).

Gotta disagree with you there. My identity is not bound to my gender, so playing a male or female toon doesn’t make me any more or less immersed. I just prefer to play female toons because I like their voices and appearance more.

Additionally, if I wanted to make a generalization about guys who play male characters… are you interested in men? That’s the kind of generalization you’re making.

Years ago a friend of mine said these words

“Well, if i have to play a game and watching my character’s kitten then i prefer to watch a female one”.

Well, i do agree though i play also male characters.

That’s always been pretty much my feeling on the matter. I’ve heard some people call men “gay” for playing female characters in games… but who exactly is staring at men’s butts all day?

Fallesafe.5932:

Simple… the unconventional races correspond to particular aspects of temperament and personality. Asura appeals to people who idealize intelligence or humor. Sylvari appeals to people with a naturalistic and/or aesthetic ideal. And Charr appeal to people who idealize/admire strength and the projection of power.

So wait…

• Four ears
• A tail
• Fur
• Very large and sharp canines
• Claws
• Walking on all fours
• Talking like you smoked 6 packs of cigarettes

Those are easy to identify with… but some boobs and makeup aren’t?

Fallesafe.5932:

Selecting a character is a very personal process. And men who play female characters are responding to feminine aspects in their nature. Don’t be afraid to admit it.

Actually, it’s relatively impersonal to me. I like looking at women’s butts, so I play female characters.

Why do you like looking at men’s butts?

Fallesafe.5932:

You can’t enjoy the game or become immersed in it unless you identify on a fairly deep level with your character.

Maybe you can’t, but this doesn’t go for everyone. And while I know this is an old, old argument, I’ve never seen anyone actually answer this to my satisfaction: How the heck are you able to more easily identify with an Asura, a Charr or a Sylvari than the opposite gender?

Guys who play female characters are just feminine men in RL (which is fine I guess).

/snort
Sure.

A number of my good friends play female characters. And they’re great people who I enjoy hanging out with.

Good lord, this is only a hair’s breadth from the old friend argument certain people make.

But they absolutely have a lot of feminine qualities.

Or maybe you’re focusing more on the feminine qualities everyone has because they’re comfortable playing female characters in games and you think they therefore have to have these qualities. Or you’re projecting qualities onto them for the same reason.

The fact of the matter is that some people identify more with their characters than others, and if those same people don’t feel comfortable identifying with the opposite gender, we get threads like these. It’s important to remember that people are different from one another and that the conclusions of any one of us about why others do what they do are worthless because none of us has made a study of this.

Personally, I’ve been playing tabletop roleplaying games since my early teens and video games since before that. When I play CRPGs, I tend not to invest that much into characters, because to me no game can ever come close to what a real P&P RPG can let me experience. Computers just aren’t very good DMs. Thus, I have absolutely no problem playing whatever looks best to me. In GW2 this means female humans and Sylvari, and male Norn, Asura and Charr.

Zenith.7301:

drcraig.9403:

OriOri.8724:

drcraig.9403:

ButterPeanut.9746 I expect you’re correct on both counts. At this point with almost 90 views I got exactly what I expected. No replies other than yours. Goes to show, nobody is treated as poorly as the Warrior.

You’re kidding right?

Well no, I’m not. The fact that you offered absolutely nothing to refute my claim speaks volumes. Thanks for your complete lack of substance. Please take the last word, I’ve already wasted enough time on you.

The class that’s king of raids, a backbone of WvW frontlines and strongest roamers, and has had seasons of total dominance in spvp.

Treated poorly by devs. God, you are adorable.

I wish my revenant or necromancer were treated as “poorly” as your warrior is.

backbone of wvw frontline? warrior? that’s like 2014, at the moment warrior is completely useless in frontline zerg and has been that way for a long time now
king of raids is elementalist
rev has more pvp meta time since it’s introduction then warrior will ever have since gw2 release

It is a little telling that warrior is now a class where the elite specialization is considerably worse than the core builds. Berserker is incredibly underpowered compared to the other elite builds for other classes. It did need an adjustment:nerf and got one. At that point the build was no longer great but decent. Inexplicably though anet nerfed it again and now it’s close to unplayable against decent competition.

SolarDragon.7063:

Amaimon.7823:

Loop.8106:

Amaimon.7823:

CrashTheGrey.1492:

Amaimon.7823:

drcraig.9403:

OriOri.8724:

drcraig.9403:

ButterPeanut.9746 I expect you’re correct on both counts. At this point with almost 90 views I got exactly what I expected. No replies other than yours. Goes to show, nobody is treated as poorly as the Warrior.

You’re kidding right?

Well no, I’m not. The fact that you offered absolutely nothing to refute my claim speaks volumes. Thanks for your complete lack of substance. Please take the last word, I’ve already wasted enough time on you.

“I made an argument so vague that you can only say ‘what?’. And now that you said that I can say you can’t refute my claims. I win”

Would have been 10/10 roast if you added a tips fedora at the end.

I main warrior. ArenaNet has been massively incompetent over the years in so many areas/classes, and for long periods of time, warrior has been very strong/too strong. Ori doesn’t need to make an argument because the overwhelming inaccuracy of “nobody is treated as poorly as warrior” is hilarious.

Warrior is certainly in a horrid spot, but come on, ArenaNet treats most classes with complete ineptitude at random. I think the real hilarious bit is how awful warrior was already before that berserker nerf.

If we come across a guardian, they have a stability upkeep of 100%, occassionally with blocks, we dead.

Last time I checked, the guardian had access to 4 seconds of stability every 55 seconds. or 8 seconds every 87 seconds with renewed focus.
If we come across a warrior and he hits bulls charge, we dead.

Guardian drops his traps, then thethers the warrior, then spawns a circle of shields, all the while being able to continue his stream of dps, IF a warrior survives all that, then we can fire a headbutt yes or bulls charge, yes (although I prefer Stomp)

I seem to remember this thing called endure pain… now stop whining.

Ah yes, endure pain. Yet another nerf to the warrior class. Personally I think it was the right the thing to do, but I disagree with how it was reworked. I think the utility should have remained the same, but they could have changed the trait to offer protection + some swiftness instead of invuln. Either way, 2 seconds still comes in handy against cheese builds like the one described above.

messiah.1908:

13k dmg under 3 sec

retal hit in pvp about 240 per hit
which means 54 hits
which means 18 hits per sec

what the hell you use to do 18 hits per sec?

unload is 8 in 1.75 sec which means 4.5 per sec.

so i think you mistaken and probably you also took direct dmg

in fact retal dmg should be higher in pvp like pve. the classes which have access to retal are guard, rev (retribution), bit warrior, bit mesmer,

I am pretty sure, he has been a victim of Reflect (projectile reflection), there is no other explanation. Reflect is the main killer to unload thieves.

13k dmg under 3 sec

retal hit in pvp about 240 per hit
which means 54 hits
which means 18 hits per sec

what the hell you use to do 18 hits per sec?

unload is 8 in 1.75 sec which means 4.5 per sec.

so i think you mistaken and probably you also took direct dmg

in fact retal dmg should be higher in pvp like pve. the classes which have access to retal are guard, rev (retribution), bit warrior, bit mesmer,

Its simple. If you can down players with your damage there’s no reason to worry about retaliation.

Retaliation at best can do 250 per hit and quite frankly even auto-attack can top that. Most class have around 13-20k health so I don’t see how you can’t kill them when landed 6 unloads. We can talk about other skills if you want, but the result will always be that the damage you inflicted is more than the damage you receive from retaliation.

Regarding your “without doing anything” theory…only guard has reliable access to retaliation, maybe even engi if his lucky with condition conversion. Guard has more block than retaliation so you should be worry about things other than killing yourself. And rarely rev traits for retribution nowadays.

Back before ANet completely broke that trait, I tried retaliation build on guard when you can convert it to scale with condi. You get 350 per hit and I still hardly find anyone clueless enough to be killed by it. If you really want to talk about when retaliation was OP, that’s 4 years ago with Pyro’s Immortal Mesmer build. Back then retaliation from iDefender will proc when mesmer take damage, and both mes and iDefender has retaliation. This allows opponent to take 2 procs per hit on mesmer (roughly 550 per hit). That build was butchered soon after and leave a bunch of useless traits for mesmer.

Captain Obvious.6951:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Retaliation is a two way thing. If you can’t deal enough damage to nearly down the player with 3 unloads, then its time to change strategy…

I have nothing against unload, but its a range attack that can ramp up a lot of damage if you land it. And provided that you get retaliation it means they actually landed.

First, you’re changing the subject. We’re not here to talk about how much damage you can deal with unload. Besides I’ve dealt over 48k damage with unload to one Guardian and NOT EVEN DOWNED HIM.

Second, I find it completely absurd that someone can deal 12k damage back to you with 6 unloads on them, without them even pressing a single button or doing anything. Just standing still doing absolutely nothing.

So if you don’t find that a bit over the top stupid strong I don’t know what else I can say.

I honestly dont think its stupid strong. Just use a harder hitting move that doesnt hit 8x in quick succession and suddenly that amount of damage is cut to a fraction.

Retaliation is a two way thing. If you can’t deal enough damage to nearly down the player with 3 unloads, then its time to change strategy…

I have nothing against unload, but its a range attack that can ramp up a lot of damage if you land it. And provided that you get retaliation it means they actually landed.

So since the meta right now is to complain about ventari, I’m gonna take this opportunity to make suggestions on how to make it a better healer.

Ventari rev: in general i think the problem this spec has with beingg a healer is that it has no sustained healing. Only healing in burst which is no good in pvp. But ventari rev has a much bigger issue that the entire rev profession suffers from: no way to regain energy and no way to create real synergy between the stances.

1. i think that in order to give ventari better sustained healing, it needs two things. one is to make the staff auto heal up to 3 allies near the rev. no more orb drops. just make it so every staff hit heals up to 3 allies for 600-800 with 1k healing power. Next make it so ventari’s will leaves behind a light field where it crosses that pulses the healing (base is 800 according to wiki) rather than when the tablet passes over someone. this avoids the overly complicated mechanic of having to spam the heal skill over and over to obtain any semblance of sustain which is too clunky. have the tablet leave a field where it passes that pulses healing. i am not set on the duration of the healing field and i leave that to the devs. i believe that being able to put down healing fields of 800hp/s plus an auto attack that heals nearby allies for 600-800 will fix the sustain healing issue.

2. revs need mechanics that allow energy gain rather than solely relying on changing legends or auto attacking. my suggestion is to make it so every minor in every trait line offers a specific mechanic in which energy can be gained. they should all have reasonable icds. For example, make ventari minor that gives back energy on ally rez. shiro minor that gives back energy on enemy kill, etc.

3. if you switch from ventari to any other legend you cease to be a healer. this is a problem because sometimes you need to change legends for energy. there should be an effect that triggers every time you switch from one legend to the next that allows you to maintain its mechanics. if you change from ventari to any other legend, you should produce an aoe field centered on you that pulses 1k-2k healing and alacrity for about 5-10 seconds duration. similarly:
a. switching from shiro: 100% crit chance for 5-10 sec
b. switching from jalis: pulsing aoe stability for 5-10 sec
c. switching from mallyx: all attacks apply confusion and torment for 5-10 sec.
d. switching from glint: extend duration of ally boons around you by 5-10 seconds
e. switching from kalla: all attacks you make apply bleed and burning for 5-10 seconds, allies around you gain alacrity for 5 seconds
d. switching from ventari: pulse healing to allies around you for 1k-2k and alacrity for 5-10 seconds.

4. remove knockback from energy expulsion. keep the orbs. give aoe invulnerability for 3 seconds. raise energy cost and raise cd. consider removing the effect that causes it to deplete all energy if a prohibitive energy/cost change is made to compensate.

revenant pushing back inside the meta with its kb. with good team coordination it works wonder.

scourge will be a point bunker and semi support. its cleanse are slow and a few. more boon removal and barriers provider and great resser.

firebrand can be healer support. low heal output but more dmg mitigation throughout aegis spamm.

ele will have hard time i guess with no stability and spellbreaker with a necro pushing them hard.

sum it up: druid will stay the same, ele the same, maybe few ventari, and scourge

Lmfao healers.
I’ve grown used to the fact Anet despises anything that doesn’t pump out damage.
Support? What’s that?
We had more people QQ about healer classes than the ridiculous damage classes, and now y’all wanna QQ saying there needs to be new meta healers?
Nope, PVP people on the forums are like the crazy ex:
One minute they are crying in your arms saying they need you, but the next they are trying to slice your tires of your car.

Inb4 magi’s gets taken out of the game for some strange reason and all there is left is mender’s.

Funny because it used to work that if you missed with a Burst skill it wouldn’t consume adrenaline and the skill would only go on a 5(?)s Cooldown. So back when they designed everything this analysis actually holds up and warrior was only limited to resource and time.