Guild Wars 2

I think there are many generalizations, but from my own experience there are certainly reasons why people can get very frustrated— it’s where they toss their frustration on. When things go south, fingers get pointed, and oftentimes the echo chamber is going to find someone outside of the circle to blame. When your attack fails because 12 pugs sit around with 96 supply and nothing builds. When people run up to the lord’s room to run up and tag the lord, endangering the entire group, it’s very hard to really have sympathy if say, I suggest to throw them to the wolves.

And to be honest, if you’re being dead weight, then you have to reconsider why you are here. However, it’s not just the pugs. It’s also bad habits and other things from even so called veteran hardcore players.

But unfortunately, that leaves collateral damage. Once, I got angry at someone for placing a trebuchet against a wall, because I thought we were being trolled without thinking that they didn’t know any better within even considering the possibility that they could just be new.

To add on to matters, the overall state of WvW has caused increased stress to anyone that still takes it seriously for whatever reason, and thus the patience gets lower and lower to the point where people can only turn to people they trust.

Consider what a pugmander might have to deal with:

• People not cooperating with tag, not on coms.
• Backseat Driving, especially by zerglings
• People not knowing what to do, and then getting upset when things go wrong
• People fairweathering/are only here for the ride
• Terrible info/misleading scouting. “inc” for lone enemies, etc.
• In addition to the above:
  “X is under attack”
  “How many, and who?
  /silence for 10 minutes
  “HURRY UP CAP CIRCLE IS UP”
  /10 seconds later
  “#$%$#^$! go karma train and whatever!”
• Or, redirecting a zerg to stop 1 person from taking a camp.
• People demanding you tag despite the fact you might want to take the break. Don’t do it? The map becomes unqueued.

On our server, there’s a not so unsubstantiated sentiment that pugs have been spoiled rotten by some very good commanders and simply won’t learn how to fend for themselves. In any case, it’s quite a disaster on reset night now due to this degradation of the situation with pugs and more organized folks. Though to be fair, this may apply to the game in general, as zerg content ensues that the skill required to function in this game is very low and one can hide behind a zerg and pretend to be good. Then you remember people complaining about HoT maps….

Consider what a Guild Group might have to deal with:

• Getting ordered around just because you are on the map when you may have your own agenda.
• People that think you’re violating their game mode.
• Random people following you, and imposing whatever.
• Being blamed or targeted when you decide to take it easy.
• On my server… wait, never mind.

Now, on the other hand, consider what a pug might have to deal with,

• Being told to get off siege if they don’t have the right mastery, so they learn to never do it if so…. and then comes the time when nobody uses the siege at all. Cue rage.
• /insert bashing because of class.
• Being called out for a mistake in a rude fashion, often by people that really aren’t that much better. Especially juicy when I note them having to be ress’d 5 times every fight.
• Commanders thinking you are psychic and then berating you when yes, your backline is CC’d and you knowingly jumped in there alone. Not a problem for cool bros like me that pop renewed focus and then talk about how I outlast the entire zerg… wait whoops.
• Commanders not realizing you’re omnipotent. So, mesmers only got 3 utility slots and yes that veil has a really long cooldown. Also, yes it’s possible for water to be on cooldown.
• Being called a PvE’r. Is like people are too insecure they’re not considered epshots that they have to find pve’rs to belittle.
• On the off chance someone wants to get better, they get belittled and mocked if they ask a “stupid question”
• On my server, pugs have the extra challenge of being demanded to be on coms only to find out that either the info isn’t given or the channels are empty anyways.

In any case, it’s very easy to get narcissistic and ignore the people that have helped you without you knowing it. Yea, it’s easy to mock that dude refreshing siege and sitting on that cannon for 5 hours straight, but maybe without ‘em you’d be in tier tumbleweed by now. In the end, people just need to realize everyone has their own agenda and dreams, and work accordingly— at the very least tolerate people that aren’t in your echo chamber.

Swagger.1459:

ArchonWing.9480:

Pffttt, and I already got 8/9 specializations the hard way.

Granted, it will still be tedious grinding them in WvW, but at least you won’t have to leave WvW it. In PvE you could unlock the whole thing in a few hours, much less if you have any degree of social skills or click LFG while (non-EOTM) WvW would take 10-20 hours depending on what you do.

In practice this benefits mostly people who usually WvW, PvP’ers that don’t pve at all but sometimes go into wvw, or people that really hate the new maps. For anyone else, it’s still the same basically.

For my future Rev and for anyone else that still needs elite specs, that is a good thing.

Will also be great for future elite specializations so save them.

Bet you a dollar any new specialization gets locked behind a new currency

To the people that say we could close all the other forms of WvW and just do EotM.

You know, we could. And it would be the Stuff of Legend.

Every WvW Fight Guild, and anyone and everyone who is just looking to kill, will suddenly arrive in EotM, ready to slaughter indiscriminately anyone not of their team, taking I would imagine heightened levels of glee to crush under their boot any Quasi-PvE player, Up-tick, or Anyone Looking to K-Train. The bodies would litter the fields like rivers across the map.

All the Bunker and Turtle players would Siege up the Fortifications to insane levels, the likes that people that only played EotM have never seen, nor could even fathom could exist.

8 Tiers of some some of the hardest hardcore core WvW players will suddenly move to EotM, filled with vitriol and embitterment, looking to make sure that every up-level, or quasi-pve player pays a dear price for their lost beloved ‘real’ WvW experience.

The hate and salt would be so thick we would be able to repair walls with it.

Oh I would vote for that change, just to see pure pandemonium that would cause.

I have seen many comments in recent threads about people being pugs and I find myself getting irritated. Been playing for about 2 1/2 years-mainly in WVW. I have joined guilds but have quit for different reasons i.e. Too much time on Deserted BL ( which puts me to sleep), GVG-I like open field fights but GVG IMHO doesn’t help the status of the server, & forced pve which isn’t really my thing. Some guilds I might join are different time zones which my being a member would not really aid the guild. I do use TS when running with a tag and I don’t squirrel. Being displaced when my original server fell apart has led me to wander to various servers, and there is nothing new under the sun except numbers. Many lower servers have very good players-just not enough of them.
PUGS or militia, as I prefer to call them, do jobs that others do not for the most part-refreshing siege, placing siege, scouting, repairing, etc. I love a good open field fight, but when one is looked upon as a PUG, people tend to overlook your contribution. Not that I am that great a player, but have outlasted others in fights despite the fact that my main is a light armor class. I hear comments like-don’t repair-the PUGS will do it. Yes, it is GUILD WARS, but if I am not comfortable in a guild, I will run alone. I am not afraid to die-been there; done that a lot. Methinks all PUGS feel the same. Downside is that PUGS can’t claim structures.
My summary: Don’t underestimate anyone on your server. Everybody contributes-maybe in different ways, but it all counts. Everyone doesn’t play by your rules, but are there for the same purpose-to help the server. PUGS tend to run more than guilds from what I have experienced. Don’t downplay their value. Agree or not-I am stating my opinion from a PUG’s point of view. Rant over now. People can post whatever-it’s not going to change my opinion. And even PUGS are allowed opinions

I personally want the Desert bl’s with some minor changes… 1. Make all WP’s usable because it’s stupid to have them the way they are. 2. clear out the middle so it can be used for field battles and disallow siege on it. Those two things alone would make it so much more fun. in my opinion anyway..

As for losing people… if anything I know that the groups that I run with will most likely increase. So many people really hate the new bl’s and just won’t come play anymore except for wvw guild missions then they leave. With the Alpine coming back I know that a lot of them will come back and will love the fact that they don’t have to grind with Keep upgrades etc. The way it’s set up right now with the yak numbers coming in make it more interesting. So blending the new with the old should actually be pretty interesting. I still prefer the new overall, but if people come back and run with my tag like they say they will then I’m all for trying out the new/old/new.. lol

Puck.9612:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Yes.

That said, we’ll be increasing the cooldowns on all tactics by 5-10 minutes. Also, once the scribing costs come down, as part of the april build, we can start looking at rebalancing their actual effects as well.

I mean…. are you trying to kill WvW? Seriously what the kitten is wrong with you people.
Leave that kitten in EB if you want, you’ll still get people to give you money so they can grind your kittening pve pay wall, but give us back the alpine map without your stupid kitten.
I know Anet had a serious problem with thinking about long term solutions but here’s a hint, you can’t milk a dead cow.

They’ve kind of put themselves in a bind, though, and you have to understand that.

Look at the response to removing legendaries (something which was promised/highly implied with the expansion). Not everyone will be interested in them, but some people will and would have invested a fair amount of time/effort/money in achieving them. Same with guild upgrades like this. Many of us don’t like them, but how would you suggest Anet repay the people who have actually spent time/effort/money getting these upgrades. I’m saying this even as a player who is in exactly 0 guilds with any major upgrades like that. I don’t even think we have anything like +5 supply unlocked and we haven’t bothered to try.

If Anet were to straight up remove tactivators from any WvW maps, we’d hear a number of people complaining, I guarantee it. Some very large guilds have spent time/effort/money unlocking them. The best way forward is for Anet to address what is considered OP instead of taking them out entirely. I’m sure many of us would be fine with a few tower/keep specific defenses to help with that defense. Maybe the current iterations are a little unnecessarily OP, but in their essence they have good intentions. Maybe an emergency waypoint every 30 minutes. Maybe chilling fog for 20 seconds every 20-30 minutes. Maybe using one of the upgrades should put all other tactivators on cooldown for 20 minutes so that they can’t all be spammed at once.

The point is that there are ways for the numbers to be tweaked so that those who hate tactivators would be able to cope with them, but in a more manageable way. That’s the best step forward unless you want more people throwing fits about how Anet has taken away things from the Xpac and blah blah blah refunds.

Stats offer less defense against condis means, you can go full zerk and still counter condis with traits/skills. One of the reasons why glassy condi/hybrid builds (viper/sinister) are much harder to play on many classes than zerk builds. Same or even less defense than zerk, less dmg because of condi remove (and sometimes because the condi variant of a class generally deals less dmg), more dmg from counter builds …

People should really start looking at specific builds/traits/skills instead of moaning about condis in general. But yea, i get it, better completely delete a certain playstyle just because YOU don’t like it …

ahhhh i love this topic ^^.
Let me start with the “welcome to the Condi wars 2”, a morb affecting pvp environment since june patch 2015, in fact in the last year i’ve criticize the whole condition dmg in any possible way, and i cant find any way to make developers understand that in an action combat mmo, condition dmg has no place, by doing a simple comparison, even in FFVIII wich was a turned based rpg, condition wasnt so preponderant. To me, condition dmg beeing more powerfull than power is just… not fun.
Still in this year the more i tried to fight condition in the forums, the more i found that there are actualy many people defending the condition dmg, probably those many people are the slow fingers/brain ones who cant set up a proper burst in a specific timing, so they prefer theyr burst slowly and constantly accumulate skill after skill till they can even reach more devastant burst dmg than a power build if not cleansed. Condition dmg is the sort of mechanic that promotes spamm, cuz in fact you dont have to think about WHEN doing the burst, you have to focus on survive and the thicks of condi will eventualy rise and rise, especialy with the many autoprocs sigill/rune/traits that we have. Also, not having the chance on WICH condi you prefer to cleanse is another bad thing, in comparison as i said in FFVIII wich was a turned based game, you could actualy chose to cleanse poison instead of let’s say zombie status. I guess, the real problem is that this game is noob friendly, and condition dmg is noob friendly.

So after this kinda of preface, i’ll let go the fun/healty side of the condition combat, andlet show you my point of wiew about condi in wvw and his respective balance issues:

FIRST PROBLEM, some pve stats combination are really overpowered, especialy when they include condition damage on them as a main stat. For example dire and Trailblazer are totaly unbalanced set of stats, thats the reason they are not even appearing in pvp, but unfortunately we actualy have them in wvw.

SECOND PROBLEM, as someone already mentioned, anet balance team seems to have forgot after buffing condition dmg to buff the cleanse capacity of each class, resulting in very high unbalance issue. In a way that no matter how many condi cleanse you have, the spamm of them too high in comparison, it’s like Anet lost the control on this.

THIRD PROBLEM, condition removal capacity differently from the possibles counters to berserker/power build, are not balanced between classes, this means while a berserker build can be countered by ANY class by just tank up, or by learning to dodge the single burst the opponent class have, with condition damage instead there are some class that have literaly really bad bad access to condi cleanser, thusly differently from countering power build, sometime you have to literaly upset your build in order to chose cleansing trait/utility to face condi. To me, having cleanser to be mandatory is the DEATH of BUILD DIVERSITY wich is afflicting this game. As i said a couple of thousand times, condition should just be a kinda of side dmg in support of power dmg for the kiting classes.

FOURTH PROBLEM: maybe many of you are not updated about gvg scene, but actualy the meta is some sort of condi/hibrid based. The reason is always the same, much more easy to coordinate a condi burst that accumulate even in a not perfectly syncronized group burst than playing simply power builds. Also, you force the opponent to change their offensive build in a more sort of preserved cleanser hybrid.

FIFTH PROBLEM: in a blob fight, immobilize or chill can be much more deadly and devastating than in pvp or a single 1v1, since if you get immobilized, you will recieve the damage of 30+ people wich often can result in a instant death. So, in blobs condi removal are needed to avoid soft CC. But what happens if the blob is condi based, you will have to waste your condi cleanse even for the condi dmg, wich result a fast death in the consecutive immobilize. I dont understand why people keep saying condi are not good in blob fights, there’s so much aoe/opponents/dmg to evade to watch out, that if you even have to waste your attention to condi dmg, i don’t see any fun on the fight.

SIXTH PROBLEM, and this is the big one that some dumbyy condi lover doesnt seems to get: differently from power based dmg, that can be counter by a single stat (toghness) or nicely timed evades, condition damage HAS to be cleansed. This means, you have to waste seconds of cast time during an entire duel to cast a cleanse skill. This often result in the fact that to counter conditions, you have less offensive initiative than when facing power builds.

I hope to find people in this forum that can help me making anet realize what they are doing to this game. Gw2 had and still have an amazing combat sistem, plz anet dont ruin this amazing games with bad decision and unfun mechanics.
I understand that this is a noob friendly game, but even a noob can have more fun if the game is more skill oriented. And to me, condition damage is the ANTISKILL side of the game.

Ty for reading, hope some developer will read this too, cuz it’s not only my idea, but the idea of my entire wvw guild, and of all of my friends that like to play hardcore.

I rarely waste my time with a condi mez. I’ll poke at them and if they are halfway competent I just cleanse and move on. They can’t chase you down to kill you.

I see them the same way I see full soldier daredevils, or the old nike warriors. They are more of an annoyance than they are dangerous. They are trollish builds that are only effective if you play their game.

TheGrimm.5624:

…its arrogant of players to say, I don’t play that game mode remove it, even if other people are. I hate Raids, should I be here saying remove them…

I agree so much with this line.

First of all, server status also counts EoTM, so the result is a bit skewed.

• Baruch is mostly a pve server, the “very high” status is not the best representation of the actual wvw population we have, as a lot of people only show whenever a tag is up, there’s no roaming culture, and a lot only play for 1-2 hours per day to kill the time and do the dailies. SAB came and Baruch population has decreased considerably. And whenever an international server gets stacked they beat us easily, like it can be seen nowadays with Piken.
  Then, Baruch has a very volatile coverage along 24 hours. While it is true at night we are the server with the highest coverage, it is also true in some timezones we’re outnumbered even against mid table servers. Coveragewars2 is not updated, but I remember Baruch being 14th or 15th in mornings or late afternoons, while being 2nd or 3rd at nights for several weeks.
  But also, I’ve been playing during those offtimes of my server. Yesterday, as an example, there was just a 25 man zerg in EB, while borders were completely deserted.
  So my experience and opinion aren’t based only on high population situations.

• I’m not calling people lazy or dumb because they’re not successful when playing alone in these borderlands. I’m doing it to those who criticize DBL just because it involves a different mentality than Alpine, it is taken as an easy target for issues of WvW not related to the map, overexaggerate travel times and do all these from the ignorance, showed by how little people know how the new map works.
  Sorry, but people saying new borderlands are bad because you cannot longer flip it in 12 minutes or you need to pay attention to the map geography is silly and ridiculous.

• Any map will fail if there’s no population there. Alpine was extremely boring during 3-6am and EB before HoT, when pretty much everybody (at least on my tiers) was on Alpines fighting each other while waiting for HoT in hopes of a new WvW experience.
  Even pve maps are horrible if there’s no population. I remember back in the first days when Cursed Shore was insane due to event farming. Later they nerfed it and the map became unworthy to step.

• Scouting and roaming purpose is entirely anet’s fault with auto upgrades, guild upgrades impossible for small guilds, gimmick central event (and now lack of it).
  This, the exaggerated verticality in some places and the excessive pve stuff present are the only things that can be complained with solid arguments. Everything else needs personal preference or biased opinion to be held.

• Well, you cannot expect to be able to defend anything against +20 people with just 1 or 2 guys. That would make defense OP and WvW would become boring as hell. There’s a point where numbers prevail, and should do. But 1-2 against 10? That’s easily possible.
  I don’t have the precisely footage you’re asking me, but here is something similar. 2 mid-size guilds and some randoms vs a german blob with like 8-10 arrow carts if I remember well:
  https://youtu.be/bTvC5aMHrSM?t=503

Bringing back Alpine BL neither is a solution. Half of 2015 wasn’t fun at all, and people had a lot of hopes in HoT to bring a new and fresh map that stopped the OPness and boredom of karma train and golem rushes (how many have you seen in desert?). It seems people have forgotten that.

Let’s be real and clear, playerbase has taken DBL as the culprit of the issues of WvW, when the reality is the map is not that badly designed, and with some tweaks it can actually become very good.
There are far more irritating issues, like population and class balances, which haven’t been targeted because they already existed before HoT and people already complained about them. Doing it now to them wouldn’t be as louder as DBL, which is a completely new thing.
It’s like the new guy in school being bullied because he’s new.

Never left, but no bringing back ABL will not encourage me if they do it and scrap DBL, if anything it would give me more indications the end is near.

This is a witch hunt. Bringing back ABL is not a silver bullet.

Have to agree with the above. ANet needs to ask, why is EB always populated where as both DBL and ABL had less people on them. Its the equal footing. Both DBL and ABL should be restructured to be equal footing and then remove the concept of home borderland and have those three maps (EoTM would be a plus to some which would make 4) what players are fighting over. That still won’t address the other issues though like population, balance, rewards, scoring, but it would create more places people want to fight over.

EBs success is due to its size and all three enemies having bases on the same map encouraging more fights. If DBL had mirrored this with just one borderlands map and a slightly shrunken size it would be just as popular.

That is actually not my main concern atm.
In my opinion we should be looking for a lasting solution which offers all of us a sense of belonging or being part of WvW.

In that sense i don’t have a problem with the old maps returning, but i don’t believe in devolution being the solution. Returning to the old will not solve the problem we need to look ahead and make the game better together.
I believe firmly that instead of making the new and the old mutually exclusive, we should add the maps together, add some more maps, make a working rotation so players do not get bored with what they are playing in WvW.

I also believe that WvW is more than just fights focussed around blobs and zergs, we have roamers, defenders, scouts, escorters, ambushers, taggers, small offensive initiative (havoc) and maybe even more forms of playing.
Maybe the solution is not only to make the maps what evryone would like them to be, maybe part of the solution is too make the maps more specific allowing a certain kind of fight to be more apparent.

Like introducing an open field map just with multiple locations under different conditions to fight in, or a meta-event spread over several fighting instances which reflect the diverse nature of WvW but which would reflect the fight and have as a real endgame a battlefield victory for a server. This map could also be used for GvG, leagues and competitions aswell.

Do we therefore need to remove things we have, i think that would make WvW even less viable, maybe we should ask ourselves wetter WvW still has a future or as many on the forum have stated is dead, a part of the past.
But all of this stand and falls with the patience and the will of the players to participate actively in WvW.

A good start would be to look at the positive points and to work away the negative points on all the maps and come with suggestions offering opportunities.
Concerning maps there will always be big and small maps, maps with choke-points, maps without, maps with conditions and maps without. Look at how you can improove them to make them playable for all.

You will always have maps that allow either for more PPK or PPT and rankfarm, the answer is to find the balance.

As for automatic upgrades rendering escorting and scouting useless, that is in my opinion a hoax, yes players focus more on escorting dollies they don’t need to stay with the camps as they upgrade, but most do because you need to keep an eye on your enemy if he’s close.

The automatic upgrades are handy to have for defenders if guilds provide them, my guild does, don’t hear any defenders complaining about that and they do allow you to do multiple things whilst your objective is upgrading making you available to do other things.

And yes WvW is way to expensive nowadays and yes it needs to be affordable cause its ruining my wallet , which is not fair, and the upgrades need to go way quicker!!

And Jade Sea is still building Superior arrowcart’s evry 5quare mm of a map wetter it be a tower keep or just a camp, same goes for putting 10 rams or cata’s down in 1 square meter,,, Bringing Alpine back or playing on Desert will never change that!!!!

So many good things in the old and new why do we really have to loose any of it?
sigh

@lil Devils

I agree with you on alot of points, but rolling the game back to pre HOT WvW will not save WvW.

The loyal WvW players are few and alot of the returning players will just stay until they have their belly full and leave again like happened when the Alpine borderlands were still up, when it still was the old system before HOT was released.

Another point is the loyalty to a single server many players have multiple accounts hovering one week on one the next on another server, alot of the players that should be playing WvW are PVE rank-farming in EOTM, not because they are loyal players but because it just is much quicker to do without having the stress of having to play with a guild or for a server. They are careless.

In a sense the arguement of bringing Alpine back is just a cover-up.

How many players really play WvW still atm. how many players still play GW2 atm.? Why the mega-server system?

Looking for positive answers and solutions that do not mutually exclude the other is my answer, contacting as many players as possible from the WvW-gaming community for their help and participation in this process should be the way.

Atm i play with groups from my guild between 3-15 members, some are core-players not all, but they do have the sense to play with the guild as they consider themselves to be part of it. We do all WvW, PvP, PVE together and all use TS.

Don’t i encounter enemies on the desert borderlands, i do, cannot deny the truth,
Do i like the old and the new mechanics, my guildies like em both and we all play WvW not for the PPT or PPK its really not about getting points its about spending quality game-time together and getting the feeling we are doing something usefull.

We help zergs, blobs, individual roamers, small guilds, big guilds, we’re building up stuff (if other players afterwards take care of it!) defending, capping, ambushing and small offensive initiative which we like the most, because it makes zergs and blobs have to split up to come deal with us and gives our zergs and blobs more time to organise themselves.

Take that away WvW will loose its purpose, atraction and sense, opening up another gap in the borderlands when we leave WvW.

Stealth and airship are SM only – they won’t be going to the ABLs. I am meh on the tactivators myself, just surprised any of you thought they wouldn’t be added as they are in EBG. My biggest gripe is how the WPS work.

I’m looking forward to seeing a balance pass on some of the tactics. Most of the timers did need an increase.

I am also bemused that anyone thought that tactics wouldn’t make an appearance on ABL.

I will be fine with no loot or xp from siege, and more loot without siege…
This can be a good solution, but don’t touch AC’s…. Just remove reward if you use them…
Protecting your stuff and killing ennemy is enough for me as reward.

OP basically got the one point that defines wvw: server pride.

If you take this away everything will be like eotm. No matter the fancy mechanics that may come.

There is a bit of discussion about EotM not being “real” WvW, and for me, I would like say to say that in some cases they are both the same. It’s Open Team based PvP, It’s Point Capture, and it’s the same idea of Three Teams. Red, Green, Blue. I can play “real” I run around flipping points and capping objectives in both environments without a single clash with other players, equally so, I can get bombarded by endless blob wars in both environments So it’s not the Mechanics that are real;y a dividing issue.

However, I can see why EotM is not considered “Real” WvW, because there is no “World Loyalty” in EotM.

EotM is like this one big huge Pug of people that are there for loot, karma, and exp. They don’t care what server they are running with or against. Leave EotM to sell/buy/trade, come back and even if it is the same “match” you can end up on a different map, running with new people, under a new commander, and facing opponents you never saw before. There is no Unity or Loyalty in EotM

Unlike WvW, where the people you see out there Today, are the same people that were there Yesterday, and will be there Tomorrow, there is a sense of My World. I will defend My Borderlands. WvW is like being in this one huge Guild. We may not all get along, but we are all part of the same team.

I think that really is where the division is between the two.

Just wanted to put that out.

EoTM, was supposed to be, basically a place to screw around in while waiting to get into wvw, the problems started occurring when anet decided to treat eotm equally to wvw.

It is different in mechanics obviously, which leads to player attitude being different towards it: Short matches, random players, lack of/difficulty setting up coordination and communication, no meaning to score, instance system, etc. While there is a pvp element, it is not the same as wvw just because there are some similarities. It is no more wvw then the pvp game mode. The way many players treat it is more like PvEvP, go there to farm like you would in pve, with an element of pvp.

If people have fun, god bless thats what they should be doing in a game, thats what its all about. I am not one of those that thinks eotm should be removed. Although I do think there should be a focus shifted away from eotm when it comes to making changes to WvW. It is not hard to see that the DBL layout, and much of the hot features were inspired by eotm. I dont want eotm used a testing grounds for wvw changes and features. And at least it seems anet is moving away from that after announcing that upcoming wvw changes will be beta tested on live servers first before being fully implemented. So thats a step in the right direction.

RodOfDeath.5247:

STIHL.2489:

EotM is fine, if people enjoy that, allow them to enjoy it, I just think that it should not reward WvW Exp or Give Badges, unless from PvP drops.

Agreed, eotm is a farm nothing more and a way to level your toon to 80, at least in the past you could speed to 80.

Totally with you, and it’s really wonderful for the people that like, it’s decent loot, karma, and exp, it’s like this ultimate PvE playground for the WvW player, so I can fully understand why they enjoy it. I just don’t feel that it should reward WvW Exp or Badges, outside PvP interactions.

Just baddies blaming the new game mechanics imo. I like both.

Before HoT people were quite bored about Alpine.

• Karma train blobs had it too easily.
• Defending an entire bl with a blob was too easy.
• Structures were too simple. Once walls were broken that was no longer a structure, but an extension of the flat map the alpine is. People knew every last spot to attack and to defend so, unless you were ninjaing it without enemies the only solution was to treb from another structure you owned.
• Too easy to take even a keep without enemies.
• Map was too straightforward, and there was no room for mindplay with the terrain.

Anet designed the desert map trying to address these things.

• WP mechanic changed, so now blobs have to spread to cover all structures.
• Map redesigned to a more square solution, so keeps are further from each other.
• Now towers and keeps are more complex. They can be attacked from much more places, and more particularly, those are separated from each other.
• They separated the structures so each one requires an isolated strategy and fight.
• Walls separation became bigger so there’s no room for out/in ninja catas.
• Lords became more complex and difficult, Those days soloing a keep or a tower in a matter of seconds are gone.
• Added complexity to the map. People now can play more with the terrain and it requires more attention and knowledge. No more autorun and I cross the map.

Anet had a promising solution for the map, but as they overtuned some changes (structure separation, map complexity and structure complexity, choke points) and added non-healthy things (auto upgrades, pve stuff, pve grinding guild upgrades), paired with the lack of proper test and feedback of the playerbase, the final result ended up being very underwhelming.

But the player base is also guilty for the actual situation. There have been a lot of exaggerated complains, which show how ridiculous the playerbase can become.
People have taken the new bl with the mentality of the old, and they have forgotten what was making alpine so boring: EASINESS.

• While it is true the complexity or air and fire keeps is too much, the rest of the map is quite well designed in terms of complexity. There are a lot of spots which gives a position advantage, and those seeking for them will have a much easier fight. But people seems prefer to farm enemies in a flat surface instead of quality fights.
  The funny thing is the most and best remembered thing of the playerbase are garrison fights, which were the quality ones with added complexity.
• While it is true navigating through some places can be even dangerous, the general added complexity allows more mindplay and those creative players are rewarded. People only want to rush to straightforward fights and bags. Mindgame and the unknown is not for them.
• While it is true keeps design are too over-elaborate, they are designed for multi-attacks. But people still have the blob map mentality.
• And while it is true DBL is not the most fun bl possible, the hatred over it is silly. EB with 50-100 men queue, the rest of the borderlands empties and people still complain DBL are empty. Move your kitten and start playing them instead of complaining them while sitting doing nothing because EB is full!!!

Personally I’ve had very interesting fights in the DBL. More than 1 hour trying to take keeps, difficulties with the portal, deaths because bad terrain decisions, kills through taking advantage of the map, soloing towers and it didn’t take that much, spending more time capping camps than actually killing the npcs…

The saddest thing is those who will complain about the new alpine bl will be the same who griped about the desert: People unwilling to try new things or to adapt to a new scenario, and well-sit in their comfort zone of blob farming and karma train PPT.

As a commander from a known guild said in one of the Reyana’s interviews:
“Alpine borderlands were just fun, they were great, they were easy, you could flip a whole map in 12 minutes, but that didn’t matter because… you could flip it in 12 minutes and then another blob would full map in the enemy bl. They would run to flip it in 10 minutes, but you would be there waiting for them”.

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

What is a hot system?

PVE, grindy, gimmicky, bouncy environmentally NPC focused material.= HoT system. ( AKA~ Banners, airships, more NPC’s, Grind PvE to be able to play WvW, stupid crap popping out of the ground, auto WP, spend all your time running around aimlessly and PvD than in PvP action… )

(…)

That is why removing that garbage is only one step in improving WvW and making it grow. They have to start treating it like a large scale PvP battlefield rather than a PvE map where you can also attack other players. They need to focus more on rewarding player skill while fighting over objectives to actually start to improve it. PPK needs to take priority over PPT, completely changing the way game play is valued and rewarded in the game mode. they need to personally reward fighting other players over objectives MORE than PvD, kill NPC’s for a chest and win. You would no longer win by Ktrain and PvD, instead, you would win by having more kills at the hands of players over objectives without the use of siege. You get increased PPK, LOOT and Xp for fighting players over objectives, both attacking and defending them, and not reward PvD, Siege humping and ignoring objectives at all.

They need to realize that there are many ways to improve WvW game play and the PvE Gimmicks are not one of them.

Gimmicks…make game easy even for awfull players that come for other games, and give them a chance and i think this is what gw2 is about.

Working only on rewards and ppk, is just like give sugar to a patient and tell that it is a medicine that cures of all his/her problems whiel the problems continue, game needs much more in depth things to do.

Um no, Gw was never about making it easier for players who suck, it was about reducing the grind and being able to come in and play with a top level character without having to play PvE to do so. That w as what set Gw1 apart.
It doesn’t " help" the individuals who suck due to anything that can be done by the individual can be done by the zerg, So in the end you just have the zerg all using the gimmicks against the few in addition to them sucking.

EVERYTHING implemented in the game mode should be expected to be used by the Zerg to their advantage and gauge how that affects the game mode prior to implementing such things. Gimmicks only make that worse for the individual, not better if you are playing on equally populated servers. If they actually solve the core issues with the game mode, every server will have a zerg, zergs will be attacking and defending fighting each other inside structures and will come back to defend their objectives due to it being worth their time and effort to do so. The individual will always be at a disadvantage to the zerg no matter how many gimmicks you implement, as it should be in a massive multiplayer PvP zone. The individual is not expected to survive or fight the zerg, if they are unfortunate enough not to get away from them and become road kill, they need to let their own zerg know where they are instead.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Shadelang.3012:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Shadelang.3012:

As someone who has probably spent a legendaries worth of gold upgrading towers/keeps with absolutely zero thanks. Reward. Or even respect for it.

Nah. The upgrade system atleast needs to stay.

And the tactivators as well. Those are fun.

The shield gen is the ONLY thing we have to stop the alpine BL karma train from coming back (drop 2 trebs in a tower. Push the smaller zerg away with a bigger zerg. Destroy there keeps walls while they have absolutely NOTHING they can do about it).

Atleast the shield gens will help with treb spam. (You want our shield gens down you can walk into OUR arrow cart fire instead of the other way around). Maybe defending will actually mean something. it sure as HELL didn’t before HoT.

The new sentry system makes them actually useful. They can slow down yaks. And they can give away zergs. Gives roamers a purpose (Hey someone kill that sentry before we get there…no not 20 people god kitten it wheres a roaming group when we need it)

The new yak escort buff is pretty kitten mandatory if we don’t want to go back to how we were with 1 condi thief killing literally every yak on the map even if you have 3-4 people escorting the yak.

Many of there new systems WORK. They do exactly the job they were designed for. Getting rid of some of the WORST parts of WvW. Since there changing the BL anyway (and throwing away likely massive amounts of effort for the sake of pleasing the wvw community(Lol like we are EVER pleased)) lets see how the old map interacts with the new systems BEFORE we get our pitchforks and demand they burn down everything they have ever made.

No you don’t. To stop the karma train, you need actual defenders and ARC’s – that is it. Shield Gens, like the tactivators, are just a crutch. If a keep is T3, gates are hard to get through.

I guess we remember different games then. Because what I remember was watching the walls on my Garri fall after defending it non stop for 2 and a half hours with absolutely nothing to show for it. (Becuase we simply couldn’t reach there towers without being wiped) Simply because they had a big enough zerg we COULDN’T push them away from there tower. And they simply hard rezzed anyone that went down becuase we didn’t have enough people to push them off the bodies.

Numbers meant everything. If they had more than you then they kept you from there trebs and the tower that contained them.

What I said in my post was that I was HOPING that shield gens make a difference there. If we had had those back then MAYBE we could have held out long enough for the enemy zerg to either try something desperate (giving us a chance to actually wipe them) or forcing them to hit another location. Atleast giving us a tiny bit of satisfaction.

I was on a Gari defense on ABL’s many times and the fights would go on for hours. It was a 50/50 chance that the Gari would fall. Most times as a defender we were outmanned and many times we would wipe the invaders and start again (I was on TC and in T1 at the time).

It is the difference that people have decided they don’t like the DBL’s (I think it is actually all the HoT add in stuff people don’t like) and there are no longer fights like that. It is easier to get into Gari from home base, on DBL’s, than it was on the ABL’s as the gates were closer together and the invaders can camp to pick the defenders coming in off.

Shield Gen’s add nothing. They are a crutch is all.

They are a tool. Thats all. How well the tool is used is up to the player using it. And the team that sets them up. Every shield gen build is one less place an arrow cart can be placed before siege cap hits. It gives a form of control when it comes to defending. But its abilities are also limited TO defense and control.

Shield gens are as much a “crutch” as arrow carts. Niether directly pushes the battle one way or the other. But one can be used to take away an opponents advantage. And the other can be used to augment your own. BOTH can be used to trap enemies in kill zones. Each can do either in different situations.

Saying to get rid of shield gens we might as well get rid of arrow carts to. I can actually think of alot of people that would be happy with that.

I disagree that shield gens are a cruch. I feel they fill a needed role in our inventory of siege without stepping on the toes of other siege. And without being directly over powered. They at MOST act as multipliers allowing you to buy time. How much time it buys will still depend on the supporting units you have in place. I.E. The other players and siege you have available. A shield gen alone is worthless on its own. As it can be easily overpowered (staggered treb shots. Even just player aoes). But with other units and players acting together with it it can turn the tide against a larger zerg thats trying to form a breach into your keep.

Edited to take out superfluous crap.

Edit 2: If we were to take out everything that could be considered a “crutch” there would only be catas and rams. No other form of siege. No tricks like stealth traps or supply traps. And the game would be that much more stale. Because people would have fewer things to try in order to beat the odds that are against them.

2) Working towards a permanent solution

I have a solution though why does arena-net not do a POLL THROUGH THE ON-JOIN SCREEN LINKING IT WITH THIS FORUM with multiple selection options
reflecting all the posts that were created surrounding WvW, it would cover all the bases and you would have correct information about what the majority
of your WvW players want for the future of the game, you only need to add an option for players to react if they want to add some more thoughts.

At least it would be honest and give you a real idea about what is living inside WvW or do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

This is just plain basic realistic logic free from all forms of powerplay, generalisation and it is neutral whereas the discussion on the Gw2 forums are not?

On top it would set a path to a real stable future for WvW which would be supported by the majority of the players playing WvW

Just to show players that we do actually care about all the aspects of the game and are free from outside influences, someone actually challenged me to produce a workable poll yesterday, well i took up your glove and accepted your challenge.
We did it with one little difference to your way of trying to change things in WvW though, we did it with respect not only for your opinion and players that have the same concerns as you have,
but added all possible options making it fair towards the entire WvW-gaming community. Seeing i had nothing to do well i could spend the time productively there’s nothing wrong with doing brain-execises isn’t there?
Just took me a couple of hours to come up with this draft.

Yesterday there was a big row going on the GW2 forum on the post about the overhaul of WvW.

It seems some of the ppl, on the forum didn’t like the idea of an open discussion building up around the idea what WvW really needs to be stable in the future and what it will require to keep is as a part of the game alive.
Seeing it was easier to remove my entries instead of reacting to them i will re-edit my thoughts.

I’ve added this all into a single post referring to WvW and i would like reactions to the suggestions and the basic idea behind the post. Thank you for reacting in advance!

Hence this post:

If it hurts feeling so be it I would rather throw a brick trough the window to shatter an illusion then let players dream up a form of utopia that doesn’t work. Utopia’s never work!

My thanks go out to the players that got anxiety whilst reading my posts and the forum moderator they employed removing not only my ideas for an overhaul but those of my fellow Guildies, if you cannot take criticism and want things to go your way just remove it, thank you for allowing me to have this forum!

cc of this post will go to several key-members of Arena-net trough face-book!
(maybe the zealous forum-admin can explain removing valid posts to them)

My position is the following:

A) Comparing WvW to the other game formats does not work, whereas PvP and PvE allow for random players to join WvW needs dedicated and loyal players that play on a daily basis else WvW as a system comes to a standstill.

B) In order to make important changes to WvW, you need the broad support of your WvW gaming-community, not just the designers and the players here helping them out changing the game are required for this.

Although you guys do an important job, and keep the game running where for my thank and gratitude, the future of an entire portion of Guild Wars 2 is too important to let you guys just decide about it.

Reasons why:

1) Alot of the players the developers depend on are from the fighting guilds the vision of these players is clouded, generalizing and judgemental, their main interest is making fights more interesting.

2) WvW is supposed to be the combination of a) a strategy game and b) a battlefield game, which allows the maximum of different fighting styles to be applies to it.

-In order to achieve this you need to capture, defend and add upgrades to your camps, towers and keeps this requires support from scouts, escorters builders, players and guilds that provide upgrades.

things working against this:

1) The guilds many of the complainers and helpers represent only are interested in fighting, they do not care about PPT which allows the they represent server to win.

2) These guilds have a vested interest in acquiring more fighting players, whereas all other segments of the game: scouting, ambush-tactics, sieging, defending, capping, roaming, capture, holding and building up objectives have secondry to none importance, which would at best be minimized or totally removed,
destroying World Versus World that we know and love in the process.

3) The posts reflecting to:

a) bringing back the old maps;
b) bringing back stability and overpowered skillz;
c) getting rid of the mechanics of the HOT system and finally
d) the overhaul of the WvW

Many of these posts and reactions are colored, generalizing, one sided and just follow the perspective of players wanting to turn back the game to the point before they left guild Wars 2.

Some of them havn’t even played the game and went of to do other stuff when HOT and the Desert Borderlands were released, they didn’t even bother exploring and fighting on it and just follow hearsay.

Can you really depend on these players to leave a lasting legacy for WvW, they leave on a whim when the game does not suit them anymore, how long wil this last 2 months to half a year for them to remain?
Are these players more important then the rest of your players that play the game on a daily basis? Now it looks like you are following the ideas of a couple of hundred players
versus the rest of your entire WvW-gaming community.

Can you or anyone at Arena-net tell me where the BALANCE you wish for is in this?

Evry interested WvW player deserves to have his voice heared, not just the few players that help out on the forum that tell about other WvW-players that their voice doesn’t count often arguementing that these players are ignorants!
Because its the voice of a happy careless player? a happy concerned player? a new player to WvW without real knowledge? players that don’t react on the forum?

We all deserve an advocate someone or multiple players that defend our causes and want to be the voice of players that are not heared or players that do not bother using this forum to voice their concerns?

Hence my reaction trough this post no doubt some of you will totally disagree but that is your right as it is mine to react and to voice my concerns and those of the WvW players inside Angel Hearts Clan.

The ideas and toughts of Angel Hearts Clan about what is needed for WvW:

My guildies and myself sat together (12 + players) and we discussed what we are seeing in WvW and what we think it misses, these were our answers: