Guild Wars 2

There are lots of people in it because they find it worth their time to be there, and plenty enjoy it.

“People like eotm better than wvw, we should remove eotm so they have nowhere else to go but wvw, that way maps will be full and wvw will work.”

No, people will just quit the game, worst reasoning in a game setting ever.

You’re all trying to get rid of symptoms and ignoring the cause, which will never work:

The problem is wvw sucks because Anet ruined it. Ruining or removing other parts of the game will not fix anything. This is so blindingly obvious it’s honestly stunning that people keep suggesting it. This is a game, people have a choice to play this game or another, you think removing things they enjoy doing will “force” them into the mode you want? It won’t, they will just find a better game.

Edit: And if you honestly have such great disdain for the people who are in eotm, why not group up go there and kill them? That is one way you yourself could take action and make people stop going to EotM. In fact, this is what REAL wvw people should do, make an organized effort to shut down EotM on your own. I know myself and plenty of others who go to EotM just for fighting/ganking/etc. would be happy with that

this is good data, and i thank you for it.
heres my 2 cents:
1- people are not used to the map, are stubborn, and dont want to learn.
2- most of whats fun in wvw requires a zerg, and the verticality can make it hard to link back up with your group.
3- i think if people broke into smaller groups the map would be a whole lot more active. having one big zerg means theres less chance to find some action.
4- wvw died not from the map, but from other problems. people want something to blame so they choose an easy target.
5- like people have been saying, the towers hold no value. in alpine you used them to siege keeps with trebs.
5- the auto upgrades and pve gimmicks anger the populace. although i dont understand the dislike of auto upgrades, i cant understand how anyone would find doing that manually any fun.

Thanks to the genius a SIN member who shall not be named cough Pas De Seul cough Kaineng had a fun reset/April Fools event tonight in which our players ran around perma toniced until engagement very fun lots of laugh’s, soooooo many fights, and plenty of loot bags for all.

Thanks to SIN, ReRi, Owls, HELL, KS and other Kaineng members that came out and enjoyed this event with us more will be planned in the future with a weekly event the goal!

Happy April Fools everyone!

Puck.9612:

wall of whine

EotM is now an established game mode and not something for the Dev’s to toy with. If anything, regular WvW has sadly become the more expendable mode. Just because you personally never liked EotM, doesn’t mean you are more important than an entire mode.

Btw, a BL map is not designed around a balanced three way fight. A balanced 3 way is an essential requirement for an EotM map. So no, the Desert or Alpine BL map cannot be used for EotM at all.

As I posted above, this request comes from individuals that have had it in for EotM since it launched. That’s why such it’s such an illogical request.

Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365:

Withotu anything done to the population problem ABLs won’t be any better.

True. People tend to forget that Alpine borderlands where in decline of population since 2014. Deserted borderlands didn’t hit wwvw that much, the blobEG focus was already set. And you mostly can see that new players tend to go EB as it’s easier to understand that map and you have almost nothing to fight for and no tactics involved ussually, while BLs always let you choose what to defend, what to attack or focus another bl more, though it’s hard for those who just jump out of dungeuon.

MSFone.3026:

Yes, good idea, in the meantime while they figure out how to make new maps that are good, bring back alpine so people actually have a decent map to play on while new ones that aren’t terrible are being developed.

I believe that is their plan, but the problem is, if people just ask for the old done-to-death alpine borderlands back, without explaining why, then Anet does not realize the problem, and thus can’t fix it, if they ever make a new map, or go to revise the existing Desert Borderland.

Ben K.6238:

What Alpine had as advantages were more open space and (possibly) closer objectives that could interact with each other in siege scenarios.

It’s supposed to be better for roaming as well, but I found it was a lot easier to find enemies on DBL because I knew they’d be funnelled through certain parts of the map in order to get to others. So I don’t understand that one.

I’ll go there occasionally but in my tier you have to go to EB because there’s not enough population to spread across 4 maps. So unless we get a population boost it’s going to be much the same story.

Pretty much this ^

I remember the months before hot were released. Me and some friends were roaming on the BLs, and it was so tedious. It was the same rotation around the map every time, unless we decided to run the other direction.

we didn’t encounter alot of enemies and most of the action were at eb.

Withotu anything done to the population problem ABLs won’t be any better.

donkey.1653:

you let us create such a mess its not even

FTFY

EotM has surpassed WvW, real or not. It’s a solid game mode that keeps players engaged and playing. Which, I might add requires no additional development to run. So, the last time I checked that’s exactly what a game developer dreams of creating. A self sustaining game mode that requires little input and minimal overhead.

EotM stays as is.

EotM is fine, if people enjoy that, allow them to enjoy it, I just think that it should not reward WvW Exp or Give Badges, unless from PvP drops.

lil devils x.6071:

If the WvW players like what they did they tell them, if they do not they tell them and they remove those elements from the testing grounds.

Hm. If you ask 10 WvW-player what they want you get 15 incompatible opinions, including such stupid – but very popular 3 years ago – requests like new BLs with longer walk-ways. If you use EotM as the test-ground for 4hour matches with dynamic number of maps, then it’s time that this makes it into WvW. The voting is quite clear: EotM is played, WvW is dead.

Fixed number of maps is an inherent design-mistake of WvW.

Fix that and WvW would feel alive, do not fix it and it stays dead.

Do you really want EotM as test ground for WvW? I think it would be horrible to let EotM people test and accept/reject what should go into WvW

lil devils x.6071:

The Ktrain will Die on ALL MAPS if you base the score more on PPK than PPT,

No, it doesn’t care about scoring. It will die if you remove rewards (Karma) from capturing as it’s the Ktrain and not the PPTtrain

Lady Sapphirah.6234:

Ok I’ll spell it out…. …
They know eotm started the problems that killed wvw

No, Eotm did not started the problems that lead to the dead of WvW. These problems are inherent to WvW, EotM only provided an alternative, which is now more successful than WvW, even if EotM has it’s own flaws.

Inherent problems of WvW:

• 24/7 coverage war. No one plays 24/7, and even worser player-distribution is very uneven over the 24 hours of the day (or the time-zones of the world if you are a fan of this stupid “your night is someones day” statement), resulting in queue for 2 hours and a handful of people hopping over empty maps for 22 hours.
• PvD scores better than fights (for an objective)

Inherent problem of both EotM and WvW

• imbalance of manpower over the teams
• there is no stacking penalty, which leads to “the map-blob rules”

Inherent problem of EotM

• You are thrown into a random team
• Scoring is without any meaning

I still think that https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/4-Step-Rescue-Plan-for-WvW is a good way to solve most of these problems for both game modes.

The current upgrade system is best, it prevents it from being exploited by siege trolls, also less work for players doing dull tasks, but they should make Waypoints inside the Borderland Air and Fire keeps an upgrade.

What makes it awesome?

1) Fun: It is genuinely entertaining for a lot of people.
2) Consistent: You know what you are getting when you go there, and you get it every single time.
3) It Works: It is basically bug free and functional.

So many morons on here who are very reasonably dissatisfied with WvW keep making the incredibly unreasonable suggestion that the fix is to wreck/remove something else (EotM).

I know this is a stretch, take slow breaths and follow the simple logic step by step, if you try hard you can do it:

Two things. That are both good. Can both exist in the game. At the same time.
If one sucks. The answer is. Fix the one that sucks.
The answer is not. Make the other one suck too.
This will not fix the problem.

EotM is not the problem, it’s fine, leave it alone and focus on getting what is actually broken fixed. Quit making all these posts trying to get rid of something that plenty of people like and you don’t have to play if you don’t want to, futtbuckers.

Yes parts of the map are gorgeous. I particularly like the dune area above the fire keep and the cavern area around the north east camp. Also Air keep is pretty good looking despite being a chore to navigate.

I’d love for the DBL map to be redesigned to incorporate larger areas of made up of open rolling dunes.

That’s the thing: players CAN change the outcome of a match with auto-upgrades. The belief that upgrades are deterministic is complete BS, and frankly, upgrades are hard to shut down only because of the speedy yaks guild upgrade or when people are actively defending dolyaks, in which case, that’s a community effort to ensure/change the course of the game on both fronts. Denying yaks themselves is easy to do and rarely are they defended, meaning any contribution can be small. The problem will only get worse with speedy yaks, and as such, even the removal of the auto-upgrade system will not change this. If anything, it will make it worse, as then ensuring yaks reach their destination will have an even bigger impact on the game, meaning more guilds will do it.

Making it easy to unlock and hard to maintain is still flawed; it ultimately will act as a unsustainable force which will cause competition to be determined even further by those with the most numbers and richest players. Applied Strength/Fortitude were removed and increased supply capacity took a rank reduction because of this problem being perpetuated. There’s no reason to make it difficult to achieve at all; either these options need to be made extremely accessible or simply not available to remove this distinction.

As for being unable to defend them, it’s not really an issue to lose a tower 3 v 50. Or even 3 v 10 after a long siege. The problem about losing structures too easily is the exploitable safe spots for siege on certain structures. Fix those issues and defense becomes much more fair and matches realism and war strategy; siege tactics often hinged on running a keep dry of its resources and then launching an all-out-assault when the enemy was weak. There should be no reason for only a few people to hold off a blob, or for a tower to be impregnable if nobody leaves it to help smuggle in supply to rebuild siege or repair structural damage.

I remember it as being stressful and rather embittering since the upgrades often got wiped before completing.

As someone who has probably spent a legendaries worth of gold upgrading towers/keeps with absolutely zero thanks. Reward. Or even respect for it.

Nah. The upgrade system atleast needs to stay.

And the tactivators as well. Those are fun.

The shield gen is the ONLY thing we have to stop the alpine BL karma train from coming back (drop 2 trebs in a tower. Push the smaller zerg away with a bigger zerg. Destroy there keeps walls while they have absolutely NOTHING they can do about it).

Atleast the shield gens will help with treb spam. (You want our shield gens down you can walk into OUR arrow cart fire instead of the other way around). Maybe defending will actually mean something. it sure as HELL didn’t before HoT.

The new sentry system makes them actually useful. They can slow down yaks. And they can give away zergs. Gives roamers a purpose (Hey someone kill that sentry before we get there…no not 20 people god kitten it wheres a roaming group when we need it)

The new yak escort buff is pretty kitten mandatory if we don’t want to go back to how we were with 1 condi thief killing literally every yak on the map even if you have 3-4 people escorting the yak.

Many of there new systems WORK. They do exactly the job they were designed for. Getting rid of some of the WORST parts of WvW. Since there changing the BL anyway (and throwing away likely massive amounts of effort for the sake of pleasing the wvw community(Lol like we are EVER pleased)) lets see how the old map interacts with the new systems BEFORE we get our pitchforks and demand they burn down everything they have ever made.

Auto-upgrades are fine imho, and honestly as someone who plays a lot of defense in off-hours, it’s REALLY nice to be able to not need to constantly run around in circles blowing my own currency for the sake of increasing defenses. It’s not interactive. It’s not fun. It’s just a meaningless expenditure justified only by playing for PPT. I’ve asked staunch defenders of the previous system to refresh siege to maintain it for prime time, and these same players refuse, asking for others to do it for them. The defenders and scouts doing this job largely didn’t enjoy it. They did it due to a sense of obligation and wanting to win.

Having the chance to go out and put pressure on enemies during this time to divert attention away from our objectives gives defensive play a bit more meaning than camping structures and asking for permission from a guy with a dorito (if any are even there) to spend supply on things.

The guild upgrades are really the problems I have with what changed in HoT aside from the DBL. These definitely demoralized my small WvW guild to a point of no longer playing.

I never really worried about the pay-to-upgrade system as I never upgraded anything. No-one defended it so it was a waste of gold.

I suppose that was one of the bonuses of solo roaming back then though – knowing that every fully upgraded camp you flipped wasted a fair sum of someone else’s money, and laughing at their insanity.

You guys don’t seem to understand what this really mean. They are basically giving up on improving WvW for good and are rolling back to a previous version instead of investing in the game mode and fixing issues.

The new borderland had a lot of cool new ideas, it’s in its implementation that it had problems. The old borderland isn’t much better honestly,it was designed for the orb mechanic that was then removed and replaced with nothing, the ruins are also useless. Most people here were already sick of playing them 2 years ago.

If you think this will be good for WvW in the long-term it wont.

bobdobelina.9185:

<insert “Why don’t we have both?” taco girl pic here>

When players said, “I miss the alpine maps”, this didn’t mean EVERYONE was saying, “they should can the desert BLs and go back to just alpines”.

It would be a shame to not have the desert BLs in the game still.

That’s the part I don’t get. Why can’t the players have both. I like options. Some days I want to play on DBL, some days on EBG, some days ABL, some days EoTM. Variety is good and keeps the experiences fresh. This my way or the highway bit, well there are other RvR games out there accepting donations.

Sungtaro.6493:

Well hopefully there will be more fights on the bl because I know I will fall asleep if I run around Alpine BL with the same amount of fights pre HOT since the borderlands were deserted then too.

Agreed. People think of alpine BL circa 2013 not pre hot after the stability changes…. While the DBls have many issues, placing blame on them and not the other HOT changes (which will undoubtably come with ABLs) for drastic fall off wvw population is short sighted IMHO. In fact, stab changes were even worse for the mode than HOT…..

Sich.7103:

- Scout can control how to upgrade the keep
– No sentry to give information about ennemy move > players need to roam on the map and to talk each other
– You have to make choice between upgrading or storing supply or building siege
– More supply limit in the keep
– No stupid guild upgrade who are for pve and not for pvp
– more compact
– more big area to fight and less choc point
– Keep are easier and not so big, and look like keep
– Tower can treb keep > tower have tactical value
– WP only at T3 and for everyone who is able to upgrade the keep.
– WP is hard to get, then people want to defend it, and ennemy want to destroy it.
– WP on the home BL help to defend the map
– Easy way to go from one keep to another, no maze
– no kittening central event

I would expect most of the HOT changes will be imported into the old maps, Otherwise why would it take so long to load them back up? Expect to see dragon banners, and other guild upgrades, sentry’s reporting to the map, and possibly even waypoint changes (bay/hills wp at T1 controlled by enemy’s only). Might as well expect these things to happen now, because the likelihood is very high.

Just my opinion.

Sviel.7493:

Dawdler.8521:

Sviel.7493:

At any rate, were you able to defend all of Alpine with just 5 people?

5 people could easily control and scout entire Alpine with minimal movement, requesting reinforcements in time.

On Desert you need 5 people just to scout undercroft and you will probably still miss the 20 people already on the lord.

The size difference and layout is actually quite massive.

I don’t think such exaggeration is helpful.

Puck

On multiple occasions I held hills by myself against groups of 20-30. I would use a good number of siege disablers and mortars/counter siege to destroy anything they had built or send them flying off the cliff.

I used to love going to an enemy bl and ninja’ing hills and then upgrading it to get its wp. I would get roaming fights for hours from people trying to cut off camps or try to take the keep back.
When they did call in the map blob I’d send out word to our own commanders that they could come join in the fight or go bust one of their other way points while they are distracted.

Those 20-30 people couldn’t have had half a brain between them ._.

Had they been on the switch back they’d have been safe from ACs and mortars and you would have had to jump out of the walls to siege disable—but you wouldn’t have been able to get all the catas at once. Also, being knocked back there is a much smaller drop that is non-lethal. Once through outer, the rest would be cake.

But I dunno, maybe you’re superman. If I recall, you weren’t in a boondocks tier, but ninja’ing Hills as a roamer really shouldn’t happen.

Usually when it was a large group like that it’s generous to say they had half a brain between them. It was rarely a competent guild group, they were out looking for fights. More often it was the pug tag who went straight for the easy spot because pugs are dumb and it takes them 20 minutes to walk to the siege sight and put their supply into it.
But the switchback could usually be hit by the 5 shot on the mortars, if they really had it tucked against the wall and I wasn’t getting enough hits on it I could still stealth disable over and over again to annoy the hell out of them.
But I’m gonna go with I’m Superman.

The jumping puzzle.

Sviel.7493:

At any rate, were you able to defend all of Alpine with just 5 people?

5 people could easily control and scout entire Alpine with minimal movement, requesting reinforcements in time.

On Desert you need 5 people just to scout undercroft and you will probably still miss the 20 people already on the lord.

The size difference and layout is actually quite massive.

Alpine borderland was:
1. simpler & easier to learn
2. smaller & faster to travel = less time spent on traveling, more time spent on fighting and having fun
3. every tower had strategical meaning e.g. you could built a treb on it to attack nearest keep
4. supply camps were located closer to the other objectives, shorter distance for supply runs
5. Alpine borderland lacks gimmicks, which just detract from game play, like shrines, jumping pads, wind blowing you off the bridges, auto fire cannons etc.
6. The keeps and towers were much smaller, making them easier to scout
7. The original Alpine borderland had a lake. Underwater combat, yeah!

And last, but not least: the Alpine borderland felt more like home, more like a location you would want to fight for. Maybe because it had forest, meadows, lake, hills and snow and buildings also looked more normal instead of the alien design of earth keep of desert borderland.

Yeah why not merge structure upgrade and guild upgrade.
But then you need to allow small guild to claim and not only big guild. With the cost of the guild hall all small guild have been killed.
It’s WvW, not GvG… You are forced to be in a big guild if you want to be able to give good advantage to your team. At least before HoT every scout was able to have is personnal guild and activate bonus on the keep.
I prefer to unlock claiming with WvW rank. Then alt/spy account need to upgrade the account to be able to claim the keep. And then yes, merge guild upgrade and structure upgrade.
If no one care about the structure it will not upgrade. If someone want to manage the structure, then he can choose how to upgrade it. And the best players can give the best bonus. But this should really be linked to players, not to guild. There is no reason that you need to farm pve with a big guild to be able to add bonus in WvW.
And ofc, add the unclaim poll to be able to unlock something that has been claimed by someone who is blocking the upgrade.
But the bonus should be more wall / door / canon / aura / real WP… Not activator.

Then once you claim something, you can activate the upgrade. Each upgrade need some other (like fortified gate need reinforced). Each upgrade can be started alone. Upgrade are free, but need time and supply. Doly bring supply in the keep, it’s your job to take care if you can start the upgrade or not.

At least this will allow to use the WvW bonus point, so much people have countless free point.

About the shrine yeah, they can stay, but I don’t like the fact that they give pve advantage. The fire/wind turret are just annoying, the first shrine is useless. I mean don’t give advantage at all… Maybe give small PPT, and keep the swiftness bonus. This could be fine.