Guild Wars 2

Oxstar.7643:

If there were classes that could just debunk bunkers (hah!) what would be the point of having bunkers at all? So you’re telling me that thieves should do full damage even if I hold my gear shield up?

THERE IS NO MIDDLE FINGER BIG ENOUGH!

Actually, you might want to take this one up with the devs. They’ve already stated they want warriors and thieves to be “bunker busters”. In fact they plan to implement measures towards this in this patch. The O kitten imply suggesting the do a different mechanic for thieves than they have planned for warriors.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Adaneshade.2409:

Faeyd.5094:

Had a lot of fun last night. for a single PvP bout I decided to use 22222 exclusively and always with haste. I had an AWESOME amount of trash talk coming my way, it was fantastic.

Did you actually kill anyone with that though? lol

Spamming Sword 2 actually does kill people but indirectly. If you are playing 2v2, and both of you target one person. That one person will have a rly tough time escaping the immobilize, giving your ally all the chances he need to kick his kitten

I’m pretty sure he’s referring to dagger here though. Not sword lol

Sebrent.3625:

Meh. Feel = Mastery ;-)

Well, obviously, but it’s hard to describe “feel” to a player without any context.

Sebrent.3625:

I have found the +300 toughness & healing from Shadow Arts very useful for the sword. I imagine it will be even more useful with the upcoming changes to stealth.

I’m actually confused by adaneshade’s need to turn around to get the stab to work. When I use it I simply have to turn my character to hit with each stab. There is a delay between the two that gives you time to compensate for your movement and your foe’s movement.

Perhaps what makes this harder for some to compensate for is that you have probably noticed that when circle strafing you are prone to going clockwise or counterclockwise more often than not. You have to be comfortable turning both ways quickly and smoothly to be successful with FS.

It really is as simple as turning.

If you look carefully at what you’re doing while turning, You’ll see that you move the mouse the distance needed to do a 180. I do it while the ability is casting ofc. The concept is the same, I’m just trying to make it more scientific and less by “feel” for people.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Adaneshade.2409:

It’s an ok build, just not quite as tanky since you miss out on 300 healing power and 300 toughness. It does provide with more initiative, though, so you have to monitor it less closely.
I fill the role of control tank in my gank squads, locking down targets so our burst can kill them without a struggle. This requires me to be insanely beefy (I can eat a full burst rotation from a berserker GS warrior with little danger of going down for instance)

I’m curious why he choose 0/30/20/20/0 wearing Valkyrie and using D/D.

I think I’m missing something why would he put 30pts in CS. :/

30 in CS gets you either 100% chance to crit from stealth or 20% more damage to targets under 50%. Possibly 2 of the strongest traits we have aside from maybe mug.

The definition of ANY word is totally dependant on it’s context and INTENDED meaning….this is why words change in definition over time as more people feel a word means something different than it previoulsy did.

But if it makes you feel better, just replace “casual” with “lazy”, “unwilling to work” or any other term within my contextual meaning.

You’ve done nothing but argue the meaning of a silly word yet shown no evidence that debunks my theory on the evolution of video games in the past 1.5 decades.

hex.3218:

Adaneshade.2409:

volmok.3580:

I’d rather see them implement some beneficial things for owning and defending a tower or a camp as a guild.
At the moment there is no reward in defending a tower (unless you have heavily invested in upgrades); you benefit more from flipping it

Somehow I think that this game is not what ANet advertised, but considering it does not require a subscription I am OK with it; when a real RvR game will appear, I’ll make the switch, but until then GW2 will have to do.

V.

The problem is there will NEVER be another RvR game. No one is willing to copy the formula exactly as it was presented in DAoC. It’s just the sad fact that with MMOs being mainstream now, there are more “casuals” than “hardcore”. Back in DAoC’s prime, MMO gamers were a tiny subset of gamers and nearly 100% could be calssified “hardcore”. If given the chance to make beaucoup money or make a game with merit….companies will always pick the money.

Definitions related to this post:
Hardcore – players willing to put hours into creating a build and practicing it, who value something they have to work their kitten off to accomplish, making the accomplishment more important than the reward

Casual – players who’d rather something be easy to master, who don’t see the value in having to work to improve and would rather just be given a “reward” without having to really work for it

I’ve got 2 things to disagree with here. Even UO had ‘casual’ players. Even by your definition of ‘casual’ which is incorrect.

Casual means a player who can or will only dedicate a limited amount of time to a game.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Casual does not mean ’doesn’t care’, ‘wants things easy’, ’doean’t practice’ in it for cheap rewards and no commitments. Casual means “I only have an hour tonight because the kids are screaming, the wife is sick, I need to finish the taxes, so let me get in and do what I can before I am forcefully torn away from the game.”

And casuals do NOT invest money in the game. hardcore do. The 10 hour a day player is who they target. And they use data to guide them. Players all want different things and we all assume what we want is what the majority must want. We tend to back that up with people on forums saying it. But the majority of players will never post in a forum and probably want just as many varied things as a normal subgroup in a demographic does.

In short, MMOs populations have always been a mix of the curious beginners, the ‘casuals’ without enough time to play, and the hardcore player.

Casual players are not lazy, or greedy, or non caring people, nor are they less deserving of consideration. And they do not make up the ‘taget demographic’ that the designers follow.

TBH, the problem is that PvE tends to be much more popular than PvP in ANY form among most gamers, and always has been. Remember when UO split the shards? That was because 80% of their paying population who would spend hours grinding didn’t want some PvP ganker to take their stuff.

If you could look inside their data numbers, I am willing to bet that even in the beginning, about 80% of players spent their majority of time ( a WIDE majority) in PvE. Only 20% of us in almost any game are ‘hardcore’ PvP. That’s why guilds travel from game to game together because it’s so hard to find enough PvP folks.

Until PvP becomes MUCH more popular, we will never see a true RvR game, true. But ias little to do with casuals, and there aren’t any more casuals than before.

Casual is an incredibly subjective term that means many things to many different people. This is why I provided definitions (similar to what you’d see in any legal document) of EXACTLY what I meant by the term. This in no way invalidates your personal definition or understanding of the word. It just applies a context of the idea I’m trying to convey.

It’s an ok build, just not quite as tanky since you miss out on 300 healing power and 300 toughness. It does provide with more initiative, though, so you have to monitor it less closely.
I fill the role of control tank in my gank squads, locking down targets so our burst can kill them without a struggle. This requires me to be insanely beefy (I can eat a full burst rotation from a berserker GS warrior with little danger of going down for instance)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I want the Thief to actual steal something and keeps it.

“I’m sorry, did this belong to you?” (talking about the legendary greatsword)

Well I don’t know about actual items, but stealing a random skill off the bar of the player you’re fighting (like put it on CD and have it available for the thief to use) rather than a set skill stolen per class would be awesome. (more variety)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Looking-for-a-survivable-tanky-WvW-build/first#post1195052

evilapprentice.6379:

Adaneshade.2409:

Perhaps you’re correct. I would, however, rather see other classes buffed and fixed first, to maybe attract some of the current thieves.

For the good of the game as a whole, the last thing I’d like to see is more thieves being rolled due to this newly fixed awesome weapon set.

But you can’t fight the tide – look at the interaction we just had. I assumed you were being an kitten hat (And due to that assumption was an kitten hat myself). I’ve been convinced that S/D was utter trash because FS (its obvious best skill) wasn’t working.

I’d MUCH RATHER play S/D than D/P – I love D/P, but its just a different flavor of burst, and I’m frankly sick of being burst. I want to play a more survivable, controlling spec, and that’s what S/D offers. Instead of having fun, being useful, and getting more competent with S/D, I’ve basically been wasting my time with filler.

People are always going to flock to the fotm – I don’t think its worth punishing long time thief players to try and stem that tide.

If you’d truly like to play a survivable S/D build, I do have one that I’m willing to share. At this moment and for the foreseeable future, FS will require some practice to master (well worth it btw) but everyone that’s tried my build has been really pleased with it.

Perhaps you’re correct. I would, however, rather see other classes buffed and fixed first, to maybe attract some of the current thieves.

For the good of the game as a whole, the last thing I’d like to see is more thieves being rolled due to this newly fixed awesome weapon set.

You don’t seem to get it. It isn’t about some “superiority complex” at all. The skill is incredibly powerful; likely the most powerful ability we have. We already suffer from constant cries for nerfing our class. Right now, no one realizes how powerful this skill is because so few have actually figured out how to utilize it. If it ever become accessible to the masses, there will be a mass outcry for nerfing the skill.
I’m simply seeing where this fix would lead inevitably.

I’m perfectly willing to teach anyone willing to know, how to use it as is (the exact opposite of a superiority complex).

evilapprentice.6379:

Adaneshade.2409:

Or, you could develop the slightest bit of coordination (allot to ask I’m sure) and turn and activate the skill simultaneously….rather than QQing. Or….just go put the training wheels back on and play P/D or something easy like that.

You know you’re right. I should have experience, right? I mean, you have to be on a 90 degree angle with your target to get shadowshot to hit. Same for Shadow stab. and don’t get me started on Deathblossom – everyone knows you have to run through your target first, then spin around to get that one to connect. And pistol whip only works if you activate it then do a 360 before the stun swing goes off.

It’s not like your playing around a bug, and your riding your high horse telling everyone how easy it is to play around a bug, and how we’re all scrubs because we don’t. Its OBVIOUSLY just part of playing the class I guess.

FINALLY, you make some sense. I’m truly sorry you insist on falling in the “refusal to learn” sect. However, S/D works just fine, as is, for anyone half-way trying, changing it will likely do more harm than good.
I’ve been using this weapon set for all 1200 gameplay hours on my thief, and feel that I’ve EARNED the right to use something that some can’t (or in your case, won’t).

Or, you could develop the slightest bit of coordination (allot to ask I’m sure) and turn and activate the skill simultaneously….rather than QQing. Or….just go put the training wheels back on and play P/D or something easy like that.

volmok.3580:

I’d rather see them implement some beneficial things for owning and defending a tower or a camp as a guild.
At the moment there is no reward in defending a tower (unless you have heavily invested in upgrades); you benefit more from flipping it

Somehow I think that this game is not what ANet advertised, but considering it does not require a subscription I am OK with it; when a real RvR game will appear, I’ll make the switch, but until then GW2 will have to do.

V.

The problem is there will NEVER be another RvR game. No one is willing to copy the formula exactly as it was presented in DAoC. It’s just the sad fact that with MMOs being mainstream now, there are more “casuals” than “hardcore”. Back in DAoC’s prime, MMO gamers were a tiny subset of gamers and nearly 100% could be calssified “hardcore”. If given the chance to make beaucoup money or make a game with merit….companies will always pick the money.

Definitions related to this post:
Hardcore – players willing to put hours into creating a build and practicing it, who value something they have to work their kitten off to accomplish, making the accomplishment more important than the reward

Casual – players who’d rather something be easy to master, who don’t see the value in having to work to improve and would rather just be given a “reward” without having to really work for it

evilapprentice.6379:

Adaneshade.2409:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sebrent.3625:

LMAO. Elementalists seem so confused when they fight a thief and their boons suddenly disappear.

I had several people /w and /s me last night saying my build was a pain in the butt to fight against. A few said OP to which I simply replied “yes, I know it’s OP”.

So Impart – if you want the class to be less filled with noobs, answer my previous question. Please.

You can’t teach noobs, noobs want the easy way, they don’t want to learn they don’t want to practice they don’t want to improve

they want the other guy brought down to their level

Except that I’ve specifically requested to be taught in the masterful way that is getting FS to hit consistently. The silence on that subject however, is deafening. I think I see a tumbleweed going by too. I understand, you guys are probably just off somewhere being bad kitten with your secret knowledge you’ll boast about but not share.

I’ve already said that in this thread, simply turn your back to the target, you roll into their avatar making it easy to land both strikes.

Hey, could we get a Mod to sticky this please? Great information for new thieves in this thread.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sebrent.3625:

LMAO. Elementalists seem so confused when they fight a thief and their boons suddenly disappear.

I had several people /w and /s me last night saying my build was a pain in the butt to fight against. A few said OP to which I simply replied “yes, I know it’s OP”.

So Impart – if you want the class to be less filled with noobs, answer my previous question. Please.

You can’t teach noobs, noobs want the easy way, they don’t want to learn they don’t want to practice they don’t want to improve

they want the other guy brought down to their level

Faeyd.5094:

Had a lot of fun last night. for a single PvP bout I decided to use 22222 exclusively and always with haste. I had an AWESOME amount of trash talk coming my way, it was fantastic.

Did you actually kill anyone with that though? lol

Also keep in mind, if made so it would land 100% EVERY TIME you trigger it, the skill would be insanely OP in the hands of a player like myself or sebrent that know how to use it. An evading, UNBLOCKABLE, boon stripping attack that consequently hits like a truck is just.. well OP. The only reason it hasn’t been nerfed is because it takes a special skillset to be able to make it work effectively, keeping it out of the hands of the masses. I don’t want it nerfed, I like having my “ace in the hole” in a fight vs that guardian or boon stacking ele.

Slamz.5376:

Adaneshade.2409:

The issue here is that same engineer can just retreat back into his zerg for respite once his CDs are down and he needs to heal up.

Assuming he has timed things correctly, didn’t overcommit and saved a good escape ability or two to get back into cover. He’s the one who can clear all of his conditions and, 1 second later, have multiple stacks of multiple conditions on him again — something the duelist never has to worry about. 1 opponent can only throw so many conditions on you. 20 opponents can load you right back up.

The difference is as a veteran soloers, I’m self-sufficient, I don’t rely on boons or assistance from other players to be in combat.

And you don’t do anything to support them, either. 1 skilled duelist will surely defeat 1 skilled WvW player but 20 skilled WvW players will roflstomp 20 skilled duelists.

Duelists have little understanding of multi-class synergy because they have no practice at it. Wonder if you’re even aware of all of the different field/finisher combos and what they do? Especially fields and finishers that your allies can throw to play off of you. Any solo guardian can throw down a light field and then do a blast finisher for a little retaliation but only the good WvW players understand that you can coordinate these fields and finishers for mass effect, including things your class isn’t otherwise capable of doing. Combo fields do a couple of neat things when you’re solo. They do a lot of powerful, awesome things when there’s 20 of you — 20 people who know how to coordinate, that is, not 20 soloers. (20 soloers is the very definition of “mindless zerg”.)

Actually, yes I’m very aware of possible combo fields and finishers, duelists don’t just fight 1v1… we do 1v2, 1v3 and some of us even 1v4. In fact, people who duel tend to know MORE about every detail, every build, every aspect of every class in the game so there are no surprises. Surprises get you killed but knowing what combos to expect from the forces teamed against you can save your butt in a fight. Also, I’ve already pointed out no one exclusively does fight clubs, that’s just asinine to think.

The same people doing these fight clubs are the ones saving your zerg’s kitten when you get pinned down in an open field fight by a superior force. Simply because we can operate deep in their back-lines out of range of the support from our team mates to take out the important targets (their commander, their mesmers, etc). The player in a build that relies on boons or support coming from someone else to reach peak effectiveness could never do this.

bhagwad.4281:

Oldgrimm.8521:

maybe we can discuss this further when stealth changes is in full application,

regardless, we cant apply stealth either when you dodge block and evade

I’m talking about coming out of stealth not going into it…

The chances of this happening are next to none with the upcoming changes to stealth.

My point is, the extra effort prevents all but the most situationally aware players from even attempting S/D. In a class that’s dominated by the noobs in the game (I mean honestly who can’t admit that at least 50% of the terribads in the game pick thief because it’s so ezmode in pvp); I like to know there is something so difficult to do that most of the people QQing about EZMode thief don’t have a prayer of successfully using the skill.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sebrent.3625:

I was making an effort to use flanking strike last night even to remove regen and other boons and was able to land it reliably quite a bit of the time. I even used it as a bit of burst once (cast once for extra damage, not spammed it).

Sigh.

If you have to come to the boards to point out how pleased you are that a skill worked as listed, that’s a problem.

I’m glad you like FS, I’m not trying to drag your opinion of S/D down – it’ll be a broken spec to me however until FS works correctly every time. And mind you, I just rolled S/D to see how good it would be against bunkers (and its actually pretty good – it’d be excellent if FS worked correctly tho)

It does work every time, if you know HOW to use it. We don’t want just any noob to be ABLE to use that skill. Atm FS is the only attack we have that separates noobs from vets. If you see someone landing FS, you know they are pretty skilled. Let the noobs keep their P/D and D/D builds.

Faeyd.5094:

12k is very unlikely – I’ve run a stupid build where you stack 18 might and have executioner and use infiltration runes (10% vs targets with less than 50% health) and I hit glass that are under 50% for 13-14k in sPvP on a BS.

The damage in sPvP is WAAAAAY lower than in WvW, this is a pretty well known fact.

Slamz.5376:

Adaneshade.2409:

The operative term in the 5v1 argument is “equally skilled”. Do you honestly believe that players who spend the entirety of their PvP experience relying on support from other players and/or superiority in numbers to win out in a situation could ever be “equally skilled” to someone who focuses primarily on 1vX fights and trains to fight them?

Yes.

Your mistake is in thinking that 1v1 is skill and 20v20 isn’t. I guarantee I need more skill and better timing playing a front line engineer who is liable, at any moment, to be targeted by 20 people than you do by playing footsie with 1 or 2 other players. A skilled support Guardian is worth three duelists in a fight for the lord room of a keep. The duelists will all be downed and stomped while the properly specced WvW characters are still up, fighting and supporting each other — something duelists don’t have any practice at or ever build for.

The issue here is that same engineer can just retreat back into his zerg for respite once his CDs are down and he needs to heal up. Soloers don’t get that luxury, we have to learn to “dig ourselves out” of a bad situation on our own.

And what is the properly specced business? Do you think duelists run glass cannon builds? LAWL! that’s a good way to lose every single fight. Even on my thief i run 3k armor and 19k hp. The difference is as a veteran soloers, I’m self-sufficient, I don’t rely on boons or assistance from other players to be in combat.

Rednik.3809:

Adaneshade.2409:

You are aware that most of these people you see dueling ALSO do solo roaming in WvW right? We’re well aware of the fact that enemies add in randomly during fights. But our enhance ability to track and counter multiple opponents simultaneously makes for MUCH stronger PvPers.

All roaming WvW duties (aka yak sniping, keep portal suppressing, camp raiding and scouting) can be performed by 2-4 upleveled players in quest greens and with zero l33t dU3l experience. Sorry for ruin your shiny world. And yes, with almost same efficiency.

ou’re absolutely right noobs in greens CAN flip camps and take out yaks. I never said that is what solo roaming is about. I PvP, no interest in that stuff. What many of us soloers do is harass the enemy zergs, kiting 3 or 4 players out who are kitteny enough to think themselves a match for us and take them out. Reducing the enemy zerg by that amount. With the average zerg being maybe 40, 4 players represents a 10% loss in their forces before they even make it to their objective.

Once they DO engage we’re in the back of the zerg destroying their support classes hiding in the back essentially paving the way for our own zerg to steamroll theirs.

Kjendar.6459:

If you put GvG in a sPvP format then you would get a lot of these people not going. All I ever read about is how people get good drops in GvG. I mean really I wish Anet would do something about people killing each other then letting them res so they can do it again.

Until they give us the same number of build options in sPvP as we have in WvW, it will never be a satisfactory substitute.

Gaudrath.6725:

Interesting question. Depends on what kind of skills we’re talking about.
I find that people who train in controlled 1vsX fights tend to develop their skills only for that particular kind of fight.

Real WvW is very rarely like that, as I am sure people know (hence fight clubs). WvW fights are seldom the same numbers-wise at the beginning and at the end, meaning an efficient WvW player has to develop a different set of skills if they really want to be as successful as possible.
Being able to predict the ebb and flow of large-scale fights is different than focusing on only a few opponents. It doesn’t matter if you can win against five less skilled players at the same time after a five minute fight when 30 players just roll over you in a few seconds and you didn’t see it coming. It doesn’t matter that you can win any 1vs1 duel if you don’t learn how to work with other players.

Also, the attitude that people in zergs are somehow dumb or unskilled is completely wrong. Yes, you will always have less skilled players or young kids or very occasionally people who are in their own world. But most players stick to big groups for a very valid reason – not because it’s easier but because it is a necessity. Not because they are unskilled but because skill means little if you get caught out alone in the open by 20 angry dudes.

So no. Fight club training is not that useful skill wise. That is, I can see it being far more useful for sPvP than WvW. Although even in sPvP teamwork is far more important than awesome dueling skills. It’s just that kind of game.

Train in siege placement instead, that’s more in tune with what’s really going on in a WvW fight. Train group flanking maneuvers. Portal bombing. Efficient teamwork. That’s going to make a real impact in a WvW fight, not who can down the most people when in a strictly controlled environment.
And best of all, while players need a fight club to train in 1vsX fights, they can train all of the above while actually making a contribution to their team.

Or if they’re so intrigued by the prospect of 1vsX, do what real roamers do and get out there on their own, come hell or high water. Instead of hiding in some remote corner somewhere and pretending they’re just the best there is.

You are aware that most of these people you see dueling ALSO do solo roaming in WvW right? We’re well aware of the fact that enemies add in randomly during fights. But our enhance ability to track and counter multiple opponents simultaneously makes for MUCH stronger PvPers.

Slazarian CZE.9874:

I made my thief build especially for some average resistance to stay longer on battlefield. I have 1400 toughness (full exotic) which I think is quite high for this class and yet I have been destroyed by some some glass canon hitting me by Steal 8000, CnD 5500, BS 10200(1vs1 match). I never experienced this with my previous build with 900 t. If +500 t. makes no difference what is the point to have it? If I had my previous build i would be BS by 12000? steal 10000?
Other side is hitting someone in light armor (power 3000, critic. 90%) and doing him 3000 damage by BS. I found that I got Higher damage on warriors then on mesmers or necros. STRANGE INDEED!?

1400 toughness is only like 14% more reduction in damage than you would have in FULL berserker gear. So that 8000 would have been around 9.3k on a full berserker gear. Nothing unusual about that. Saving 1.3k dmg on that attack, which seems like a tiny amount, but it adds up quickly in combat.

3100 armor is roughly 45% reduction in all direct damage.

Gaudrath.6725:

Adaneshade.2409:

Gaudrath.6725:

I love catching these awesome megaduelists with a group, it certainly is entertaining watching the little pink bubbles of rage float off their smoking corpses once they get stomped into the ground. :p

Duelists -> sPvP is that way. And kids, those videos you see on the youtubez… it’s called video editing and they never, ever show you the real story. For example after MegaAwesomeDude just totally destroys those five players in the video, they never show you how he was caught by their 30 friends three seconds later and got brutalized with an angry yak.

Ok, so 30 players managed to kill a soloer
/surprised face

The fact that MegaAwesomeDude just reamed those 5 proves that practiced PvP players are superior to non-practiced.

Now go hide in your 30 man and let the real men talk.

And of course, you just missed the point. People watch those videos and think WvW can be like that.

It can’t and it won’t. Those videos never show that such fights happen one out of ten times or less, usually when an experienced and decked out player with a good build catches a group of inexperienced ones with possibly sub-par builds and/or equipment.
In reality, there is no way equally skilled players can lose 5 vs 1. So basically the MegaAwesomeDude is putting up videos of him killing total noobs and pretending this is a normal occurrence.

WvW is not about dueling, it is about massive teamwork. Regardless of skill, players are an asset only if they work for the team. Doesn’t matter if they run with a zerg or if they roam and harass supply lines, or if they’re yakslapping to get supply moving.

But if they stand in jumping puzzles or in some remote spot with their duelist buddies pretending they’re some kind of “real men”, the only thing they’re doing is wasting slots.

Which is why I think ANet should finally introduce frikkin’ dueling and arena play so that we who actually want to play WvW don’t have to scratch our heads wondering where the heck is everybody when enemy zergs come knocking on the front door and half our force is off e*-peening somewhere.

The operative term in the 5v1 argument is “equally skilled”. Do you honestly believe that players who spend the entirety of their PvP experience relying on support from other players and/or superiority in numbers to win out in a situation could ever be “equally skilled” to someone who focuses primarily on 1vX fights and trains to fight them?

My S/D tank guide (build updated as of 3-19-2013)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Looking-for-a-survivable-tanky-WvW-build/first#post1195052

danbuter.2314:

I suspect the OP does not play thief and just gets stomped by them, and he’s suggesting this nerf to help him win.

I believe he actually believes this to be a BUFF of some sort to the heal. While this may be true for whatever build he’s running, it’s equally untrue for most of the builds already utilizing SoM.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

Apparently you have to wait 3 secs to re-enter stealth after back…. oh wait YOU ALREADY DO!

10% karma/gold/badges/xp/mf per orb. Everyone starts out the match with their own orb and the bonus from it.

Really, though, you’re in for more losses than wins in a full berserker suit. There simply is no way around that.

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

You make the false assumption that everyone with dagger offhand uses a stealth spamming play-style; when, in fact, most do not. Most using that set already break stealth with an attack, and any “stacking” they do is simply stacking of the duration which has not been affected as they never actually “LEAVE” stealth to do that.

Gaudrath.6725:

I love catching these awesome megaduelists with a group, it certainly is entertaining watching the little pink bubbles of rage float off their smoking corpses once they get stomped into the ground. :p

Duelists -> sPvP is that way. And kids, those videos you see on the youtubez… it’s called video editing and they never, ever show you the real story. For example after MegaAwesomeDude just totally destroys those five players in the video, they never show you how he was caught by their 30 friends three seconds later and got brutalized with an angry yak.

Ok, so 30 players managed to kill a soloer
/surprised face

The fact that MegaAwesomeDude just reamed those 5 proves that practiced PvP players are superior to non-practiced.

Now go hide in your 30 man and let the real men talk.

Sebrent.3625:

If you combine the damage of the two hits, I don’t believe it’s 20% less.

I concede that your other points are good though.

It could be possible for it to stay the same, I’m just wary of it becoming the new “noobseeker” spam button. I’d hate to see sword go that way.

Right, I don’t want any initiative-based skills in the S/D set to become default dps spam. I’ve played S/D as my primary build since launch and am perfectly happy with where it is. I’m afraid any changes, no matter how good the intent, will simply either break it, or make it too accessible to less experienced players.

EasymodeX.4062:

swinsk.6410:

Sure, I am wrong. It’s a dual skill. Flanking strike still has no daze, you were refering to tactical strike and said flanking strike.

Not exactly. He said: I run dagger offset not for dancing dagger, but for flanking strike. My only use for stealth is the occasional daze. Meaning I already have revealed debuff EVERY TIME I stealth nothing changes.

He runs S/D for Flanking Strike. This establishes the connection between his statement and the previous “all /D affected” (and he clarifies that he uses S/D for FS, which may be an unnecessary comment).

Separately, he states that Daze is the only reason why he uses the stealth in the S/D set, and therefore he always has revealed anyways.

There’s no reason to automatically relate the two statements. Although I’d still give it a 33% chance he meant to say Tactical Strike, I don’t think it’s guaranteed. I think there’s a reasonable 2/3s chance that he just threw in extraneous explanation for why he uses S/D (perhaps to reinforce the fact that it is not “just for CND stealth”).

Correct, I said Flanking Strike, and meant Flanking Strike (unblockable, boon stripping, evasion attack, NOT the daze)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

swinsk.6410:

Adaneshade.2409:

I’ve never run out of init, and I’ve fought for 10 minutes in a single duel before. Simply don’t use that much for infiltrator’s strike, init regens faster than ya use it.

I would hope in a duel you don’t run out of init.

because we all care about duels here…

You only ran out of Init if you try to avoid every possible damage that you would sustain. That’s a wrong way to play a thief. Often times, you need to gamble and take some hits to deal the maximum amount of damage possible. In my experience, I’m always on top in a duel situation and the only stealth skill I use is Hide in Shadows.

Inf Strike/Shadow Return drives anyone bonkers when dueling with a thief.

This, except it’s not so much a gamble. I have 3k armor and 19k hp, even with the full burst rotation, a GS warrior isn’t just going to “flatten” me(as swinsk put it).

Your “facts” are inaccurate. I actually play a S/D thief as a main, not a warrior.

I do not now, nor will I ever utilize chain stealthing. The same can be said of any player who truly understands how to use the weapon set. Stealth spam is simply a crutch for those that make frequent mistakes.

Point still stands, anyone clueless enough to make that argument shouldn’t even be posting in thief forums.

Congrats on winning the spelling bee though :-P

You are aware that you don’t get Flanking Strike UNLESS you have dagger offhand right? Mr. GENIOUS?

That statement just goes to prove my case about how little you actually understand thieves.

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789:

Makes zero sense. If you get hit with bulls CND won’t save you. If you CND chain him he could whirling axe your face. What your saying is literally just making up for bad play. If your out of stun breaks instead of chaining CND kittening run. Switch to sword and inf strike. You now have a stun break. Is this not sensible? If you cannot weapon swap deselect the warrior and HS away creating distance allowing you to pull yourself together. Simple.

You didn’t read what I wrote. If your stun break is down and you are trying to “avoid” the bulls charge, it will be significantly harder now because you can’t stealth as often. You will be vulnerable longer and nothing will save you from bulls when you stun breaks are down. Previously, you could CND off someone (not even the warrior) and run away. Now, you won’t be able to CND for 3s and you will die.

That’s all I am trying to say. Obviously you don’t get it.

There are plenty of counters to every ability, even stealth. With this change in effect the thief loses a huge portion of his survivability because he is exposed.

Sure you can keep the infi strike alive for a bit, when you run out of init, then what?

Warrior has plenty of other abilities too besides bulls and hb.

Everyone who plays a thief knows that with this change in effect that thieves will be much more vulnerable in spvp.

I’ve never run out of init, and I’ve fought for 10 minutes in a single duel before. Simply don’t use that much for infiltrator’s strike, init regens faster than ya use it.

See, that’s where you are wrong. I run dagger offset not for dancing dagger, but for flanking strike. My only use for stealth is the occasional daze. Meaning I already have revealed debuff EVERY TIME I stealth nothing changes.

What I’m saying is most encounters vs a GS warrior already don’t require stealth. And this particular shadowste kitten pammable. Unlike dagger builds, S/D builds use their initiative SOLELY for utility, so I ALWAYS have it up, timer about to drop? Just return and bounce back instantaneously ….. literally. Shadow return never drops.

Laika.8795:

Adaneshade.2409:

I play S/D primarily and haven’t had a bit of trouble with flanking strike landing. ESPECIALLY vs a bunker which is a very sedentary build by design in order to maintain control of a point.

It is almost impossible to land, w/o a shadow step, on a fleeing bunker. This is the silly nature of the skill, it’s a “flanking strike” but will always attempt to get to the opposite side of the target, even if you are already flanking.

It really should orient itself to your target’s flank (i.e. if you’re coming from the rear, roll forward instead of attempting to go around) rather than maintaining the same pathing under all circumstances and doing contrary to what the tooltip says (Stab your foe in the back).

Refer to my post above for the shadowstep/steal less solution.