Guild Wars 2

Lucky Shot.8740:

pita spoon.5708:

Do rangers have a skill that stealths them.. ive seen it a few times while fighting a ranger and he disappears??

Rangers have access to stealth in 3 ways.
1) Camoflague, a trait that kicks in at a certain level of health.
2) Pet skills, pigs steal. The Siamoth can get moa feathers for stealth.
3) Superior Runes of Infiltration. Any class can use this which kicks in cloak at a certain health point

There is some trait that makes them stealth if they are CCed (I know Daze..maybe any stun??) as well. I know this from fighting them on my S/D thief.

The key to using those abilities is not to get your entire group in them.

I’d much rather see mechanics changed to make it so a smaller group has a chance to kill a larger one at 4 to 1 odds or so, if well played.

Even forgetting past games and what they did. There was no AOE cap in BETA for GW2 and battles around keeps and towers were much more dynamic because of it. People were forced to spread out and to dodge out of aoes, it made for better gameplay. The current situation requires no skill to totally mitigate AOE, just clump up ftw.

There is no dodging in zerg vs zerg, no individualized thought process just clump up and spam your light fields/blast finishers and your ranged attacks.

kasandaro.8124:

Adaneshade.2409:

Sifu.6527:

Anyone know why thief dagger is the only melee range weapon not to cleave?
We have 100B Warrior cleaving and Whriling Attack hitting everyone in its path. Not sure why…

Thief is the only class that actually melees with dagger mainhand (ele doesn’t count since it’s all spells) the trade off is higher dps/burst but hitting only one target.

Nit-pick: Necromancer’s Dagger 1 chain (the most common power weapon for Necro) is a range 130 that also doesn’t cleave. It’s actually higher damage than our Dagger 1 chain (940 vs. 760) though there is a slight animation delay and no conditions.

The rest of the Necro.Dagger skills are 600 range (with annoying cooldowns).

I stand corrected, but this only further proves my point since the only other main hand dagger melee doesn’t cleave either.

I agree that World Exploration should not require WvW. Exploration is a very PvE-esque concept anyway. They should, however, add something required for legendaries that better represents the “spirit” of WvW. (X number of keep takes/defenses, X number of supply camp flips, etc etc). Something like that, in addition to badges (remove any way to obtain these other than player kills) would better represent mastery of WvW.

Cactus.2710:

You guys need to go play sPvP or arenas … you don’t belong in a team oriented activity. The whole idea of WvW is for all players to have an opportunity to make a significant contribution to the overall server score without encouraging them to prioritize individual glory over group objectives. There are other venues that do pretty much exactly what you want … quit trying to ruin this one.

Does nothing to ruin anything, more features is better. If you don’t want to see killspam, I’m sure there would be an option to turn it off. It provides tactical info though that is invaluable to strike teams in WvW.

Knowing where the kill occurred lets you trace teams small enough to not show orange swords, and deal with them.

This just adds another layer of complexity which even the people like you who prefer the higher team-based strategy can use.

funky fat thighs.1267:

Sifu.6527:

Adaneshade.2409:

Sifu.6527:

Yuujin.1067:

In terms of raw, burst single target DPS, you can’t beat a dagger. You will always deal more damage with a dagger/dagger thief. However, sword attacks cleave so you’ll see quite a bit more damage with your regular old auto attack on a sword/dagger thief which will make you feel extremely powerful in face to face skirmishes assuming you don’t die incredibly fast, but even with that your damage is not on par with that of a dagger/dagger thief.

Technically, sword/dagger offers a tiny bit more survivability than dagger/dagger because of the condition removal/stun break attached to Infiltrator Strike, and the blind/daze attached to your tactical strike. Your Infiltrator Strike also immobilizes targets which makes landing your Cloak and Dagger significantly easy.

With dagger/dagger, you trade that for just straight up damage.

Anyone know why thief dagger is the only melee range weapon not to cleave?
We have 100B Warrior cleaving and Whriling Attack hitting everyone in its path. Not sure why…

Thief is the only class that actually melees with dagger mainhand (ele doesn’t count since it’s all spells) the trade off is higher dps/burst but hitting only one target.

Our highest burst rotation consist of 3 abiltiies. Of which, 2 of them do not come from the dagger main hand.

Mug is a trait. CnD is offhand dagger. Backstab is the only mainhand dagger ability in that chain. The view of thief’s burst is taking a holistic view of the class and what offhand weapons and traits provide the best dps.

We have the perception that the dagger has the highest burst but in reality it doesn’t. The warrior mainhand axe has as much dps as the thief mainhand dagger. In the meanwhile, their axe mainhand burst skill does as much damage as backstab. Additionaly, axe cleaves thus potientially doing the same dps as a thief but hitting up to 3 targets.

In my opinion, dagger needs to cleave like all other melee weapon but keep backstab single target.

It’s a strong argument but I would beg to differ on one thing – in a single target fight, a Thief will be able to deal much more dps than an axe towards the end due to Heartseeker. Whereas warrior are limited by their burst cooldown, Thieves can continually spam this skill resulting in substantial burst damage. It’s also worth noting that a Thief can trait into many damage multipliers, Executioner being key to a D/x surpassing most other player’s DPS. Granted it’s situational, but in my opinion it puts Thieves slightly ahead of other classes when it comes to single targets.

This is exactly what I said…..Dagger has higher single target dps than other weaponsets, therefore to make it cleave with the same DPS output would be simply way too OP.

There was no score in DAoC, but PLENTY of rivalry and competition. I mean people were such fanatics about one realm or another that RL physical fights broke out over it.

Forestgreen.7981:

I don’t think I’ve seen the speed hack yet, but I do recall an ability that lets thieves move at +50%! in stealth. Haven’t tried this out but that’s above what swiftness provides.

It’s bugged and only increases to 33% if out of combat and the 50% increase is over in combat speed (currently). However, stealth then shadowstep + HS spam can easily cover that amount of ground that quickly.

Just stop following commanders, make a group of people you know, it’s the only way to ensure an elite group anyway. As soon as someone in your group turns on a commander tag, you get a bunch of pugs stuck to you and it’s impossible to use any kind of stealth tactic.

Sifu.6527:

Yuujin.1067:

In terms of raw, burst single target DPS, you can’t beat a dagger. You will always deal more damage with a dagger/dagger thief. However, sword attacks cleave so you’ll see quite a bit more damage with your regular old auto attack on a sword/dagger thief which will make you feel extremely powerful in face to face skirmishes assuming you don’t die incredibly fast, but even with that your damage is not on par with that of a dagger/dagger thief.

Technically, sword/dagger offers a tiny bit more survivability than dagger/dagger because of the condition removal/stun break attached to Infiltrator Strike, and the blind/daze attached to your tactical strike. Your Infiltrator Strike also immobilizes targets which makes landing your Cloak and Dagger significantly easy.

With dagger/dagger, you trade that for just straight up damage.

Anyone know why thief dagger is the only melee range weapon not to cleave?
We have 100B Warrior cleaving and Whriling Attack hitting everyone in its path. Not sure why…

Thief is the only class that actually melees with dagger mainhand (ele doesn’t count since it’s all spells) the trade off is higher dps/burst but hitting only one target.

Beyondthelol.9504:

I swear that every person who defends the thiefs blatant overpoweredness does so because they themselves play a thief.

How about we have a new rule – if you play a thief you are not allowed to comment on if they are OP or not

Conversely, no one that QQs about them has ever actually played one seriously enough to really learn what the strengths and weaknesses are. Instead you get the mobile, bursty, tanky, regenerating, permastealth build posts where people insist on picking mutally exclusive traits and lumping into one “OP THIEF” thread.

Typically, I keep a shadow return up 100% of the time vs a warrior, for this very reason. It takes precedence over autoattack.

kash.9213:

Darxio.5672:

Oh don’t get me wrong, it’s fantastic in a real 1v1.

But in WvW, you don’t usually have the time to dedicate to the finesse, intricacies and beauty of combat. It’s do your combo and get out, especially when you have a commander tag on you like I do. Paints a ‘Kill me now’ target on a class that doesn’t want to be targeted.

Now if it hit 3 targets like the autoattack did, I’d be all over it like white on rice for WvW fights, even if it fails the back hit.

It’s easier and takes less “finesse” then backstab really, I think what shadowkat means has more to do with timing a counter or control rather then just setting up for a spike hit. If you’re s/d you definitely get used that feel that ‘now is the time’ to land tactical strike, or flanking strike, or even #1 when one of your quickeness goes off. Especially in the case of tactical strike, you don’t want to waste that stealth unless you’re doing damage, plus interrupting or locking down a siege operator.

In the case of flanking strike, and let me say this in my manliest voice, think of it as hoola hooping, you have the hips and rhythm to do it or you don’t. After awhile you learn when to use it, and when to turn, hold down pan camer, or just leave it alone during it. After an even longer period of use, you might even learn to use it as an evade plus reposition in a team fight or an evade plus target change. Just use it.

Well spoken. Yes this is in essence what I’m trying to say.

Darxio.5672:

Oh don’t get me wrong, it’s fantastic in a real 1v1.

But in WvW, you don’t usually have the time to dedicate to the finesse, intricacies and beauty of combat. It’s do your combo and get out, especially when you have a commander tag on you like I do. Paints a ‘Kill me now’ target on a class that doesn’t want to be targeted.

Now if it hit 3 targets like the autoattack did, I’d be all over it like white on rice for WvW fights, even if it fails the back hit.

I can’t speak to commander tags, but I do utilize all of those thought processes even in zerg combat. Perhaps it’s due to my having a build that can’t be just killed on a whim, too much armor rating for that.
I know most thieves run a bit less substantial of a character and taking a hit is a bad idea for them, but for me it’s simply a calculated risk that pays off very well most of the time.

Add me, and send a whisper anytime. I’m literally ALWAYS willing to duel anyone.

Darxio.5672:

With Haste, flanking Strike can be a monster for those 4 seconds.

After that, prepare to fly to the right half the time.

Flanking Strike is best saved for PvE or those rare 1v1s that may show up. Though every now and then I accidentally initiate a fight with sword/dagger since I was using sword’s shadow step for mobility and forgot to swap back to dagger. I tough it out and fight, and sometimes I’m surprised by what flanking strike can do.

But tactical strike is and never will be on par with backstab, even with the stun, so it makes me sad every day.

S/D is not a brute force dps set, it’s about finesse and actually timing abilities.
That daze from tactical strike that’s just “meh” when just randomly spammed becomes WOW when you start using it to interrupt heals from your opponent, revives, and stomps.

I’ve been trying ton convince the thief community for months that FS is actually really good and can be used reliably. Practice with it ALOT and you’ll start to see the pattern to it. Very rarely miss with it now unless my opponent actually dodges. Also helps to keep in mind that after the first strike you again have control of your character, allows for minor adjustments to ensure hit #2 lands.

Hey Colhearth…… WHO DA BEAAAAAAR?!

Hope you’re still on George, cause I’ll duel ya.

Pichichi.1975:

Shadowkat was once iRez… traitor </3

Awwww, I miss you too :-(

You guys should come join me ^.^

Dria.2064:

Ok I am using gf’s account just so I can publically say this, Shadowkat good fights 1-1 much better than I expected an RE member to do. I do feel kind of sorry for the warrior who jumped on me while we talked though, poor soul. Fiction/Pirateking/guy who hates RE please stop censoring my speech anet. Forum bans are for sissies.

Thanks for the fights man, good stuff! Look me up anytime.

Log on fiction, let’s go ^.^

Still waiting on someone to whisper me where duels are or to get some started…..

Indeed, and I’m even from [RE] /gasp

I’ll represent Kaineng for some 1v1 if you guys want. To say that all of us are bad a PvP is asinine. Just bring your big boy sword :-P

Edit: Shoot me a whisper in game to set it up.

I currently am running a P/V/T armor and weapons with T/Pre/P jewelry. In a full on tank setup (3160 armor rating) with S/D + D/D. Much the same as Jakkson, with the exception that I don’t need to be as mobile because I can take a hit.
Still able to pull 12k + bursts with D/D even in full out tank build because the majority of WvW for some reason insists on going full GC.
And the added CC with S/D makes for a crazy good combo, just gotta get good with swapping as you’ll actually use both sets.

Dainank.1308:

They should make special abilities, which can be only earned in WvWvW!

Guild Wars 2 should make a special WvWvW Leveling up system where by you can only lv up your WvWvW level by playing WvWvW (Like Pvp). Guild Wars 2 should then create some exclusive abilities for WvWvW which you can only use in WvWvW, to unlock these exclusive abilities you need to lv up your WvWvW lv, just like in Pve and PvP. You could call these points Prestige points instead of skill points for example!

See Feb. Patch info……..

lorndarken.3702:

really ? people are complaining about getting hit while in stealth ? seriously ? i bet any of you people who complain about getting hit in stealth would be saying it’s a learn to play issue like you all have done in the past to people that would come here and complain about the whole perma stealth that thief’s do 99% of the time in pvp /wvw . if the necro was using dagger which most likely he was and using the 2nd skill there is a solution to that if you are in stealth , just simply move a few steps back so that same necro can not life steal from you anymore .

This!! 1000x this. We thieves have easy access to one of the most awesome mechanics in game atm. Learn to use things like running through the person channeling the skill or doing a dodge roll right after stealth to mitigate most of the channeled ability.

Lofat.2406:

Question… Are you specd to “blind on stealth”? Just curious if that would stop the channel or not when you go stealth.

Blind doesn’t appear stop a channeled attack, just makes one tick of it miss.

Kruhljak.2705:

Yes. An AoE skill doesn’t even need a target to do its thing (there may be exceptions, of course). Stealth just makes you invisible; you don’t cease to be there.

The OP appears to be describing a cycled or channeled spell effect that will continue to cycle through its routine whether the target remains visible or not.

On the face of it, IMO, stealth should break targeting, and any effect that would logically need an active target to continue its effect. Then again, I haven’t plotted out how overpowered that might be—and it very well might be.

Neither do single target abilities….. just spamming your #1 attack while constanly turning facing will often either kill or force a stealthed thief to bail.

And shadow refuge is like a huge beacon for “ATTACK HERE”. At least 3 out of every 4 thieves I kill I do it while they are in shadow refuge as they are forced to stay in it for full duration and take your punishment, or they will have to suffer the revealed debuff.

stinkypants.8419:

A single cooldown is shared by all sigils.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil

Yeah, but we are talking about a sigil + a trait….

I’ve played every class in the game now pretty extensively in PvP and I can honestly say vs a truly good opponent, the thief has some of the most difficulty actually winning in any 1vs1 encounter. (With the notable exception being the “training wheels” build of P/D bleeds. In which case, just walk away, they can’t catch you utilizing that weaponset, force the swap to mobiliy set then put pressure on them.)

Those that complain run PvE builds with little experience in the other classes. It is impossible to counter something you don’t fully understand without first hand experience using the mechanics you intend to counter.

Snoxx.7943:

SilverWF.4789:

Also, this game have nearly 1 long speed boost: mount…

Good point! Where other games have mount, GW2 has swiftness buff or movement speed signets.

33% swiftness is the fastest regular way to move around, just like riding a mount was the fastest way to move in various other games (or speed classes, like bard/minstrel in DAoC).

In other words: swiftness and mount are basically the same, just visually different.

And thus, running around stealthed with 33% swiftness (or 25% speed signet, or even the 50% speed trait) is basically the same as riding a mount while stealthed in other games. Needless to say, mounted stealth never was possible in any game, for a good reason.

Even in WoW with all the new speed increases to stealth, you have no chance to catch up to a mounted enemy while stealthed. Things are different in GW2, I can run away with 33% swiftness, but that invisible thief following me is catching up.

Can you run away from a thief? No!
Can a thief run away from you? Yes!
Do you think this is fair?

Fair or not, this was the intended design as has been stated several times even in these forums by devs. They want the thief to be slippery and very difficult to pin down.

Every class has builds capable of killing any thief or forcing them to run, the fact that players choose not to use those builds is no one’s fault but their own.

The only builds a thief has at the moment which are any good vs a build with adequate defense also lack the crazy mobility you mention here.

Arcalas.9368:

backstab and bleeding thieves are not noobs but heartseeker spamming thieves are noobs cuz u have not skill and all u do is spam heartseeker. But i would try and pistol/pistol build with sword/dagger build.

Yeah, it’s a noob build, but can’t kill anyone who isn’t a noob. HS spam is altogether a L2P issue, both for the thief and the person actually dying to that.

Chamone.6890:

Has anyone actually seen any of the “placeholder models” yet? For me everyone still appears with all their normal gear showing…

You won’t see it unless you are running an incredible slow machine. Placeholder models are for slow loading times client side. “Culling” (in quotes because what we are calling culling isn’t actually culling) is a server side issue.

LameFox.6349:

SilverWF.4789:

This is WWW! There is no place to carebear things (puzzles, POIs, etc.)
Dislike it? Do not play WWW anymore – you will free room for more useful player – who will fight, not hiding at the JP.

Unless they’ve removed WvW from the requirements for map completion since I last checked, it’s not really any surprise that players end up there who don’t actually like WvW.

Pro-Tip: The JP has nothing in it that contributes to world completion…..

1. I’d only consider the person actually dying to HS spam a noob >.< Our class design punishes spamming badly. Making them waste all their initiative then putting their lights out is crazy easy.

1. Backstab is actually REALLY hard to pull off vs a target who actually moves around during a fight. Ofc if they go all WoW style and just stand there….well they ahd it coming. So, most definitely not noob.

1. Well, even I have to admit this build is really broken, however you can stalemate it pretty easily with condition purging and good healing, two things no one should enter any form of PvP without.

@Karolis – People who run noob killing builds generally get frustrated by someone who runs a real PvP build….

SB is great, but it lacks burst as well kitten D. This is why I’ve started to run P/P as second set in my build. The on demand daze + burst from it is great in certain fights where you get a limited amount of dps time on the boss (some fractals mechanics).

No they don’t, I’ve had both proc for a total of 5 secs haste before….

My best guess is that they will just reset elo to 0 and allow matches to go with the current match-ups from this past week. This will create a large jump afterwards with the servers that absolutely dominate their tier bumped to T1-T2; the closer matches below that; and the servers who were stomped going to lower tiers. Without the willy-nilly server transfers going on, the matches should stabilize in a couple of weeks.

Sounds as if small groups like the change and the zerglings don’t. Maybe try running smaller groups?

Pick up the Shadow Arts skill available even at just 10 points in. Purges a condition upon stealthing and every 3 seconds you remain stealthed. Also, make use of Sword main hand. #2 ability clears a condition as well.

Johje Holan.4607:

Problem with making the maps bigger is that I know people who think the maps are big enough or too big. They don’t like having to run far.

So how about this. Make one/some of the maps bigger and more spread out. That way you could choose which size map you want to play on.

I would even say go a step farther and add a 5th map similar to DAoC’s “Aggramon” no objectives on the map. The only thing there is PvP in true, roaming, open field fashion.

It appears as if the OP is asking for the “best” thief build. The fact is, every thief build is equally good once practiced enough to hit its skill cap. Thief has been blessed with the ability to use any weapon set and trait loadout effectively.
As for top % tPvP players, you’ll find the thief is very poorly represented as our class tends to be easily counterable by truly competent players.

johnnycosmic.9130:

On my server its mind boggling that there can be 12 or so people loafing around spawn or just wandering off aimlessly and just walk right by the event guy. If people were serious about getting points in wvw that event should started any time we don’t own the first tower in other borderlands.

Yet that’s how it is on CD no one gives a care about that event. Our two enemys towers forever stay untouched.

I hope one day using siege razer will become an integral part of our over all strategy, so that anytime we don’t have those first towers commanders and people alike will jump over and quickly cap the tower with siege razer then go back to what they where doing like second nature.

Your assumption is that those people “loafing about” or “walking right by” actually care whether or not those points are captured……

He asked for help with understanding thief gameplay. Mostly what I see is “QQ I died to a thief” on threads.
I answer every post I see with legitimate questions like “How do I improve?”. Has nothing to do with being an"expert" or not.

PS. - As you can see, most people who replied stated they weren’t “experts” but were still willing to help as best they could.

Pendragon.8735:

Adaneshade.2409:

I can see how someone that actually cares about the server rankings would not see the point of what the OP is looking for. There are many of us, though, that play WvW simply for the roaming PvP and care nothing for the ranking system or objectives.

Seems a dumb way to play when you are never going to get a fair fight. Roamers lose to bigger numbers, whine zerg, but seem fine when its them with the numbers, ganking smaller numbers. If you have 5 and run into 8, is that a fair roam fight? Probably only if you win. The odds of however many you have, be it 3, 5, or 8 running into a perfectly even fight, that is completed without more from either side interfering in WvW is miniscule. But yet they still just bleat endlessly on these forums about it as if this is not understood.

Believe Colin talked about instituting custom arena style matches down the line, hopefully, and that can be the solution and end of the pollution about this.

DaoC and WAR had dedicated roaming groups because the core mechanics of WvW in those games were left wanting, I would say failed actually, and many didn’t care about it. That is not the case in GW2.

I agree that zergs are a necessity in the meta and a part of the game that should not go away completely. However, I have never, nor will I ever complain about dying to larger numbers.
Part of being in a roaming group is picking your battles, outnumbered 2 to 1 is pretty doable, even in this game, much more than that and just avoiding the fight all together is more prudent. The OP was saying that he never sees other groups of equivalent size roaming (5v8 I’d consider a perfectly fair fight regardless of the side I was on).

I, nor anyone truly into roaming PvP, will be interested in anything done inside the sPvP world. The maps are simply too small and confining to truly use tactical flanking, extending, and positioning; the penalty for death is too light as the run back is not long enough; and the sides are always evenly matched (number-wise)

The truly skilled PvPers don’t want it to be fair all the time. Nothing quite beats the feeling of defeating a much larger force due to your group’s PvP prowess.

I can see how someone that actually cares about the server rankings would not see the point of what the OP is looking for. There are many of us, though, that play WvW simply for the roaming PvP and care nothing for the ranking system or objectives. T he way we play the game is no less valid than that of those who dedicate all their time and resources to trying to rank their server up in WvW, just different.

My suggestion to the OP is to just give it some time. Both DAoC and WAR were extremely zergy in their early days. It wasn’t until the game had matured that the elite roaming groups really took off.