Guild Wars 2

Yeah, the loss of cleanse on torch is rough. Eternity is probably a must-have, given the level of burns in an average match (even worse now with Berserker added to the mix).

I did play standard condi during the last BWE, and while I found it more competitive than expected, there were definitely times when I felt like I was bringing a knife to a gun fight (there was one revenant in particular that comes to mind—felt like I was hitting a brick wall…that then grew arms and squashed me like a bug). Chrono doesn’t bring a lot to the condi’s kit generally in terms of synergy, but the shatter cadence, illusion generation, movespeed and shatter speed all amp up the guns on the shatter condi a lot.

It’ll be tough to get the hang of it for sure, but I think chrono just brings more punch to the fight, which we’re really gonna need against those new OP tank classes :P

Frankly, the swap back is just icing to make up for the loss of the swap in the first place. I can’t think of a gap closer as inhibited as the current version, and the change to the flow is just the last straw.
Making it a regular gap closer (honestly, thinking of it like the mesmer version of Infiltrator’s strike helps a lot) is the real goal, the swap is just the mesmer twist that makes it not a waste of an ability (compared to other gap closers which are actually attacks).

Curunen.8729:

Actually more like Infiltrator’s Strike (thief sword 2) but with cast time, 12s cooldown compared with initiative, no immobilise on the initial target, no condi removal and obvious fragility of swap clone.

Gives a chance for enemies to avoid leap shatter combos.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator's_Strike

I think it’s a great idea. You’ll get a lot of salty thieves, though.

Curunen.8729:

I don’t care about the stun break – it makes sense to remove it. But the side effect of making dodge/swapping clunky bothers me quite a lot.

I am very much in favour of deleting sword 3 entirely and replacing it with something like Spear 2 (but teleport instead of travelling time). Fed up with the constant band aid changes to it.

1/2 second cast time (giving enemies a chance to react to the blink)
Spawn a clone at your position and then blink to your target, crippling them. Can teleport up or down terrain.
600 range
5 second option to swap position with your spawned clone and immobilise nearby targets.
12 second base cooldown

Just reversing the whole thing while maintaining the teleport would be so much better.

So the mesmer version of Shadowstep, basically.

Malicious Sorcery over Ineptitude?
All’s Well over Time Catches Up?
Improved Alacrity over Illusionary Reversion?
I dunno about that condition build, man…

Edit: also, left out Doom as an option for condi sigils (would replace geomancy).

ErazorZ.5209:

Mesmer is OP.

-Signed S/F (yes marauder using) fresh air elementalist.

Why? Well i cant just make a claim like that without any personal experiences can i?

As you have stated stealth literally one shots marauder using proffesions. This alone shows there is no reall dynamics going on between a mesmer and a marauder using proffesion because the mesmer just needs to hit his buttons correctly with no counterplays possible. In a competetive game this is not about being more skillfull then your opponent, but hitting an unstoppable combo 1 shotting someone.

This forces people to not play marauder on any class if theyr facing mesmers in multitude or even 1v1ing on point. This is bad. This causes stagnation.

Survival wise. I have seen multiple 1v1 dueling mesmers who focus on duels that literally have an impenetrable rotation. With dazes invurns teleports and a lazerpoint focus on dodgerolls to mitigate the remaining damage before he can do the rotate again. Whilst every daze that hits, opens up a potential burst from the mesmer. And the only openings you get are dodging the key dazes to do some counter damage wich are just not enough to burst down the mesmer intime since they dont have the lowest health.

What i ussually talk about when discussing mesmers is bringing up my own playstyle, fresh air.

If i compare the defences of a mesmer to the defences of fresh air, mesmer beats fresh air hands down. You could say stealth alone makes this possible. But in reality its the option to 1 shot spike a marauder class in a second. Versus the 4 second invurnerable an ele has access to on focus (when traited) on 33sec. The only other sustain fresh air has is blind spam. See the difference in utility? Fresh air has a lower base healthpool added to that. If i compare the cooldowns and active defences of a mesmer versus a fresh air you could say fresh air has an uptime of 70/80% defences, mesmer has close to 90%+ If traited.

If mesmer would have a delay ,inbetween skills, cast time on the burst the entire idea of instant spiking from stealth would be fixed. Because counterplays are possible. Just like thiefs are in atm, They burst a rediculous amount from stealth versus marauder, but if you react before the next finishing blow hits, you can blind him and force him to back off with your own spike because he has low health unlike mesmer.

Damagewise, sustain and raw burst DPS is around 30% higher then scepter fresh air.

If you want people like me (s/f QQ eles) to stop QQ, get an actuall scepter buff in for us, i know with our powers combined as the mages of gw2 we could make the world tremble. But as it stands now fighting a mesmer 1v1 as a fresh air is simply unfair.

Okay, your build gets wrecked by mesmer 1v1 (ignoring any claims of fact vs fiction regarding your analysis).
As a fresh air ele, how’s your teamfight utility?
Were you aware that mesmers are garbage in team fights?

Between you who gets wrecked by the mesmer 1v1, and the mesmer who gets wrecked 3v3+, which of your builds do you think is contributing more in an average ranked match?

Given that “overpowered” by definition says they shouldn’t be that powerful, don’t you think that should depend on victory conditions, not specific build matchups?

It’s not a fighter game we’re playing. Sagat doesn’t need to be competitive with Ryu, and Ken doesn’t need to be able to beat M. Bison. 1v1 is a piece of the balance, but it is only one piece. Your anecdotal evidence took no account of the context, only assuming that 1 mesmer build being stronger 1v1 than 1 ele build meant mesmer should be nerfed (that’s what “OP” really means, remember?)

Edit: Also, lolscepter. Scepter being underpowered does not make mesmer overpowered. Your logic is faulty, and it’s dishonest to start with a faulty conclusion to try to galvanize non-ele players into supporting your ele buff cause.
Offer to advocate on behalf of mesmer scepter, and I’ll consider advocating on behalf of ele scepter.

So many thanks for the link, tobasco!

I’m loving the look of these runesets.

Berserker: #1 rune for condi builds with any kind of hybrid stats. Edit: seriously, sinister engis were already taking the ele’s dps crown away, now they release a runeset that’s like Scholar for hybrid but better.
Herald: boonshare mes, anyone? Mantra healing + permanent protection = profit?
Chronomancer: okay, I’m sure we all get this one. But seriously, Well of Precognition + Chrono rune = ultimate rezzbot, no?
Daredevil: wasn’t someone trying to figure out how to make a Soldiers set chrono work with Lost Time + Danger Time? A guaranteed crit after a dodge means you’ll be able to land a crit MW every time!

Dondagora.9645:

You see Minstrel stats yet? Think you’ll be very pleased.

C’mon, don’t leave us hanging! What are the stats?

This goes for anyone who actually knows what the new stat layouts are, some of us don’t get to play until tonight, and I can’t find a thread explaining them anywhere in the HoT forum

derry.2789:

Still have no idea how this is supposed to be played!
Do you pop your phantasm’s and a clone and f5 – timewarp well spam then cycle wells untill the next f5 with phantasm’s giving alcricity and repeat?

Yes, this exactly.

The precise well rotation in the “spam” phase can be tricky to balance, but is easily doable when you get the hang of it (I, for example, still have not).

What you do during the “downtime” is up to you, sometimes having iAvengers out to enhance alacrity uptime will make sense, sometimes you’ll just want to bring out as many dps phantasms as you can.

Daniel Handler.4816:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

@pyro (I know you are reading this too)

In fights that require reflection can you switch to eternity, feedback, mimic, recall, time warp.

And I assume this build is not able to replace the stealth class in speed runs, unless mobs are killed so much faster one can wait for mass invisibility to go off cooldown to switch it to time warp.

With full alacrity and MoM, MI has a cooldown of 43.2s
Additionally, MI can be coupled with CS for extra stealth time. The nerf to PU is a loss, but the gain in CS from chrono will offset that. Plus, portal can make up for some of the loss, as Mesmer’s personal invis (Prestige, Decoy) can displace it.

That said, there will almost certainly be skips that are just better with a thief along regardless.

You aren’t Pyro!

That being said.

Would running warrior, ele, revenant, mesmer, engie effectively solve this issue? And still have better dps than the meta.

You’re thinking that between the engi, ele and warrior, we’ve got enough blasts to make full use of the engi smoke fields?

…yeah, I think that could work.
The ele’s really not far off optimal dps, positional issues aside
The engi is obviously meta dps, and can swap to scrapper for stealth gyro if necessary
The warrior was default anyway
Mesmer provides the needed direct stealth to supplement the smoke blasts
Revenant’s the only one I’d question. Not that I don’t like the idea of Herald boosting the chrono’s quickness, but it’s been rightly pointed out that you don’t necessarily need the support the rev is giving, and you could instead have another engi.

iSwordsman has higher single-target dps than iDuelist.
Traited iSwordsman has a shorter summon cooldown than iDuelist.
Magic Bullet is useless against bosses, while the block on OH sword can still be useful.

The new minion protection rules will give iSwordsman a survivability boost that it was losing before.

iSwordsman stacks Fencer’s Finesse.

iSwordsman is naturally closer to the target when you want to shatter.

There are many reasons you might want iSwordsman over iDuelist. Most of those reasons depend on what you’re running, and how you like to play. Which is as it should be.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@pyro (I know you are reading this too)

In fights that require reflection can you switch to eternity, feedback, mimic, recall, time warp.

And I assume this build is not able to replace the stealth class in speed runs, unless mobs are killed so much faster one can wait for mass invisibility to go off cooldown to switch it to time warp.

With full alacrity and MoM, MI has a cooldown of 43.2s
Additionally, MI can be coupled with CS for extra stealth time. The nerf to PU is a loss, but the gain in CS from chrono will offset that. Plus, portal can make up for some of the loss, as Mesmer’s personal invis (Prestige, Decoy) can displace it.

That said, there will almost certainly be skips that are just better with a thief along regardless.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Yeah, for scholar I will have to grind… I mean save up the gold for. While I have a bank full of Opals.

And are Eagle runes that good comparitivley?

Eagle runes fall off compared to scholar. But they’re much cheaper.
Tbh, I’ve always thought it weird that they gave scholar 10% and eagle only 7%. Scholar tends to be up the whole fight, Eagle by definition is only up half the fight (or less, with thieves/eles around to burn down the second half), and power > precision point for point.

Edit: and if they do change Ranger to count illusions again, Ranger will almost certainly be better than Eagle.

Cygnus.6903:

The entire original post does not invite real discussion IMO, but we can still try.

You mention mesmer now being able to do more damage from stealth then thief can. How can this be intended when thief is meant to be the assassination class?

I play mesmer, as well as thief and warrior. I am way more skilled at the other two, yet the rewards I claim as a mesmer are far greater then with either war or thief. This is coming from a wvw roaming perspective.

Currently, the skill floor is too low. The ceiling is still high, though.

While we’re highlighting the problems we have, and though Ross already called the point, this is kind of a deal with your post.

WvW roaming is not a valid measuring stick for mesmer balance, because it’s not an intended segment of play. Of all the areas of the game that the devs have tried to balance, it should be clear that WvW roaming is absolutely not balanced at all. The only builds that succeed are builds like DD ele, thief and mesmer that can engage multiple players and get away with their lives (ele because loltankdps, thief and mesmer because stealth lets them escape), or move fast enough to engage/disengage at will (nike warriors). This is because WvW inherently encourages travelling in groups, so any solo roamer will get munched by any 2-group roamers of equivalent skill, and so on.

Mesmers are among the few successful roamers simply by virtue of having one of the few mechanics that can make it actually work. That’s a “low skill floor” only because anyone you meet who tries to solo roam is starting at a disadvantage against you. The devs haven’t adjusted for this much (though they did just nerf PU, have you played it since then?) because they just don’t care much about people trying to wander the borderlands alone.

But if you take that into pve, or spvp, you’ll find that it’s not actually that low of a floor. In fact, just learning mesmer has been much harder than just learning warrior, guardian, ranger, and thief right off the top, because the mechanics aren’t any less complicated now that mesmers are powerful.

Phloww.1048:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

When they hit :P

Hey! Hey! I don’t want any of the phantasms missing now! They have no excuse now that they take a lot less damage from those AoEs. :P

Your lips to Gee’s ears. iWarlock’s projectile needs to track its targets :P

Phloww.1048:

Xyonon.3987:

Without diing illusions – 3 warlocks in a full dps build and we’re top tier … :P

Good thing I’m enjoying the staff for the past few weeks. I was surprised how much damage they do (as long as many conditions are on the target).

When they hit :P

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

But even if one group stands on one side of the boss while group two stands on the other side of the boss if the boss moves a little bit that totally wastes TW n wells. Especially for the first boss where your wanting to be moving the boss around. But then again some people will be going to the lightning on the first boss so IDK. Seems like it could work sometimes but it’s only sometimes for a 1 chrono comp.

That’s not a unique problem to this group, though. Even the identical-group solution has to deal with that. It’s chronomancer itself that’s reliant on the positioning for Wells/TW.

Azure.8670:

Not seeing Rev…. anywhere

It’s simpler this way. But you can stick them in group 2 instead of an extra ele/engi. That strengthens the mesmer’s quickness buffing, at the cost of downgrading from a top dps to a tier2 dps. We don’t know if that’s worthwhile until we can measure revenant’s dps in action in raids.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Why would you take a warrior for the first groups buffer and then take a chrono for the second groups. It would be either 2 chronos or 2 PS warriors right?

Chrono doesn’t need to be in the group for their buffs. Because the alacrity and quickness are area-based, they can be in group 2 and still be buffing group 1.
The warrior, though, needs to be in group 1 to ensure that their banner/might/other buffs go to their group.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

EDIT: I said wouldn’t it and it blurted it out as wouldn’kitten ? Did they brake the forums? Time to try something else and see if they blurt it out. Lol and now it says it just fine in the edit I’m so confused >.<

Happens to me all the time. Contractions that end with a “t”, followed by an “it?” look to their rather trigger-happy algorithm like saying “ti” “ts”. Childish giggling follows.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I see it as basically two identical groups because buffs prefer your sub squad. Even with ground targeted buffs you can’t simply have your highest DPS stand on one side of the boss because if the boss moves a little bit all those buffs go to waist especially for the first boss which your supposed to move around. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

In an identical-group mechanic, for example:
Group 1 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 thief
Group 2 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 druid

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier3 dps/utility with full buffs, 2 crappy dps/support with full buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with full buffs

In a dps-group mechanic:
Group 1 = 4 ele/engi, 1 ps warr
Group 2 = 1 chrono, 1 druid, 1 thief, 2 ele/engi

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 top dps with secondary buffs, 1 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier2 with secondary buffs, 1 tier3 with secondary buffs, 1 crappy dps/support with secondary buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with secondary buffs.

The loss:

• alacrity/quickness and banners for 2 crappy dps, 1 terrible dps, 1 tier2 dps and 1 tier3 dps.
• some utility from having a second portal/MI

The gain:

• 1 crappy dps is now a top dps (without alacrity/quickness or banners).
• 1 tier2 dps is now a top dps.
• some utility from having more slots to swap engis with eles and vice versa.

The real question is, does the dps loss to lower-dps classes amount to more damage than the dps gain from swapping some of those lower-dps classes to higher-dps classes?
I’m just not confident that the answer is yes.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

frifox.5283:

apharma.3741:

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

To clarify, for frost spirit to be more effective than 3 fully buffed swordsmans your party DPS has to be ~70k dps (quite realistic with 2x ele during organized guild runs). On average a good zerk party dps will push ~40k and frost sprit would increase that by ~2.8k, which is 1.6 swordsmans. Basically, the higher your party dps the more valuable frost spirit is, to the point where in the high end it does overtake 3x swordsmans.

With HoT mesmer MAY become top DPS by feeding off other party members dps – through aclarity & quickness. Only time and in-game testing will tell, which definitely will come.

Which, incidentally, creates both the start and the end of mesmer value: while a chronomancer may be highest dps, the dependence on party dps also caps the number of chronos that is viable. Taking 2 chronomancers decreases the value of each of them.
In raids it’s possible (but unlikely) that 2 chronos will make sense (1 for each party), but you’ll always be discussing whether you should have 2 or more engi/ele dps.

Alacrity/quickness is ensuring a slot for chronomancer, but it’s only one slot.

Why wouldn’t you take 2 chronos in raids?

The premise is the classical role-sorting of parties. A chrono in the dps party (or at least, focused on supporting the dps party) makes sense, but the second chrono’s value falls off relatively speaking.
The point is that while it’s possible there will be sufficiently more than 5 pure dps in a raid to justify a second chrono, and alacrity is still useful for the utility classes, it’s less likely to be the case that you’d not get more out of adding another dps.

So while one view is that a raid is just two optimal groups (which would include 2 chronos), the other is that role specialization suggests otherwise. Raids in other MMOs suggest the latter is likely.

For example, suppose sinister engi is the uncontested meta dps (I suspect a mix of ele/engi will be optimal in the end).
What else do we need? 1 druid and at least 1 chrono are expected (druid b/c of Anet, chrono because of math). Fortunately, the druid and chrono don’t need to be in the same group as the dps to be effective.
Next, PS Warr is obvious. He’ll go in the same group as the dps, to maximize the target limit of his banners. To make the best use out of that dps boost, fill the entire rest of his group with dps. So 4engi+1warr for group 1. If there is another class that is needed to boost the dps group, you swap out an engi for that.
Optimizing group 1 follows the usual dps/support math, but without worrying about utility, which can be provided by group 2. The only reason to stick a utility class in group 1 is if that utility class also provides valuable untargetable support.

So now we’re left optimizing group 2. So far that’s a druid and a chrono.
Candidates include Herald (supporting the chrono+decent dps+tank), thief (stealth+decent dps), guardian(reflects+decent dps+tank), moar dps (ele/engi), moar tank (rev/warr/guard), moar cc (rev/???).

In any case, adding a second chrono leaves only 2 slots for strong dps in group 2, leaving you with a druid (low dps), chrono (low dps and doesn’t need the alacrity anyway), second chrono (low dps), and 2 dps or utility to try to boost his value off of.
Is it possible that will still be worthwhile? Yeah.
Is it likely that will still be worthwhile? It doesn’t seem so.

Synosius.9876:

Silverkey.2078:

Synosius.9876:

mesmer […] are OP now with out a doubt.

It didn’t take long… 1h30 and someone says mesmer is OP…

why is it so hard to admit? feeling self conscious that maybe skill is less of a factor?

we should embrace our superiority!

OP = Overpowered = Too powerful = it should not be this powerful = it is a bad thing that it is this powerful = it should be nerfed.
That is what you are saying when you call it OP, by definition.

That’s a secondary part of the problem, many people like you are trying to say “yeah, it’s the best” but instead saying “it’s too powerful”.
Being at the top of the heap =/= overpowered. In the case of mesmer, for example, being the best duelist class (arguably) is balanced out by the lack of viability in larger combat. Bringing a mesmer instead of another DD ele means shifting team power from team fights into solo roaming. It can be a legitimate move (a couple teams have tried it in tourneys), but it’s a strategic move, and a risk. That’s the balance.

Given the above, calling it “overpowered” is a disservice to the class, and is frankly not true.

frifox.5283:

apharma.3741:

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

To clarify, for frost spirit to be more effective than 3 fully buffed swordsmans your party DPS has to be ~70k dps (quite realistic with 2x ele during organized guild runs). On average a good zerk party dps will push ~40k and frost sprit would increase that by ~2.8k, which is 1.6 swordsmans. Basically, the higher your party dps the more valuable frost spirit is, to the point where in the high end it does overtake 3x swordsmans.

With HoT mesmer MAY become top DPS by feeding off other party members dps – through aclarity & quickness. Only time and in-game testing will tell, which definitely will come.

Which, incidentally, creates both the start and the end of mesmer value: while a chronomancer may be highest dps, the dependence on party dps also caps the number of chronos that is viable. Taking 2 chronomancers decreases the value of each of them.
In raids it’s possible (but unlikely) that 2 chronos will make sense (1 for each party), but you’ll always be discussing whether you should have 2 or more engi/ele dps.

Alacrity/quickness is ensuring a slot for chronomancer, but it’s only one slot.

Fay.2357:

We will see a dps increase…but even 100% best case scenario dps for Mesmer pales in comparison to ele or engie.

^
I did the math assuming phantasm uptime even before news of the minion change. Condi mes came up surprisingly competitive with power mes.

Neither was competitive with the meta dps builds.

Arctarius.2649:

Better yet, why don’t I just post the stream to you where a pro says it himself while laughing lol. After all I’m sure he has far more games than I. But if you wish I can post mine to you gladly as soon as I am home.

Someone already replied to this, citing the same pro you seem to be (helseth, right?), but apparently from today, contradicting you.

Ross Biddle.2367:

All you did was list a bunch of features a Mesmer has and shout “OP! OP!”

*allegedly has.

He did list “stealthy as a thief” in his list of features, among other eyebrow-raisers.

Klonko.8341:

You once again didnt read my post. I mentionned how priviligied the class feels like from a stranger to the class.

And you didn’t read his.
You made wild, totally inaccurate claims about what you can accomplish with your mesmer that make you feel so “privileged,” and he pointed out that they were not true.

Make realistic claims, and you’ll perhaps get a realistic response.

But lie to us again, and you’ll just get the boot to the face again.

SPNKr.6208:

Actually, if you’re level 80, you should be able to unlock everything immediately. As for traits, dom/duel/inspr is great. Sometimes I substitute illusions for dominations if I’m running alone and am shattering often.

This.
I don’t understand why Xstein was giving any advice other than “unlock everything right now”.

Celeras.4980:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

New Phantasm meta confirmed. Everyone adjust your builds accordingly :P

Implying phantasm was ever not meta for Mesmer in PvE, outside like 2 seconds of Alacrity testing.

As I said above, my point was to imply that there’s a difference between “you’re gonna suck, but phantasms will suck less” and “phantasms are actually nice now”.

Chaoz.7941:

Since rangers are getting insane healing capabilities now can they just remove the ICD they added to it. It was really only op when synced with vampiric aura from necros, which required 2 classes…….

Don’t forget that engineers got their heal sharing trait revamped in this last patch. Changed to pretty much exactly what we want, too :P

Palador.2170:

SongOfDestruction.2984:

Any particular reason ya’ll went for a flat % damage reduction instead of giving minions .75 second distortion on evade? Rangers already give protection to pets on evade, coding-wise that sounds easy enough to extend.

If you have to use your evades to keep your pet alive, then that just creates a different problem.

Additionally, a lot of content is based not just on evades, but on stepping out. Players can leave the red circles. Pets can’t. Getting .75s of evade doesn’t help when your dumb minion just chills in the red circle and dies .1s after the evade ends.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Swapping a paid content trait with free content (now anyway) trait can be problematic.

I honestly don’t see why. If it’s the right change, it’s the right change. It’ll be good for the paid content, it’ll be good for the unpaid content.
It’s not like people who pay for HoT are losing access to the unpaid content.
And it’s not like it’s a programming difficulty. It’s literally a few lines of code swapped.

sephiroth.4217:

The truth is that Mesmer can outdamage burn builds without perplexity runes as it is…

This is not remotely true, and I challenge you to prove it.

sephiroth.4217:

you can nuke out 12-18 stacks of torment and confusion on your first, second, 3rd and 4th bomb

Except no, you can’t. Do your homework before you start talking out your kitten .
Mind Wrack:
confusion: 4 stacks with 4 illusions.
torment: 4 stacks with 4 illusions.
cooldown: 12s
Cry of Frustration:
confusion: 8 stacks with 4 illusions
torment: 4 stacks with 4 illusions
cooldown: 25s
Distraction:
confusion: 4 stacks with 4 illusions
torment: 4 stacks with 4 illusions
cooldown: 38s
Diversion:
confusion: 4 stacks with 4 illusions (if they happen to be next to the target)
torment: 4 stacks with 4 illusions (if they happen to be next to the target)
cooldown: 50s

First bomb: 4/4
Second bomb: 8/4
Third bomb: 4/4
Fourth bomb: 4/4
Maximum total possible: 20/16
Chance you’ll ever pull off the max: 0%
That’s because you’ve gotta create 12 illusions in 2 seconds to even have a ghost of a chance to pull something like that off.

Oh, and note the cooldowns there. You talk crap about guardian’s 20s cycle, but hey! only one mesmer “bomb” has less than a 20s cooldown anyway, and 2 of them are much much longer.

sephiroth.4217:

A clear indication of how powerful the perplex rune set would be is that every condition build that didn’t take flame legion runes or vamp runes would take perplexity…

1. Pulled this out of your kitten too, did you? Because I’m curious how you know this is true.
2. It’s also not true. Condition builds don’t all take Perplexity in WvW, even now. And not just because of the money.
3. What the hell kind of condition build uses vamp runes?

sephiroth.4217:

Also Cele DD ele with perplex – No thanks.

How often are DD eles actually interrupting you? They’ve got maybe one reliable interrupt? That confusion is gonna do nothing.

tl;dr: you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, everyone here can safely ignore you now. Frankly I’m shocked that a player with “7k hours” and “3 mesmers” would be this ignorant of the actual mechanics.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

swapping a trait from elite spec to standard trait is unheard of.

Um.
That’s mostly because doing ANYTHING to an elite spec is unheard of.
Given they’re new, and all.

Siggi.3201:

0.o hopes and dreams are ruined…
but thanks for your reply

Don’t get me wrong, your build is most of the way to being effective, but not in the way you think.

Alacrity-support is the future of mesmering in pve. It’s not the shatters that do damage though, it’s your allies :P

Trigr.6481:

I think these two traits should swap places. Persistance of Memory and Chronophantasma have great synergy if they are in the chrono tree together, not to mention with alacrity. And with the illusions tree illusionary reversion just simply makes sense to place it there because for one it’s a illusion based skill and two you could see more dps output from maim, shattered strength “which nobody hardly uses”. Thoughts?

Countless

My only hesitance is that the 2-illusion requirement is pretty hard to maintain without Chronophantasma or DE.
Other than that though, it certainly makes sense that the “Illusion” tree would have a clone generation trait :P

If this is pve, your guildmate was misinformed.

If this is pvp, shatter was always meta.

snow.8097:

mesmer can throw out torment and confu like candy, u can clean as u wish, but they just apply it again and again
runes that support condi builds in that way are not fun to play against
u get ton of T and C? U run – u die on torment, u fight – u die on confu, u just stand still and die too.
Condi mesmer is a build i just dont want to see get buffed

Yes, because the other condi builds are soooo much weaker :rolleyes:

The truth is that Burn > All, and mesmers don’t get to have it.

Akyl.8647:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Akyl.8647:

I am worried does this change also include World Vs World. Although I am not a WvW player I can only imagine the consequences if this effect applied to WvW. I can only imagine firestorm hitting minnions doing no damage. Over 100 people using MM necro/reaper and just swarming and winning fights because aoe counts 5 people and ignores the rest.

Um. The second part of your post? The “because aoe counts 5 people and ignores the rest” part? That’s how it is right now. Do you see “over 100 people using MM necro/reaper and just swarming and winning fights” right now? No?
That’s because there is a LOT more aoe abilities in this game than there are minion abilities. Not protecting minions against that aoe death just leaves minions where they are right now: useless in WvW.

I am sincerely worried that aoe attacks will no longer prioritize players and go straight to minions in a large scale battle. Do you like your firestorm to be completely negated when you target a zerg attacking a door? Maybe get some or worst case scenario 0 damage on rams since there may be mersmer, necro, and ranger pets by the gate?. Does that sound like good gameplay?. This is a pressing issue I understand fully PVE it is absolutely fantastic change but then when you start seeing the application in WvW will this functionality stick in WvW or will we get a separate balance patch for it?

See my response to spurnshadow: they can change this priority to be players-first, we know this because that’s how buffs/boons work.

Additionally, why would you be worried that they would “no longer” prioritize players? Do they prioritize players now? Is there any indication that they would change that?

Tragic Positive.9356:

Makes me Wonder.

Raid Bosses prioritize targets with Highest Toughness
Bear Pet Tanking, anyone?
Immortal Bear pet Tanking, anyone?

Minions that are targeted take full damage.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Yes, certain trait lines are not viable in WvW, but not every trait line is, regardless of if it’s a pet class or not. Some traits are designed for WvW, some aren’t.

There’s kind of an entire class that’s so reliant on its pets that you can’t just not use them. Sure, engineers can just not use turrets, or necros can just not use minions.
Go ahead and try a mesmer out in the zerg, though. After you’ve finished banging your head against your desk and swap back to a more sane class, come back here. I’ll be waiting :P

Spurnshadow.3678:

But here’s the big concern: statistical damage reduction.

What do I mean by this? If you have 5 players standing in an AoE circle, then all the players will take 100% of the damage. Now, lets say those 5 players are pet classes and each has 4 pets out, standing in an AoE cirlcle. Those players now have 80% damage reduction due to the statistical chance of them getting hit. This would make it the most powerful class of classes in the game.

Untill this issue is addressed, pets shouldn’t be buffed for WvW.

Buffs/boons/healing already prioritize players over pets. Wouldn’t it be simple enough to do the same for damage?

Zenith.7301:

Alpha, please do your math thing and see how 3x iDefenders compare in Alacrity uptime compared to shatter spam, pretty pls? ;p

I’m counting 2s alacrity application every 8 seconds without phantasmal haste. That’s 6 alacrity every 8 seconds at 3 phantasms.

With Improved Alacrity that would be 9s, which would be 100% uptime if the Avengers rotation were actually 8s.

However,

But in that calculation I’m not figuring out the delay in delivery from the attack animations themselves, so it’s probably less than 6/8 seconds, and with illusions’ Phantasmal Haste it should mitigate that delay reasonably enough.

There is no way to math this. We’re just going to have to do real-world time testing on iAvenger attack cycles a la frifox.
Worse, because iAvenger is melee, any mobile target is going to lengthen the cycle by however long it takes the little kitten to get to the target and make the attack.

Additionally, even if the iAvenger isn’t affected by the aoe/cleave surrounding the boss, you definitely still will be. That melee zone can be pretty brutal.

Edit: seriously, erp with a d is censored. You’re really stretching it, Anet.

Kaamau.5341:

tobascodagama.2961:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Kaamau.5341:

This could be really really interesting for I-defender, if you set it on a raid boss, have some one come in to tank it, the the defender will only take 5% of 50% of the tanks damage, unless it some how still takes the full hit. If the tank out puts any healing or if there is a druid, the defender could be sustained indefinately. Making it instumental in raid encounters that use any kind of a tank as it will be a almost constant 50% damage reduction.

The damage to the iDefender should be coming from the buff itself, not the NPC directly, so I’ll be very surprised if iDefender actually takes any less damage that way.

Yeah, agreed with your interpretation. Creature attacks against minions have their damage reduced, but the iDefender buff is not a creature attack against a minion.

Worth testing out when the change hits live, though, just in case.

Yeah but mobs take damage from retal the defender has when they hit the player, suggesting that there is a connection of some kind.

This is…actually a very very good point.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Nothing holding mesmer from being top tier now.

You mean, besides the fact that even with full phantasm uptime, mesmers don’t do top tier dps?

Akyl.8647:

I am worried does this change also include World Vs World. Although I am not a WvW player I can only imagine the consequences if this effect applied to WvW. I can only imagine firestorm hitting minnions doing no damage. Over 100 people using MM necro/reaper and just swarming and winning fights because aoe counts 5 people and ignores the rest.

Um. The second part of your post? The “because aoe counts 5 people and ignores the rest” part? That’s how it is right now. Do you see “over 100 people using MM necro/reaper and just swarming and winning fights” right now? No?
That’s because there is a LOT more aoe abilities in this game than there are minion abilities. Not protecting minions against that aoe death just leaves minions where they are right now: useless in WvW.

Kaamau.5341:

This could be really really interesting for I-defender, if you set it on a raid boss, have some one come in to tank it, the the defender will only take 5% of 50% of the tanks damage, unless it some how still takes the full hit. If the tank out puts any healing or if there is a druid, the defender could be sustained indefinately. Making it instumental in raid encounters that use any kind of a tank as it will be a almost constant 50% damage reduction.

The damage to the iDefender should be coming from the buff itself, not the NPC directly, so I’ll be very surprised if iDefender actually takes any less damage that way.

Xyonon.3987:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

New Phantasm meta confirmed. Everyone adjust your builds accordingly :P

new? o.ô

Old phantasm meta had to account for phantasm fragility, and also suffered immensely anyway because often you just can’t.
New phantasm meta pops iWarden/iDefender/iAvenger and watches in amazement as it facerubs the boss and stays alive.

Make phantasmal defender scale completely with your vitality.
Just phantasmal defender.

Still useless in WvW, but a step forward is still a step forward, right?

New Phantasm meta confirmed. Everyone adjust your builds accordingly :P