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Chaotic Transference

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I what I want more damage condition, the necro can over “2k points of conditions” damage accumulation condition, and the mesmer can not get there “2k points of damage conditions” (only 1,7k or 1.8k points), hence why I propose this, because when i play with necro (in pve), i notice more dps on conditions in little seconds, and with the mesmer, i have to do more, using shatter for to go accumulate damage conditions, and still, not go reach dps of the necro with conditions, and is very tiresome, in “PVP” does not it perhaps missing, but en pve yes, for this I said that change.

A exchange of trait are fair, exchange the traits “Evasive Mirror” (Duels Train line) instead “Chaotic Transfer”, and adding “Chaotic Transfer” with % accurate on damge condition.

Why not just leave Chaotic Transference where it is?

Do we really need Evasive Mirror?
Blinding Dissipation is generally considered superior for pvp, and the personal limitation on EM’s reflects is actually pretty weak for pve (many reflectable bosses aren’t even affected).
Most mesmers who want some reflects for pvp use Master of Manipulation+Blink, or slot Mirror (or both).
While I realize there are likely some folks who prefer Evasive Mirror, we’re not exactly hurting for reflect sources (MoM, feedback, Mirror, Focus), we’re not hurting for improved evades (Ineptitude), and even the same tier has a strong anti-attack pvp trait (Blinding Dissipation) that competes with Evasive Mirror as it is.

I just don’t think it will be much of a loss.

Chaotic Transference

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I could see a case being made for adding a precision→ condition trait in Dueling, given that condi support is already heavily built-in to Dueling. Replacing Evasive Mirror, perhaps.

Alacrity sound almost causes tinnitus :(

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

While you’re at it, the buzzing on Chronophantasma butterflies and the “squelching” sound of blinding dissipation are equally unpleasant.

Especially the Chronophantasma buzzing.

And someone really hates Signet of Inspiration.

And while you’re revamping sounds, the new warhorn sounds almost as bad as the old one. Switch it for something deeper, like the Horn of Helm Hammerhand :P
As it is, warhorns sound like elementary students who can’t play their trumpet yet.

Chronomancer rune and PvE

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

One chronomancer running Pyro’s rotations with 100% boon duration could cover an entire raid with 78% quickness uptime (78% for one group, 87% for the other).

The same chronomancer with just 50% boon duration (from a Herald) could cover a single group with 95% quickness uptime, no Signet of Inspiration required.

Boonsharing is not necessary for sufficient quickness support.

Condition damage weapons

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

With a sword/pistol and sword/focus (the highest theoretical condi DPS on a single target)

Math, please.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you’ve provided none.

Alacrity sound almost causes tinnitus :(

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Would implementing an equalizer help? Because I totally could go for that :p

Condition damage weapons

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Why? Because Ether Bolt’s after cast is not affected by Quickness, it depends on projectile speed. This goes back to the dilemma of staying in melee range and halving Torment damage, or staying at range and losing RoF.

It is a profound irony that the weapon that gives torment punishes kiting :P

Chronomancer rune and PvE

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I doubt the 90%+ can be kept up as good as before anymore, especially raids, jungle and high fotm WILL damage you. I take chronomancer rune because it’s better than eagle in harder envoirments, not because it’s better than scholar in the already too easy parts of the game.

Is this room for Condi hybrid to grow? Berserker runes give an unconditional 5% (compared to Eagle’s conditional 7% and Scholar’s conditional 10%), and adds 5% condi damage on top.

Condition damage weapons

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Your comparisons aren’t going to work until you take each build holistically :P

Telekinesis’ point requires calculations of illusion uptime and shatter damage, which makes this all much more complicated.

You’ve gotta model your rotations, and do the entire build math, or you’re both just building a house of cards (I recognized Embolism’s math, I’m just pointing out that it can’t be compared to Telekinesis’ argument until you can also model Telekinesis’ rotations).

Too much alacrity stacking

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Alacrity is capped at 30 seconds, which is fair considering how hard it is to stack.

Is there a source on this?

Did a fractal with 3 chronos against mai.

Don’t do a fractal with 3 chronos against mai.

So does the bombardment go through blocks, then? Because I could see a 3-chrono group being essentially invulnerable (3 well of precog, blocks/distortion on everyone, maybe throw in some distortion share if needed, pick up sword for extra blur).

Chronophantasma vs Sieze the Moment?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

scepter in a power build is alright cause confusing images deals a lot of damage but sword in a condition build is not worth it

In pve yes it’s not worth it.

In pvp no – sword is excellent in any build, condition or power, as a defensive/kiting tool.

^
Realistically, you’d use sword/shield to replace staff as your defensive weapon, and have scepter/pistol, scepter/torch or scepter/focus as your damage driver. Losing condi pressure from the staff is compensated by the superior defenses and cc of the sword/shield combo, but you do end up more reliant on the scepter than otherwise (which is fine, you just have to be aware of that).

Before HoT, I think Curunen was even using sword/focus instead of staff, is that right?
I could see sword/torch being decent as well, using the stealth in place of the block, with torch providing a superior cover phantasm to avenger.

Too much alacrity stacking

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Alacrity is capped at 30 seconds, which is fair considering how hard it is to stack.

Is there a source on this?

Chrono Phantasms

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I actually saw a 4.2k burning during a group event boss fight which made me laugh. Between Duelist being a projectile finisher and warden being a whirl finisher there is a lot of condi stacking potential between them.

Nothing in your build applies burning…

That is what is funny about it. It was all from my duelists/wardens comboing other peoples’ fields.

I just busted up laughing. I have never, once, considered that possibility. That’s awesome.
I mean, I’ve thought about the confusing bolts from time to time, but now that wardens can actually survive in boss fights, that’s just downright amazing. I wonder how that would change my dps comparisons between power and condi.

Chrono Phantasms

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I normally agree with Alpha when it comes to condi builds, but I have to insist you guys try something a little different when using Chrono.

The best hybrid (aka Sinister) damage setup I’ve tested so far for solo/open world-

Dueling 1 1 2 (thats right! lolmistrust)
Illusions 1 3 3
Chrono 2 3 3

Scepter + focus and pistol

The warden is actually really great at stacking bleeds, its AoE, blocks projectiles and does really solid physical damage. It becomes all about timing your shatters at the end of your phantasms’ attacks.

The scepter rarely screws you over because you’re shattering so often.

You don’t need DE in this build, so may as well grab mistrust. Both the pistol and the focus have great interrupt skills with relatively low cooldowns also (especially with alacrity).

I take the super speed illusions because it helps to reset my phantasms faster. I dont like the wells for solo play.

I haven’t done the math (mostly because i’m not sure where to even start) to see if DD would beat out PF with this setup. . . but I’m just rolling with PF for now.

I strongly suggest giving it a try. It is super fast-paced and does solid AoE damage (for a Mesmer build).

Maaannn, I just can’t see it with Mistrust. Until they let us proc interrupt traits on breakbar mobs, it just feels like a potential liability.
And giving up my ability to kite champs…I just dunno. I do see a lot more mob crowds in the Brink than I did in SW, but…ugh.

As far as DD vs PF, that will all depend on your iDuelist vs iWarden balance. If you’re getting enough wardens up, and they’re actually getting their full attack off on their targets, then PF will certainly outperform, especially with Chronophantasma/PoM evening the playing field between the Duelist and Warden on cycle speed.

That’s something that has got me thinking.

Wardens whirl finisher is a 100% chance compared to Duelists 20% chance. We now have faster recharging combo fields to use them in. Add to that you can fix the long attack cool down times through Chronophantasma resets.

If we rely on Wardens’s more we can also move away from Duelist discipline and get Phantasmal Fury instead.

Stacking 3 constantly attacking Wardens in combo fields should make for some insane condition stacks. Just one double attack Warden can put 24 stacks of confusion out.

The AOE potential is cool, but Wardens still have the problem wardens always had: they can’t hurt a moving target.

Chrono Phantasms

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I actually saw a 4.2k burning during a group event boss fight which made me laugh. Between Duelist being a projectile finisher and warden being a whirl finisher there is a lot of condi stacking potential between them.

Nothing in your build applies burning…

Chrono Phantasms

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I normally agree with Alpha when it comes to condi builds, but I have to insist you guys try something a little different when using Chrono.

The best hybrid (aka Sinister) damage setup I’ve tested so far for solo/open world-

Dueling 1 1 2 (thats right! lolmistrust)
Illusions 1 3 3
Chrono 2 3 3

Scepter + focus and pistol

The warden is actually really great at stacking bleeds, its AoE, blocks projectiles and does really solid physical damage. It becomes all about timing your shatters at the end of your phantasms’ attacks.

The scepter rarely screws you over because you’re shattering so often.

You don’t need DE in this build, so may as well grab mistrust. Both the pistol and the focus have great interrupt skills with relatively low cooldowns also (especially with alacrity).

I take the super speed illusions because it helps to reset my phantasms faster. I dont like the wells for solo play.

I haven’t done the math (mostly because i’m not sure where to even start) to see if DD would beat out PF with this setup. . . but I’m just rolling with PF for now.

I strongly suggest giving it a try. It is super fast-paced and does solid AoE damage (for a Mesmer build).

Maaannn, I just can’t see it with Mistrust. Until they let us proc interrupt traits on breakbar mobs, it just feels like a potential liability.
And giving up my ability to kite champs…I just dunno. I do see a lot more mob crowds in the Brink than I did in SW, but…ugh.

As far as DD vs PF, that will all depend on your iDuelist vs iWarden balance. If you’re getting enough wardens up, and they’re actually getting their full attack off on their targets, then PF will certainly outperform, especially with Chronophantasma/PoM evening the playing field between the Duelist and Warden on cycle speed.

[Pve] Rune of scholar or chrono's?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Though if the fight is over in 5 seconds the Alacrity is rather moot for the most part.

More alacrity with shorter fights just means you can have more frequent fights, as the alacrity finishes off your cooldowns quicker. So extra alacrity is almost never wasted, unless you’re already hitting 100% uptime (which is unlikely).

Chronophantasma vs Sieze the Moment?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Sword also has a strong defensive advantage. If you find yourself playing around with tanking things, Alacrity+Blurred Frenzy+Shield+Well of Precog+Distortion = amazing damage mitigation uptime.
It’s not as big a deal in PvE, but I could see there being uses for it.

Chrono Phantasms

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Hey All,

Probably a silly question. I’ve always run mesmer condi builds, always loved them. Love shatter but nothing like a good condi.

Does playing in PvE seem viable to run a condi chrono with phantasm focus?

so like either Inspiration/Illusion/Chrono or say Dueling/illusion/Chrono. If so what would you recommend for weapons for both options?

Cheers.

Short answer: yes.
Long answer: careful, you might start another “viable” argument.

Open-world: condi is very viable.
Dungeons: meta is alacrity chronomancer, what you bring after that is just gravy. You can run condi if you want, and you’ll be just fine. There’s a solid argument in power’s favor, but since your personal dps is supplementary, and condi dps is decent, you’ll be fine. The only exception is reflect-heavy paths, where Assassins will dramatically outperform, and condi-hostile paths (like some Arah paths).
Raids: See Dungeons.

If you do roll condi in dungeons, though, absolutely use Sinister gear over the traditional Rabid. Not only does rabid make you more of an aggro target, but you need the extra power in order to damage objects (like graveling burrows). Fun fact: objects can’t be crit, so Sinister technically does the same damage as Power (minus trait/rune/sigil bonuses).

For a trait setup, I’d say Dueling/Illusions/Chrono is not optional. iDuelist is the only competitive condi phantasm, and that requires Dueling. Illusions is obv necessary for the shatter condis, and chrono is part of your premise (and is why you’re being brought in the dungeon anyway).

For weapons, I’d recommend Scepter/Pistol+Staff. If you want to go heavier into support, swap pistol for shield and use Staff clones/shatters as your primary condi application, swapping to shield to Tides of Time the raid.

For open-world PvE, condi Staff is one of the best soloing weapons in the game. I have so far managed to solo every champ I’ve come across in the HoT zones with my staff, sometimes even under reasonable trash mob pressure (heavy trash mobs makes it really tough). For dungeons/raids, staff clones are a much-needed backup in case your phantasms keep drawing aggro and getting squished, and staff is an essential defensive weapon if you’re relying on pistol instead of shield (since you lost all those defensive traits from Chaos).

For gear I’m still recommending Sinister, as it combines all the best stats (power for objects, precision for reflects, condi because you’re a condi build). I haven’t played around with Viper yet, but it’s possible Viper will outperform (especially with the nerf to condi duration food), though your reflects will be even weaker on it. Maybe a mix would be good.

For Runes, top competitors are Nightmare (with a Rampagers Orb in the 6th slot) and Berserker. More accessible options (read: cheap) are Undead and Krait, but do your math before you use them, because Krait might be overfilling on your condi duration and Undead won’t be netting you as much extra condi damage without Rabid gear.

Nightmare was the uncontested winner for Sinister before HoT in my opinion, but that 5%/5% from Berserker is…really tasty (fyi, the 5% damage affects reflects like Scholar does, but without the 90% health requirement that Scholar does).

(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)

Chronophantasma vs Sieze the Moment?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

chronophantasma is only ever used in phantasm builds atm, seize the moment works for both but a must for shatter builds with a sceptre

Chronophantasma is also used in extreme shatter builds as a secondary illusion source.
Condi shatter, for example, is better off using Chronophantasma to fuel Illusionary Reversion than in getting the quickness from StM.

Still stunned after continuum shift

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Yea I find it confusing too. I’d be more logical if it would reset everything. But in terms of balance, it’s already good enough this way.

That door also swings both ways, unfortunately. You’d end up losing illusions, buffs, and boons as well, meaning the only value of f5 would be the damage you dealt, which is extremely boring and limiting.

Stats for HoT PvE

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

kitten armor

That stat must be new. What’s its layout?

Mesmer Shield

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

So shield 4 can basically reset itself?
If deja vu blocks an attack, will it create another deja vu?

It’s a second cast of the same effect, but no more. That’s why they called the second cast Deja Vu, instead of just making it a repeat of the same cast: Echoes of Memory can proc Deja Vu, but Deja Vu cannot proc Deja Vu.

@Owlite: Tides of Time (shield 5) is a stun, not a daze.

Other notes about Tides of Time:

  • It gives 1.5s of quickness to allies it passes through, so 2 passthroughs gives 3s of quickness (it’s not generally feasible to catch it twice yourself, so you’ll usually only get 1.5s of that quickness). This duration can obviously be increased with boon duration stats.
  • It has no target limit. So you can hit an entire raid with the quickness, or a huge chunk of a WvW zerg with the stun.
  • Catching the same wall twice (for example, blinking in front of it before it hits max range) does not reduce the cooldown twice. It would give you quickness twice, though.
  • Catching two different walls (from yourself only) does reduce the cooldown twice. The only way to do this is to use f5 to throw out one wall, shift back, throw out the second wall, catch the first wall, catch the second wall. It’s tricky, and fun, but ultimately may be more trouble than it’s worth.

(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)

chrono in open world pve?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

what is better for open world pve (especially the new zones): normal mesmer or chrono?

Chrono. 25% movespeed > all. Once you don’t need the swiftness from TC, you’ll be surprised how much less appealing focus is.

I used to play a phantasm-build. The shield provides you with a block (is kinda ok) and a wall that gives you quickness for a short duration, but has really high cooldown. The focus I used before just feels much more useful with its damaging phantasm and additional reflects.

Shield is a utility/defense weapon. To compensate in open-world, your other weaponset needs to be a damaging weaponset. So you’ll stay in your damaging weaponset until you need the shield’s defense/cc, then swap over.
Additionally, you don’t need to use the shield for Chrono to pay off. Alacrity, movespeed and illusion uptime are the primary gains from Chrono, and you don’t need the shield for any of them. It has its benefits, and it’s really cool, but using something else doesn’t ruin the chrono.

Wells are mostly just for providing boons.

This is incorrect. Wells can be mostly just for providing boons. But Calamity does strong damage, Precog is a stunbreak and 3s free-flow invulnerability (ie, you can have it while still using skills), Action add slow on top of the quickness, and Recall adds one of the strongest debuffs in the game (chill). If you’re not keeping those capabilities in mind as you use your wells in open-world, you’re missing a large portion of their power.

But I dont feel like they are more important than things like feedback or blink. The elite-well is ok, but timewarp is more useful I guess?

Yes, TW is more useful in more situations. On the other hand, GW is massive breakbar-killing, which can be more useful with the right timing.
But what we’re hearing from people having success is that they take a mix. Some do still use Blink alongside one well, or two wells. Or one well, feedback and mimic. Or whatever. Taking all wells seems mostly to be an organized-group thing, maximizing team alacrity. But in open-world, where coordination is low, and you’ll find yourself alone as often as not? Go ahead and pick whatever you feel like. Wells are just another tool in the toolkit.

The F5-Skill is nice for things like double-tw, and the 25% speedboost ist really convinient. But still, talking about open world pve the normal mesmer seems more efficient.

Don’t use f5 for double-TW. Use it for 48-70s Time Warp. If you double TW, you’re just getting twice the TW duration on the same unbelievably long cooldown, and TW remains just a once-in-a-while burst.
But if you use it whenever you use f5, suddenly TW becomes as frequently useful as Mass Invis, or Gravity Well itself. In open-world, that’s a Big Deal.

Am I missing something? Or am I just playing chrono in the wrong way?

Yes, you are, but it’s understandable. Chrono’s skill cap is higher. Balancing alacrity is essential to getting the most out of it. Understanding exactly what you are doing to make use of crazy traits like Chronophantasma, Illusionary Reversion, All’s Well that Ends Well, Lost Time or even Danger Time is essential.

By comparison to other trait lines, most of the Chrono traits and benefits are active, that is, you need to shape your behavior around them in order to make full use of them.
To make use of Alacrity, you need to balance its uptime and know when you’ll have it and when you won’t. Popping alacrity with nothing on cooldown does nothing for you, popping alacrity with everything on cooldown has enormous benefits.
To make use of Chronophantasma, you need to be balancing your phantasms’ attack cycles with your shatter cycles, so that the shatter will make them attack sooner than normal. If you want to use Chronophantasma for more than just another shatter-fodder trait, you’ll also want to take Persistence of Memory and start keeping track of your phantasm summon cooldowns.
To make use of Illusionary Reversion’s incredible shatter-fodder capabilities, you need to be balancing all your other illusion-generating skills on the edge of a knife, so you don’t pop any shatters without having at least 2 illusions up already.
To make use of All’s Well that Ends Well, you need to be cycling through your wells intelligently, using F5 to its fullest potential, and coordinating positioning with your allies perfectly.

Frankly, the movespeed is one of the few parts of chronomancer that is passive at all.

Gearing for Open World GS/Staff ?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I have soloed all champs with my staff. I don’t solo champs with my GS.
\thread

Too much alacrity stacking

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

It seems reasonable to expect a maximum alacrity uptime similar to quickness uptime.

:channels Pyro:
Wish granted! Alacrity uptime is now harder to maintain than quickness uptime!
That was easy.

Shatter Chrono in PvE?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I have to strongly disagree that shatter builds are inferior to phantasms or a Elemtalist lava font, have you tried a build with endless illusion spamm and max cd reduce on shatter and phantasm? its literalle perma aoe bomb and just crazy, you also have up to 20-25 mightstacks yourself and support for your team, perma well active…. chrono did alot of work… negative point, you are spamming buttons 10x more than a elemtalist..

Yes, I have.
Spamming shatters gets you a Mind Wrack every 6.3 seconds. That’s better than the 10.5s we had before, but when you’re asking about pve numbers, you’re asking about dps. My point was that for the math to line up, you’d need a lot more than 40% cdr on Mind Wrack to make shatter dps competitive with other dps options.

You’ll note that I myself pointed out that they aren’t useless, but that they are burst rather than dps abilities. If you need to kill something big, do it with phantasms. If you need to kill lots of smaller things, shatters are still probably your best option.

So if the question is the numbers on shatters, the answer is no, they haven’t caught up to other classes on pve damage.

Per Embolism’s point, there is a way to synergize shatters with Phantasms via Chronophantasma and Persistence of Memory to improve phantasm dps. That’s not a shatter build, however, despite the shattering. Shattering on cooldown makes a viable Chronophantasma rotation impossible, and the Mind Wrack damage is actually adding relatively low dps to your total in that build. The bulk of the leg-work there is still coming from phantasms, and shortening their attack cycles through the shatter/summon rotations.

Edit: there’s also a solid shatter condi build that can be created, but I tend to assume that if people are talking about condi, they say so.
In BWE1 (before the IR nerf), I know that build was solidly competitive in pve dps.
After the nerf to IR, I believe such a build should still be viable via CP+IR+DE, but I was never able to work out a clear rotation to hit those levels…it’s super-complicated now, because you’ve gotta work on keeping up 2+ illusions per shatter, but you’re shattering so much that it makes even normal chronomancer look slow-paced (as far as button-mashing goes, to Amaya’s point).

(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)

Mesmer: Ineptitude Trait Bugged?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Hi, new-ish mesmer here. With the introduction of the shield I thought I’d check out this trait. The trait reads:

Cause confusion when you blind a foe. Blocking or evading an attack inflicts blind on your opponent.

When using this skill with scepter/shield the blocks from both weapons apply blind, but they do not apply confusion. Is this intended? Seems bugged to me. Blind from other sources (e.g., signet of midnight) work for me.

There is an internal cooldown per target for the blind. Perhaps it was on cooldown when you were expecting it to proc blind again?

[Idea]Clones dont overwrite phantasms PvEonly

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I don’t see it as being that simple, particularly if we are looking at a fix that doesn’t even bring us a spec that is up to par, while (potentially) radically changing the internal class balance.

Seriously overstating your case. As I said earlier, Pyro (Fay) has already created a version of the hyper-defensive build you are talking about while still maintaining some semblance of damage, and it didn’t require this change to accomplish.

If we were talking about just adding a ton of damage to one weapon, sure, your position is correct, but I don’t see bringing in a change that doesn’t fix things, even if it makes QoL slightly better to be benefical, if it causes problems elsewhere.

Except the only substantive problem you’ve raised is that a particular build will be able to put out more dps than it normally can, which is functionally equivalent to raising dps. And you still haven’t made a good case that those damage numbers are particularly concerning.

Not only is that still underestimating your figures, Lava Font comes in at 4.25k DPS using the same maths.

If I had to guess, I’d suggest you might be forgetting the duration increase from Persisting Flames.

[Idea]Clones dont overwrite phantasms PvEonly

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Ah, now we are having two different conversations.

You have two areas to compare:

1. Forcing players in a class into one particular playstyle, or build, as it has significant advantages over another.

2. Where the build(s) for any particular class fit within the overall metagame.

Our issues in 2 aside, my concern in this thread has always been around mesmers in and of themselves, rather than where we stand in the meta. Which is a different thing entirely.

See, the question of comparing mesmer to mesmer isn’t relevant when asking what’s too powerful or not. All that matters is how capabilities rate in context of the entire game. If a change like this makes a particular build more powerful than other mesmer builds, but not more powerful than other classes, that’s not an issue with the change, it’s an issue with all the other mesmer builds.

Regarding the numbers, I’m sure I have the mesmer numbers on a google doc somewhere. I’ll look them up tomorrow, maybe.
The Lava Font numbers were in an excel doc, so that’ll be harder to track down.

[Idea]Clones dont overwrite phantasms PvEonly

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Frankly, I can’t even remember the last time I looked at my tooltips, let alone considered what they are in relation to tangible damage output.

As a frequenter of the forum, I often check the dps numbers produced by others, and produce such numbers myself. I do so because claiming something is too powerful (or too weak), as you did, is meaningless without the math to back it up.

I’ll confess I did it without checking actual damage figures, because, that’s the cool thing about proportional analysis – it doesn’t matter what the actual figures are, it’s what they are in relation to each other that matter. It’s why I looked at proportional analysis to an accepted build/rotation rather than an absolute, so I didn’t need to spend hours accounting for accurate DPS figures per ability based on any given loadout.

It doesn’t matter what the actual figures are relative to other mesmer builds, it’s what they are in relation to the current dps leaders, and equivalent dps in similar roles.

I’ve run the maths again with my somewhat uninspiring Exotic Valk gear, and used http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAseRncfClphtfCmfCEgiFcjyMDylRqMAWtfpuVn1dF-TJBHABAcKAaZ/hsLDMwTAAA to come up with, super-glass zerk-only figures, and wound up with exactly the same proportional result, to within 1% each way.
My figures rock in at 98k total damage, theoretical max is 125k. (Lava Field at max gear rocks in at 61k tooltipped damage over 30s)
Our pre-HoT meta build, in comparison to one using clone-generators to bunker with impunity, does a little under twice the DPS, no matter what level you are, or what gear you have.

Something is still dramatically wrong with your numbers. That works out to 3200 dps, or 4166 dps max. I do more than that with bleeds alone on my condi staff build in regular play. It’s too low.
Your numbers on Lava Font are much too low, as well.

Having computed full, detailed rotation numbers myself a week or so ago for a full glass 3 iSwordsmen build and Lava Font, I found that the Mesmer was doing closer to 7k dps versus the Lava Font’s 10kish. With full group buffs, that took the mesmer to around 12-13k dps, and the Lava Font to around 17k dps. Adding the rest of the elementalist’s kit just makes the mesmer look like a child competing with adults.

[Idea]Clones dont overwrite phantasms PvEonly

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Uh… you do realise I was using tooltip numbers only, right? Like I clearly stated?

Because doing statistically significant testing to get actual numbers at this time of night is… not going to happen?

Also, just realised I was level synced down… new numbers incoming…

Dude, you quoted low-level numbers, and then continued talking as though they were self-evidently high.
It’s clear you have no yardstick by which to compare to decide if something is OP or not.
Accurate numbers will help, but you just made it clear you came into this discussion without even knowing what would be overpowered or not.

[Idea]Clones dont overwrite phantasms PvEonly

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Numbers time!

Using my mesmer’s current gear, in a 30 second window, with 3 iSwordsmen, it will put out 58470 units of damage (pre-stats and buffs). Using the bunker rotation, assuming no clones are generated, but the retaliation attacks still trigger (the scenario where clones don’t override Phantasms) it will put out 29993 (one iSwordsman, and 2 iAvengers, AA during bunker gaps).

This equates to 51% of full, glass DPS.

58,470/30 = 1949 dps.
Since Lava Font alone does around 10k dps under the same conditions (17k+ buffed), I’m not sure how you think this is significant.
The bunker build by your numbers is doing a paltry 999 dps. I do more damage than that with the burns from the staff AA on my condi build.

Certainly not a lot, but compared to the potential quadrupling of our life expectancy (only taking direct hits for 7.5 of those 30 seconds), it comes out as an buff of 104% in the ratio of Outgoing:Incoming damage. (that’s not a 4% increase, that’s double plus change)

How often are you dying in pve as it is?

I can’t decide for you if this is a build that you would want to be viable.
Personally, I’m happy to take the QoL hit to manage my phantasms to keep this out of viability.

Edit: should point out that the only gain the OP’s change would make to this build is 3 phantasms instead of 2. You did the math for all three, and assumed that would make your case. Neglecting the actual numbers you presented, you would need to compare them to the same build under the current regime to make your case.

That said,

The damage numbers you quoted are so pitiful that they made the case against your complaint better than I could have.

/thread.

(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)

[Idea]Clones dont overwrite phantasms PvEonly

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

It’s only an extra cost in Phantasm builds. Shatter/condi builds can work well with scepter.

The current rule is not a detriment to those particular builds, so they aren’t relevant. Changing the rule won’t benefit them, and it won’t harm them, so that’s a meaningless point.

Being able to sustain 3 iSwordsmen, while chaining Illusionary Counter/Riposte/Echo of Memory/Deja Vu would be, to be frank, obscene.

Assertion without facts in evidence. I disagree that the damage on any such build would be unusually high, so show me the math.

Even swapping iSwordsmen for iAvengers is a joke.

iAvenger dps is a joke. How do you imagine this build you’re formulating is doing damage?

Using a build like…

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAseRncfClphtfCmfCEgiFcjyMDylRqMAWtfpuVn1dF-TJBHABAcKAaZ/hsLDMwTAAA

I… wouldn’t like to think how long you could chain blocks and blurs for.

This was done. Pyro (Fay) has been testing it out, and has found it makes for a very solid bunker…but not an op one. Why not op? As he explained it yesterday, that window of no mitigation makes all the difference. A guardian bunker has to be whittled down, a chrono bunker has to be bursted on the right timing, and it all seems to even out atm, and that’s just in pvp.
In pve (which is all the OP is asking for), what are you accomplishing with your immortal build? Gimping your dps for more blocks than you’ll ever need?

I got down to 7.5 seconds out of every 30, without using Distortion and not accounting for Alacrity, where Blur or Block isn’t up. And that 30 second block ends with everything available to do it all again.

With swapping Lost Time to Chronophantasia, you can get it lower by Distortioning once.
With Alacrity, you could approach or even break 100% uptime on Blur and Block, while your phantasms do their work.

Obviously, it’s got weaknesses, and you’d wind up using 2 iAvengers, and an iSwordsman/Duellists, moving to 3 iAvengers, rather than 3 iSwordsmen/Duellists but still, that’s a lot of damage going out with some obscene defenses.

All of this is possible at present, and changing the rule won’t suddenly make it OP.
Again, if you think it will be too strong, show me the math. I am confident that you cannot.

I was thinking more along the lines of “oh no, I accidentally cloned and dropped a Phantasm, however will I… oh wait, shatter, two phantasms and a free spot to re-summon.”
It’s not perfect, sure, but its better than having to nix all three illusions to fix one Clone

You’ve still failed to provide a good reasoning for why we should have to accept that. “It’s harder” is not a good reason. “It’s too strong” has no evidence behind it. You’re continuing to assert that it “should” be the way it is, but there’s no philosophical reason why phantasms and clone abilities should be at odds.
Only power can decide this, and you’ve provided no convincing evidence of such.

[Idea]Clones dont overwrite phantasms PvEonly

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

That would only hold true if it were detrimental, instead of being an alternative.

The only cases where a clone overwriting a phantasm is better are extremely marginal, and there is no “alternative play style” that has enough of those marginal cases to make better use of it. Clones overwriting phantasms is an almost-universal cost in power, as there is essentially nothing a clone can do that an already-existing phantasm cannot.
This is not “an alternative”, it is a weakness.

There is only one situation where a clone generating skill outside of Scepter is a DPS gain, instead of a utility/defense choice, which is Mirror Blade at <600 range. All the other clone generators are from blocks/blinks.

There are 4 mainhand weapons with a clone generating skill. Of those, 2 do damage and 2 do not. The one offhand weapon that generates a clone (sword OH) does damage when it does so.
So 3/5 clone-generating weapon skills do damage.
Your count wasn’t just slanted, it wasn’t even correct.

By choosing to use scepter over sword, you choose to gain range and all its benefits, at the cost of significant QoL impact to managing phantasms, or sacrificing personal DPS, to not be stood within melee range of your target.

Scepter is already a strong dps loss over sword (true even before the recent 10% buff to sword). Giving up dps IS the cost of using range over melee across nearly all classes. This extra cost is not justified.

You are conflating having-multiple-playstyle-options-that-don’t-synergise-well-in-all-combinations" with “flaw”.

See above. The possible benefits of the current rule allowing clones to overwrite phantasms are so marginal that they may as well not be a consideration (as we discussed before). Further, as I said above, none of those marginal benefits can be consolidated in such a way as to create an “alternative playstyle” that benefits from it.
It is most certainly a flaw. If the flaw is intentional, then it is a cost with no commensurate benefit. If the flaw is unintentional, it should be rectified.

Sure, we don’t have clone death traits, but we still have shatters, and while replacing clones isn’t exactly helpful, it’s not overly harmful either. Replacing phantasms with clones = bad, replacing clones with clones = meh

Yes, and there lies the problem. Any build that uses phantasms is penalized by using one of our two mainhand weapon, but not compensated for that cost. Scepter is slow, unwieldy, does less damage than sword, and has less utility (blurred frenzy >> illusionary counter). Furthermore, it was originally formulated in an environment with clone death traits. If it was balanced then, then it is surely underpowered now. And there is abundant indication that it wasn’t balanced then either.

My iSwordsman disagrees with you. Sure, it’s only available in the offhand.

:rolleyes:

15% increased attack speed and 20% CD reduction? Speeding up Ether Clone cycles, and making Illusory Counter available more often? If it’s not intending to improve clone generation, it does a pretty good job by mistake.

Yes, that last part. CD Reduction is standard on weapon traits, believing it was designed to increase clone generation is ridiculous. That’s certainly a side-effect, albeit a small one (CD reduction doesn’t affect AA).
Attack speed was almost certainly a reaction to the common complaint that scepter is slow as hell. Indeed, attack speed pops up in traits for multiple classes. Are you suggesting that it was meant to improve their clone generation? On the contrary, the attack speed is surely meant as its own reward, and the clone increase is a side-effect.

We have bigger issues than phantasms and clones mutually overriding. Particularly given Chronophantasia offers a viable fix for some situations.

Chronophantasma actually makes it worse, kittentering your 3 phantasms doesn’t immediately open room for a clone, so you have to wait until you’ve shattered twice before you can afford to pop another clone.

The only possible reason to prefer the current rule is if you believe that phantasm builds should not be able to use the scepter as a primary weapon.
That means you also believe that phantasm builds should not be able to be fully ranged, as pistol/torch are offhand only, and staff is clearly not a dps weapon.

But what reason have you given for that belief?
Vague references to “alternate playstyles”.

Okay, put your money where your mouth is. Show me a build that would be benefited unfairly by a change to this rule. If you think a phantasm build would become too strong, show me the math.

Shatter Chrono in PvE?

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Has anyone ran the numbers for a shatter Mesmer in PvE? I feel like with alacrity and the large number of ways to generate clones now that this could be quite good. I was thinking greatsword and sword/shield. Shattering also gives us vulnerability application, more alacrity, and might if traited.

Shatter dps is just atrocious. Shatters would literally have to have a cooldown of 2s to compete with ele Lava Font alone, and you’d have to have full illusions for all those shatters, to boot.

That’s not to say that shatters are useless, but alacrity does very little to change the basic design that they are burst, and not dps abilities.

[Idea]Clones dont overwrite phantasms PvEonly

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Personally, I’m not in favour of it.

Phantasm builds are about damage, with utility and support being sacrificed for those sweet, sweet phatasm attacks. Loss of sword 3 mobility, running the risk of overwrites with sword 4, loss of might from GS2, all choices you need to make.

Scepter, and it’s traits are all about clone generation (it’s our only weapon without a phantasm after all). Maybe you should look at Shatter as an alternative if you want to play Scepter?

Riddled with holes…
“choices you need to make” is a terrible justification for a detrimental mechanic. And we have no evidence at all that there’s any kind of power gain to compensate for that flaw in our design. Previously, clone death traits made it feasible to work with. Those were removed, but the bad mechanic remains. Your reasoning here is flawed and baseless.

Sword also doesn’t have a phantasm.
Scepter only has one trait, and there’s no indication that it is meant to have anything to do with clone generation.

Maybe you need to learn the class better before you try to defend one of its biggest flaws?

@OP: I don’t think any of the reasons to keep the current state of affairs in PvP hold water. Make this change in all formats.

Illusionary Avenger (coeff/bugged attackrate)

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Nah, it didn’t apply aclarity to self, only to nearby allies. 3x avengers were attacking every 3.5s or so (no boon duration or Improved Aclarity trait). However, accounting for this won’t be necessary if you’re in a full party since I’m pretty sure players will get priority and other avengers won’t get it.

Yeah, that’s what I meant.
If your testing had been solo, in theory the avengers would have been introducing alacrity into their own cycles, and would therefore have been revealing a different cooldown.

The cycle of interest, though, is the one you’ll have in a group, where the avengers have too many player targets to be able to mess with their own cooldowns.

Illusionary Avenger (coeff/bugged attackrate)

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Was the avenger receiving alacrity from itself?
If so, how would that change your numbers?

Sinister vs. Rabid vs. Viper's

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Hello fellow mesmer,

just a quick question regarding condition gear in PvE and PvP.
Which stat combination makes more sense or is more viable for a condi/hybrid shatter spec?

Thanks in advance and keep having fun at chronomancing. ^-^

Full condi: Rabid/Sinister (depending how glass you want to be)
Hybrid: Not rabid.

Between Viper and Sinister, the jury’s still out. I’ll get around to the math eventually, but I’m pretty busy this week.

Seize the Moment/Flow of Time

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

think it might become way too strong with this change, but it would be funnnnn

It’s long been noted that quickness isn’t as strong on mes as on other classes, so I hardly think an extra second would tip it into OP territory at all.
And since it’s already weaker than chronophantasma, it’s more likely to just make it actually competitive.

Phantasmal Warlock, bad synergy?

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Since AI is a lot of work, just up the damage and/or duration on these “damaging control” conditions such that the sustained dps is on par with bleed/burn. Mobs don’t post “OP condi meta” whine threads :P

^
So very much this.
It’s a simple split.

Malicious Sorcery fixed?

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

The ‘huge amount of rage’ after the last update was in response to the changes to Necro’s scepter. Mesmers would also like their Scepter skills improved. Specifically, most would agree that the Clone produced from the AA is a hindrance to the scepter’s overall function and would prefer it removed.

Probably that too, but there was also a stink about Malicious Sorcery.

MS was broken for some time after the June 23rd patch to not be adding the attack speed increase. Sometime between then and now, it was fixed.
And there was much rejoicing.
And then we realized that it still kinda sucks for a GM trait.

At least it gets some use now, though. That’s more than you can say for Mistrust.

Generic "okay, this is cool" thread

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

So I’m creating this thread so I (and anyone who feels like it) can just post “okay, this is cool” whenever you find something new you like.

My turn: Superior Sigil of Absorption – Steal up to 3 boons when interrupting an enemy (no icd).
Because lolinterrupts.

Is this in game?

I spotted it in the inventory of the Itzl vendor right at the entrance to the Verdant Brink. So you’ll need to up your Itzl masteries.
Not in sPvP, though, sadly.

Still for those who wvw a lot against all those boon happy classes it sounds like its worth checking out.

Well, and with no internal cooldown, it makes it a tempting addition to my “tides of time the snot out of the enemy zerg” build. AoE interrupt for aoe confusion, aoe boon strip, immobilizes, boons, damage, vuln, slow…

Generic "okay, this is cool" thread

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

So I’m creating this thread so I (and anyone who feels like it) can just post “okay, this is cool” whenever you find something new you like.

My turn: Superior Sigil of Absorption – Steal up to 3 boons when interrupting an enemy (no icd).
Because lolinterrupts.

Is this in game?

I spotted it in the inventory of the Itzl vendor right at the entrance to the Verdant Brink. So you’ll need to up your Itzl masteries.
Not in sPvP, though, sadly.

Generic "okay, this is cool" thread

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Doing AC dungeon path 3 and discover that I can stun the graveling burrow objects with my Tides of Time. I don’t know if that’s consider “cool”, but it was not what I expected.

Hilariously cool, I think.

Generic "okay, this is cool" thread

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

So I’m creating this thread so I (and anyone who feels like it) can just post “okay, this is cool” whenever you find something new you like.

My turn: Superior Sigil of Absorption – Steal up to 3 boons when interrupting an enemy (no icd).
Because lolinterrupts.

Balance Changes

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

All valid and true points but I am hoping that the change to AoE damage will help the ileap clone live long enough now that it can regain some of its former defensive value.

Those aoe changes don’t apply to pvp.

Balance Changes

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I actually like the current version. What issues do you have with it?

It’s clunky and slow, providing relatively less benefit than equivalent gap closers from other classes (most of which are an attack on top of being a gap closer).
The premise that you can swap with a clone would be cool if it actually fooled anyone, or even if you weren’t relying on the clone to survive.

Well of Precognition

in Mesmer

Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

It gives a stack of stability in order to prevent its interruption. If that stack gets stripped and followed by another cc, though, it could get interrupted.

The stunbreak part itself cannot be interrupted, that occurs right at the beginning of the cast. But as with any stunbreak, getting out of stun doesn’t automatically save you from a followup stun.

Edit: think of it as counterplay to the counterplay. Any stun break can be countered by stunning again. Blink requires you to track the target and be in range, decoy requires you to reveal them or catch them while invisible, well of precog requires you to break the stability and then re-stun before the channel ends, or you’ll have to wait out the 3s of blur.

(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)