Guild Wars 2

I see what you’re getting at. But I think when you see the access to such sustain, utility and boons that it’s really not all that impressive. Lets use that build for example:

Your protection access is pretty much nil since the only way you’ll get it is through VoC which is on an 86 second cd for a 5 second duration. Afterwards, you’re looking at being subjected to some serious burst.

Vigor as we know it is going to be nerfed but let me give my personal reasons for running it. As I’ve stated before, you’re limited to your boon access so I honestly believe that vigor is the only thing keeping me alive in my dps build.

Meditations provide excellent burst healing but are not viable in a much longer fight. 3/4 meditations are on long cd’s. Investing 30 into Valor to achieve this is fair but since there’s no other way to sustain(outside of AH), it’s a must.

Just to go off-topic for a second, if the Guardian were to receive Healing Signet, you’d never survive when utilizing a dps build. The lack of long duration invulnerability prevents this. Now obviously if you allow this while keeping Shelter, it becomes grossly OP.

Again, i’m speaking from an sPvP point of view so your experience outside of that will differ.

I like the suggestions we have such as it applying a boon to the Guardian. I don’t think it needs to be just about hindering one’s opponent.

To comment on CMF’s earlier post about sustain, we are pigeon-holed into speccing so far into Valor for any sort of sustain that speccing into anything outside of that is pretty much certain death(0/0/5/30/30 bunker builds excluded). Allowing for the ability to achieve some sustain without being forced into one tree would promote more dynamic builds.

At first I looked at Zealous Blade and thought this was a neat idea to give the Guardian sustain but limit their abilities since the only way one could achieve such sustain was to never swap. Obviously doing this would eventually get you killed since that skillset isn’t fast enough as others in terms of providing consistent damage.

Edit: Also, outside of PvE; Mace and Hammer will give you almost no protection uptime for obvious reasons(mobility). Going to edit the OP to include these suggestions.

Absolutely, i’d love to see it. Do you mean Zealots Embrace or Chains of light?

Right, i’m just basing this off of what I believed the trait was supposed to accomplish. I’m fine keeping sustain to certain trees so you can’t have the best of both worlds.

Fair enough, just my issue is why bother giving it such a miniscule amount in the first place? I’d be fine if they did something like CrazyCanuck and had a different effect upon burning. I thought that was a pretty good idea.

I actually really like your suggestion. I just think one issue is that Zeal offers barely any sustain. This would reduce it to zero.

I see no problem there. I was actually thinking they just remove the % increase and focus on the healing factor. Your idea could work and help those understand that you can’t have everything.

That’s fine, I completely understand. That’s why I’m more than willing to compromise. Aside from my zealous blade suggestion, I’m not sure what other suggestions I’ve made that are outlandish as this.

Now that we’ve gotten past that, lets move forward to a balanced change.

I never succumbed to frustration but rather understanding that I was off. I don’t appreciate the personal attacks. As far as your suggestion goes, that seems fair. Hopefully others may offer some input on what they’d like to see changed.

And just to reiterate, there were downsides that were listed. I guess this was ignored as a well. Also, there’s no such thing as right or wrong in a discussion for what one considers to be fair. So get off your high horse.

It’s fair enough, all I’ve been suggesting was from an sPvP point of view for balance. There’s a reason why skill-splitting has been so beneficial. I honestly didn’t take into account the PvE aspect because it’s something I didn’t care much about. Split the skill then if that’s your intention. My goal was never to create an overpowered profession that’s ridiculously to play. I also appreciate that you used to watch my stream. The thing is this has not stemmed from any sort of rage but rather a proposal to make a trait into something useful.

Derailing this thread into what I rage about doesn’t contribute to the discussion at hand. Not agreeing me is one thing, judging someone over it is another. You’ve made your point and I acknowledge that yes, it probably will be too strong. So instead of mulling over the obvious now, lets discuss a way to make it not so strong.

Edit: Here’s a change i’d like to see then.

-Reduce it to 100-200(ballpark)
-Have it scale back to healing power since it’s soooo unheard of to change it to something else.

Ok, then reduce it. Once again, the last sentence in the OP was to ask for suggestions. Getting snarky over this helps no one. Propose a more balanced change then.

Alright, here we go:

Hammer on Warrior is VASTLY different when compared to the Guardian’s Great sword. You can’t compare the two, especially when the utility/damage of one completely outweighs the other.

I still stand by my point that it’s very difficult to land consistent damage with the GS. 300 health a hit isn’t going to keep you alive vs. someone who can easily avoid your damage.

What mobility are you talking about? Meditation Guardians have very little mobility and no soft cc. Not to mention Meditations aren’t a sustainable skillset, AH is. 3/4 meditations are on very long cds. Also, if traits aren’t balanced based on the cost, why do we have tiers? We might as well go back to beta where everything was available. Once again, you make no sense.

Balance is absolutely achieved by changing individual traits, along with skillsets. Skill-splitting allows for the ability to not have to look at EVERY aspect of this game. If you had to do so, it would take forever(if not longer) to achieve meaningful balance. I actually looked at this mostly through the mind of a Meditation Guardian. As I’ve stated before, that spec is meant for burst healing, not sustain. Having a little bit of sustain through one weapon isn’t going to make the Guardian a God of sustain.

Edit: Also, Great sword (in spvp) is one of the worst weapons I’ve ever used. Each skill is too slow and easily avoidable. Not to mention the average damage when heavily invested into power.

CnaeusDane.2938:

The original suggestion would just make guardians op. Ah only gives 70 a boon and is still extremely powerful if you just use it with might on crit. A hammer greats word meditation combo with that would be ridiculous. The problems with guardians stem more from our lack of soft cc and easy access mobility than sustain. We can sustain rather well it’s just that we can’t land the hits to finish off our opponents.

Honestly the fake balance patch, particularly the symbols give cripple on pulse would have been the greatest thing to happen to guardians in the game. Even if they changed it to a 25 trait and made it 1 second of cripple on symbol activation.

Tl;dr: suggestion adds to the games power creep by allowing ridiculous sustain in dps.

Ah is very situational and only powerful within a group. Not to mention the only skill that maximizes this effect is Empower. A hammer/great sword combo would be an extremely weak combination given how easily you’ll be kited without any way to keep up with your target.

I honestly don’t think you read the op to see the various counters to this trait.

Of course not,. I just think the suggestion made is reasonable.

Yamsandjams.3267:

I didn’t read all the above posts, but it’s worth noting that the healing provided is per target hit. As such, if you’re cleaving people with your attacks, the healing effect multiplies.

This can make certain CC abilities like bane signet, signet of wrath, zealot’s embrace, ring of warding, and binding blade to be very important when using that trait. For instance, if you trap a few people in ring of warding, you can use whirling wrath to gain a lot of healing.

I find it’s also sometimes useful just for being a bit more tanky while also dealing good damage with the greatsword, but I usually don’t go that deep into the zeal tree with the builds I like to use.

I understand it’s provided per hit, i’m suggesting that be changed so it doesn’t become too strong. The example I was using was if you hit two people with your Auto-attack, instead of getting healed twice, you get healed once.

I’d be fine with just getting rid of the 5% damage bonus all together and make it something unique and useful. I think instead of damage, sustain is needed in this line.

Thing is, i’m not suggesting a massive boost in how much you get healed for. Not to mention you’re not going to sit on GS forever because if someone realizes you’re using that trait, they’ll just kite you and force you into a different weaponset.

I think scaling with Power is reasonable. This only works with one weapon, that is a very big weakness to this trait. If you’re going to isolate this to only one weapon, it needs to be strong, especially if it’s a melee weapon with little mobility.

Edit: It feels like a few completely miss the points I’ve given in the OP about how there are very many weaknesses to this trait, even if powered up. It’s not as if this applies to all weapon-types and does amazing work. (Cleansing Ire for example)

I like that idea. You couldn’t run a bunker spec with it. This change sounds reasonable.

Edit: I still believe it should only heal on hit per skill activation. Keeping it as is would be dangerously op.

The same could be said about AH. Most of your healing comes from empower. Sure you get a bit from other sources, but it’s not nearly the same.

Well obviously you’d have to do a lot of re-balancing. This just seems like a long-term solution to a boring mechanic.

Absolutely, i’m just advocating for some sustain outside of bunkering. Obviously I don’t want it to be on the same level because then bunkers wouldn’t be needed. As you stated, you would need to allow for such sustain to be achieved outside of normal bunker means. Zeal is a complete mess with the minor traits alone, not to mention other than Fiery Wrath, there’s no incentive to go past 10 points.

Edit: A lot of the Guardian’s bunker capability comes from constant dodge-healing. This is being toned down with the nerf to Vigorous precision. I think Energy Sigils should also be nerfed to avoid the constant dodge-spamming from all professions.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Arken.3725:

I just don’t see an issue with the Courage change. Guardians lack protection access outside of bunkering.

Wha?! O.o

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protection
I dunno, I see a lot of blue shields on that page.

Protector’s Strike shouldn’t even be on there, it’s used as a counter against stronger skills I don’t think I’ve ever been given protection once when used in the heat of battle. Contemplation of Purity has a long cd and has quite a bit of RNG attached to it. Shield of Judgement got nerfed in spvp to only give 3 seconds of protection.

The only way to keep up a decent amount of protection would be to keep your target from moving and spamming AA on Hammer. This obviously isn’t going to happen.

I’m not saying give the Guardian a ton of access to protection, all i’d like to see is a bit more sustain for those builds outside of bunkering.

Agreed. Also one thing I’ve noticed about the discussion about traits/skills is that everyone wants to have everything. If this were the case, we’d never need tiers for traits. There needs to be some give to build your character and you can’t have everything. Heavy investment prevents you from being the master of all trades, which should always be the case.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Arken.3725:

Two shouts provide protection, one with a very long cd and short duration. VoC is the same. Unless you can keep your target forever in your symbol of protection, it’s useless. I’m talking from an spvp point of view.

Edit: Heck, in a lot of cases, Engineers, Ele’s and Rangers have access to more protection without needing to spec bunker.

The problem with that though is that you cannot exclude WvW and PvE when talking about a complete mechanic change. You have to consider all sides of gameplay.

Normally this would be the case but if they keep splitting skills/traits between game modes, I feel it only makes sense to balance one differently than the other.

Edit: I completely agree Jaxom, the last thing we need is another HS. The reason why I believe the changes I suggested would be balanced would be mainly because of the trait commitment and long cd upon activation. A lot of other traits/skills given by other professions don’t require as much investment, nor do they have long icd’s to deal with.

Two shouts provide protection, one with a very long cd and short duration. VoC is the same. Unless you can keep your target forever in your symbol of protection, it’s useless. I’m talking from an spvp point of view.

Edit: Heck, in a lot of cases, Engineers, Ele’s and Rangers have access to more protection without needing to spec bunker.

I just don’t see an issue with the Courage change. Guardians lack protection access outside of bunkering.

I’m assuming you’re talking about BS? That would be the case if it actually revealed the target. I just don’t think that one block does anything significant.

One of the main reasons I was advocating protection on a crit proc is because Guardians(spvp) have very limited protection access. Almost zero in dps builds.

foofad.5162:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

snip

Warhammer did the same thing. Aura “twisting” was a really unfortunate reality of those classes. It was fun for the first five minutes, then you quickly looked for a way to macro it.

Agreed, I played a Kotbs and I completely understand. The last thing we need is a change from an incredibly boring mechanic(signets) to something that encourages spamming then swap.

Well I look at say Elementalists profession mechanic and it most certainly seems to be quite a bit more interactive/fun. I think if the skills themselves were balanced properly, staying on one virtue would be to your own demise. The problem with Courage is that 1 block every 40 seconds(30 traited) is honestly nothing of benefit aside from maybe a lucky block on a powerful skill. Combat moves so fast and skills active so quickly that it’s nearly impossible to utilize or keep track of when the next Aegis will activate.

foofad.5162:

Arken.3725:

Edit to foofad above: Even if you traited 30 into virtues, the passives themselves would be even worse because the actives power was just increase exponentially.

I was responding to Laharl about the actives being unused by some people, because there is no incentive to use them if you don’t have Virtues. I agree that the actives become more useful as you invest further in to Virtues; That’s the whole point of the Virtues line, really. That doesn’t make the passives worse though, it makes them less important than the actives.

I don’t know if I believe that entirely. Again, if this was the sole purpose was just to assist your group, why bother even having a passive? I just believe that both sides should see a decent power increase when traited. This was just a temporary idea to make them better. I’d love it if they were turned into something else entirely.

Edit: I agree it’s better than none but when you’re a bunker, this virtue is almost always on cd because there’s really no strategic way to utilize it except to just increase your parties damage potential.

If you’re speccing bunker, you won’t notice Justice since your damage output is pretty much zero. You’re then left with Resolve which can impact your fight.

But the thing is, I barely even notice the passives(spvp). I can honestly say these have never assisted me in battle in any significant way. The comparison to healing signet is a bit off I think, with a low base-health and limited invulnerability, I don’t think it would be nearly as strong. Not to mention the cds on each virtue are obscenely long.

Edit to foofad above: Even if you traited 30 into virtues, the passives themselves would be even worse because the actives power was just increase exponentially.

Edit again: Just a little off-topic, if you were to give the Guardian Healing Signet, no one in spvp would take it. Why? because just as I stated above, your health is too low and your options to mitigate burst over long periods don’t exist. I’d still take Shelter.

I understand that, but then why bother having passive effects? I completely get the reason behind utilizing them within a group setting but not by yourself.

Heyo, just continuing to post about skills/traits that I think need some rework. Today’s discussion will be about Virtues. As it stands, these are essentially Signets. Normally though, signets have a powerful selfish effect and then a long cd active, this does not seem to be the case for Virtues. The passive effects for all three are incredibly underwhelming and become even worse when you trait into them. I am proposing that both effects be useful for their respective purposes.

Before I go on about a temporary fix to these, I would like to introduce an idea for a more permanent/interactive solution. I would like for each Virtue to be an attunement/stance in the long term. Example would be a Guardian picks a Greatsword for their weapon and switches between three virtues for a different set of skills within each virtue. This is very similar to Elements. You’d have an offensive Virtue(Justice), Defensive(Courage) and support(Resolve). I think most would agree this would allow for better play instead of just three long cd signets.

Onto my temporary fix. I propose that each passive(when traited) increase in power exponentially. The active gained when traiting these virtues completely overshadows the passive, regardless if you’re in a group or alone. The passives were meant to be as a selfish/solo solution that would assist the Guardian by him/herself only. The problem here is the actives are so much more powerful, that in most cases, you wouldn’t even notice the passive effects. Here’s an example of what I would like to see:

Virtue of Justice: Passive is now changed to every 10 successful hits, the Guardian gains 2-3 seconds of Fury.

Virtue of Resolve: Passive has been increased to 200-250 hp/sec(when traited). 150 when un traited.

Virtue of Courage: Passive is changed to grant the Guardian 2-3 seconds of protection whenever he’s critically hit, ICD 10-15 seconds (when traited). 1-2 seconds un traited.

I honestly believe the passive effects from both Resolve and Courage are incredibly weak. I understand that passive play is terrible for this game and I would see it gone completely to more of an interactive style I stated above. However, this is a short-term solution to what is inherently three VERY LONG cd signets with poor passives.

I understand the argument for a proper condition spec, i’m just discussing one of the traits on our Power line that needs tweaking.

The last thing I want is to make it too strong. With heavy trait investment, you’re not going to be able to pull off the normal bunker/support build. I think with the weaknesses/investments pointed out, it could potentially be balanced.

There are many sacrifices to this trait if implemented the way I suggested, notabot. Virtues healing for 84/sec is a joke, especially when you’re using the active quite often not only for your group but for a decent heal since the regen is very low.

That could work with maybe some of the minors in Zeal. I’d say that every one of those is pretty subpar.

I understand Jax, I just believed that the concept of Zealous Blade was to provide a good amount of sustain through GS with a heavy trait investment.

Edit: I understand that Aedrion, just from a technical standpoint it seems VERY easy to adjust.

But why can’t it be done? I’m sure it’s very simple switching around the scaling.

Hey guys, just thought i’d give my opinion on its current state and what I think would be a good change for it. The concept sounded really neat when it was first introduced to the Guardian profession a few months after release. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a severe let-down. 25per hit is incredibly underwhelming, even when stacked with HP, you’re looking at about 44.

Here’s my idea to make it an excellent trait. First-off, make it a Grandmaster again. Second, change it where it only heals per skill usage on hit. Meaning that if I hit two people with an AA, I only get healed once. Obviously, only make this work with GS. Lastly, Increase the heal per hit to 300-400 and have it scale with power, not healing power.

Some of you may believe this is too strong but let me list the weaknesses.

1. Stuck on one weapon-set the whole time.
2. One of the Guardian’s biggest weaknesses is mobilty/soft cc so if you get kited, you’re looking at no return.
3. Grandmaster investment.
4. Limited to skill activation upon hit. Meaning you can’t blindly swing your weapon and get healed.

If you guys have better suggestions, lets hear em’. I’d love to make this trait useful.

Edit: Suggestions from Others:

-Separating Zealous Blade into two traits, one for damage and the other for sustain.

-Remove the healing, Whenever you apply Burning you Cripple your target for 3 seconds. 10 sec ICD.

-Small chance to apply party Protection upon crit.

-Increase scaling to .1, moderate Healing Power for moderate sustain.

- Change to % upon hit.

foofad.5162:

Biggest tip-off was probably the EM change. They’d never take off an ICD.

Negative, the biggest tip-off was the proposed Necromancer Mark increase. It’s already 180. Also, how is this not a possible consideration? It’s a terrible master trait. It belongs in no build that I can find.

Lets hope Spirit weapons never become a viable option. Imagine have a MM necro, Spirit Ranger and a SW Guardian in one match. If you plan on Running Sword/focus, Scepter/torch, you’re going to be a nightmare for Necros and Engineers.

As someone who Spvp’s most of the time, I can potentially speccing quite differently as a dps Guardian. With the new implementation of cripple upon symbol activation(not sure if it’s per tick), Hammer will make a possible comeback, along with Scepter and Focus being very powerful as a second weapon-set.

Alright i’ll be honest, I like these Changes. Especially with Torch. I still think the Vigorous precision change was a rough one since as a dps guardian, this was so significant in keeping me alive. Still won’t touch Litany of Wrath or the Spirit weapons. Glacial Heart is still too weak to bother with, Hydromance sigils are still better by comparison. Empowering might….wow. This is such a HUGE change for AH Guardians. This will no doubt, improve their team support/sustain.

It’s true, more choices aren’t something outrageous to ask for. I just fear that this tanky meta to continue. Granted you could introduce something like this and balance appropriately and it could work out very well. I’m hoping this would be the case.

That’s my biggest fear Blackbeard, I think this will only makes things worse, regardless of how good the intention.

I can sympathize with your suggestions Phanta. However, i’d just like to see a reduction of the current defensive traits instead of adding new ones.