I’m also a fan of more direct play. Receiving damage to deal it back seems less skillful to me. This doesn’t just apply to retal but all forms of traits that activate under certain circumstances under low cooldowns.
I think giving us more access to passive traits might help. Looking over the trees in each section, there aren’t any significant minors that offer help with sustainability besides vigorous precision. I’m fine with the current health pool, just I think there needs be more ways to sustain outside of symbols. I think retaliation is a poor way to fight back against other players. If we’re to keep it, maybe lower the duration and significantly increase the damage reflected?
My bad man, sorry. Just your post was just below mine. =)
I’d really like it if we kept this thread civil. Maybe we can find common ground on how to embrace or adjust this profession better.
It’s easy to keep things civil when people don’t spew nonsense.
I hope you’re not insinuating anything. Like CMF stated, i’m trying to look at things in a more constructive manner rather than spamming, “nerf warz or buff gurds!” This isn’t to tout anything but I believe what I’ve stated is correct, when sacrificing mobility in a game that requires constant movement, said skills should provide a significant benefit compared to those that do not.
I’d really like it if we kept this thread civil. Maybe we can find common ground on how to embrace or adjust this profession better.
I’m not very familiar with Warrior, I just made a small build to show its capability. I’m not discounting the Guardian, all i’m stating is that by doing nothing more then hitting your target/getting hit, you can achieve similar regeneration as a Guardian without sacrificing mobility in the process.
The Guardians support through virtues/shouts is excellent. These provide such crucial boons to your team and assist you towards victory. I don’t think there’s any dispute to this. I’ve played spvp for about 90% of the time since I bought this game and I love my it. I just think a few things need to be looked at is all.
And also CMF, these cannot be dispelled(except the regen) through boon-ripping means. So you’re able to stay mobile while retaining pretty decent sustain. Add-on the fact that it’s very easy to gain adrenaline so that specific trait can be up for quite a while.
Again, this is just me comparing/contrasting each professions ability to sustain and the conditions each must be in to achieve it.
It ticks every 3 seconds instead of every 1. I’m suggesting that with such a mobile combat system, if one is forced to stay within a small circle to gain maximum benefit, it should be much stronger than those that do not. I also believe that if your abilities require long windups/animations that they should be very damaging or provide a significant benefit.
(edited by Arken.3725)
The problem with retaliation and burn on block is both the small damage(retaliation) and short duration burns from blocking. The mechanic behind condition conversion is a little lopsided since the condi’s you convert don’t last nearly as long as the boons converted into conditions.
I made a small video showcasing a Berserker warrior with its potential healing due to traits/healing skill. Notice I sacrifice zero mobility to attain it.
http://www.twitch.tv/elricalphonse/b/443785381
This isn’t to bash the balancing of the game but rather to show that there isn’t anything sacrificed to gain such regeneration. At times I was getting nearly nearly 1k health every 3 seconds.
I also did a test for the Guardians regenerative abilities with symbol of faith, VoR, symbol heals and AH. It came out to be 550hp/tick.
I think the biggest problem with retaliation is that it only hinders fast attacking low damaging abilities, which not all classes/builds use.
So the slow/hard hitting abilities out pace retaliation, which kills us faster than we can kill them.
To answer that we need something that we can apply directly back, which would seem to scream burning damage as our response, but it has been shown time and time again it isn’t enough to warrant a threat when coming from guardians.
Maybe we should do more research into condi bunkers? Or find a hybrid with condi/retal bunkers. It has been done before in the past, but always lacked survival, but maybe we are smarter now with game mechanics.
I’ve actually given this a go with very little results. Guardians have limited applications for burning outside of torch. Even with Judges Intervention/VoJ, you’re looking at a very short duration burn. Without traits to boost the application for this condition(burn on crit), I believe it will only supplement our damage instead of being something we can turn to as an alternative.
Not only do you sacrifice offense but also mobility in the process for sustainability. In comparison to say a Warrior who traits into adrenaline heal/signet, you’re looking at around 400/hp a tick with another 410 every 3rd tick without sacrificing any mobility whatsoever. I think if you’re stuck in a specific spot due to some of your professions mechanics, it should be inherently stronger than those with mobility
The real strengths of the Guardian are in it’s ability to hold a point more than anything else. To me, this is counterintuitive to the games design of mobile combat. This along with no real utilities that benefit just us for a longer period and instead using skills to help ourselves as well as others for a rather short period of time(5 seconds usually).
I mostly play spvp and from my experiences the Guardian excels mostly when supporting over damage(I think everyone knows this). The Guardian has very few passive traits that offer substantial benefit besides Vigorous precision. I think since the main benefit for guardians relies heavily on symbols, it should be substantial. Quite a few other professions can maintain significant survivability while staying mobile.
With less than desirable mobility, burst damage, escapability, obviously telegraphed skills, condition application, skills that heavily rely upon being near teammates for full effect and a few others. One would think we would be stronger in more areas than just support.
I’m not saying this profession is kitten, this is absolutely not the case since all teams run with at least one Guardian. However, said Guardian is always the bunker to provide support for their team and nothing else. With the recent Warrior buffs, they’re getting dangerously close if not on par with Guardians in terms of personal condition management. I guess with the current meta, this is expected.
I always compare this profession to the warrior since it closely resembles it. If we were to compare/contrast each professions viability overall, I think it would look something like this.
Burst: Warrior>Guardian
Mobility: Warrior>Guardian
Condition application: Warrior>Guardian
Support: Guardian>Warrior
Personal Condition management: Warrior=Guardian
Team condition removal: Guardian>Warrior
Escapability: Warrior>Guardian
I want to improve both professions to be viable in any situation. Hopefully we can have a discussion on how to make them all worthwhile.
I’d beg to differ but I play a different kind of Guardian. I’d like to think I found the “sweet” spot to not only be a decent bunker, but also provide pressure to the opposing team.
Tier S:
Spirit Ranger
Necromancer
Tier A
S/D Thief
Engineer
Guardian
Elementalist
Mesmer
Tier B:
Warrior
I hate to keep beating this dead horse but with the current (condi) meta, it’s quite a downfall from how things used to be. One of the issues are the ease of condi applications with the ability to be relatively tanky. This is more prevalent in Necromancers vs. other professions because at least with Engineer and Ranger, there takes a bit more skill to apply said condi’s(nades being thrown, travel time with bullets, obviousness of ranger traps when thrown). Necromancers seem to fall away from this category while being able to mitigate significant damage through DS, prot and plague. At least with the former meta (physical) it required SIGNIFICANT more skill to land damage because of the obviousness of the animations.
We move onto Spirit rangers which to me, require the least amount of skill and gain significant benefit. No other AI in this game can support a group better than spirits. Being the masters of dodge, decent prot uptime, tankiness and decent condition damage application(through spirits) with very little skill involved astonishes me.
While other issues need to be addressed in terms of balance, these seem to be obvious and has a higher impact on the meta. Warriors when utilizing stuns and team support(elite banner) will probably move up to tier A.
Great job all around. I missed the whole thing but I’m sure it was a blast to be in for those that were. those that participated and didn’t make it to the finals, don’t despair! This is healthy competition and it allows everyone to look back and become better as a team. :-)
I wasn’t able to watch but did envy have their original roster?
We did.
We had a strong initial team fight win but couldn’t pull it together after a first wipe.
Was good games tho :P
All good man It’s a great experience man. I envy you, no pun intended. ;-) I bet they were some great matches.
When I get off tomorrow, I’d like to hear a breakdown if you guys don’t mind.
I wasn’t able to watch but did envy have their original roster?
We did.
We had a strong initial team fight win but couldn’t pull it together after a first wipe.
Was good games tho :P
All good man It’s a great experience man. I envy you, no pun intended. ;-) I bet they were some great matches.
I wasn’t able to watch but did envy have their original roster?
I use either Divinity or Pack. I find Pack runes to be extremely underrated. The stat boosts alone are worth it.
Hopefully the kinks are sorted out when it’s time for you guys Defek.
Surprisingly enough, Inner fire isn’t really that useful for a Guardian in solo situations since the duration is relatively low. The trade-off from 5 in virtues/honor isn’t really worth the extra damage if you’re not surviving long enough to utilize it.
I think cleansing fire should also affect the Guardian, but should be put on a longer cd so it doesn’t become too strong.
I’ve found that with the recent buffs to meditations and MF, it has become increasingly viable in pvp(haven’t tested in tpvp). The extra healing given is pretty significant. MI went from being useless to being more useful than JI(depending on the situation) for escaping/heals. I’d venture to say if this was tested extensively, it could work.
The new symbol sizes are incredible. I don’t think it’s even necessary to take Writ of exaltation.
Awesome, well done!
The risk vs. reward philosophy should be adjust accordingly. Something as simple as rewarding someone landing an obviously telegraphed skill instead of the instant cast abilities currently present. There’s a plethora of ideas that should be, at the very least, explored(maybe on a test server?). Comboing skills should also be rewarded for competent play. As it stands, AoE condi application with instant maneuverability should also be adjusted. I believe this has been beaten into the ground but I thought i’d give my 2cents.
My solutions(tweaks) will be on the bottom.
I was just going to reiterate what CntrlAltDefeat.1465 posted on the first page about Guardians. The profession is pigeonholed into a specific playstyle(standing on a point to be effective). This, to me is counterintuitive to the combat systems design of constantly moving. Symbols are completely against this since it not only requires you to stand in it but also your opponent for full effect.
Another issue(or not) that I find with this profession is when compared to others, the Guardian has very little automation attached to it. What I mean by this is there are terrible traits given to this profession assist it automatically under certain circumstances. A good example would be there Engineers Protection Injection, 3 seconds of protection(5s ICD) when you get cced. This to me, is a solid trait to help against being bursted when you need it most. Guardians don’t have anything like this to help.
Ranged weaponry: Even with the recent buff to scepters AA speed, it is still easily avoidable through side-strafing. I know this skill hits particularly hard but if it almost never hits, what’s the point? Staff seems to suffer from another problem which is if your target is above(or below) you, it will not hit.
Animations: This profession has the most obvious of animations when it comes to their skills. Warrior comes to a close second in this regard. Not much else to say in this topic.
Mobility: Once again, this profession lacks any real mobility to it(unless you’re using staff).
Conditions: Lack of any real condition application, burning is the only real condition a guardian can really utilize and that’s easily cleansed through the very little variety of conditions that can be applied with it.
I’m sure there’s more that i’m missing but this seems to be what comes to mind at the moment. I’m trying not to sound biased towards my own profession but these are the issues that I see.
Solutions:
1.(Static skills): I honestly believe symbols should either be replaced with auras that follow you, or the damage frontloaded. As it stands, the benefits from these skills are very minimal and the AoE is too small.
2.(Automation): Other than retaliation, I think there should be a variety of more trait choices given to allow for more automation or maybe less for other professions. I think it promotes little skill to allow for such traits to exist. Either allow everyone to have something similar, or get rid of it.
3.(Ranged weaponry): Either speed up the scepter again(reduce the damage to compensate) or give a new weapon for ranged combat. I think most would agree a Longbow would be fitting for the Guardian.
4.(Animations): This has been discussed about other professions and I believe instant skills should have a dramatic reduction in damage/effectiveness. If it’s significantly more obvious for me to hit you with a skill, it should also do significantly more damage if it hits.
5.(Mobility): I believe putting in another virtue for running speed would help resolve this issue. Either that or more options for swiftness outside of staff. As it stands, being kited can be a bit of a pain.
6.(Condition application): Allow for a more variety of conditions. As it stands, no guardian will spec into conditions since there isn’t any to strengthen. If this profession was meant not to be a “condition” class, I think strengthening direct damage instead of having a 90/10 split would be better for it.
I’m sure that every profession has their own problems that those who’ve played them for a significant amount of time can put forth. These are what I see to be an issue. There’s a few more but again, this is what comes to mind right away.
(edited by Arken.3725)
I am the same with Krytan(174/175) and Maguuma being 165/167. It’s driving me insane. I 100% the whole world and I can’t find these areas. And of course, Shiverpeaks is 170/175. Ouch.
(edited by Arken.3725)
You need to YouTube that one. ;-)
If anyone else think there’s a better way to utilize this system please don’t hesitate. I believe the current wardrobe system is flawed as such.
If true, that’s unfortunate. Physical damage is this professions speciality with burning as a tiny increase.
But it’s rather true. The effectiveness of say Supply outweighs any other elite the Engineer uses, same with the Elementalists….elemental. I completely agree with you that you should have to interact with the game world utilizing your skills, all i’m saying is that when a skill is just as powerful if not more while having you do absolutely nothing but initiating the skill, there’s an issue.
One of the biggest issues for me(I play spvp mostly) is the fact that you need to use SYG in combination with the tomes or you’ll never get the #5 off either tome.
I know this is bit of a stretch but why not turn these into auras of some kind? I’ve always believed(and still do) that symbols promote static gameplay which is against this games design. Why not revamp these skills into auras?
I’d love a skill like the banner on my Guardian. The only Elite that I find remotely useful is Renewed Focus. And even then, it’s mediocre at best(imo). The big reason i’ll never use the tomes is because like most other elites, these require use by the player. Other elites(standard, supply, time warp ect.) require no action on the player besides the initiation. This is the main reason why those will be superior to the tomes.
I completely agree, as a “boon-powered” profession, the specialization into virtues leaves you very weak in terms of damage. It’s decent for support but the uptime on your boons, even with the duration increase is still relatively short.
Even from a support standpoint, the Virtues tree for me, isn’t exactly worth it. I’d rather be able to put out decent dmg and support(honor +5 into virtues) than going full virtues and just being a damage sponge with absolutely no threat attached. I don’t like the idea of how virtues work as it is, it’s boring and when you’re having to deal with both sides of this spectrum(active/passive) it starts to become less fun and effective.
I think it’s about making the Guardian more self-sufficient. I don’t think anyone here can argue that this professions is one of the least mobile classes in this game with a focus on remaining in one spot(symbols). I agree that this patch gave Guardians buffs and zero nerfs, I just don’t think they addressed the issues at hand.
You’re assuming that you’ll constantly hit 5 people for the full duration which against any skilled player(s) will never happen.
Okay, I have a question. Why does the entire symbol need to hit all possible targets for all possible ticks, or else it’s worthless?
Applying this same logic to, say, Whirling Wrath…how many times does it hit 5 opponents all 9 hits. Is it worthless? Do you ever use it when the situation isn’t going to be 100% optimal?
You should be using it in optimal conditions if possible or else you’re a sitting duck that can move only a few feet. We’re talking about a tiny bit of healing given by a trait that’s only optimal use would be to constantly hit multiple targets. I’m not saying that you’re always going to be using all your skills in the best possible situation, all i’m stating is to benefit from a specific trait that provides such a low heal base that you’ll need as many hits as possible or it’s a waste.
I’m not saying let it home in on players, maybe speed it up a little more instead.
The vast majority of ranged abilities are still faster than the orb even with this buff. I’m still getting instances of orbs going wide right or left on targets.
The fact that it can still be strafe-dodged speaks volumes on why this skill is still busted. A 30% increase from a snails pace is still incredibly slow.
Obtena has a point. I’ve been testing these changes and even the orb or wrath is still broken.
Wouldn’t it be worse in WvW? You’d be fighting more players in melee range and 1k healing over the course of a few seconds isn’t going to save you.
Except it wouldn’t because it would require you to be at the forefront of every fight taking damage from all sides since you can’t fight at ranged.
You’re assuming that you’ll constantly hit 5 people for the full duration which against any skilled player(s) will never happen.
While that’s true, it doesn’t make the concept of symbols ok. This further proves that the skill itself is terrible(symbols).
I get that foofad, but the problem still stands that it doesn’t stack with healing power. 25 a hit is WAY too low to justify 20 points into zeal when it can be spend elsewhere.