Guild Wars 2

Congrats to The Abjured. As much as I despise the current meta, you got the W and i’m happy for you all. Well done.

A lot of these aren’t bad at all.

But instead of the activation time of marks for necromancer, why not make a more pronounced animation/notification to see which one is being cast on you? Aside from fear mark, you honestly don’t know.

Definitely agree with the change to IP, this has been beaten to death.

Lopez.7369:

Exile.8160:

IMO Guards don’t need a buff, It’s their weapons that needs some love.

That… would be a buff.

Yeah….no. There needs to be a lot more than that just. I already listed quite a few issue’s with the dps-guardian in the Guardian thread along with all of the traits I find to be completely useless.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Arken.3725:

I slightly disagree. At the games release we had the Power-meta which to me, was the best meta due to proper risk/reward.

Back when Mug critted for 6k, azn signet was a one-skill 150% dmg hit, pets casually critted for 8k…

You sure you don’t have rose-tinted glasses Arken?

That was indeed the case but it’s still far superior to the boring sustained-condition meta we’ve been dealing with over a year now. Those only really needed a nerf to their dmg not an introduction to what we have now.

I’ll compound on the issue’s I see:

-Worst ranged weaponry of all the professions(very easy to strafe-dodge the orbs)

-Least amount of significant passive’s compared to other professions(virute’s are incredibly weak passively)

-No controlling conditions

-Very limited mobility

-Condition builds are limited

-List of useless traits(my opinion):

Minors: All of zeal, first 2 in radiance, first 2 in valor, 2nd in honor(unless you have a ton of HP), 3rd in virtues.

Majors: Zeal-(I, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, X, XI, XII) Radiance(I, II, III, V, VIII, IX, XII, XIII) Valor(III, VIII, XIII) Honor(I, III, IV,VII, VIII, X, XII, XIII) Virtues(I, III, IV, V, VIII, XI, XII, XIII)

That is a little over half in terms of majors and minors. Again, my opinion.

I’ve never found any of these traits to be of use, especially the symbol-related ones. Due to them relying on Rallying/defeating, static in nature(symbols), AI or just scale terribly with their respective slots.

Honestly, I just want some fun/strong traits instead of the boring ones we have now.

I can see that being a short-term solution Arthur and I’ve suggested that quite a few posts back. I just don’t think across-the-board nerfs are healthy.

Sunshine.5014:

I agree that the combat of gw2 is amazing, easily the best I have played, and I played a lot of games. It was sluggish for 2 years because they refuse to balance it right, with the 6-months per balance patch approach. That resulted in a lot of people left the game.

The current meta, although imperfect, is indeed the best meta we have for gw2. I hope they can keep releasing patches every two months, and listen to feedback from the community.

I slightly disagree. At the games release we had the Power-meta which to me, was the best meta due to proper risk/reward. Now everyone run’s sustainable “safe” builds.

Edit: amazing combat system though

ResJudicator.7916:

I’m wondering if it would be more productive to think about how one might buff scepter or DPS ele while nerfing D/D celestial/bunker ele. That way you have to think about how your suggestions affect the class as a whole.

Most people here seem to agree that DD celestial/bunker ele needs some shaving, the only real debate is over how to accomplish this without gimping the class as a whole.

That’s what I was hoping to get at. I really don’t want to nerf the Elementalist into oblivion. I was merely suggesting some changes. I was looking at the ease of access to high-quality boons and was suggesting a reduction.

Edit: Just to further reiterate on my point, seeing as we’ve been in the condi-sustain meta for over a year, the defense behind professions with lower initial armor-value is much less of an excuse compared to the power-meta at the games release.

Bunker Guard does not have 3300 armor, no idea where you got that from. You can’t absolutely not get 67% uptime on protection reliably. First of all, hammer hasn’t been a Bunker Guardian staple since Stunbreaks got a buff. You’re making up numbers with absolutely no basis behind it.

Assuming you run every skill that gives protection(which you won’t as a bunker). You’re looking at less than average access to both Protection as well as Regeneration.

Elementalist’s will, at the very least, maintain protection, regen, swiftness and vigor up at least 65% of the time. Not to mention the added mitigation from frost aura, evade frames from Burning Speed.

It also amazes me that you add aegis and blocks into the equation when you only get one aegis and 2 seconds worth of blocking on relatively long cd’s. And last but not least, the complete passive nature of Signet of Restoration completely overshadows any healing skill the Guardian has access to.

Edit: A standard bunker Guardian build has 15,655k hp, 2943 armor. The utilities include SYG, HTL and Sanctuary. Please tell me where you see the MASSIVE access to boons.

Edit 2: If you want to go even deeper, the EU meta Bunker build has 3143 armor, 15,600 health with FAR less boon uptime.

By high access to blocks I think you’re looking at other professions instead of the Guardian. Having an Aegis and 2 second block on a 30 second cd doesn’t classify as “high access” to me. It’s not just CC but a plethora of things overall that put them over-the-top. It’s a combination of sustain/mobility/cc. I completely agree with shaving as a start.

Also, a Class that devotes all of it’s traits should indeed be defensive but not also bring mobility and CC. Again, we go back to Guardian as a prime example(I say prime since I consider it to be balanced).

Sigh, why do people KEEP suggesting a nerf across the board instead of specific professions? It’s pretty clear that Elementalist’s are overtuned and yet the responses i’m seeing are, “naaa nerf sigils and stuff.”

Lower based toughness which again, is easily exceeded with the access to protection/auras. And a Guardian will drop faster then an Elementalist. Guardian bunkers aren’t taken for their inherent tankiness. I can name at least 3 professions that would last longer on a point in comparison. It’s the overall team-support is why Guardian’s used to be such a necessity.

Edit: In response to losing a point, my point still stands that you’ll still last longer.

Edit2: In terms of equality of poison, i’d still say the Elementalist is still slightly ahead due to the sheer amount of removal. But I will concede that HoT is affected more by it in the long-term while Burst healing is quite the opposite.

I did propose a change to the duration of EA above(3 seconds). I’m sticking with my argument against ES.

I also named many more changes then just the 3 you mentioned. I’d love to hear reasons against them.

I disagree Resjudicator, its primary tankiness comes not only from healing but having an insane amount of access to defensive boons and CC. Poison and focus fire effect everyone so I don’t think it’s a good argument against 1 specific profession. Specifying kiting for the Guardian profession is laughable, that’s never ever been the case for any spec a Guardian has run. The same could be said about mist-form for Elementalist’s in terms of even more dmg mitigation through a guaranteed invul.

Edit: To Chaith above, you actually never gave me a negative reaction to all of the changes proposed my friend. I concede to the argument against Cleansing Water.

I can sort of see your point on Cleansing water, fair enough.

Low-base stats aren’t a good reason for having at least 65% access to 4 boons. It needs a small reduction. I’d say maybe 3 seconds instead of 5. And if it were the case that it’s absolutely a necessity, it would be baked into the profession I believe. This is also adding on top of the access to auras as well as a decent amount of soft/hard cc.

coglin.1867:

Arken.3725:

Then explain to me why they’re so heavy-handed? I haven’t seen any examples from anybody aside from analogies. I don’t mind shaving so that’s where I can agree with you Chaith.

It is unreasonably heavy handed, because you are proposing nerfing might for everyone, as a solution for elementalist. In my opinion, nerfing a boon as a whole based on a single profession is extremely unreasonable on premise alone.

Secondly you making the same suggestion for an entire amulet. I am surprised that someone really needed to explain that suggesting, a massive value change in a boon as a whole for everyone, as well as a amulet changed, both all as a solution for a single problematic build on a single profession, is heavy handed.

Where did I state nerfing might for everyone? I think you might be talking about someone else. Please quote my post so I can better understand. Also, I never suggested to nerf the amulet but rather looking at the professions using them.

That’s completely understandable. If you remember Elementalist’s at release, they were unkillable but didn’t nearly as much offensive pressure as they do now. And the example of being susceptible to focus-fire doesn’t just apply to Elementalist’s but rather every single profession. I believe it’s even less effective against the current state of Elementalist’s due to their high health/armor and overall dmg mitigation.

If you read the example I gave above about Bunker Guardian’s then it’s much easier to see why even if you took away their dmg overall, it still might be a bit too strong defensively.

Chaith.8256:

Arken.3725:

And just to further reiterate on the whole “boon hate” discussion. S/D thief/Necromancer are the only professions with access to useful skills/traits. Again, looking at a single profession to balance is probably easier than looking at everyone else trying to find a way to fight it.

It’s because your nerf proposals are often too heavy handed, AKA, you’re going into the ring after dipping your handwraps in adhesive, followed by broken glass shards.

Again, I’m advocating we do a combination of the first 6 shaves as proposed by Phanta, and then seeing where things stand.

Then explain to me why they’re so heavy-handed? I haven’t seen any examples from anybody aside from analogies. I don’t mind shaving so that’s where I can agree with you Chaith.

Edit: I’ve given examples and reasons behind these changes. I would hope that someone who’s advocating for/against them would do the same.

I don’t think anyone wants to murder the profession but rather find the “sweet spot” so to speak. Even if there was limited access to burning/might stacks, it still has a bit too much for my taste. As an example when I play Bunker Guard, I don’t have soft cc, mobility, constant access to boons as well as excellent dmg mitigation. It’s all team-support. That to me, is balanced because you are literally offering everything for your team while keeping only a bit for yourself.

And if we’re talking Bruiser builds, it should by no means be the MOST survivable spec. Just my 2 cents.

And just to further reiterate on the whole “boon hate” discussion. S/D thief/Necromancer are the only professions with access to useful skills/traits. Again, looking at a single profession to balance is probably easier than looking at everyone else trying to find a way to fight it.

Edit: I’m trying to find a good balance for some of the professions of topic lately and EVERY single user of those professions seems to be against any sort of adjustment. It’s amazing really but not unexpected. Even as a Guardian i’m a little biased towards it but i’d be more than willing to admit when something is broken/too strong.

And for those looking to nerf these professions, give reasons why and maybe some alternatives instead of just, “NERF LAWLZ.”

Chaith.8256:

Arken.3725:

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

i feel like the answer here is to give us really good counters to boon spam that otherwise arent that great. not necessarily just nerf the offending boon build. for example

This actually makes a lot of sense. However, giving everyone boon-hate is a much more daunting task than just working with the boons themselves.

Eh? No way. Slipping in a little ‘…and removes a boon’ to a PvP centric tooltip is much less difficult a task than changing how good boons are and expecting game balance to be good.

Eh? This has already been tried by a few traits given by a few professions and look how it turned out. It’s incredibly underwhelming. I’ve already given my opinion a few posts above to lower the amount of boon-access to a more acceptable level. Potentially 65% or more uptime on at least 4 boons is too much.

Harbinger.8637:

Don’t mean to derail the topic, but since we are talking about Guard changes overall, I found this to be quite interesting. It’s a list of all the older traits that got removed. Some of them are quite good. I’ll list a couple that caught my eye, but you can look at the full list if you want. Interesting stuff.

Altruism- Virtues recharge faster.

Practiced Resistance- Conditions expire more quickly on you.

Defender’s Warding- Shield of Wrath absorbs more damage.

Burned by Truth- Applies burning on critical hits.

Staggering Judgment- Shield of Judgment knocks back.

Steel Curtain- Your Line of Warding blocks projectiles.

Precise Defender- You have a 10% chance to gain a 3 second protection when you critically hit.

Courageous Speed- Critical attacks with your sword grant you Swiftness.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_historical_traits

I like some of these changes, would you mind taking a look at the proposed changes I linked above?

I’m not a huge fan of the AI changes only because they’re so weak in general that you’d probably have to give it some overpowering traits/skills to even consider using them.

Also, the protection gained from Precise defender is a bit low. It’s funny because Guardian’s have very limited access to protection outside of Shout builds. This seems decent. Maybe up to 30%?

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

i feel like the answer here is to give us really good counters to boon spam that otherwise arent that great. not necessarily just nerf the offending boon build. for example

This actually makes a lot of sense. However, giving everyone boon-hate is a much more daunting task than just working with the boons themselves.

Concept has the right idea but without any real suggestions. My 2 cents:

Skills

Lightning Whip: Obviously fix the stow issue.

Drakes breath: Cut the burning in half. It’s already on a very low cd with decent aoe application.

Chill Aura: Reduce the duration from 7 to 5 seconds. No profession should have a plethora of soft/hard cc.

Magnetic grasp: Increase the cd to 20 seconds.

Traits

Elemental Shielding: Gonna get some hate from this but this is way too good for an adept. Either reduce the duration or move it up to a master.

Cleansing water: With the sheer access to regeneration, i’d say this needs a slight change. Put a small ICD on it for each other person you apply regeneration to. Example: You apply regen to yourself, you remove a condition but it cannot be done for another 5 seconds. You can however remove a condi from someone else within that time-frame.

Elemental Attunement: This is a weird one because it goes from making the Elementalist’s attunement swap from being completely useless, to having the highest access of very strong boons. Not exactly sure what to do with this but maybe lowering the duration?

I know it looks like a pretty significant amount of nerfs but anyone profession should never be able to do nearly everything with great execution. There needs to be give somewhere, Risk/Reward so to speak. I’d rather not see the Elementalist fall out of the meta like it did previously but something needs to be done.

Black Box.9312:

Harbinger.8637:

It seems like the never really listen to the community for the most part. There has always been great feedback in this section, however Anet always does some weird changes. For example, making Renewed Focus a Meditation. I don’t think I ever heard anyone ask for that, I’m not going to complain about a buff, but it really doesn’t fix the issues med guard has. It took them two years to finally reduce the CD on Retreat, and that has been something that’s been asked since release.

Yeah, that’s kind of how I felt about the RF change. I mean, it’s awesome, but it didn’t really fix any of the glaring issues that the class still DOES face.

I’d honestly put RF as a less than average elite that’s only really useful when specced into. Quite a few elites out there that require no investment to put out their full potential. Also, I don’t understand why RF is considered a meditation. Doesn’t make much sense to me.

It’s more than just celestial. The offerings of amulets to allow for sustain-condi play have been relevant for a very long time now. Nearly everyone wants “safe” builds to compliment their play style. Celestial is indeed a problem along with might-stacking but again, only 2-3 classes abuse this so why nerf that and not the individual professions themselves?

Common sense dictates that a proper risk/reward style must be put in place and a lot of that is ignored due to either amulets, traits or skills. Going full defense/support while still putting out significant pressure makes little-to-no sense to me. There needs to be give.

As a Guardian i’m all for being replaced by another bunker but not the way it’s being currently done. Instead of having one profession supporting others while having not much for themselves, you have self-sustaining specs that also put out decent support and excellent pressure.

A short term fix: Remove celestial until you can balance the professions themselves and reintroduce it at a later date. No one likes bursting a target only to have it almost completely negated by targets high mitigation uptime and recovery. And lets not bring in the whole “well one class completely counters this spec” argument.

Except those static abilities are not strong for you nor are they a detriment to your opponent. The idea behind static abilities should be that due to its immobile nature, it should be strong in both areas that are beneficial/detriment.

Guardians static abilities(mostly symbols) do not produce this.

I think it’s the professions themselves, not the runes/sigils that’s being claimed. You nerf those items you unnecessarily nerf those who don’t abuse it as much.

Shanks.2907:

Arken.3725:

Almost feels like we go over the issue’s with weapon sets every month. I’d like to keep going over them to find everyone’s opinions on the matter.

I agree, but it just becomes repetitive to most without the involvement of the devs. There’s been a lot of good ideas put out by the guardian community, but I’m sure people get tired of saying the same things in different threads.

Awareness of these issues is key, without these threads and discussions nothing will be done. The community is as much at fault for “guardians are in a good place” when things that needed to be done could have been. “The squeaky wheel gets the grease”, or so I’ve heard. It seems how buffs and nerfs are decided around here.

I think we’re all tired of the whole “guardians are in a good place” constantly being thrown around. I will say that the Guardian does feel like the most balanced profession probably due to the fact that it has the least amount of strong passives associated to the class.

All of the virtue’s passives, in my opinion are incredibly weak. This is especially true for Resolve and Courage. I honestly believe if you took away the passive’s themselves, you probably wouldn’t notice it. Outside of that, you have Vigorous Precision which got a pretty significant nerf months back(which only really works with offensive builds).

Bran.7425:

Arken.3725:

Almost feels like we go over the issue’s with weapon sets every month. I’d like to keep going over them to find everyone’s opinions on the matter. Here’s a copy/paste of the post I made a while ago with every weapon kit and the changes i’d like to see. What do you guys think?

Hammer: Too slow for the damage output it produces. Now I understand that this is supposed to be a CC-related weapon but it’s too slow even for that. I keep looking at the Warrior hammer and picture how awesome it is to fight with that. Not to mention traits that have a significant synergistic behavior with said weapon.

Sword: This one is minor but Zealot’s defense is very static and Counterintuitive to the games design(constant movement). Not to mention the blades barely hit a moving target. Also one change i’d like to see is the #3 on its AA. Its cleave is well below average. Why can’t this just be a single-hit like Axe on Warrior. That thing hits like a truck and even hits behind the player using it.

Scepter: Only thing this needs is tracking improvements. I’m still seeing it easily avoidable with strafe-dodging. Rifle on Engineer and Longbow on Warrior/Ranger hit just as hard if not harder and rarely miss.

Great sword: This is actually has a pretty decent kit outside of 2 skills. I’m looking at Symbol of Wrath and Binding blade. One offers static game-play and outside of PvE, is near-useless. Binding blade isn’t terrible except for the cool down is a bit long and the leash is a tiny bit too small. Not to mention it can be completely negated by dodging just as you pull someone. Last but not least, i’d like to see WW have its projectiles removed and just increase the base damage, those things are completely random and contribute very little.

Mace: The Auto-attack needs a change, even with more than 1000 HP, the heal from the third strike is insignificant. Make this more selfish or something to be of actual use. Symbol of Faith, once again, offers static play and outside of PvE, is near useless.

Torch: Cleansing flame not affecting the Guardian? Now this might be too strong if it did but you could just increase the cd to make up for that.(20 seconds)

Focus: I’d like to see Ray of Judgement’s projectile be faster. Maybe drop Shield of Wrath’s cd a bit(35 seconds)

Just want to point out that most of the design/balance for the weapons are for spvp which currently is conquest and has very static elements. So the whole node thing is probably the reason for symbols existing at all.

That makes sense just the issue there is that there isn’t any significant benefit/detriment when being affected by symbols to be used in play.

Almost feels like we go over the issue’s with weapon sets every month. I’d like to keep going over them to find everyone’s opinions on the matter. Here’s a copy/paste of the post I made a while ago with every weapon kit and the changes i’d like to see. What do you guys think?

Hammer: Too slow for the damage output it produces. Now I understand that this is supposed to be a CC-related weapon but it’s too slow even for that. I keep looking at the Warrior hammer and picture how awesome it is to fight with that. Not to mention traits that have a significant synergistic behavior with said weapon.

Sword: This one is minor but Zealot’s defense is very static and Counterintuitive to the games design(constant movement). Not to mention the blades barely hit a moving target. Also one change i’d like to see is the #3 on its AA. Its cleave is well below average. Why can’t this just be a single-hit like Axe on Warrior. That thing hits like a truck and even hits behind the player using it.

Scepter: Only thing this needs is tracking improvements. I’m still seeing it easily avoidable with strafe-dodging. Rifle on Engineer and Longbow on Warrior/Ranger hit just as hard if not harder and rarely miss.

Great sword: This is actually has a pretty decent kit outside of 2 skills. I’m looking at Symbol of Wrath and Binding blade. One offers static game-play and outside of PvE, is near-useless. Binding blade isn’t terrible except for the cool down is a bit long and the leash is a tiny bit too small. Not to mention it can be completely negated by dodging just as you pull someone. Last but not least, i’d like to see WW have its projectiles removed and just increase the base damage, those things are completely random and contribute very little.

Mace: The Auto-attack needs a change, even with more than 1000 HP, the heal from the third strike is insignificant. Make this more selfish or something to be of actual use. Symbol of Faith, once again, offers static play and outside of PvE, is near useless.

Torch: Cleansing flame not affecting the Guardian? Now this might be too strong if it did but you could just increase the cd to make up for that.(20 seconds)

Focus: I’d like to see Ray of Judgement’s projectile be faster. Maybe drop Shield of Wrath’s cd a bit(35 seconds)

Saiyan.1704:

Arken.3725:

Saiyan.1704:

My main issue with sword is the #2 skill hit not being instant. When entering battle with flashing blade, you have to wait a second for a strike Then switch to trigger in battle state. Certain sigils will not proc otherwise and it’s a Huge pain.
I think the scepter, which mainly does single target damage, should do more DPS than any 1 hand weapon. The sword was always meant to be a hybrid, single target dps or group fight weapon.

Funny thing you mention that. I looked at other ranged weapons from other professions and the rifle from Engineer, long bow from Warrior and Ranger hits as hard if not harder and pretty much never misses. Funny that.

Yea it’s not nice. Scepter auto being already slow and easy to dodge, should get a damage buff imo. I’m thinking 100 more damage on top of it’s base. That’ll be an additional 250’sh damage on crits (I think, I’m terrible at theory crafting)

The thing is that won’t really help. I’d rather it actually hit than get a damage buff.

Saiyan.1704:

My main issue with sword is the #2 skill hit not being instant. When entering battle with flashing blade, you have to wait a second for a strike Then switch to trigger in battle state. Certain sigils will not proc otherwise and it’s a Huge pain.
I think the scepter, which mainly does single target damage, should do more DPS than any 1 hand weapon. The sword was always meant to be a hybrid, single target dps or group fight weapon.

Funny thing you mention that. I looked at other ranged weapons from other professions and the rifle from Engineer, long bow from Warrior and Ranger hits as hard if not harder and pretty much never misses. Funny that.

Amins.3710:

Said it numerous times since Beta:

1) Sword #1, second strike needs to cripple. This would alleviate alot of the misses on third strile.
2) Zealots Defense need to work on the move.
3) Zealots Defense is now Projectile
4) Zealots Defense now blocks for 2 seconds instead of 3.

5) Powerful Blades Trait in Radianceneeds to be changed as follows: +5% Damage and Projectiles now Pierce

1: That would be interesting, still not a fan of the third hit being a projectile. Maybe change both?

2: Not bad. Now in conjunction with 4, is it blocks all attacks or just ranged?

Completely agree with the explanation on Sword’s AA. I’d like to add another issue I have with Zealot’s defense. As the slowest profession, why would you want a skill that plants you in place? Seems pretty counter intuitive. When you’re utilizing sword, you’re trying to keep on your target. It just seems backwards to me.

Edit: I just wanted to link a post I made a little while ago about the Guardian weapons as a whole and what I feel needs to be adjusted. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Changes-in-the-Sept-2014-Feature-Pack/4307390. I could be completely wrong in my assessment but small tweaks would be nice.

Just going to chime in. Being weak to condi-burst isn’t a good argument to a professions weakness. Also going back to my point in another thread where condi cleanse can be achieved except most engineer’s choose not to run it. I’ve been saying it constantly and this is why we have Ele’s where they are today, you should never have the best of both worlds.

BlackBeard.2873:

Arken.3725:

That would be pretty op Blackbeard. Again, look at Virtue of Justice which requires kittens to pull off 1 second of burning. I think a visual cue is all we need.

The numbers were just examples. Personally, I’d rather an engie be FORCED to use his auto-attack to get that damage rather than get it on a random proc off a random ability. You could even make the duration <1s (before condition duration) so the engie needs to stack up some duration and hit a few autos (untraited) to get the extra damage. The basic premise was: improve the autos to make IP less required, nerf IP.

You have to be smart about it so that the current meta build doesn’t get a net buff (I.E. they still want to take the trait), but every engie build from now to forever doesn’t start with “lets put 20 points in explosives for IP, and….”

Ah, my apologies. I’d rather see a lot less of this sustained/condi meta more than ever and having a way to counter with proper position/movement is for the better. A little off-topic: The further away from this condi-meta we get, the better.

I’d imagine that being taken down by a single crit-proc with 1-2 buried condi’s is a bit infuriating especially on the opposite side of the token for burst to apply similar pressure, it needs to be constantly applying damage. Granted everyone should have condi-cleanses but that isn’t the point here. Avoiding strong physical telegraphs is very rewarding, the same should be applied to condition output.

That would be pretty op Blackbeard. Again, look at Virtue of Justice which requires kittens to pull off 1 second of burning. I think a visual cue is all we need.

Edit: Just to further iterate on the need for adjustments, just because something gets nerfed/buff doesn’t mean you should compensate elsewhere. Sometimes things just need to change by themselves.

That’s a very good point Chaith, i’m all for allowing some skills to pull off said procs instead of just AA’s. That’s a solid suggestion my friend. Well again, having some sort of visual notification that some “big hit” is coming would most certainly make it quit a bit more challenging(barring AA’s of course).

Except we’re talking about a profession with such an ease of burying said burning. The example of both Guardian/Elementalist isn’t as prevalent as Engineer due to the lack of variety thus making it harder for it to stick.

People shouldn’t accept the fact that passive’s are here to stay. Applying burning with off-hand pistol is a MUCH more skillful way to apply burning instead of a random crit-proc. Bringing up the point about other random proc’s isn’t an argument as to why IP should stay the way it is but rather how others should change as well.

Edit: I’m talking about all strong procs, I think a rework would be nice.

Aberrant.6749:

Arken.3725:

-So in addition to IP, you further solidify my argument.

-Agreed, can’t disagree with the upper-middle tier.

-From personal experience fighting engies, this always happens.

-Every profession is weak to CC that doesn’t have stun-breaks. This isn’t exclusive to the Engineer. If you don’t take stunbreaks, then re-evaluating your build might be best.

-You’ve yet to explain why Gearshield is fine other than a false comparison?

-Look at other forms of AA that applies condi’s, the dmg is rubbish for the return on condition dmg. It makes zero sense to give both physical/condition on an auto that’s strong on both ends.

The hate for IP is because it’s a random crit proc that has very little to no thought-process involved. Giving it some sort of visual that it’s about to happen gives other plays the opportunity to react.

- Eng has a lot of cond pressure it can apply, but it’s balanced. It gets that pressure because of tradeoffs.

-No, you’re not always able to pick up the healing turret. There are also times when you want to pop it on purpose for AOE healing for team mates or for other blast finisher reasons.

-Other professions get things like better access to stability (which eng lacks in general). Eng does have stunbreaks, but few are worth taking due to how the class is set up (utility slots are at even more of a premium) and no stability skill worth taking unless you’re playing some HgH build where you take B (but those builds are pretty bad). It’s not about re-evaluating the build, it’s just how much do you need to give up in order to get these things on the individual classes.

-gear shield is fine on eng because of the lack of stability/stunbreaks in general (same as above). It’s a channeled defense so unlike other classes the eng isn’t hurting you while doing defensive actions… compare that to something like mes who can evade while attacking, guard can pop blocks and still attack, war can pop immunities and still attack (etc.). This isn’t a complaint like zomg why can’t my eng do _ like my _______. It’s just saying it’s all fine because it’s balanced for the specific class.

- since you mentioned physical + cond dmg I presume you’re talking about the celestial eng build and rifle. That’s not the fault of IP, but rather the fault of celest + might. I agree that celest+might needs tweaking; without that celest+might IP + rifle is totally fine (and by fine I mean why would you ever even?). If you just nerf IP you also nerf pistol/shield builds which absolutely needs IP.

As far as auto attack comparisons… there is a wiki for that Feel free to go look at the damage for pistol auto + IP vs. the auto attacks of other classes.

There are plenty of no telegraph procs in this game which can have a larger impact than IP. If you get hit with IP, you can still cleanse off the burning. Randomly losing control of your character due to a fear proc is far worse. IP just gives eng a base cond pressure line.

-What are the trade-offs? You’ve yet to provide any concrete information aside from “it just does.”

-We’re talking stunbreaks, not stability here. Of course other professions have better access to it but that’s not the point here. a 3 second invul on a relatively decent cd is a great stunbreak

-Engineer doesn’t lack stunbreaks, you choose not to run it as said engineer. And making the excuse upon blocks makes no sense when said blocks are mostly one at a time instead of a duration block(ergo, gearshield).

-I was talking about your argument over pistol’s abysmal dmg output and so it needs IP. Again, this applies bleeding so it shouldn’t be able to apply impressive physical dmg as well.

-I don’t need to look at the wiki, my argument was that it still deals condition dmg and a small bit of physical which helps to bury said IP.

Edit: If you’re arguing to keep a completely passive skill that allows the enemy no countermeasure outside of a cleanse, then I have nothing else.

Aberrant.6749:

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

IP trait that applies burning could be changed, just like Dhuumfire was. Sigils such as Battle,Fire,Air, and other things can be shed down or have their mechanics changed.

Not without large changes to the other eng skills to balance it since IP is there to make up for the rubbish aa damage. Dhummfire later added an additional condition to necro, it’s not at all like IP being on eng (which has already been nerfed several times btw). Dhummfire on necro was more akin to eng getting access several stacks of torment (which would be nuts).

In addition to that you want to change air/fire sigils… I guess you like bunker metas?

Arken.3725:

Not as bad as Elementalists but still rather strong.

-Entire dps is based upon a critical hit proc.
-Mobility is very strong
-I believe ever since the healing signet nerf, Healing Turret is now the heal per sec skill in the game
-Excellent damage mitigation vs. Burst
-Weak against condi-burst

Again, they’re not nearly as insane as Elementalists but a few things could be changed such as:

-Make Gear shield a 30 sec cd like the rest of the duration blocks.
-Change IP so that instead of a random proc, every certain amount of crits will then make your weapon/kit glow and the next hit applies burning.(this allows for proper counterplay)
-Increase cast time on Healing Turret.

I don’t think any of these are unreasonable.

Edit: They’re only weak to condi’s because most engineers don’t take condi-removal. You should have to choose and it seems like most don’t. You don’t deserve both physical/condi mitigation(elementalist comes to mind).

-Ignores confusion/bleeds/pois damage. IP is there to make up for the rubbish auto attack damage.
-I would put eng into upper middle as far as mobility. You’re just dealing with perma swift unless they take something like rocketboots (lol)
-Iirc healing turret is only the best if you’re able to pick up the turret which requires you to be near the turret (not always possible to say the least).
-not sure if you’re talking about protection injection, but that requires you to be cc-ed.
-also weak vs CC

-comparing classes individual skills to each other is a huge error. Gear shield is fine as is on eng.
-Again, IP is there to make up for the rubbish AA damage. Many classes can deal more aa damage than an eng with IP.
-two stage heal (drop->overcharge on next tick), increasing cast time not necessary.

I really don’t understand the hate for IP since it also forces the eng to get some pre (takes away from other stats the eng could choose if their aa was stronger instead). I’m not sure if people are just ignorant about why it was put in there in the first place or ???

-So in addition to IP, you further solidify my argument.

-Agreed, can’t disagree with the upper-middle tier.

-From personal experience fighting engies, this always happens.

-Every profession is weak to CC that doesn’t have stun-breaks. This isn’t exclusive to the Engineer. If you don’t take stunbreaks, then re-evaluating your build might be best.

-You’ve yet to explain why Gearshield is fine other than a false comparison?

-Look at other forms of AA that applies condi’s, the dmg is rubbish for the return on condition dmg. It makes zero sense to give both physical/condition on an auto that’s strong on both ends.

The hate for IP is because it’s a random crit proc that has very little to no thought-process involved. Giving it some sort of visual that it’s about to happen gives other plays the opportunity to react.

Not as bad as Elementalists but still rather strong.

-Entire dps is based upon a critical hit proc.
-Mobility is very strong
-I believe ever since the healing signet nerf, Healing Turret is now the heal per sec skill in the game
-Excellent damage mitigation vs. Burst
-Weak against condi-burst

Again, they’re not nearly as insane as Elementalists but a few things could be changed such as:

-Make Gear shield a 30 sec cd like the rest of the duration blocks.
-Change IP so that instead of a random proc, every certain amount of crits will then make your weapon/kit glow and the next hit applies burning.(this allows for proper counterplay)
-Increase cast time on Healing Turret.

I don’t think any of these are unreasonable.

Edit: They’re only weak to condi’s because most engineers don’t take condi-removal. You should have to choose and it seems like most don’t. You don’t deserve both physical/condi mitigation(elementalist comes to mind).

I think a simple change to IP would do wonders. The one thing I enjoy about fighting Engineer’s is that most of their skills(outside of IP) are easily telegraphed and can be avoided as such. Very few changes to bring some traits/skills inline with this would do wonders.

Edit:
-Bomb kit: could use some slight tweaks to allow players to identify which bomb is being utilized instead of it being RIGHT before the explosion.

-Grenade Kit: Maybe changing up the utility based upon ranged? Not exactly a fan of nading within melee-range. Could make it so the grenades are a lot less accurate the closer you throw them?

Tool Kit: Only change here would be maybe to put the gearshield on a longer cd? Bring it up to par with warrior stance.

These are just general design changes which could do wonders.

Also, I still don’t think that Celestial/might runes are the main issue here but rather the professions themselves that could use some tweaking. Only three professions can utilize them efficiently(Warrior, Ele, Engineer). Make tweak the professions themselves before the items?

PvE players aren’t prepared because the mobs never move. When a target is always next to you, you never have to worry about controlling conditions/mobility.

Jerus.4350:

I can’t help but disagree honestly.

I still see our offensive capabilities as pretty decent.

PVE I can use unscathed contender and do pretty great.

PVP I’ve had some pretty good success with meditation builds for damage

So personally I just don’t agree.

Sure I may not be top notch pvp ranking so I get where I may be wrong, but still, it’s pretty great burst damage if you play it right, just kinda long reuse on it if you miss.

Well the situation stands as to why dps guardian isn’t in a strong position.

-Mobility
-Ranged weaponry
-Conditional control

The Guardian lacks all of these, especially when playing dps. The only ranged weapon we have is scepter and its auto literally misses more than 50% of the time. The other two go without saying and it’s the reason as to why it’s in a rough spot.

Edit: To me, common sense would dictate that a class that is lacking in the basic mechanics a melee-focused profession brings to the table would then have to make up for it significantly.

Jerus.4350:

Arken.3725:

It’s a little more than just mobility Jerus. It’s also lacking anyway to control your opponent. If you look at how the Guardian plays you’ll notice that it has the least meaningful passives of any other profession and has a more active role. If you were to take out the Virtue’s passives, i’d probably never notice it since they seem to be so underwhelming.

Balancing a profession that plays a primarily active role needs to be stronger than its passive counterparts. I went off-topic a little bit but I wanted to explain my stance on why the Guardian is considered so balanced.

Back to what Ynna was stating is that designing a class around 1 role is terrible and if that’s here to stay, get rid of all the damaging traits/skills and just have more support ones.

I see what you’re saying, and I agree on some points.

I just have to comment on the last paragraph. Don’t you feel that is a bit extremist? Get rid of everything for personal offense because we’re a support/defensive focused profession? just sounds silly to me.

It is a bit silly but honestly, if that’s what is to be done since we’re locked into this “support only” role then so be it. I’m not a fan of half kitten d effort and it almost feels as if speccing other than support is just that.

It’s a little more than just mobility Jerus. It’s also lacking anyway to control your opponent. If you look at how the Guardian plays you’ll notice that it has the least meaningful passives of any other profession and has a more active role. If you were to take out the Virtue’s passives, i’d probably never notice it since they seem to be so underwhelming.

Balancing a profession that plays a primarily active role needs to be stronger than its passive counterparts. I went off-topic a little bit but I wanted to explain my stance on why the Guardian is considered so balanced.

Back to what Ynna was stating is that designing a class around 1 role is terrible and if that’s here to stay, get rid of all the damaging traits/skills and just have more support ones.

Now another question I have is can anyone here tell me where it says the Guardian is just a Support class? I can’t seem to find it and if that is factually how this class is meant to be, then i’m sorely disappointed.

Obtena.7952:

Shanks.2907:

But that’s not the only role a guardian can play. Meditation guardians play a completely different way than a support guardian. Where sticking to your target to put melee pressure is crucial. You can’t just sit in the middle of a point spamming 1 on staff. Fundamentally they play completely different, and with that they have different needs.

True, but team support is the role the class was designed to play and that’s why it’s such a focus of this discussion. You could decide to play another role but to claim the toolset is lacking because it’s necessary to fill that arbitrary role the class wasn’t designed for doesn’t make sense.

If that’s the case then why do we bother with different specs for this Guardian profession? If that is indeed how this profession was meant to be played, you might as well remove all of the damaging traits and replace them with support for more options.