Guild Wars 2

Black Box.9312:

Arken.3725:

Great Sword: Got a crap ton of nerfs. Not only did the skills get rearranged, but the cool down of each skill increased as well. Symbol went from 10-20 seconds, Leap went from 10 to 15 and Whirling wrath went from 8 to 10 seconds.

That threw me off for at least 2 weeks. I was so mad.

Dude, i’m right there with you. But aside from getting used to the new arrangement, it got a hefty nerf. Again, every profession has received nerfs over the lifetime of this game. I do believe though, Guardian’s have gotten significant nerfs on top of wonky mechanics(scepter auto) and generally weak traits.

silvermember.8941:

Arken.3725:

Just a bit of input: Guardian’s actually have seen significant changes but they happened long ago. Here’s a short list of significant changes.

Tomes: Removed stability

Line of Warding: Got a 37.5% nerf to its duration

Wrathful spirit: Got a 70% nerf to its duration

Vigorous precision: 50% nerf to its potential duration

Shield of Judgement: 40% nerf to its duration

Selfless Daring/SYS: 50% nerf to its effectiveness/duration respectively.

Great Sword: Got a crap ton of nerfs. Not only did the skills get rearranged, but the cool down of each skill increased as well. Symbol went from 10-20 seconds, Leap went from 10 to 15 and Whirling wrath went from 8 to 10 seconds.

My point in all of this is that Guardian’s received significant nerfs. This isn’t even mentioning some of the tracking problems from scepter and other issues.

Not to be that person, but other classes have received just as many nerfs if not more. The guardian for all the complaints by people on the forums, has been consistent. Depending on who you ask that could be a good or bad thing, they has never been a time where guardians have been out of the loop. EVER.

Simply listing nerfs is just a very dishonest because other classes have gotten more nerfs.

Never said every other profession hasn’t received nerfs. The question is the severity/rate at which the nerfs have been received. It’s a little dishonest to not list examples of such to compare while just stating, “everyone has had theirs.”

Just a bit of input: Guardian’s actually have seen significant changes but they happened long ago. Here’s a short list of significant changes.

Tomes: Removed stability

Line of Warding: Got a 37.5% nerf to its duration

Wrathful spirit: Got a 70% nerf to its duration

Vigorous precision: 50% nerf to its potential duration

Shield of Judgement: 40% nerf to its duration

Selfless Daring/SYS: 50% nerf to its effectiveness/duration respectively.

Great Sword: Got a crap ton of nerfs. Not only did the skills get rearranged, but the cool down of each skill increased as well. Symbol went from 10-20 seconds, Leap went from 10 to 15 and Whirling wrath went from 8 to 10 seconds.

My point in all of this is that Guardian’s received significant nerfs. This isn’t even mentioning some of the tracking problems from scepter and other issues.

I say Guardian is about average, maybe a tiny bit less and here’s why:

-Worst ranged weaponry in the game
-Least (meaningful) passive profession
-Lack of significant controlling conditions/speed to keep up with opponents.

There’s more and I love this profession. Just pointing out some serious flaws in its design as a primarily melee-centric profession.

SobeSoul.6910:

mistsim.2748:

Arken.3725:

I’ll contribute from a meditation guardian standpoint. Primarily Hammer/Staff.

this isn’t really a viable competitive option.

Who is Tage?

Still trying to figure out who the best Guardian is NA.

mistsim.2748:

Arken.3725:

I’ll contribute from a meditation guardian standpoint. Primarily Hammer/Staff.

this isn’t really a viable competitive option.

Quite funny.

I’ll contribute from a meditation guardian standpoint. Primarily Hammer/Staff.

Thief:
7:3: It’s been stated many times but as a Guardian against a Thief of equal skill, the Guardian will always win.

D/D Ele:

1:9: If it’s cele, you have literally 0% chance at winning. The sheer amount of sustain in terms of both regeneration/dmg coupled with cc will make it very difficult to fight against.

Engie:

Condi(rabid): 3:7: This is highly dependent if you’re running 4+ into virtues. If so, you stand a pretty good chance at winning. If not, you still have a chance but much less so.

Cele engie: 3:7: This sort of falls into the same category of elementalist except if you can somehow avoid the instant kb, you’re in a pretty good spot. If not, it’ll snowball and pain will ensue.

Mesmer shatter: 8:2: I think this also falls into the same category of thief that if played equally, the Guardian should win. However, if mistakes are made, the burst from Mesmer’s will take their toll pretty quickly.

Ranger:

Condi/tank: 4:6: This is a pretty even match-up but again, if you’re running 4+ into virtues, you’ll be in a pretty decent spot but at the cost of more dmg. If not, you still have a pretty good chance if you properly utilize your dodges/blocks appropriately.

Power:

7:3: As long as you can close the distance and force the signet of stone, they’re paper afterwards.

Necromancer:

Condi 7:3: Also is dependent on sigils or how many in virtue’s you have invested.
Power: 4:6: The sheer amount of damage the necromancer can dish out will put a guardian to its knee’s. Proper LoSing will be key in winning this fight.

Warrior:

Shoutbow: 6:4: With proper positioning and usage of blocks/dodges, you shouldn’t have much of an issue. It will take a long time though.

Hambow: 7:3: It’s all about avoiding the initial Staggering blow or Pin-down.

Keksmuffin.1450:

What’s your problem with glacial heart? It’s really strong, every top guard takes it when they go hammer meditation. The fact that it procs on crit doesn’t make it worse than hydromancy. It makes it better because it will always hit when it procs making it a really reliable source of damage if you have intel sigil.

This trait is by no means incredibly strong. It’s used because other options aren’t as strong. This doesn’t mean Glacial heart is any good, you’re essentially choosing between the best of lesser evils.

I just think as a Master, it should have a little more. Like I said, if you want to keep it only attached to hammer, it needs to be that much stronger due to such a limitation.

Wanted to add another.

Glacial heart: As it is right now it’s slightly weaker than Hydromancy as a master. I say this because the radius is much smaller (180) whereas Hydromancy is 240 as well as only working with hammer. I thought master major’s were supposed to be stronger than sigils.

Here’s a proposed change: Keep it only working on hammer, give a 10% dmg boost to hammer, increase the radius to 240 to match Hydromancy and maybe reduce toe ICD to 10 seconds.

Edit: The biggest drawback to this trait will still be that it ONLY works with Hammer. I think buffing it significantly will sort of even it out.

Would be nice if there was some equal ground for those for and against. Probably a live discussion and explanation as to why you think things should be changed might help appeal to your reasoning. I still stand by my original argument earlier and have stated changes but again, i’m all for a discussion as to why they should or shouldn’t be through investigation and objectivity.

You’re right, there was no class-stacking prior to that patch. It literally only took 1 patch to go from being un-viable to completely dominating the spvp scene. Not to be rude but I’ve seen no “tools” of yours to dismiss any claim I’ve made that HAS been backed up by evidence.

Remember the post where you stated a Bunker Guardian would stay alive longer than a d/d celestial right now and would post video’s to prove it? Where are the videos?

I’m not trying to turn this into a negative discussion but one where FACTS trump subjectivity. There have been numerous posts that post numbers/facts to the situation as to why this profession is incredibly strong but it’s been consistently dismissed.

I think quite a few people are reasonable in their requests, it’s just there are those who do not seem to understand/admit the absurdity of what’s going on. From those doing actual detective work being on the side that says there needs to be nerfed vs. those just posting opinions without anything factual backing it up is what confuses me most.

Heck, if you really wanted to boil it down to a most of basic of levels just look at it this way…..class stacking. In fact, there has been less class diversity in spvp than ever before. It’s been posted time and time again but instead of putting a compelling argument on those who think the class is “in a good spot,” we just get baseless opinions.

coglin.1867:

Arken.3725:

coglin.1867:

Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.

List them then. Doesn’t it get tiring stating something you believe to be fact without listing anything to back it up? The poster above you listed all the skills which count as CC to back up his claims.

Why? are you claiming that comparing skills 1 to 1 in a vacuum is the way to determine balance?

coglin.1867:

Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.

You just stated that a few posts ago. Again, what skills do you speak of.

Edit: Not trying to come off as rude but rather we need facts to back up our arguments, not empty statements.

coglin.1867:

Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.

List them then. Doesn’t it get tiring stating something you believe to be fact without listing anything to back it up? The poster above you listed all the skills which count as CC to back up his claims.

SobeSoul.6910:

Arken.3725:

Absolutely they do. Aside from having an incredibly low cd block, arguably the best healing skill in the game plus a ton of control/mobility, this is completely the case.

You are being disingenuous here or extremely biased.

Guardians have access to way more blocks and blinds than an engie has.

How am I being biased or disingenuous? I’m not making these up but rather showing you evidence. Here, let me list the skills in question that allow for mistakes to be made.

-Shelter: 2 second block, 30 sec cd. Gearshield: 3 second block, 20(16 traited) cd. It’s almost more than 2 times effective. If we’re talking quantity then you’re correct. However, i’d gladly trade for more of a shield-stance skill than active blocking at this point.

-Nading at their feet which also, allows for a ton of counter play and the ability to peel for yourself.

-100% up time on Swiftness

-Slick shoes for, once again, the cc mentioned which would allow for significant pressure.

Edit: Aside from lack of swiftness, the Guardian also lacks any real slowing conditions to stick to their opponent.

Absolutely they do. Aside from having an incredibly low cd block, arguably the best healing skill in the game plus a ton of control/mobility, this is completely the case.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Arken.3725:

Their main draw is condition dmg(a bit more physical for cele engie). The amount of sustained dmg coupled with their ability to sustain themselves is what’s the issue. Not a lot of these skills are easily avoidable(Overcharged shot being 1). Hell, even though a lot of the Elementalist’s skills are easy to avoid, there’s only so much you can dodge, you’re going to eat something.

Edit: Still baffles me, after 5 pages of discussion and repeated arguments that some still don’t see the issue’s with the two classes mentioned. Either it’s extreme bias for those who play them or pure ignorance.

Engi definitely has some very hard abilities to avoid (possible, but super super hard). I’m talking pretty much exclusively about ele in this case though. Dodging isn’t the only way to avoid damage. Every build has other methods of shutting down ele damage. Even if you do eat something, it’s not the end of the world.

Since the nerf, there hasn’t really been a moment for me where I went “WOW that damage” from an ele. Maybe engineer, but they’re speccing into it. Not surprising.

I think my biggest issue if I were to put it simply is there’s too much room for error for these professions. Making a mistake or two won’t cost them at all in comparison to the rest of the professions.

Edit: and yes, you’re right that there are more ways to avoid damage aside from dodging but my point remains is there’s still not enough in terms of avoidance OR there’s too much on the offensive side.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

That’s just it tho. They aren’t “good” at alot of stuff. They are “great” at everything.

Define great. Their burst/DPS is much lower than the vast majority of DPSers in the game. I really only see their sustain/support/mobility being really strong. Their DPS can be pretty easily handled, while their sustain is what is difficult to counter (instant and lots of condi removal for poison/chilled). Their mobility is pretty crazy too with FGS/RTL/LF. Fire Magic accounts for the vast majority of the damage output of DD eles, all of which can definitely be handled. Even with just healing turret, you can simply clear the burning/poison if you mess up a dodge or get locked down. I’m having trouble accepting the argument that the damage on cele ele is too much to handle.

Their main draw is condition dmg(a bit more physical for cele engie). The amount of sustained dmg coupled with their ability to sustain themselves is what’s the issue. Not a lot of these skills are easily avoidable(Overcharged shot being 1). Hell, even though a lot of the Elementalist’s skills are easy to avoid, there’s only so much you can dodge, you’re going to eat something.

Edit: Still baffles me, after 5 pages of discussion and repeated arguments that some still don’t see the issue’s with the two classes mentioned. Either it’s extreme bias for those who play them or pure ignorance.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

I think that the DPS role being filled by celestial engineers is still a problem. Because, these guys put out great DPS and still being extremely tanky. Now the defensive portions of celestial should not be nerfed. The offensive portions should. Once the offensive portions are nerfed, THEN these guys support/defensive role will no longer match bunkers.

It seems like you’re suggesting the concept of the celestial player (good at a lot of stuff, but not great) shouldn’t exist. If the damage on celestial ele is nerfed, then it’s just another bunker.

A little off-topic but in any instance I can think of where a spec was introduced into any game that can do everything, it’s either amazing or completely trash. The former seems to be represented in this game.

Thing is Jportell, you need to post what you think should happen. To me, these changes aren’t nearly enough. I wouldn’t even call that “shaving.”

I think the argument of being countered by one profession just isn’t enough. While I understand your sentiment, I don’t think it’s enough to justify the point. The same could be said about say Mesmer’s being countered by much more.

Edit: That’s not entirely true. A zerker meta doesn’t exist because players like to take the path of least resistance; finding the best way to survive while putting out as much damage as possible. And if your argument is Thief being the problem, put a meditation Guardian in your team.

I use Staff/Hammer exclusively as part of my Meditation build. I find it to be far superior in every way to Scepter/focus.

-The auto does the exact same dmg as scepter while also going through walls, can’t be strafe-dodged and is AoE.

-Orb of light hits like a truck and is on an incredibly low cd. I’ve hit heavy-armored targets for 2600 and light-armored for 4k(spvp). Obviously I NEVER detonate it unless I know the extra dmg will finish off my opponent.

-Every spvp match i’m in, I never run out of swiftness. This is due to proper placement when fighting your enemy. Same goes for Empower which helps to setup your burst even further.

-The line of warding I feel, is stronger than a single-target immobilize. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve stopped a stomp animation by placing the line directly in front of an enemy thus forcing the KD. Just one example of course.

-

We seem to be circling back around to Celestial Amulet being the culprit. It’s not the primary offender but it does accentuate the problem. I also believe that when HoT releases the state of balance will change, just not sure if for the better. Let me explain:

Ever since the GW2’s creation, every single iteration of balance has leaned towards a more tanky, self sustaining era of balance. We’ve went from the Berserker meta(my favorite) to the Condi-tank meta and finally, to the Celestial meta. Each time we’ve leaned towards more and more tankiness as well as encouraging more condition application vs. positioning and setting up burst.

rotten.9753:

Arken.3725:

It is a bad thing since burning is the highest dmg condition in the game and with such easy access to it, it makes literally zero sense. Even though Engineer’s have a random crit-proc it’s still only single-target based and STILL has a lower duration overall with runes factored in.

Engies have an access to more conditions than elementalists. Why do you think there’s no viable condition build for eles if they have such an easy access to the highest damaging condition? Same as guardians.

Engies have more access but shorter duration burning. This is a fact. In fact, when you die to an Ele, the vast majority of the time it’s due to burning.

It is a bad thing since burning is the highest dmg condition in the game and with such easy access to it, it makes literally zero sense. Even though Engineer’s have a random crit-proc it’s still only single-target based and STILL has a lower duration overall with runes factored in.

Except not every profession is rewarded with kit-swapping. The example of sigils is a moot point since everyone has access to it.

It has an obvious tell but having the only counter be, “don’t attack” is dumb. I’ve dealt with low health since the beginning(Guardian here), it doesn’t mean I should have copious amounts of boons given to me.

I was leaning more towards Soothing wave. Not to mention removing conditions when applied to yourself and/or allies makes it incredibly powerful.

You make it seem like every profession has access to constant boonstrip, this is obviously not the case, a poor argument at best.

Again, see my argument above about boon-strip.

Sorry dude, your defense of EVERYTHING I’ve suggested leads me to assume your bias is out and in the open very clearly.

Edit: Once again, I have zero issue giving the Elementalist more innate defense’s(whether it be more health and/or armor).

BlackBeard.2873:

Arken.3725:

You’re probably right Blackbeard, i’m not saying my suggestions are right but rather putting up something I believe to be a bit over-the-top and why. Good to hear from you. I am just looking at it from a stand-point of up-time on too many powerful boons. I’d love to see them replace bunker guardian’s as the same role and nothing more when speccing the same way.

Edit: I guess my point is being incredibly strong against both forms of damage doesn’t jive with me, even when speccing into it.

Well ele and guard are both good against both kinds of damage when specced for it, but ele is stronger against sustained condis/power damage, while guards are much better at bursts (with their burst cleanses, heals, block (shelter) and line of warding for better kiting). This is why guard was taken in the past over ele (which always had the healing potential), because it does better at being able to survive teamfights and secure stomps/resses. Ele is the bunker of choice now because it has good damage (and decent mobility) on a bunker spec. Take away the damage a bit and the picture muddies some more.

I think it needs a bit more than just taking away the damage. You’d still have sustain/cc/mobility and some support. Again, if an elementalist wants to be a bunker, by all means. But that’s all you should do well in. If we’re talking about burst cleanses, Elementalist matches them and surpasses them in a sustained fight. Now if we’re talking burst physical mitigation, you’re partially correct. What I mean is it depends on when you can burst and if you can land it in between the time protection/aura isn’t active.

You’re probably right Blackbeard, i’m not saying my suggestions are right but rather putting up something I believe to be a bit over-the-top and why. Good to hear from you. I am just looking at it from a stand-point of up-time on too many powerful boons. I’d love to see them replace bunker guardian’s as the same role and nothing more when speccing the same way.

Edit: I guess my point is being incredibly strong against both forms of damage doesn’t jive with me, even when speccing into it.

Novuake.2691:

jportell.2197:

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

No counter play means its broken. At least D/D allows you to fight the ele, instead of getting blasted to oblivion.

Both have their issue’s. While I completely understand the instant-ranged burst nature of S/F, it still is susceptible to burst/condi pressure.

Supreme.3164:

Arken.3725:

jportell.2197:

Novuake.2691:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

What is your aim with these proposed changes? What ele would be if your suggestions would be taken into consideration?

Pls do not answer with something like :" it would make them weaker", show us and the devs that you know what you’re talking about
Describe multiple situations and how the changes would affect an ele respect to the current status and abilities showed at high levels, describe how each profession would benefit from these changes on ele; can you do that or “it makes them weaker” will be your best answer?

I’ll break it down for you. As I’ve stated many times and i’ll state it again:

-Drake’s breath still provides the highest AoE up time of burning of any other skill/trait in the game. I don’t think I need anymore information than that. For a skill that applies so much burning, single-target skills should be superior in the same fashion. This is not the case.

Elemental Attunement: This goes into the line of thinking that you’re being rewarded for nothing more than just swapping kits, that’s it. So instead of having 65% uptime, you’ll be down to 39-42% depending on the change. This would allow other professions more time to time their burst and not just look at a long-duration helmet.

Frozen Aura: For a spec that allows for so much hard/soft cc, bringing this down to 5 seconds doesn’t seem like much of a nerf. Not to mention it’s a pretty hard-counter to any sort of melee-based burst.

Cleansing Water: Again, as stated above, this allows Ele’s to have arguably the best condition removal without much thought-process involved. Giving Ele’s a more direct way of removing condition’s (such as cleansing fire) makes more sense instead of passive applications.

Elemental Shielding: Just goes back to my original argument of allowing for proper burst without worrying about the constant annoyance of so much dmg-reduction.

Renewing stamina: Vigor is arguably the strongest boon in the game. Bringing this down to what Guardian’s/Mesmer’s got nerfed with(while also making it a minor) would help.

My end argument is this: If you want to specialize into support/sustain, you should excel in one and be good in another. That’s it. You shouldn’t excel not only in the tree’s you’ve invested in but also other aspects of combat(cc/dmg/mobility). My example before was Bunker Guardian and how that was the case of having to specialize and being sub par at everything else. No one profession should be able to do EVERYTHING exceptionally well.

jportell.2197:

Novuake.2691:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

Engineer:

Incendiary Powder: Have a visual que as to when this will apply. This will allow for proper counterplay(evasion/blocking).

Overcharged Shot: Put a cast time of either 1/2 sec or 3/4 with a windup.

Poison Grenade: Make these blockable

Gear shield: Increase cd to 30 seconds.

Magnet: Make this visible through stealth.

Just some suggestions. Obviously the Ele/Engie community won’t like these but I think some of these would certainly help bringing them in line.

Please, show me video’s, i’d love to see them. And that’s completely false, a Guardian falls a part incredibly fast when it’s a 2/3v1. And where is this plethora of Blocks,regen and protection? Assuming you’re using scepter/shield with staff, you have no blocks aside from heal and popping your courage. Protection/Regen? Aside from an incredibly long cd that is VoC/Resolve, all you have is Hold the Line. Again, I don’t see a *plethora" of anything.

Edit: And again, me playing both the Elementalist and Guardian to compare makes absolutely no sense when I barely even play the former.

I never stated Bunker Guardian had superb sustain, in fact it actually didn’t. It revolved heavily on your teammates rotating. It’s self-sustain was decent at best. Elementalists easily outshined them in that department and not support.

Edit: Is this a joke? Elementalist’s completely out-shine Guardians in terms ofsustain, even on a point.

Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?

edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Arken.3725:

I’m not unreasonable.

Arken.3725:

you still have access to the most AoE application of burning in the game. There’s an issue with that.

Yes, no class should have the most of anything, every class should be exactly the same. Totally reasonable.

What I said wasn’t unreasonable but a fact. Not every profession should be the same but rather applications of certain conditions need to be ironed out.

I’m not unreasonable. I’m just trying to suggest changes to make this game more fun/active and rewarding or proper skill

I have absolutely no problem with increasing armor and/or health to compensate as well as certain skills that have too long of a cd. I’m more than happy to compensate where it’s needed.

Except Elementalist’s are not in a decent spot. Just stated above as to why they’re over-the-top. Drake’s breath helped but you still have access to the most AoE application of burning in the game. There’s an issue with that.

Narkodx.1472:

Swim.6830:

Arken.3725:

Narkodx.1472:

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

I have some facts right here.

Ele: These are just SOME of the examples.

-At least 65% up time on vigor/regen/protection/swiftness/might
-Access to significant amounts of CC (Frozen burst, chill aura, shocking aura, updraft, magnetic grasp, earth quake)
-Highest AoE burn up time in the game with little-to-no investment involved(drake’s breath)

Engineer: Again, just SOME of the examples

-Highest block up time of any profession
-Instant-ranged KB that also cures movement-impeding effects.
-Little-to-no visual representation when spamming grenades at feet.
-Uncounterable application of burning upon crit.
-Excellent mobility due to 100% up time of swiftness.

These are just some examples from the two apex predators on top of them being inherently tanky(due to celestial or rabid for Condition Engineer).

Edit: I hope we never focus on a meta to where every profession can utilize celestial efficiently, this leads to a very boring meta where setting up burst will be insignificant and long, drawn-out fights will reign supreme. We need to go back to the Zerker meta.

If I started listing all specific things all classes can do when specced correctly, we’d be here all day. Elementalists has been nerfed into the ground since BETA because people can’t learn to play… You might as well list mesmer there because they have too many “get out of jail” cards /s…

If classes with high base HP can get amulets that compliment perfectly their stats for a build, why should classes which are in the middle or less get the shaft for their builds?

Whether the devs intended, the facts are that every class has a weakness and you can’t just pick the golden class and build to beat them all. All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

Arken – You have to say WHY those things are OP and argue why the devs simply did not intend elementalist/engineer to be that way

The way Elementalists specifically invest their traits it seems intended to have high boon uptime cleanses and heals – 6 in water/arcana

- Elementalist has definitely not be nerfed into the ground and your bias is showing you should relax yourself

I thought I did, guess not. Well then here’s my reasoning and it goes for ALL professions. There needs to be proper risk vs. reward. Being a bruiser or “master of all trades” doesn’t scale well with proper risk vs investment. When you only give up a tiny bit of (burst) damage for an abundance of sustain/mobility/cc with a tiny bit of support, there’s an issue.

Edit: Here’s a trivia question for everyone. This might sound biased because I main Guardian. Which spec on which profession had proper balance in terms of sustain/dps/support/cc? Here’s a hint, it had decent sustain and excellent support while everything else was sub par.

Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.

Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.

Narkodx.1472:

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

I have some facts right here.

Ele: These are just SOME of the examples.

-At least 65% up time on vigor/regen/protection/swiftness/might
-Access to significant amounts of CC (Frozen burst, chill aura, shocking aura, updraft, magnetic grasp, earth quake)
-Highest AoE burn up time in the game with little-to-no investment involved(drake’s breath)

Engineer: Again, just SOME of the examples

-Highest block up time of any profession
-Instant-ranged KB that also cures movement-impeding effects.
-Little-to-no visual representation when spamming grenades at feet.
-Uncounterable application of burning upon crit.
-Excellent mobility due to 100% up time of swiftness.

These are just some examples from the two apex predators on top of them being inherently tanky(due to celestial or rabid for Condition Engineer).

Edit: I hope we never focus on a meta to where every profession can utilize celestial efficiently, this leads to a very boring meta where setting up burst will be insignificant and long, drawn-out fights will reign supreme. We need to go back to the Zerker meta.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

style.6173:

Wow. There are actually people who still don’t get that cele is over powered?

I’m watching this thread to give feedback to the development team. What exactly about it do you think is OP? What don’t you like about it?

Very kind of you to keep tabs on threads such as these. I honestly don’t believe Celestial is the main culprit here. Does it contribute? Absolutely.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Arken.3725:

The issue (once again), isn’t the amulet but the professions themselves. Give a look-over the traits/skills utilized by Ele’s/Engie’s. Celestial amulet just accentuates the issue, it isn’t the cause.

Generally the idea behind the word celestial is more about how it plays, rather than the amulet itself. If I was to rephrase it, celestial bruiser builds? Aka, builds that are pretty good at everything, but not a specialist like bunkers, bursters or supporters.

Thing is, these builds allow them to excel as bunkers/bursters(not so much supporters). I prefer the old Berserker meta back at launch. Reason being was that due to this game’s combat-nature, being rewarded for proper avoidance/positioning was crucial. It seems like now a days these bruisers are too tough while also putting out similar burst(through might).

Edit: Proper risk/reward has gone down significantly in my opinion.

The issue (once again), isn’t the amulet but the professions themselves. Give a look-over the traits/skills utilized by Ele’s/Engie’s. Celestial amulet just accentuates the issue, it isn’t the cause.

I think theme’s have been sorta thrown out the window. For kitten sake, Necromancers are getting Great Swords. I personally would rather them fix scepter and give us Axes instead.

Artaz.3819:

Arken.3725:

Black Box.9312:

Arken.3725:

Tron.3471:

Arken.3725:

If it is true that our new mechanic is stances then that’s awesome to me. Virtues by nature(signets) are very boring so having something similar to Elementalists(attunements) begs for a more active(and fun) role.

I’m not sure why the virtues get so much hate. When properly traited the virtues are pretty awesome. Anyways, I am excited at the possibility of a new mechanic and using the longbow. Hoping we get some actual information about class specialization soon.

Here are my issue’s with Virtues atm.

1. Incredibly long CD’s on their actives which, to me, don’t provide enough benefit unless you trait FULLY into Virtues.

2. The passive’s are terrible. Virtue’s are inherently signets and yet if you took away the passives on at least Courage/Resolve, I probably wouldn’t notice.

3. The benefits given are boring/uninteresting at best that don’t allow for more active-play.

Again, these are my opinions.

Edit: I am honestly hoping it would be like an offensive(justice), defensive(courage) and support(resolve) type of change for stances.

Honestly, I kind of have to agree with this. VoJ is good, but both VoR and VoC suffer from high cooldowns and lackluster passive abilities. Renewed Focus aside, the only way to really make them effective is if you trait 6 into Virtues, but it’s kind of silly that you have to fully invest into a class mechanic to make it viable. Even a mesmer’s distortion shatter, which grants complete invulnerability for up to 3 seconds, is only on a 60 second base cooldown.

This brings back a point I made long ago that Guardian(and Ranger) are the only ones who have to spec heavily for their respective elite to work decently.

Rampage as One works great out of the box and doesn’t even have any direct traits to support it (there are a couple of synergistic traits Rangers have with the correct pet setup). Rangers also get a 60s Entangle that just gets better and better with traits especially SotF.

The problem with Guardian Elites is simple, the cooldowns are all too long (even Renewed Focus should be 60s base) for what they do.

It’s interesting because you could compare similar invulnerabilities and still find some of them to be superior in nature(Obsidian flesh being one) without sacrificing their elite slot.

I love my Guardian as well, the concept seems very entertaining but the implementation seems to be lacking a bit. Here are my issue’s and why you might want to reconsider Guardian:

-Mobility: Probably the slowest profession in the game. You have access to 1, maybe 2 gap-closers but the issue here is sticking to your opponent which the Guardian lacks severely. It doesn’t make much sense for a (primarily) melee profession to lack BOTH speed and control.

-Ranged Viability: Arguably the worst ranged viability. Even when the scepter AA was buffed slightly,(I think it was 10%?) it’s still incredibly ineffective and easily strafe-dodged.

-Control: Going back to my original argument of mobility. With zero access to on-demand cripple/chill, it just doesn’t make too much sense for a melee profession to lack both.

-Sustain: For a game touting self-sustainability, to gain any of it you need your teammates to be close(AH). I can’t name a single other profession that has the same(if not more) sustain without the need of their teammates being nearby.

These are some of the issues I see(there are more) off the top of my head. I love this class since it reminds me of a sorta Magic-Melee type profession.

Edit: I would go as far as to claim that the Guardian is THE most melee-centric profession in the game due to its terrible ranged-vability.

Black Box.9312:

Arken.3725:

Tron.3471:

Arken.3725:

If it is true that our new mechanic is stances then that’s awesome to me. Virtues by nature(signets) are very boring so having something similar to Elementalists(attunements) begs for a more active(and fun) role.

I’m not sure why the virtues get so much hate. When properly traited the virtues are pretty awesome. Anyways, I am excited at the possibility of a new mechanic and using the longbow. Hoping we get some actual information about class specialization soon.

Here are my issue’s with Virtues atm.

1. Incredibly long CD’s on their actives which, to me, don’t provide enough benefit unless you trait FULLY into Virtues.

2. The passive’s are terrible. Virtue’s are inherently signets and yet if you took away the passives on at least Courage/Resolve, I probably wouldn’t notice.

3. The benefits given are boring/uninteresting at best that don’t allow for more active-play.

Again, these are my opinions.

Edit: I am honestly hoping it would be like an offensive(justice), defensive(courage) and support(resolve) type of change for stances.

Honestly, I kind of have to agree with this. VoJ is good, but both VoR and VoC suffer from high cooldowns and lackluster passive abilities. Renewed Focus aside, the only way to really make them effective is if you trait 6 into Virtues, but it’s kind of silly that you have to fully invest into a class mechanic to make it viable. Even a mesmer’s distortion shatter, which grants complete invulnerability for up to 3 seconds, is only on a 60 second base cooldown.

This brings back a point I made long ago that Guardian(and Ranger) are the only ones who have to spec heavily for their respective elite to work decently.

Tron.3471:

Arken.3725:

If it is true that our new mechanic is stances then that’s awesome to me. Virtues by nature(signets) are very boring so having something similar to Elementalists(attunements) begs for a more active(and fun) role.

I’m not sure why the virtues get so much hate. When properly traited the virtues are pretty awesome. Anyways, I am excited at the possibility of a new mechanic and using the longbow. Hoping we get some actual information about class specialization soon.

Here are my issue’s with Virtues atm.

1. Incredibly long CD’s on their actives which, to me, don’t provide enough benefit unless you trait FULLY into Virtues.

2. The passive’s are terrible. Virtue’s are inherently signets and yet if you took away the passives on at least Courage/Resolve, I probably wouldn’t notice.

3. The benefits given are boring/uninteresting at best that don’t allow for more active-play.

Again, these are my opinions.

Edit: I am honestly hoping it would be like an offensive(justice), defensive(courage) and support(resolve) type of change for stances.

If it is true that our new mechanic is stances then that’s awesome to me. Virtues by nature(signets) are very boring so having something similar to Elementalists(attunements) begs for a more active(and fun) role.

I say let the man enjoy himself. Who gives a kitten as long as he enjoys the game.