(edited by Arken.3725)
I’m hoping they look to make more traits competitive with each other. The only line and tier I really had to think about what to take was radiance master’s. The rest I knew right away and that’s not good for diversity.
Also wanted to point out that Kindled Zeal feels very out of place in Zeal. With condition dmg overall being nerfed without significant investment, having this in the power line makes no sense. If anything, the conversion should be changed to something else, maybe toughness?
I’d rather take some solid mobility over any form of CC if we’re to receive none. *looking for a 25% movement trait.
Pure of voice, sorry I didn’t clarify.
Edit: Just the overall usefulness is far superior to a subpar regeneration. The whole point was to have them essentially be strong picks against each other. I don’t feel that’s the case here.
I don’t think Battle Presence is strong enough to compete with PoV, not even close.
Again Xhyros, this is only significant in PVE where your targets are mindless botsa standing in whatever you throw. Landing symbols on a top-tier player is incredibly hard and even if you do, it lasts less than a second.
Honestly, there needs to be something given in return. With Guardian having virtually no access to soft cc and mobility being hindered, we need something.
The problem with the 20% isn’t the number; it’s that two weapons don’t have symbols (maybe three if LB doesn’t). That’s not so much a problem, but it does create a significant bias for PVE. I actually think for PVP, symbols should have a bigger effect because the good players will use it to control the land.
Just to reiterate, symbols really only work well in pve. WvW I see them being almost completely useless while a little less so in spvp.
Completely forgot about the new system. Was still going back to the old one when I mentioned Thief as example of having both.
At the very least, Honor adepts need more appealing options. Outside of maceblock heal stacks, the other two feel very weak.
10% would be terrible considered it’s a GM slot. 20% is fine for spvp where you’re fighting intelligent players that have the intellectual fortitude to actually move.
I just think that 10% instead of 5% for Zealous blade would make more sense. Also, having the heal tied to that specific weapon is incredibly limiting especially since it only works upon hit.
Edit: Again, scepter tracking needs to be adjusted, it’s just underwhelming to have 50% of your projectiles miss.
You are listing attributes to professions that need to have, quite literally, all tree’s maxed to obtain. Thief stealth burst and evades? Last I checked it’s one (acrobat) or the other(executioner/panic strike). Guard having long duration/consistent ones along with burst also doesn’t exist since you need to pick one or the other.
These are just some examples of classes NEEDING to have every line maxed out (which is impossible) whereas the Elementalist obtains CC, Sustain, Pressure and boon application within 3 lines.
There is no way that 20% damage in symbols trait is not gonna be nerfed to 5 or 10%. That is just too wildly OP, no one would ever use anything other than maces or hammers for PvE unless mace and hammer damage were heavily nerfed to compensate.
It’s incredibly difficult to keep a somewhat intelligent player inside your symbol in spvp so no, I don’t think it should get nerfed down.
Edit: Noticed you mentioned PvE
Also, I think you should add these to the list that need to be looked at/serve the least purpose:
Zealous Scepter: This needs a 10% dmg increase along with the proposed changes as well as it’s tracking fixed.
Zealous Blade: A very poor trait for GS since the healing is incredibly small as well as the dmg bonus.
Renewed Justice/Courageous Return: Both need an added effect. Kill/revive traits feel useless during combat.
Valorous Defense: I think this needs a complete overhaul. I never notice its existence.
Retributive armor: Directly competing with the other traits that provide sustain while this provides none.
Empowering Might: I also think this needs an overhaul. the ICD as well as the short duration make it very unappealing.
Battle Presence/Permeating Wrath: Like Retributive armor, these are directly competing with an amazing choice for sustain.
Retaliatory Subsconscious: ICD too long, duration too short.
Edit: To the post above, the sustain provided by symbols isn’t enough to compete with AH/Monks Focus.
I think more so with Valor if you want to spec DPS. I don’t see Honor providing much self-sustain. Also, I still think Force of Will is still too plain/not enough to compete with Pure of Voice
Also Eekzie, i’m speaking strictly from an spvp PoV. Valor is still going to be a necessity for sustain so that leaves 2 more lines. Without any real access to movement/soft cc, Guardian just doesn’t feel like a proper melee profession.
One more thing I wanted to point out was that if you don’t decide to spec at all into Virtues, the class mechanic (Virtues) will be pretty much nonexistent. Having some traits spread across all tree’s would be nice as well.
Isn’t that the point? Having to choose between two strong traits instead of having access to everything? This is what diversity is all about.
Then they should make all classes to choose, thieves don’t for example. The traits are crucial to ele. I doubt it will bring more diversity, it will just kill one of the traits.
Having one example(thief) isn’t a strong enough argument for one profession to have access to a multitude boons, pressure, sustain and CC. There needs to be some give and this will make you choose what’s more important to you.
Edit: and this will still be the case after the changes are implemented.
(edited by Arken.3725)
Isn’t that the point? Having to choose between two strong traits instead of having access to everything? This is what diversity is all about.
The change was a pretty significant blow to Dps Guards. Again, without any real mobility/soft cc, it’s going to be even harder to stick to targets.
Zeal: I pretty much agree with everything except Binding Jeopardy. I still think it’s too weak to compete against Symbolic Avenger.
Radiance: Completely agree with concerns here
Valor: Agree with all except Courageous return, I think it’s too situational/weak. Give it something on top of it.
Honor: Agree with all
Virtues: Retaliatory Subconscious is incredibly weak, needs adjustment. Agree with rest
Edit: Just to addon, I still hope we can get some soft cc going because the nerf to hammer chill was pretty big. Also, a 25% movement trait was something EVERYONE wants I think.
Zeal: I pretty much agree with everything except Binding Jeopardy. I still think it’s too weak to compete against Symbolic Avenger.
Radiance: Completely agree with concerns here
Valor: Agree with all except Courageous return, I think it’s too situational/weak. Give it something on top of it.
Honor: Agree with all
Virtues: Retaliatory Subconscious is incredibly weak, needs adjustment. Agree with rest
I’ll just post my opinion on the changes that I thought needed a little more from another thread. Most were great though.
There were some nice buffs but here’s a list of traits I still feel to be too weak or need to be adjusted from their proposed changes.
Zeal:
Zealots Speed is still the same and yet it provides no speed. Maybe an overhaul would work better.
Zealous scepter/Wrathful spirit: both still don’t seem strong enough to compete with Fiery Wrath. Put a 10% dmg increase and fix projectiles with scepter and maybe add something else aside from ret for Wrathful spirit.
Zealous Blade/Binding jeopardy: Like above, these don’t seem significant enough to compete with Kindled Zeal. The healing/dmg bonus from zealous blade is still a pittance.
Radiance:
Renewed Justice: I’d like to see another affect added onto this aside from reactivating upon a kill(especially as a master minor)
Healers Retribution: Duration seems very small for the long cd heals Guardians possess. This seems incredibly weak in comparison to both Right-handed strength and Inner Fire.
Radiant retaliation: The dmg from retal overall is incredibly small, even with a ton of power. I see this as another weak alternative to the other two.
Valor:
Valorous defense: Even with the ICD cut in half, the overall affect of this trait is largely unnoticed.
Courageous return: Just like Renewed Justice, I’d like to see another affect added onto this seeing as how useless these revive/kill on traits are during combat.
Retributive Armor: Seeing as how the Guardian must either have Monks Focus or Altruistic healing for survival, I don’t see this trait providing any sustain and thus is lacking.
Honor:
Symbof Protection: Fall traits need to be either merged with other traits or have an added effect.
Empowering Might: Surprised to see this is still the same, I don’t think many took it since there was an ICD along with a very short duration attached. Maybe this needs to be overhauled.
Force of Will: Still a very unimaginative trait. This is competing against Pure of Voice which is one of the best traits(still) in the game and a very promising symbol trait.
Virtues:
Retaliatory Subconsciousness: ICD is way too long and duration is way too short.
Permeating Wrath/Battle Presence: Both are incredibly underwhelming when compared to Indomitable courage.
General
Until we know what skills have changed, we can still assume that scepter auto is widely unreliable. Also, I think a lot of us were hoping for a 25% movement trait seeing as how the Guardian lacks swiftness and soft CC.
There were some nice buffs but here’s a list of traits I still feel to be too weak or need to be adjusted from their proposed changes.
Zeal:
Zealots Speed is still the same and yet it provides no speed. Maybe an overhaul would work better.
Zealous scepter/Wrathful spirit: both still don’t seem strong enough to compete with Fiery Wrath. Put a 10% dmg increase and fix projectiles with scepter and maybe add something else aside from ret for Wrathful spirit.
Zealous Blade/Binding jeopardy: Like above, these don’t seem significant enough to compete with Kindled Zeal. The healing/dmg bonus from zealous blade is still a pittance.
Radiance:
Renewed Justice: I’d like to see another affect added onto this aside from reactivating upon a kill(especially as a master minor)
Healers Retribution: Duration seems very small for the long cd heals Guardians possess. This seems incredibly weak in comparison to both Right-handed strength and Inner Fire.
Radiant retaliation: The dmg from retal overall is incredibly small, even with a ton of power. I see this as another weak alternative to the other two.
Valor:
Valorous defense: Even with the ICD cut in half, the overall affect of this trait is largely unnoticed.
Courageous return: Just like Renewed Justice, I’d like to see another affect added onto this seeing as how useless these revive/kill on traits are during combat.
Retributive Armor: Seeing as how the Guardian must either have Monks Focus or Altruistic healing for survival, I don’t see this trait providing any sustain and thus is lacking.
Honor:
Symbol of Protection: Fall traits need to be either merged with other traits or have an added effect.
Empowering Might: Surprised to see this is still the same, I don’t think many took it since there was an ICD along with a very short duration attached. Maybe this needs to be overhauled.
Force of Will: Still a very unimaginative trait. This is competing against Pure of Voice which is one of the best traits(still) in the game and a very promising symbol trait.
Virtues:
Retaliatory Subconsciousness: ICD is way too long and duration is way too short.
Permeating Wrath/Battle Presence: Both are incredibly underwhelming when compared to Indomitable courage.
General
Until we know what skills have changed, we can still assume that scepter auto is widely unreliable. Also, I think a lot of us were hoping for a 25% movement trait seeing as how the Guardian lacks swiftness and soft CC.
(edited by Arken.3725)
I just think something else should be tied in with it since most other traits other classes have get an additional effect.
I had some issue’s with the kill and revive traits from radiance and valor still, needs changing to be honest.
The kill trait from radiance (the one that refreshes justice, right?) is a very iconic and loved effect in PvE. I don’t think they would change it so easily.
Talking from an sPvP point of view. Same with Valorous defense.
I had some issue’s with the kill and revive traits from radiance and valor still, needs changing to be honest.
It’s because the real problem lies within the skills/traits, not Celestial. Celestial just accentuates the problem, it’s not the core issue.
Guardians are the most balanced profession IMO. They rely on the least amount of significant passives for their play (aside from Vigorous precision) while lacking the necessary tools to be an effective melee fighter(CC, mobility). I will say though i’m not a fan of instant skills since they provide no counterplay so meditations make it seem like it’s easy but if you don’t manage your skills carefully, you’ll be in trouble.
A simple google search can do wonders Arcaedus. Also in response to your last paragraph, this is completely false. You can be attacked while still avoiding these orbs.
Edit: Look at how close that dude is too, i’d say he’s around 600 units away.
That video is from 2013, way before they increased the projectile speed of the scepter. It’s not nearly as bad as that now.
It’s pretty much just as bad. It only got a 20% increase I believe? Not completely confident but still nearly just as slow/unreliable.
That is very kind sir. Hopefully i’ll have more to post later on.
From what I’ve seen dude, the only other projectile that’s even remotely as problematic as this is Ranger MH axe.
Edit: I get your argument but if 90% of the projectiles in this game cannot be strafed, that’s a problem too.
Hey guys, just wanted to post a recent matchup I had against 3 other players at the keep On Forest. I think I should have died many times over instead of winning.
A simple google search can do wonders Arcaedus. Also in response to your last paragraph, this is completely false. You can be attacked while still avoiding these orbs.
Edit: Look at how close that dude is too, i’d say he’s around 600 units away.
-Worst ranged weaponry in the game(scepter is still easily strafe-dodged)
-Little-to-no cc/mobility to keep up with your enemy
-Sustain dmg is non-existent
-Too easy to predict burst- Well the auto-attack is pretty bad for PvP, but your main goal is to land the Smite as a burst. Forcing the guy to take the hit inside a node or with immobilize.
- Yes and no. You still have Judge Intervention and 2 immobilize (Hammer/Sceptre) or 1 CC and 1 leap (with GS). So you have a good cc/mobility, but it’s short duration. If we can’t burst down with down, we gonna have a problem.
- Yes, but we have many shot CD burst which allow a good rotation. Mighty Blow (5sec CD), Smite (6sec CD), Smite Condition (16sec CD), Whirlwind (10sec CD), Symbol of Wrath (20sec).
- Well it depend how to use it. You could say that of a lot of burst skill. Lich Form, Rapid Fire, Backstab, etc. Good players know how to recognize them, but good players also know how to use these burst at the right time. Judge of intervention allow you to put a burst without allow much prediction and smite condition is instant cast. Overall I don’t think it’s a huge problem for Medi Guardian, but we still need to be think about it and play around that, like most other burst build. If the first thing you do as a ranger is Rapid Fire, you will waste it too. If you use Lich Form at the wrong time people are gonna be able to burst you down or immobilize and fight behind you.
-Except it’s not. When your auto attack is pretty much completely mitigated just by moving side to side, that’s a huge flaw.
-You’re assuming someone is going to utilize a Great sword, Hammer and Scepter all at once with that description. My problem wasn’t with getting to your target but rather sticking on them afterwards.
-That’s all burst assuming you’re not getting kited. Smite condition is really the only one on that list that will hit reliably due to it being instant. The rest is just far too easy to avoid.
Here are my issue’s with Guardian as a DPS role.
-Worst ranged weaponry in the game(scepter is still easily strafe-dodged)
-Little-to-no cc/mobility to keep up with your enemy
-Sustain dmg is non-existent
-Too easy to predict burst
When your ranged weapon misses <50% of the time, there’s an issue. Depending on the build you’re running, if you have no stability, countering you is that much easier.
Guardian is a great class and one I consider to be the most balanced. This is a vague explanation as to what I believe is a problem even though there’s far more.
From personal experience, there’s a decent chance against being a Fresh Air Ele due to their relative squishiness vs say a Cele D/D. Quoting SlayerSixx in that their versatility is overwhelming. There’s only so much you can avoid.
You’re not going to be able to avoid/mitigate the burning to to the low cd of drake’s breath/Ring of Fire.
The sheer amount of protection/vigor uptime makes relatively impossible to setup your burst and even if by some chance you do land it, their CC comes into play to keep you at bay and regenerate.
This is a broad example of the issue’s I have with D/D elementalists.
Edit:
Fresh Air is easier to deal with but their instant ranged dmg makes it even more of a pain in the kitten sometimes.
Litany of Wrath – everyone knows it sucks… how about adding a water field… at least that way you still have to actively combo heal/can be interrupted.
Make it instant like it’s supposed to be.
I’m not a huge fan of instant skills. That being said, reduce the cd significantly and maybe add 2-3 stacks of stab so you don’t get completely borked when trying to do damage? The visual is incredibly easy to notice and avoid.
Just give it something like the Dhuumfire treatment. Bump it up to GM, increase base Burn duration 1 sec and make it 100% procc chance on toolbelt skills and nothing else. It wouldn’t hurt to add little icons on the boon bar to all passive proccs for all classes as well.
I still prefer my old recommendation on a change but working only on toolbelt skills seems fine as well.
Aside from Air/fire sigils, other forms of passive procs aren’t considered to be nearly as powerful and/or can be anticipated/avoided(Chill on death, Halting Strike). I listed an adjustment in another thread to help deal with it.
Every 10 or so critical hits(whatever anet deems feasible) your weapon/kit will give a distinct glow that then have the next attack proc burning. This would allow the defender to utilize whatever methods they deem necessary to avoid it(dodge/block/Invul/blind)
Edit: This could also be applied to other passive procs.
The problem stems from those arguing against nerfs that don’t bring in any concrete facts aside from subjectivity. All I’ve been hearing from defenders is, “this will delete the class.” Give an explanation as to why and I, as well as many others will hear you out.
I usually ignore Supreme but i’ll do it justice by explaining my listed changes with facts.
Drake’s breath still gives Elementalist’s the highest AoE uptime of burning without any sort of investment what-so-ever. This cannot be disputed.
I may have went overboard with the protection reduction/removal so i’d be more than willing to revert said changes. At the very least, Elemental shielding should be looked at.
Engineer Gearshield is too strong, i’m trying to bring it inline with other blocks. 3 seconds for a 20 sec cd is too good. Instant-casts(overcharged shot) need an animation/cast time since there’s no surefire way to avoid it outside of lucky mitigation.
Incendiary powder has absolutely no way to mitigate. Giving your opponent a way to avoid dmg makes sense here. Finally, being rewarded for being CCed(protection) makes little-to-no sense. If I successfully CC you, your punishment shouldn’t a boon.
Warriors are a given as well. The concept behind cleansing ire was to successfully hit your target and be rewarded with condi-cleanse. Longbow completely forgoes that.
Edit: Don’t bother with the posts above. Those playing the top 3 professions and not acknowledge ANY issue’s what-so-ever are also delusional.
Ele!
Elemental Attunement: Reduce protection to 3 seconds
Elemental Shielding: Grants regen instead of protection.
Renewing stamina: ICD to 10 seconds
Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per pulse
Engie!
Gearshield: Either increase cd to 30 seconds or reduce duration to 2 seconds.
Overcharged shot: .5 second cast-time and a small increase to cooldown.
Incendiary powder: Grant a glowing effect to the engie’s weapon when the next attack procs burning to allow the opponent to evade.
Protection Injection: Increase ICD to 15 seconds.
Warrior!
Cleansing Ire: On Longbow specifically, the initial hit MUST hit a target to cleanse any conditions.
Call to Arms: Reduce vigor to 6 seconds.
Quick breathing: Remove conversion and just have it remove a condition instead.
Had more in mind but these are considered “small” by my standards.
It’s a simple fact that a Guardian against a Thief, both of equal skill, the Guardian will always win.
Edit: It’s not completely 1-sided either. It’s usually pretty close.
I posted changes i’d like to see many months ago so here’s another look:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/The-bad-trait-skill-list/3993342
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/The-bad-trait-skill-list/3983336
Let me know what you guys think.
Quoting Vee Wee is the probably the best way to see how the situation should be handled. Even if you were to have TDM style gameplay, the same specs/amulets would be utilized regardless. None of them are confined to a single point. Every single specialization is incredibly mobile and tanky so anyone actually spouting how balancing around Conquest is difficult makes no sense.
Elementalist might just need a rework or some major tweaking. This class doesnt do the most damage yet it has to deal with the lowest base hp combined with the lowest armor. Meaning you need to spec for living ontop of anything else which already throws you into being a bunker to compensate for the classes ability to survive without certain traits and amulets.
If there is one thing I truly hate about this game is the way elementalist currently are. THeir low damage, low armor and hp is one of the most insane things about this game To me. There is no logic that I see, other than cuz they have a lot of skills.
I hate having to go into water to make a decent survivable build.
So you have to put points in a defensive trait line to play a defensive build? Don’t see what’s wrong with it.
I think some people are actually misunderstanding this. Technically, the current meta doesn’t have Ele’s spend more than 2 points into their defensive tree. The other two are support and class respectively.
Would rather have bunkers that deal no damage than bunkers that deal a lot of damage and are super mobile between points! Just sayin!
Wahoo! Bye frands!
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I would go as far as to say that i’d prefer more straight-forward roles(dps/bunker/support). Not a huge fan of those that can do a multitude more and in some cases, better than those that focus on a specific role. It brings me back to say Bunker Guardian which was really only good at Support while having somewhat decent sustain, that was it. The trade-offs were a lack of dmg/cc/mobility in favor of mainly support and a bit of sustain.
I main Meditation Guardian and I almost feel like a thief without the ability to disengage. Obviously i’m tankier but that’s not the point. The Berserker meta was something that I considered to be far more skillful than any other iteration of balance we’ve received thereafter. Granted some skills/builds had the ability to literally one-shot you and needed to be looked at. Coordinated burst should be rewarded with a downed-player.
Passive procs and instant-cast skills are problematic (IP, meditations, Overcharged shot to name a few) don’t really provide for much counter-play for the player on the defensive end.