Reapers mark, Doom, Corrupt boon, Well of Corruption give 4 from utility/skills. Reaper’s Protection + Fear of Death is 2 more from traits, and then Fear in downed state. So my bad, 7 fears on your own.
Necromancers can have a maximum of 4 fears on an opponent. That translates to 4 seconds.
I can daze someone on my warhorn for 4 seconds when traited and it has a shorter cooldown. I know Mesmers that can do way more than that more effectively even.
6, and the shortest is going to be 1.7 seconds in a PvP terror build (means 2 ticks almost always). We can reach the 5 second fear max pretty easily.
Because
1) He’s Nemesis. He has already gotten a few suggestions into the game, and is one of the biggest people in the Necro community.
2) This is a very well thought out, in depth look over not just what his specific implementation is, but how it should be looked at in general.
3) This is pretty much how he always does things. He doesn’t really write guides, he makes videos.
We have Focus 5, Necromatic Corruption, Well of Corruption, and Corrupt Boon, and I remember also hearing that devs have looked into giving us more boon hate. We are far from lagging behind on that area.
I’ll try this out next time I’m playing, since I use stacking sigils a lot on my MM build; its so easy to have entire games without deaths as an MM (unless your team is losing badly).
“Flimsy rez” – best rez in the game…
Incoming damage would hit at 45% (roughly) with that scenario. Throw in weakness on top, and you’re looking at a new meta of necro/guardian pairs wrecking people.
Add in Arvid’s suggestion for kitten remake:
- What I’m personally in favor of (and has been proposed by others as well) is something akin to Spitefull Spirit from GW1, as that type of gameplay seems to be missing for the GW2 necro atm. As the target already gets damage from the DoT, I’d propose something like this (obviously, this is but one of the many variations on this idea): Hexed – Deals damage every second; every time you deal damage, you deal X% of damage to nearby allies; stacks duration.
The idea (in pvp) isn’t directly to deal damage but to force the enemy to do one of the following (obviously this is in situations where multiple enemies are close together): 1) cleanse the condition, 2) stop dealing damage (stop attacking or only use non-damaging skills), 3) move away from allies, 4) having other allies move a way from the affected target. All 4 benefit the necro in some way, be it making the enemy more open to other conditions (1) or temporarily taking enemies partially out of the fight (2-4) and wasting dodges (3-4). Also, it promotes smarter awareness of positioning on both sides. To achieve this, X should be chosen to add significant pressure to the enemy team if it is ignored (notice that, since it’s % of damage dealt, damage reduction/avoidance actually reduces to effect of the condition, so X could be fairly high). Imo, this could lead to interesting game play, both for the necro and for the enemy.
I think the toughness of the pets is the biggest issue, and yes some did need more hp, but I don’t think flesh wurm and flesh golem (our 2 tankiest) were the ones that needed it. If anything shadow fiend needed a huge hp and toughness boost, as well as bone fiend. An hp boost across the board would be nice, then the shadow and bone fiend adjusted further because right now if you look at them too long they drop dead. The bone minions are meant to kill off so I don’t really see any issue with them.
Flesh Golem needed it. I honestly don’t remember the last time my Wurm died without me killing it for the stun break/teleport, so I don’t really see the point in that. Shadow Fiend and Bone Fiend really need an HP increase though, and like you said bone minions are relatively fine; increasing HP just lets them auto attack once or twice more.
If you pug in WvW then I totally understand needing the signet for running around. But if you are in an organized group of any size, then it is their job to either stay with you (by not using tons of speed moves) or make sure you can keep up by AoE swiftness. If they aren’t doing that, they are bad and they should feel bad.
We have viable minion builds, and we want another DS skill.
It should work like burning. Just something to caution (if you try this out); fear maxes out at 5 seconds, which is pretty easy with 2 people.
It definitely seems like most people like the idea of it revolving around condition removal (which I think is great, especially if it doesn’t only scale with condition damage).
I liked Kravick’s ideas that he posted in the other thread (although I think the total combined thing was too much, each idea is good), especially the idea of a cover condition.
The secondary effect of the new “dark” dot is going to be interesting. Any thoughts as to what would be a good option?
Thank you for this post.
Ha! This is far from the last time we’ll be doing this :P
no I didn’t, I said it reduces my effective healing, which it does.
Please define what you are meaning by effective healing then. Because to my knowledge, effective healing is how much eHP you have actually restored, which is (health restored) X (damage reduction). If health restored stays the same, which it does, and damage reduced stays the same, which it does, then nothing has changed. Your eHealing is exactly the same, it is only a smaller portion of their health. It remains that increasing HP increase their survivability in every single build type very nicely, while increasing toughness is only helpful for healing builds.
I hope so. I think it is a great precedent (we now have precedent for more conditions/boons) and also a great opportunity for some more interesting play with Necros, and also something that we can do well that is niche.
I know how healing works. The point remains you originally said that not raising toughness reduces your healing. That is not the case and was the only thing I addressed.
For toughness vs HP, toughness only benefits specific builds; ones that heal their minions. Otherwise everything short of a huge toughness buff doesn’t really matter to the rest of us. An HP buff, however, still benefits healing builds (you still heal for exactly the same eHP per second as unbuffed), but also benefits non-healing builds.
If they increase the HP on minions, that does absolutely nothing to your healing. Your 200 heal is still exactly as effective as your previous one.
The marks thing was a valid point; if you are stacking all your marks in one spot, you are asking for someone to dodge roll through them. I did it to a Necro last night (its on video), my friend was actually right next to me telling me to watch out, then just laughed as I dodged rolled completely through all of the Necros marks and went on to contest the point.
@Softspoken, wasn’t that a thread like… a couple days ago? Just bump that and continue the conversation there.
upon further consideration I think this is a bad idea.
The pets don’t need more HP, they need more toughness.
The last thing I need is my effective healing to be reduced on my pets.
HP pool on them right now seems about right compared to the healing I can give them in my MM build they just need to be tougher against DD aoe.
It won’t be reduced, a 200 heal still heals for exactly the same whether their HP is 1k or 10000000000. Increasing toughness does very little, because they are still recyclable, toughness only outpaces HP over many heals. Not to mention that is a very specific thing, not every MM build goes high healing.
Otherwise, I like the way they are approaching changes overall (the Necro 2 big changes made me happy on the inside), although it seems like they are overly concerned with condition necromancer builds (which is probably because its all that is played) while at least not talking much at all about others (except minions indirectly).
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More HP will still good, we’ve been asking for more survivability and HP will do that. If you don’t like minions don’t use them.
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We had a guy last night that had never done a tournament before (I think), and 2 people were only level 11 or so. Not really a big deal to be new.
Link to the SOTG? Also I have no sympathy for the D/D ele, that build has been ridiculous for way too long.
Yes I don’t have a fancy name for this build, oh well. Anyway, this is the build I ran in the all-Necro event last night, and also my go-to build that I use in PvP in general. It is the still evolving build I have used since the last BWE, and while it is mostly a “standard” minion build, there are some things I have here that really help out in PvP (thanks to Xaragon for the idea to use these runes, and yes the builds are very similar).
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBHRhG2IjWpermvG9eCQ6R0UX9kCuBHSxuSD-TwAA1CtIcS5kzJjTSjsGNGYBxOkZIA
Spite: V, IX
Death Magic: III, X, XII
Blood Magic: II, VII
Axe/Dagger with Hobbling/Leeching
Dagger/Warhorn with Bloodlust/Leeching
4x Rune of Vampirism
2x Rune of Melandru
Soldier Amulet/Jewel
Consume Conditions
Bone Minions
Bone Fiend
Flesh Wurm
Flesh Golem
The basic idea of this build is to give protection to home point, while being able to help out teamfights mid if necessary, by using the strong survivability/damage/control of the build. It is very strong in 1v1/2v2, and with proper management you can still do very nicely in larger fights.
Why the specific loadout I have?
I took the minion traits for obvious reasons (except Necromatic Corruption, which I’ll explain later), damage/health/CD reduction/siphoning are all great and help the build.
The Adept in Spite was chosen because retaliation does nice damage in this build (up to 3439 power), and because the rest were basically useless.
Blood Magic’s 50% better siphoning was taken to make the minions/my siphoning better.
Necromatic Corruption was taken because of the boon heavy meta, and because I didn’t want my focus anymore but needed the boon removal.
Dagger/Warhorn is there for the damage/LF dagger gives, the control it gives me (you need that daze sometimes) and the swiftness to get around the map. One sigil gives me 975 health per swap, the other gives me more power for higher ret procs and a bit more damage.
Axe/Dagger is there for the longer range option when I can’t get all up in their face, it also gives decent damage plus cripple/retaliation. The dagger is because conditions really hurt this build, and consume conditions isn’t always up. This allows me to pass off a few conditions while I wait for consume to come back up. The weakness is also really nice. Sigils are there to keep cripples going strong (I’m thinking of swapping this out for something, just not sure what yet), and leeching for same as above.
Skills are pretty obvious. Consume conditions is amazing, and has a short CD for the 4 set proc. Bone minion damage is incredible, bone fiend’s damage+cripple+near flawless AI, Flesh Wurm’s teleport and good damage, and then Flesh Golem is just a beast in general. With perfect conditions, there will be 2.3 minion attacks per second, 262 siphoning per second, 1.8-1.9k DPS, and a 23% chance to remove a boon per second, or one boon every 4.3 seconds.
The reason for all the leeching is (something I think Xaragon talked about in his build), not only do you have 4 sources of a 975 heal, but those heals also do damage. That means when you proc that 975 siphon, it is a 975 “true damage” (ignores armor) hit. Along with the high control/“burst” you get with a full CC chain with Charge+Putrid Explosion, you are having small extra bursts from those siphon hits.
I’ll be uploading all the recorded tPvP footage I took with this build later.
Questions/comments/suggestions/flames are welcome.
We are fine in PvP. The main thing we are lacking is mobility, other than that we are in a pretty nice place overall.
I’m just waiting for everyone to notice the couple of times I had minions sitting around watching me do all the hard work.
I see what you all mean about the mesmer probably just being frustrated and biased toward his class, but i’d like to emphasize the fact that it wasnt just him that has commented negatively about fear. Also, though it might not be considered “broken” it might still be considered “cheap” considering its damage potential and availability. It leads me to wonder how people would react on a “How do you feel about Necro fearing” thread on the Spvp forum (maybe even WvW but i have little to no knowledge about it).
It is the same for every build. Play a few tournaments with a 100b warrior and you’ll see something similar. It is an incredibly easy build to counter, yet because it takes skill and thought to counter, most people don’t. So you’ll watch this super glassy warrior charge into a team, instantly down 2 people, and then fly off to god-knows-where while his team cleans up and /m is full of QQing. It doesn’t mean they are far too strong in PvP, it just means it is a strong build.
Basically, take it this way, if people aren’t complaining about you or your build, then you aren’t playing well enough yet.
That was definitely the best we’ve done so far. Those losses were mainly to coordinated mid level teams (20s-30s) and at least one of our guys had never done this before. I’ll get the videos out to Bas, along with the audio recording.
Edit: as a side note the video will also serve as a perfect way for everyone to tell me how bad minions are and how bad I am at PvP. Especially since I had a friend sitting next to me the entire time half-coaching me.
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HAHAHHAHAHHA a Mesmer complained about you being broken and messes with balance? Yeah, go ahead and ignore him. Fear is obviously strong because it is both a CC and a high damage condition, but it is far from a broken mechanic. Don’t worry about him.
I agree with you about dependence on kiting and positioning, but as a necro you have pretty much 0 mobility in most of the better builds making kiting extremely difficult (by comparison to other classes) and making repositioning near impossible in the event that you are flanked/out manuevered into bad position. This dependence is exactly why I feel that the skill floor for Necro is higher than other classes that have options to mitigate damage in ways other than Positioning and Kiting in addition to being better at kiting to begin with and more forgiving in the event that they get out of position.
Kiting is all about comparative speed once in combat. So while we are pretty slow if we were to have a footrace with someone, when you are talking about relative speed in combat, we do okay with the cripple/chill/fear to keep people away (obviously some are pretty hard to keep away if they really want to get to you). Repositioning is very difficult though, because of our lack of instant movement; you’ll need to walk there.
Ascended gear is approximately 15% better than exotic. That means more condition damage, power/prec/crit damage, more defense, or whatever you want. So if you have Ascended berzerker gear, your WoS hits a good bit harder than with Exotic. Same with your Epidemics and Corrupt boons; your conditions are hitting harder because you have more condition damage.
However, minions (turrets, elementals, pets, etc) will not gain any increase. They were balanced around Exotic gear, which means they are going to be weaker, comparatively, with Ascended gear. That is why they need some stat increase when you are wearing Ascended gear, or they (and their counterparts in other professions) will get weaker and weaker with each new tier of armor they release.
No, just the weapon overall. Without the trait, your marks don’t cover almost an entire point like they do with it. You can still do single target hits, maybe two people if you are lucky, but you lose the AoE control you get. You also lose the ability to really condition cleanse your frontline player as well as yourself; you are probably only going to get one player. Same with the fear, you are only going to hit one person.
This doesn’t make it worthless, you can still bleed people or give regen, you can still cleanse your own conditions, you can still fear a guy off a stomp, but you can’t do that to half a team, which makes your AoE much worse.
It becomes a much weaker weapon without greater marks; you lose almost all the AoE control, and it becomes a secondary (weak) utility weapon. I wouldn’t say it is worthless without greater marks, but it is significantly less all-around useful.
I would probably go for something besides boon duration. It’s nice to have (we do actually have access to a couple of boons), but I don’t know of any build where I’m always feeling like “man, if only my (insert boon here) lasted just a second or two longer”.
Yes. It also would totally ruin quite a few DS based builds that get really nice damage with the (up to) 30% crit damage from SR and pretty high crit chance with just a bit into Curses (15 into curses gives you around 31% crit chance with fury on DS) and still retain a lot of damage soaking.
And high damage people don’t want the DM traits.
An example build that I use.
Its not that they can’t be, its that the popular ones aren’t. That doesn’t mean you can’t make tanky ones. I’ll put up the build I use later on.
To whoever asked/mentioned it, yes minions do seem to bug out more in WvW. No idea why, although it’s been theorized its due to the innate laginess and slower server response in WvW.
I have a feeling they planned for Necros to be more of a hybrid class. But yes, it really should increase condition damage.
No one goes into Death Magic that wants to do high damage, so the crit damage is going to be wasted on MMs and people who like staff, neither of which are going to care about crit damage much. DS builds, however, do like the crit damage they get, and a fair number of glassy builds take up at least 15 in SR.
Not every class can play every role in tPvP. If you need an example, look at warrior. They have one build; glassy burst. You can run other builds, but they are just, well, bad. Guardians can run a damage based build, but those are pretty bad too.
And I think emon was referencing how hard it is to make Necromancer builds that are effective, because of the weird way we end up making builds. There is no easy “put 30 in water/arcana and win” build, so you need to be a lot more inventive, and when you make a build you need to really know the class to put it all together.
Compare that to a warrior.I have a level 10 warrior that I take to pvp sometimes. I went into the Mists, threw together a 100b build (not hard to figure out), and went around facerolling people. Why? Because it is stupidly easy to play, and building it is similarly easy. You can’t just do that with Necro though, so you need the knowledge to be able to make decent builds (or just copy Nemesis, like a lot do :P).
I swap between a couple of builds. Soldier MM, 2 support-y builds (one condition, one power/DS), and two variations of a vitality/DS build.
Terror is a very strong build, btw, it just takes getting used to.
Yeah, I think he did.
Well, assuming they are based off exotic gear, give them an additional (slight) stat increase to whatever their stats are for each piece of ascended you have. So each piece gives a 1% or w/e increase to their base damage/defense.
Necromancers used shields in Diablo 2.
This isn’t Diablo 2.