Guild Wars 2

Okay so totally missed the question – S/D is fun and all, and I really wish I could run that rather than S/F, but the reality is that you can’t survive using S/D playing the role of a roamer. The focus just brings way too much utility with very little damage loss.

Guys, stop comparing S/F ele to D/D; they serve two completely different roles for a team. I have played Fresh air ele for a long time now at a high level of play and it is 100% viable for PvP although you do have to be careful with your team comp. ResJudicator was right when he said it does lack its sustain dmg, but that only really shows against it’s hard counters. S/F’s hard counters are D/D cele (You will never kill a good one 1v1) and you don’t have the sustained DPS for bunker guards (Idk why you would try to 1v1 a bunker guard anyway). The thing it is strong at in-game however, once you get to a certain level it is a thief killing machine, you can use S/F eles to offensively peel for your teammates which is the role I usually play. The sustain on S/F is incredible too, it’s really hard to kill on if he/she knows how to kite and use the map and teammates effectively. Another big thing it lacks though is mobility (FGS is good, but 180s cd is bad), this is why an S/F ele should never replace the role of a thief, it just can’t keep up.
In terms of Solo Q’s however, everyone seems to underestimate the power of fresh air eles and I find it extremely easy to go into a queue and just dominate (I have been playing this build for a long time of course). Anyway I hope that answered your question, feel free to message me in game if you have any other questions.

I was actually just talking about this with someone.

The level of play in my matches has actually been fantastic! I’m guessing that’s why the queues have been so long lately, but I don’t mind that at all as long as i’m getting competitive games. Of course it’s boring as hell sitting in one place for 5-10 minutes to play a game that will last about ten minutes but I’m assuming you know this. Hopefully you guys are looking into fixing this? To summarize, the skill level in my matches get a thumbs up, the sitting around between matches gets a thumbs down.

Just curious why that would be? I thought with the expansion announcement they would be shorter.

Omg…. what started off as funny as hell turned into something that’s is much more concerning. What the hell is this, some kind of cult? God kitten …. like…. is Kronos your god that will take you away from this hateful world and too a place where he is actually worth talking about and you guys are his humble minions? Like seriously guys, this is weird as kitten…. Anyway back to reality, Kronos has next to no credibility compared to Amon or Caed so there is no point of arguing this. Sadly your “dueling builds” are not relevant to what this games PvP is balanced through which is Conquest. You can flex your cheesy builds all you want but at the end of the your cheese belong as a topping of a burger. I kittening love burgers, cheeseburgers.

I knew making this sarcastic post was a really bad idea

Just thought i’d bump this for those of you thinking that the queue system is hindering your success.

There should be a way to disable a key while in certain attunements because even after the change while i’m in water there is no reason I should ever cast shatter stone. (Okay maybe for cleave but forreal it hits so low that I may as well throw my trident at them)

Dartanian.9623:

DD ele to SF burst Ele

Prime example but one problem, once you go S/F ele you won’t need this skill template because you will soon discover that S/F ele is master race and no other build matters.

I tried the same thing VeeWee but I brought an intelligence sigil for the crowbars and nade skills just to make use of the added power. If you don’t want to try that I would personally bring the new torment sigil over leeching for the added cover condi, it has 100% up-time.

VeeWee pretty much nailed it, but even if you do all that it’s not a favorable match-up; winnable but not favorable.

I personally don’t play against many good mesmers playing your build, however I will speak from my experience dueling many many shatter mesmers.(Im an S/F Fresh air ele)
As an S/F ele I really struggle against some of the better shatter mesmers that know how to fight me. I bold “know how to fight me” because of the way I play S/F ele, if they give me the chance I will one shot them but the good ones don’t allow me that option most of the time. This is basically how the match-up goes if the mesmer is running Sword properly, I have to dodge all GS damage, and dodge his sword burst. I as well have to wait out his double distort, decoy, sword invulns, mass invis, and possible torch invis before i can effectively do damage. So basically If i manage to live all that with decent HP I will probably win. Of course I can win with a lucky one-shot but a good Mesmer usually wouldn’t give me the opportunity. If the Mesmer is running staff, as long as he isn’t able to out-range/kite me the whole fight I probably have the advantage.

I don’t play D/D but I know match-ups and a shatter Mesmer is actually able to kill D/D eles but they have to play well. They are able to because of their excess amount of boon removal, but yea if the Mesmer gets hit by a few too many ticks from a drake breathe it could easily be GG. The Mesmer on top of that has to play aggressive with its shatters to keep regen off of the ele, you won’t win the sustain game against a D/D ele.

Edit: Just realized that I didn’t type in your format. Sorry! Wasn’t paying attention but I think I answered most of those in my free write.

To be honest Vee Wee, I don’t think Arenas would fit very well in this game.

Suggestions from comments below (My comments in bold)

1. “The first 2 minutes of the game are probably the most important for setting your team up for victory. As silly as it sounds, taking 30 seconds to figure out where everyone is going to go right out of the gate is going to give your team the edge in those first engagements. The 0-0-5 splits, or the 0-0-0 5-man chieftain/svanir rush openings happen a bit too often, and are completely avoidable with a bit of education/discussion before the match begins.” – Josh “Grouch” Davis

1a. Think one of the early game things I don’t see done enough is escorting home or watching for cross overs amongst solo queuers. – SobeSoul.6910

2. “Downed state is for newbs! Get good moobs!
Wahoo! Bye frands!” – VeeWee 2015
Down-state is for noobs frends

3. “Play against the opposing team but also play your team.
Don’t try to be stubborn about where you go, how you rotate. Just react to what your team is doing, it can ease your saltiness.” – butch.8136
Yes exactly, it kinda reminds me of surfing in a way. You won’t be able to control the wave you are surfing so let it guide you, you just have to react to its push or pull.

4. “Often, getting a quick decap on an unguarded point and returning to the teamfight is more valuable to your team than staying for a full cap.” – Giltheryn.8603
I would suggest this only to people with a lot of mobility because you have to do this fast, your team needs you. If you see that a point is unguarded, you can make the decision to go decap it. The reason I only say decap is because for times sake, it takes roughly 5 seconds to decap a point, but about an additional 10 seconds to fully cap it. That is way to long for you to be away from the fight.

5. “11: Keep a short, simple plan copied on your clipboard. E.g. “1-3-1. I will go home, who wants mid? Who wants far?” Paste and send it after all your teammates load, but before the game begins. This will spark a discussion as to who is going where. Even if someone insists on a different plan, fine. At least your team has a plan.” -Jack Angelfoot.2697

I like this idea, an in-game version of this would be great.

Just bring back SAB and it will keep a majority of the community busy for an extended period of time. You guys can do yo thang and we will be lost in the lands of SAB. It’s not a secret that you guys have something in the works but it’s just taking so kitten long. Give us a bone to chew on for a little bit.

Yes, that’s the case with celestial, but every other build that is not the case.

I, “avid PvP player who cares about the game”, would rather wait in queue longer for a more fair match rather than a quick unbalanced match.

I feel like the queue system is favoring queue time rather than the balance of the match.

For those worried about fresh air getting hit from potential D/D ele nerfs that probably won’t be the case as long as they stick to nerfing the right things. The attuned to water nerf Tarcis was talking about wouldn’t hurt us because he’s referring to changing the scale on it, Aka making it less beneficial to take healing power; the base will still be the same. Also you gotta keep in mind Cele D/D is Fresh airs hard counter.. so if anything this is would make them more viable. I would also personally love to not be pigeon holed into putting points into water, with these nerfs maybe they could raise the base HP of eles to give them other options? Half of the reason eles are forced to go into water is for the added HP along with the sustain of course. Without going into water I believe I have like 12-13k HP? That’s rediculously low for a Light Armor class.

Booms.2594:

ArrDee.2573:

Downed state is for newbs! Get good moobs!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

i get downed like once per match

More like 16+ when Shnicky’s in the game!
Wahoo! Bye frands! (does this make it sound less personal?)

SobeSoul.6910:

Don’t think you understand.

If you are the ones pushing far and there’s 2 of you or maybe you are alone against some sorta bunker class sitting on far and having a prolonged fight while your team on other parts of the map either is getting wiped or has wiped once. Sometimes it is the correct play to break off far point to go help out elsewhere. Even if that means maybe leaving the other person in a 1v2.

Okay, I do get what you are saying, and I think that falls under the category of Rotations. I linked Backpack’s video in which i’m sure covers that and that’s also something that’s a bit too situational to put into words.

Chaith.8256:

Hmm.. I’m not sure why you draw a correlation between bunkering a point and AoEing. What about the people off point spamming AoE?

Everyone’s going to be busy in a conquest game unless you’re babysitting a point. If you’re an AoE cleave based profession and you’re in the right spots, AoE cleaving, how much damage you can do compared to other professions & players is dang good information to me.

Cele D/D eles are pretty much all cleave, Engis are mostly, and DPS classes like thief, and mesmer are mostly single target. But I guess I get what you are saying though, over time I could see a standard number coming into place. I guess all i’m saying is that a thief could potentially do EXTREMELY low numbers because they are single target burst and a lot of their time could potentially be decapping. I guess as long as there are other stats as well as overall damage it could work, which you did suggest.

SobeSoul.6910:

You may want to add to it that if you do find yourself in a stale mated situation pushing far something about disengaging. Think it is one of the more common errors when someone stalemates and your team could use you elsewhere.

I don’t want to add that because in Solo Q a stalemated fight is better than you pushing far and leaving your teammates to all get wiped. You gotta keep in mind that your teammates won’t react appropriately to you doing that. Mabye if you are like a thief or something and want to go for a quick decap but even then.

SobeSoul.6910:

Think one of the early game things I don’t see done enough is escorting home or watching for cross overs amongst solo queuers.

I had a game snowball in Forest today because I did this and pretty much neutralized two of their players with the guy who capped home.

I like this, I will add it when I get off work.

Play whatever class fits you better, you will do better playing something you like, that being said I would suggest watching this video on rotating https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvPb2jY19oU and checking out this forum post I just made discussing the basics https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/How-to-make-a-difference-in-Solo-Q-s/first#post4661508

Chaith.8256:

What you said, and then add:

• Times defeated
• Damage done
• Healing done
• Conditions removed

“Damage dealt” Would just be held by the people bunkering point constantly AoEing targets, I really don’t think this number would really mean anything. Although I do think the others would be cool to see.

Zoso.8279:

Yeah I actually like your tips they make sense. You’d think most of the tips would be common knowledge but NPE was created for a reason lol. #7 and #8 I think are extremely important. TBH I still kitten up on this sometimes X.X

Yes, this is why I like downstate. There are so many ways you can go about it, whether it’s saving skills for teammates going down, or saving skills for stomping an enemy that just went down to rally a teammate. It really makes the game that much more exciting IMO.

I actually just wrote something in regard of doing well in solo queues, might help you out a bit. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/How-to-make-a-difference-in-Solo-Q-s/first#post4661508

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

nice tips!

thanks for sharing!

Thank you for reading!

Lets not waste our time discussing AI

Supcutie.2538:

Balance is relative and has a lot of variables. Some of those variables include adjusting other classes which can put Mesmer in a better place. This is normal balance?

Omg that was so eloquently put. Supcutie is so right, balance is totally relative and that is something people always seem to overlook.

Y’all will just be on to complaining about the next meta, which will most likely be much worse considering this is probably the most skill based meta to date. Also, the meta only ever seems to be whatever the top players say it is… I swear no one ever even bothers to find a way around the meta, they just go on the forums and complain about it. When you lose to something you’re mentality shouldn’t be to just assume that you can never win, it should be to find out how to win.

Woah you make all that sound sooo simple……. calm your horses ponyboy

Ugh this is not how you offer advice, maybe if you weren’t so caught up in the bad parts of it you could see the good things in it. I think its a great idea, allowing people to gain knowledge of other classes and earning small rewards at the same time. It’s not like the players have to do ranked… that’s there choice and I don’t know why they would queue up in ranked with something they aren’t used to playing. You can do these dailies in Unranked which is a perfect testing ground for new classes. You can’t really blame ANET for the players mistakes, although I know how easy it is to just blame ANET for everything.

Yes, as a thief you shouldn’t be 1v1’ing tbh unless you are 100% confident you can kill them quickly. It’s a waste of your mobility.

Honestly it may not be the easiest learning curve, but a decent thief can honestly carry a whole game. They have so much mobility in which allows them to decap run back to mid and one hit someone then quickly go to another point and cause havoc. The key to a solo queue thief is to never overstay your welcome in a fight, because you could be somewhere else +1’ing.

Couldn’t agree more, but the optimistic side of me that always seems to be the reason why I cry myself to sleep does want to believe that this new system will allow them to be much more flexible in the future once they get it working properly. Kinda like an infrastructure if you will.

If you are going to play PvP i’d just do some simple research on rotations as well as a build. When it comes to the conquest game mode, as long as you are in the right spot at the right time you will be much less of a burden to your team. I can’t recall who made videos on rotations but I think it may have been backpack? If someone could link the video that’d be great.

with the two weird kitten norn mesmers? >:D

No, I don’t fight trash thieves lol. Ask any thief if they have trouble killing me

I’m not asking for better dueling mechanics against other zerkers

I can take thieves just fine

Obviously I don’t want it to be OP, and I do agree with some of the changes that I offered damage shaving would be required. Don’t I’m doing all this to make it OP, I’m simply saying what adjustments i’d like to see. I realize that if I am given two choco chip cookies, I will have to offer up some of my oreos.

Ugh, Sigil of nullification is horrid lol. I should have said that in my post i guess.

Hamster.4861:

However, PvP is only loosely about getting ganks, the primary focus is point control, which is why Celestial D/D eles have an advantage over you. I’ve fought a fair number of cele eles while roaming and all i can really say is that there’s a big difference when there’s no point to stand on. For the same reasons hambow is not really in the the wvw roaming meta.

FGS should give you what you need in terms of mobility to GTFO. I’m not really sure what else you would want or need to make it a viable DPS and gank in PVP

The reason why S/F ele isn’t viable is because thieves and Mesmers just do a much better job in that place. Thieves have more roam ability offering fast +1’s while having boon strip and high burst, while mesmers have a crazy amount of boon strip and potential burst with some good mobility. All that S/F has is really high burst dmg, and decent mobility, with no boon strip (Boon strip imo is really important in this meta for the zerkers to have).

Lupanic.6502:

Do you think this is what pvp needs? A class that destroy everything in 1vs1?
A d/d cele ele can 1v1 almost any class. So why do we need a second build doing this?

When I say that I can 1v1 any class, it doesn’t mean I have the advantage. I just have the potential too through outplaying mechanisms. That’s my main attraction to Fresh air is that I have so many option for combos that it can really show off your knowledge and skill of the class.

Woah that could be like a guild hall? Like the guilds arena? idk sounds cool

I personally think the only thing holding S/F eles back is there lack of boon strip, and their inability to keep up with thieves mobility. They are also very suceptible to focus fire due to their lack of disengage, but if played correctly with LOS and kiting you can work around this. (Especially since I run one with air). I honestly think giving them some sort of boon strip would once again make them viable; giving them more mobility is a really tough subject because I have no idea how you would make that fair. I’m going to go ahead and list Pros and Cons of the class. I also want to hear y’alls opinion on the viability of S/F Eles, please don’t cause problems, I just want to discuss.
Pros:
- Can go head to head with cele rifle engis
- Can pretty effectively shut down a necro
- Provides stomp and pretty good cleave
- Can 1 shot someone out of nowhere instantly turning the tides of a fight.
- Can 1v1 almost any class except for Cele D/D
- Very good sustain for a zerker
- Amount of blinds

Cons:
- Very susceptible to focus fire due to their lack of a disengage.(Can be avoided)
- Lack of mobility
- Lack of boon strip
- Having to go 6 points into air as a requirement only leaves you 8 points to spend, and 4 of those HAVE to go into Arcane because you need the boons when attuning to your various attunements. (Mostly for protection in earth) So that leaves you with 4 points that inevitably have to go into water.
- How hard we get countered by D/D eles in this meta is bad

• So, just one suggestion other than the ones I said above. I know they moved Elemental Attunment to a master tier in a previous patch awhile ago but now that that’s been done it just removes the possibility for build variety. Those are 4 crucial points that we HAVE to put into arcane and I think builds would be a lot more flexible if it was an adept trait. It’s not like that would make D/D any stronger too, all D/D eles go 30 into arcane anyway it would just potentially allow other builds to possibly make root. I don’t really remember the reasoning behind moving that to a Master trait.

• I don’t think D/D ele’s need any boon strip, so to avoid them being able to take this as well how about we make some sort of boon strip take the place of the 5 minor slot in Air. Having a minor trait being boon strip does sound kind of OP but the 5 minor trait is just so useless haha.

• Giving them more mobility is probably not the best idea.

I see S/F eles didn’t make the cut huh?
-Shnicky