Guild Wars 2

So much non sense in 1 thread. If people truely think attacking is the right way to win this you’re absolutely fighting horrible people. There should be no way that a 5 or even 4 man team can’t kill you if you are just attacking. All they have to do is kill the doorbreakers. They could do that without even paying attention to the enemies. Not only that but the attackers are forced to watch and protect their doorbreakers from enemy guards. If anyone has been playing the rush the lord tactic from the getgo, he’s not playing the game mode correctly.

Any team that currently plays the full 15 minutes and only goes for objectives and groups up to kill solo people running around is heavily in favor. You sometimes can easily score 2x the points the enemy has by winning the fights of the buffs and killing players. Crushing the first gate is about the only offesive part you have to do and has a much higher rate of succes than the 50/50 lord rush from the getgo.

The problem is that this tactic only favors you to attack at around 3-2 left on the game, which makes it pretty much useless to even waste your time or by potentially throwing the game.

Archers need to be improved to have more use to the game mode.

There should be more obstructions to jump around and many invisible walls should be deleted. Crushed houses should also create obstructions to jump on or around. This gives the treb also much more use to the game mode for certain comps that rely on ’’parcour’’ like mesmers, thieves, etc.

Either the timer should be increased or it should be easier to attack.

Prysin.8542:

I play, primarily, banner regen support LB + sword shield warrior for zerging (tankyness + loot ftw), or power regen ranger for defending, or i play Survival condi bunker ranger for roaming.

It would be nice if everyone would have such sort of outro as intro so it’s easier to scan through the posts. These… specs aren’t exactly what I would call very… useful and I don’t exactly see how you have the experience to make such statements such as:

Almost EVERY tactic in WvW requires ZERO skill and ZERO effort, and close to ZERO risk. The whole meta is built around this principle of ZERO INPUT, MAX OUTPUT. So naturally this will be a popular tactic.

Meh I’m not that hyped up for Illusionary inspiration since it will most likely be 45 sec icd and it activates pretty unexpected that way besides for the first time. This would mean you need to build up a good amount of boons before being able to cast a phantasm, unless you will have to wait 45 seconds to benifit from it. That means you will need to wait for your i-shield till you have good amount of boons. I also think that the phantasm will die 50% of the time with re-spawning on shatter due.. well.. aoe in a team fight.

Kinda the reasons I heavily dislike how they treated inspiration… again. A supportive class needs to be very good at it, at literally every part of it, to be as good as kinda any other class. This is because getting support is already so easy to gain as in boon stacking. So if boon stacking is already quite easy, healing is a big part of the support role. And once healing is being left out because of scaling you just remain with a decent support role, which is not effective enough.

MailMail.6534:

I think the chronomancer line will work wonderfully with Inspiration and Chaos!! Support Shatter Mesmers will be a real thing. Boons on boons and ton of alacrity & condition clears!

I’ll definitely be trying it out as one of my first builds!

But is that because chronomancer sounds so incredible strong (and chaos of course) or because you actually think inspiration has a good synergy along with it making it as powerful as other specializations? Because going full support isn’t exactly what’s needed lately due the easy access to healings and boons while still dealing average/good damage (aka celestial).

The only really good synergy I see is the amount of quickness you get from the shield, making it more likely to get your mantra’s off increasing your aoe healing by a lot. The only problem I’m seeing here now is still the problem I have stated in the OP: healing power scaling.
I also hope they don’t screw up the well with bad scaling, because that would mean a support/heal mesmer is never gonna be worth running, but rather a mix of dps and support.

ODB.6891:

Ansau.7326:

…
Well of Eternity (healing) would also be good if it was a water field.
Well of Recall (Alacrity) and Well of Precognition (Unblockable attacks) have way too long CD’s for what they do.
…
I expect a trait that makes Wells 1200 range and grant 1 extra pulse. If we compare them with Necro’s wells, these are really a bad version of them.

This^ …especially the water field idea for Well of Eternity.
We also need a blast finisher on a 1h weapon besides torch.

+1
Makes no sense as light field if they wanna remove the whole retaliation idea for mesmer and it doesn’t fit the skill.

I’m no PvE hero, but why wouldn’t shield be amazing for pve? You precast the shield, allies get quickness and then you swap weapons to do the i-warden spam. Seems pretty strong to me.

I don’t see how opening about 4-5 builds is less and worse than the single half decent build that we have now.

Xaylin.1860:

A free 15% reduction is still great. You also have to keep in mind that you can use all your shatters for benefiting from the trait. It’s definitely better than not using it at all because you lack the trait points to get it.

Wouldn’t call it free if you have to invest 33% of your spec points in it.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

Protected phants: Agree, it should have no cd. What about making all illusions have a 1 sec distortion on summon?

Resotrative illusions: Either make it aoe or merge it with shattered condis.

Compounding Celerity: Agree

Illusionary Inspiration: I asked a dev about this trait and they said they were not done with it. I would give them a little more time but yea, the cd is too long.

Shattered condis: I actually kind of disagree with you on this one. With IP being base, we can potentially remove 16 condis aoe in a 600 radius, which is plenty of condi removal lol. It is fine as it is.

All illusions would be really amazing to not rely on random clone dying on sword #3. Would also work very well now all clone death traits are gone and opens a bit more space to not be stuck with DE cause of clones dying so fast.

Well.. the clones will need to hit the target and I would never use my diversion or distortion to remove conditions unless it’s actually the conditions that’s killing me while escaping.
Though maybe with IP baseline it will work better than it does now. At least currently it just feels a bit clunky if you want to remove conditions with a delay.

Don’t forget that shatter recharge has been reduced from 30% to 15% when having Illusions specced so both condi removal aswell as vigor on shatter is both a bit less frequent than what it is now.

Currently inspiration is far the least picked trait line, which has it’s reasons. You would expect to have a decent rework on it, but rather it currently still comes out as the lackluster specialization. Support roles in GW2 are often seen as garbage or at least less useful than any other spec (unless for guardian maybe). With the upcoming specialization you will be able to spec support and damage rather than only support as it is now, though the support side lacks quite a bit. This is mostly caused by too long cooldown’s and weak traits compared to other merged traits in other specializations.

To have a look at the full inspiration line, check out: http://i.imgur.com/LwCb3lm.jpg

Main Issue:
The issue currently and what I’m afraid of, is that they will just adjust the traits instead of looking at the roots of the problem. In my honest opinion this would be healing power scaling on mesmer. It’s absolutely horrible. You can give a mesmer as much healing power as you want, but it will never be of much use. So if the idea of support mesmer is still to have almost half of it’s support by healing allies, at least make it so the scaling goes well with the traits that give healing power, or make it so outgoing healing to allies is increased by a fixed percentage.
The most important scaling change would be the one for mantra healing, aka: Mender’s purity (New version).

Protected Phantasm
Most traits are based on support and phantasm. As for the phantasm part I have not much to add besides ‘’Protected Phantasm’‘. I don’t see why this trait would have an internal cooldown. It shouldn’t force a player to wait 10 seconds to recast his phantasm to actually hit in large aoe fights when he resetted his phantasm with the signet healing or when weapon swapping to another weapon set. Some phantasm just don’t need the distortion and just take away the distortion for the phantasm that actually needs it. This seems rather pointless to me and should be changed to have no internal cooldown.

Restorative Illusions:
Since Illusionary persona is baseline, tooltip should be reworked to a 4-illusion heal and the healing should be AoE. Again: Main problem -> healing power scaling must be increased. It just does too few for a master trait compared to other traits across all professions.

Compounding Cellerity:
Swiftness duration is far too short on shattering to make it master trait. A fair 3 seconds would make it far more in-line with other traits.

Illusionary Inspiration:
Argueably a problem on the cooldown of Signet of Inspiration. Mostly also a problem that has been going on since release since the cooldown of most signets is far too long. I’d suggest to just tone down the cooldown to 30 seconds, making both the signet and this trait far more viable.

Shattered Concentration:
Seems too weak for a grandmaster trait to me, especially when looking at the competition it got with other grandmaster traits. Should merge with Vigorous Revelation and add another trait for glamour or phantasm skills.

Kanebrake.6192:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Perhaps they should just delete EotM and put the resulting server resources into real WvW. Maybe that’d alleviate some of the lag issues.

I can’t recall ever having lag in eotm. Not sure if it’s due to the design and coding of that area or if it’s being run on a more powerful system.

That’s because the server cap is lower and there’s rarely massive fights going on. Though I highly doubt it will even solve the lag problem by a tiny bit if eotm would be removed.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Lol. The people that defend this behavior are funny.

EOTM is a WvW map, correct. It was not intended as a place for karma trains to happen however the score counts for nothing and thusly most guilds/people are uninterested in using EOTM competitively.

That’s not true. The map is just not interesting to play due the lameness of it, not because PPT is not a thing.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I would consider it just fine to wipe karma trains, even if you do it for an entire match. It’s the guilds like [HK] that make a habit out of it that are sad. It’s about the equivalent of a grown man competing in little league with a bunch of 10 year olds.

I would rather see it as a grown man teaching 10 y/o the hard way why PvP area’s shouldn’t be allowed to safely farm your karma/levels. Like you said, the PPT has no meaning so the only reason a guild would go eotm is to kill/punish some upscaleds for abusing the map for something it shouldn’t be used for.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Wiping karma trains, great, good for the big tough guilds that are hunting disorganized PUGs, mostly compiled of uplevels and people completely new to the game. It’s not wrong since it’s a WvW map but it doesn’t make it any less pathetic to do it.

Er… And farming karma in a PvP map rather than actually PvP isn’t pathetic?

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Also, why is it so wrong that people ktrain in EOTM? It keeps the PvE farmers out of real WvW doesn’t ()()() it? I’d rather them all there farming until their hearts content than in my borderlands telling the commander they need to capture towers for their daily and scattering any time they’re faced with opposition because they just want loot.

That’s a wrong asumption you’re making. PvE’rs go to the map because they can actually farm karma there. However, they can’t farm karma in the alpine borderlands. So if there was no EOTM, these pve’rs would just stay in PvE and would not move to the alpine borderlands like you mentioned.

Colly.4073:

If this isn’t fixed by the time HOT is released i won’t be purchasing HOT….Simple as that.

You don’t need to purchase the expansion anyway to play the new WvW map.

The game as it stands now is perfect for pugging, but I don’t see it being competitive enough for teams.
They should just make 2 modes of the map:

• One that exists now for pugging with a few adjustments.
• Another one for competitive.

Overall Pugging + Team

• The pugging game mode shouldn’t allow more than 2 people to queue up at once and the competitive game mode should only allow teams of 5 people.
• Both game modes need lot more spots to kite around. It feels pretty poor kiting overall. These can easily be achieved by giving the treb a purpose:
  Make it so houses and obstructions that get destroyed actually form kiting spots.
• Along with that also make it so once you killed the house next to the supply you can jump in and out the supply depot from the sides. (Though the jumps shouldn’t be too easy so you can bail out too easy.)
• Maybe a slight hp boost or a slight increase of the buff’s area of the Hero’s.
• Spawning the hero should be able to steal and maybe should even be an objective to kill. Maybe something like a svanir/chieftain. Like that you gotta be much more aware and not just ‘’rush in and spam F, stability and heals’’.

Competitive/Team Mode only

• Competitive game mode shouldn’t have a timer and extended death-timers the longer the game lasts.
• I also think the supply cap is a fun mechanic to play with to have a max of 3 supply, but having a cap of 1 supply first 5 minutes, 2 supply 5-10 minutes and 3 supply throughout the rest of the game.
• A game could last up to 30 minutes easily without timer so the extended death-timers could be 1 second per minute. Like this you could have great comebacks late into the game making it much more fun to play and watch.
• The lord needs a small regeneration of like 1% per 10 seconds when out of combat and the hp of the mobs should be slightly increased.

Or just don’t have a timer and adjust the game mode so dieing is actually something bad. currently it’s not that bad if you die in the enemy base, because you just hold up enemies doing other stuff and before they got to the supply or other objectives you already respawned and got there too. It’s not like that once you whipe a team or kill 3/5 that you can make an epic comeback late into the game.
Currently it just promotes the team that just rushes from the getgo. If you succes getting the first door down and kill 2 people you basically won for the most part of the game. Just watch how easy Five Gauge won some games by just rushing. There’s no real comeback potential once you fail to defend the first enemy push. After that it’s kinda just a big snowball for the attacking team by constant pushing.

Just make it seperate game modes… 15mins fast paced games are more than fine for soloq and pugging, but in such game mode it’s just not close to being competitive as it currently stands. There should be no way that a team loses out on a lord fight within 15 mins if they are just slightly less good than the team they are facing with the current setup so games will always just end up in 15 mins games and just getting as many points as possible to win.

The game as it stands now is perfect for pugging, but I don’t see it being competitive enough for teams.
They should just make 2 modes of the map:

• One that exists now for pugging with a few adjustments.
• Another one for competitive.

Overall Pugging + Team

• The pugging game mode shouldn’t allow more than 2 people to queue up at once and the competitive game mode should only allow teams of 5 people.
• Both game modes need lot more spots to kite around. It feels pretty poor kiting overall. These can easily be achieved by giving the treb a purpose:
  Make it so houses and obstructions that get destroyed actually form kiting spots.
• Along with that also make it so once you killed the house next to the supply you can jump in and out the supply depot from the sides. (Though the jumps shouldn’t be too easy so you can bail out too easy.)
• Maybe a slight hp boost or a slight increase of the buff’s area of the Hero’s.
• Spawning the hero should be able to steal and maybe should even be an objective to kill. Maybe something like a svanir/chieftain. Like that you gotta be much more aware and not just ‘’rush in and spam F, stability and heals’’.

Competitive/Team Mode only

• Competitive game mode shouldn’t have a timer and extended death-timers the longer the game lasts.
• I also think the supply cap is a fun mechanic to play with to have a max of 3 supply, but having a cap of 1 supply first 5 minutes, 2 supply 5-10 minutes and 3 supply throughout the rest of the game.
• A game could last up to 30 minutes easily without timer so the extended death-timers could be 1 second per minute. Like this you could have great comebacks late into the game making it much more fun to play and watch.
• The lord needs a small regeneration of like 1% per 10 seconds when out of combat and the hp of the mobs should be slightly increased.

Reanne.5462:

It is PVE after all

Wrong.
PvE get’s more updates.

insanemaniac.2456:

BlackDevil.9268:

Except for the fact that an engi actually can’t tank that good and surely not as good as a guardian while you can already gain the stealth 100x more often and better when used in coordination with a thief.

no, surely not. of course engi cant tank as good as a guardian. good thing your mind is already made up about that so you dont even need to try.

your closedmindedness is getting really old.

No here’s the deal: An engineer is required to have guardians and warriors in his party to keep him alive while a guardian can keep himself alive already and doesn’t always need to rely on his guardians to have stability. Rotation wise you will be lacking a lot stability if you go for an engineer instead of a guardian.
So in theory, a guardian is already better than an engineer and no one has proven that wrong in practice yet. So yes, it’s quite easy for me to say Guardian > engineer as leader. Go prove me wrong with actual arguments, cause I haven’t seen any besides ’’invurnability’’.

Edit: if there’s anyone close minded about his profession it’s you. Engi is the best! Yet, no one bothered with it.. I wonder why… Oh that’s right, because people have bothered with it and concluded it’s just not as good. But seriously, keep playing the way you want, but don’t expect it to become meta unless you actually come beat an actual guild with it.

coglin.1867:

BlackDevil.9268:

And this whole relates to the topic in what way?…
I avoided the question as it was irrelevant.

I felt it realavent do to your statements in which you suggesting what a commander does or does not want. As well as what you do or do not want other groups to do. To make those claims, I felt your experience, or possibly lack there of, was relavent.

Talking about personal attacks lol. I find it funny you call me out on lack of experience. What guild are you in man? Destruction Engineer Raid Power [DERP]?

Back to topic – Could it be possible to run an Engi in the FP over the D/D ele?

D/d ele is used just as much as engi probable, none.

insanemaniac.2456:

no, i dont have poor reading comprehension. look:
you said, to mitigate leader focus, you need full tank mode and stealths.
i said, engi can do “full tank mode and stealths” really well. but you misinterpreted my statement, thinking i meant “to give out stealths” and not “self stealth.”

Except for the fact that an engi actually can’t tank that good and surely not as good as a guardian while you can already gain the stealth 100x more often and better when used in coordination with a thief.
And please, don’t come up again with these engi commanders before I have to quote myself for the 3rd time…

Flyphish.6398:

In PvP WTS, one top guardian ran a hammer medi build in a high profile spot. It became meta…the build did not change, how it was played in a meta fashion was revealed. Good players define the meta. If you are content being sheep, please continue business as usual, aka GWEN.

That’s like comparing apples with pears. PvP is the main focus for the balance team at anet, that’s why there are much more changes going on in the Meta (which are already poor) than in WvW and also there is much more room for changes since all classes (should) be equally balanced. With this meaning it should come down to: are you good at class X, then you can make it work in PvP. Also a bad example, since medi guard is only the meta for that certain class and not necessarily required in a team comp as only +/- 25% of the top teams run a medi guard.

coglin.1867:

I PIN up about twice a week for 4 or more hour stretches. Sometimes more days, depends on my life schedule. I do not particularly believe in the GWEN theory, I have fun, feel I do well with the fights, we are very productive, and did I mention having fun.

You? As well I noticed blackdevil, that you avoided answering the question.

And this whole relates to the topic in what way?…
I avoided the question as it was irrelevant.

Vermillion.4061:

Engi pin tanks the most, has smoke on demand access, water on demand, Invulnerable and a possible rampage roll to help things even more. Sure you don’t deal a lot of damage but a pin not dying is a lot better than a guard getting engi pulled and bursting every cooldown to stay alive.

Oh, you mean by the fact that guardian not only has acces to a lot more stability, self healing, condition cleanse, armor and arguably more ’’immunity’s’’ counting their heal along with that, it’s also dealing more damage and has a much more reliable way of telling if his melee is surviving or not.

You ever heard of stability? Engi pulled is more likely gonna happen to an engineer than a guardian.

Sigh… in case you didn’t notice, you just proved me right with that what you just said.
You want me to quote the exact same I just did 30 minutes ago? Look at the thread name/question, now look at your reply, now look at the title, now back to your reply. Sadly, your reply doesn’t relate to the title.

I’m just gonna quote myself now since people can’t read aparently:

BlackDevil.9268:

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

What does that have to do with who can stealth the leader better…

Thief can do it better

Only thing that somewhat counters leaderfocus is going full tank and stealthing a lot. Maybe revenant new leader class inc?

Supposed to be the meta/gwen killer… doesn’t see anything else besides blobs running in 1 ball.
Yep, this forum keeps surprising me every time.

lightson.2310:

Could it not be possible to run a HGH engi in the leader party to give boons or clear conditions in a GvG situation to counter leader focus? or would a D/D Ele do this better with aura share and the protection stacking and water 5?

I don’t know much about engi’s other than a few builds

How does that counter leader focus, if all warriors and guards do is the exact same you just mentioned. (support wise of course.)

But that’s not the question nor the topic of this thread.
Just cause you can command or participate in WvW it doesn’t mean you isntantly belong to the meta. The meta is what is best and engineer isn’t in there for WvW. That doesn’t mean you can’t make such profession work, but it’s just not as good as the profession you would replace.

tldr;
Engi can fit in, like any class, in a guild group vs blobs.
Engi is not worth getting over any other class when looking at limited numbers such as in GvG.

Sigh… let’s just keep it on that we disagree.

Well I can’t find ross in any of the leaderboards and I judge by what I see, not by what someone or others claim someone to be. And what I saw is already said in other posts so I suppose you can judge yourself.

MailMail.6534:

No I just dislike ross’ attitude and sadly my attitude doesn’t become much better from that.

While this mentality is immature and shows a lack of social tact, I totally get it. Fact is we all choose how to react to people that we dislike. You just come off as extremely aggressive in this thread… I don’t quite see where Ross was particularly nasty. In fact, it seemed like he was trying to make light of your previous skirmishes.

Agressive? I just tell him what he stated about the distortion wasn’t a bug at all but rather player or game related. Along with that I just gave my personal opinion about the build and the people he was fighting. You may disagree with me on that, but I don’t see how that’s agressive.

MailMail.6534:

More on topic slash off topic since this thread is apparently about power shatter:

I disagree on that. Any mesmer also includes shatter mesmers. I already said before why shatter would have a much higher chance of being useful than this build.

And again, I say that any equally skilled thief should be able to handily shut down any dps Mesmer build in a typical conquest match. Let’s throw an imaginary number of odds out there to frame my point of reference: lets say a thief has a 90% chance of beating a phantasm Mesmer. Just because his odds against shatter Mesmer are 85% doesn’t mean it’s worth mentioning that Shatter specs do better against thieves. If you want to point out the weaknesses of Ross’ build (no offense to him) there are MANY other critiques you can give over this. That’s why I called it a moot point.

I’m sorry? You’re the one who started with the whole ‘’ANY mesmer’‘. Literally quoting you right there. ’’ANY mesmer’’ also includes shatter mesmer. Neither did I say this thread is about shatter mesmer, it was just a comparison vs this build and used it as argument to show you not ‘’ANY mesmer’’ is getting completely locked out. I find it incredible how you forget what you post and then point the finger the other direction.

If any mesmer, no matter what build, would get locked out of any fight when fighting equal skilled thieves like you stated, then please tell me: why do so many teams still play with a mesmer? Just cause it’s a counter it doesnt mean you instantly become worthless and locked out. That’s just straight up false. Mesmer can kill a thief and especially when caught off guard.
I would rather put my bets on a 1:10 ratio than a mere 5% with 10 being shatter. This build should never survive or kill an equal skilled thief at higher tier. This build does, however, work much better vs thieves when both players have low skill cap. Cause then the mesmer just 453’s all the time and dodges once or twice, going into stealth and the thief will just tank all phantasm damage and stuns. Guess that’s also explaining the low skill cap it takes.

Besides, it wasn’t even me who brought up the whole mesmer-thief argument. I just explained what Elitst said. Something you didn’t understand and I explained it agian, for like the 3rd time, to you. If you still don’t agree we can better just stop the discussion here.

All I would suggest is to just reread your first few reply’s to me. If you don’t see the inner troll in that then I don’t know either man. We just disagree totally on all aspects of the same class then.

p.s. if these guys are actually queueing ranked I will eat my shoe and be happy I never get q’d with such people.

No I just dislike ross’ attitude and sadly my attitude doesn’t become much better from that.
It’s like you’re that dude that pops in once or twice to spice the discussion up a little by trolling.
You’re the one making video’s of 1v1’s in hotjoin, that allows me to comment on them. That’s just how youtube works. If you don’t like my comments, just straight up ignore me or don’t make them.

If you make a video and call me out in the same thread, you can expect me to come along and give my opinion. So I did. What do I get as response? ‘’Smart play is smart play’’.
Responds like that will bring up the unnecessary comments.

Ross Biddle.2367:

A few posts up you’ll see me get penalized for attacking targets that are unaware of me. As though a player is only “good” in a team based conquest mode, on a burst setup, if they’re running to 1v1 an opponent who is fully aware of them and can see all their casts and attacks coming. Meanwhile every serious thief and shatter burst mes knows the strategic advantage, and power of attacking someone by surprise. It’s not just smart play, it’s bare basic playing to win.

Look, this is where you are wrong if you are refering this to your own gameplay/build. I already said before (but you probably didn’t bother reading) that even if you get people off guard, there’s no way any decent player will fall for your damage. That is because it isn’t instant and your damage requires a lot of setup to actually hit.

BlackDevil.9268:

And getting a thief off guard with this build is just the exact same as getting him on guard. Unlike shatter, you can’t instantly burst someone out of stealth. There’s a lot setup required for the burst to happen. Not something I would combine with the squishiest setup you can achieve.

MailMail.6534:

Are you trying to defend the lopsided match up of thief versus dps Mesmer? This isn’t a koth arena. And why are we talking about shatter mesmer again? This is a phantasm build being displayed.

No you said:

MailMail.6534:

Also, a good thief would shut ANY Mesmer down (including you), so stating such is always a moot point.

I disagree on that. Any mesmer also includes shatter mesmers. I already said before why shatter would have a much higher chance of being useful than this build.

Now you might also just understand why I think the people he fights in the video are very bad and mostly not worth showing. The only part I liked from the video was the 1v2/3 starting at around 1:30. Other than that it was just mostly spamming 453 on 1v1’s, 2v1’s and people in team fights who just started playing.

It’s refering to the low skill cap the build requires. Especially when used against people who have no aware of what’s going on.
While thief is a counter profession to mesmer, it’s not directly shutting you down. As long as you can avoid the thief’s burst and then counter burst or get the thief off-guard, you should have a much higher chance of surviving the match and being effective as a shatter mesmer.

Though this build is just way too slow on the burst part for any half kitten d player to die against. If someone can’t avoid the burst of this damage, unless he’s stun locked by RNG, I would just straight up call the player bad.
And getting a thief off guard with this build is just the exact same as getting him on guard. Unlike shatter, you can’t instantly burst someone out of stealth. There’s a lot setup required for the burst to happen. Not something I would combine with the squishiest setup you can achieve.

Arathor.7419:

engineer does fit in the meta , infact engi’s are quite good to use in the focus party , the fact that nobody started about the fp in this threads tells me enough

Nahh, only as 5th member I’d say. It’s always useful to have a mesmer and then you’re left with 3 spots. 3 thieves > 2 thieves 1 engi.
I don’t see how a class that is such easy catch for the melee or enemy fp can be better than a thief or mesmer other than cleaving on downed.
Once the enemy guild starts running 5fp and you want to do the same, an engi is not such bad pick since the cleave will come along much more when you have fp vs fp going on and the enemy goes into SR.

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlackDevil.9268:

Other than that, nice job on spamming your phantasm on people who are not aware of you.

Smart play’s a smart play.

No that’s just facerolling your keyboard on people who just installed the game. If that’s your meaning of smart then the build surely fits you.

Ty for shout outs,
Worst enemy thieves I’ve seen this month
8:07 isn’t delay. It’s not instant because you don’t have IP. Clones need to have a target to shatter, no matter what shatter. If they don’t for about 2 seconds they will just shatter themselves. You’re waiting about 0.5-0.75 seconds before you actually press your distortion. Now there’s your problem. Don’t blame the game for bad plays. If thief was smart he would’ve just spammed backstab when your blurred frenzy was about to end since there’s a small window where you can hit the mesmer at the end of the blurred frenzy, especially if you weapon swap.

Other than that, nice job on spamming your phantasm on people who are not aware of you.

In a 1v1 sure. But when speaking about teamfights it will come down to 2-3seconds kills. Highly doubt you can avoid team fights all the time as mesmer without being completely useless.

Not only that but landing a combo shatter on mtd in a team fight is significantly much harder than on power shatter due that you lack your most reliable shatter: yourself/IP. Just the slightest aoe or CC should kill your burst. Not to mention it can be easily cleansed with the condi removal spam going on with the eles, warriors and guards.

You can easily compare them to eachother since you’re talking about a game mode and a certain meta. You can’t just switch out all specs which are deciding the meta and try to build around your condi mesmer. That will just easily end up in a massive failure. If condies were a counter to the current meta, I’m pretty sure people would have figured it out after 1/2 a year. And when looking at what’s the slightest counter to cele it’s by big bursts and trying to snowball out of that.

You can’t execute that very well with a condi spec.

It’s getting quite hard for me to not become to personal with you lol.
You do realise when someone mentions anything with ’’numbers’’ that it should be stated with facts and calculations right? I don’t think a single player, or maybe some random hotjoin player, cares about any of the video’s you’re posting to prove your point.
Especially when you’re making a thread to compare the damage of power shatter vs. condi shatter.
All you came up with was some troll video. You’re slowly becoming part of the reason people tend to troll when talking about condi mesmer. Come, bring up some nice maths how your massive condi damage outdamages power mesmer and what combo’s are used for that.
How reliable is that combo to hit, how hard is it to pull off and how long do such combo’s take to pull off. How many conditions do you apply with that and what’s the rate of reapplying those conditions when almost instantly cleansed? And not to forget, how much damage does this combo deal in 5 and in 10 seconds. Since most kills are gained by quick bursts, I wouldnt count too much on condi bursts over 5 seconds though.

Crapgame.6519:

BlackDevil.9268:

This thread sounds like an alpha/beta stress test lol.
Almost 3 years into the game.

Na. Have any idea how many lines of code there are? Stuff happens, hardware goes belly up, rogue processes, list goes on. Then factor in the public internet

It is Easter yet here is a dev online taking a look.

I mean like how this testing goes. There have been complaints about lag and even lag + culling from start. Now they fixed the culling which is nice, but (of course) it brought more lag. This is a whole different subject probably, since it probably has something to do with peformances with the servers.

Though this ’’new’’ lag has been going on for quite some weeks, if not months now. Just by seeing the way it’s being tested seems pretty alpha/beta to me. ‘’Oh its not caused by X, let’s try Y!‘’ At this rate, we might be happy if it’s fixed by the time the expansion comes along.

No hate on the dev though. He’s actually doing an amazing job by only already letting people know to not lose faith, let alone trying to fix it. So big props to him.

This thread sounds like an alpha/beta stress test lol.
Almost 3 years into the game.

No you’re just not looking well enough. Jurica just showed a video of some skill level that could never ever be achieved on a condi mesmer. Such plays allow mesmer to somewhat still participate in the meta. The problem with condi mesmer is that you can’t make such plays, so there’s no reason to take a condi mesmer if the skill cap is capped at hotjoin level.

Also if you actually wanna compare it, rather go bring up some numbers, instead of comparing two completely different situations with different builds.

Pyroatheist/fay be like

PU condie is absolutely viable at any level outside of WTS competition. Source: I have played it there, successfully.

And also:
Unless this GW2score site is broken, your last game played with the previous rankings was ‘’2014-05-15’‘.
That’s almost over a year ago.

And you are supposing me to take you serious? I keep wondering: why do all these players supporting condi shatter and equaling it to power shatter, have so little experience?

Yawn… How is this any of a comparison? In fact, why should anyone take you serious if you can’t even klick the right shatter, but instead waste your most important shatter vs a thief?
Actually went to check your history of posts and by the looks of it this is what you have been playing for the past 1-1.5 year:
P/D perplexity thief
PU condi mesmer
Condi shatter mesmer

No wonder you don’t do good on any power spec.

gwcurious.6382:

Zoltreez.6435:

mesmer in my opinion the alpha of PvP

the whole class feels like it was designet for pvp.

outside of eles i did not saw any other class that was able to beat a REEEEALY good mesmer.

.

So to sum it up, mesmers are OP? =/

No. They’re kinda at the bottom just slightly above rangers. A lot in the current meta counters them, though they still can be very useful once used correctly.
DPS guards and thieves counter mesmer kinda to sum it up. Both are used in the current meta.

I only used guardian as refference to the might stacking and said might stacking was not relevant for an engineer to take as note what he can do since most might stacking comes from guardians.

For the ele part I said it was no where near compareable to the ele waterfield and I’d like to add to that, that there shouldn’t be too few water fields if your eles are doing their job. Again, the waterfields of the engineer become irrelevant due the lack of blasts a melee can put out. You can drop as many waterfields as you want, but at a certain point it becomes irrelevant if you put down 5 in 10 seconds or 2.

For both situations it’s extremely different than actually comparing classes. With this I mean X already does the job so Y doesn’t have to, rather than X can do better than Y.
Any other arguments used are based on comparing warrior to engineer.

@colgin

if they get insta bombed, they get a free out and a heal recharge at 25%.
they dont have crap melee damage with bombs.
they arent taking up backline slots, theyre replacing warriors because now warriors suck.

Why wouldn’t I use my builder if I want to check how to gain 3400 armor? I should just guess it? That’s so much more reliable.

Vurnability is an absolute joke. Get a ranger, 100x more vurnability = viable right?

I’m not gonna argue any further. People liking engineer may do whatever they want on it. I’m not forcing anyone to not play it, I’m just saying it’s not as good as the current meta. If you disagree, I would love to challenge your guild to come GvG us, TA, and show us how good it works, or at least upload some footage of these ’’glorious’’ engineer plays. Otherwise I will not change my opinion about engineer.

@Zettsumei
Thank you. At least someone reads before commenting.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Honestly, It seems to me the problem is that you arguing out of a complete lack of knowledge. You made it quite clear you have no experience playing one. Yet you actually believe you can argue against the virtues of it.

No I’m looking at the facts what a class can do and what it can’t. With that I took the 2 builds you linked and compared them. These responses you’re giving to me are quite leading towards personal attack so might wanna tone it down a little will ya.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Too slow? You mean with the 1500 range leap of Super Speed + Rocket Boots? Unlimited swiftness with speedy kits? Acid bomb leap?

The way you said slick shoes would work, is by using rocket boots + super speed into the enemy and then use your slick shoes. What are you supposed to use to get out? Acid bomb? That’s gonna be very unreliable. Any decent focus party will snipe you in seconds the moment you do that, not to mention that they should already kill that 75% hp before you even activated your slick shoes. Also you will not have any stability with that build the moment you jump in with rocket boots since guards use their stab 1 once they engage, which is after you jumped in. So yeah, 50/50 you will get stuck against any decent guild.

Any frontline class has perm swiftness. That doesn’t count towards your mobility compared to other classes.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Neither does any other profession besides warrior. Guess in your argument it is go warrior or go home.
We do have ‘’Toss Elixir R’’

Well you’re the one saying it should/could replace warrior, not me. So with that I will compare warrior to engineer. That gives me enough reason to include banner into the arguments.

You’re not using that skill in the build, so why even mention it? It’s also absolutely horrible next to banner.

dancingmonkey.4902:

We don’t have stability?
‘’Toss elixir B’’
Are you sure you actually know what an engineer is?

You’re not using that skill in your build and the stab is very poor and stripped off in just a matter of seconds. Not worth mentioning either.

BlackDevil.9268:

5. If you get immobilized mid-slick shoes you’re wasting a 36 seconds cd since you have no condi removal.

dancingmonkey.4902:

You poor poor, uninformed back liner you.

Such arguments used here… Much wow…
You don’t have any reliable instant condition removal. Don’t tell me you actually are able to avoid all immobilizes cause I’m sure my guild would love to show you and your engineer guild you can’t.

BlackDevil.9268:

6. If you get caught by immob you’re practically dead.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Any other class isn’t? You really think engineer is less equipped to get out then any other profession?

Nope, any other class can easily get out or just use one of their 2/3 immunities to outlast the immobilize.

dancingmonkey.4902:

AH. Perfect. Glad you finally admit you haven’t a clue what our armor and damage is. I run a 2/0/6/4/2 build that has 3400 armore 26000 hp. 1400 AoE auto attack damage. on bomb kit, AoE blind (and smoke field) on bomb kit. 2 water fields. Fire fields. 5 blast finishers.

3400 armor… What are you fighting to deal 1400 aoe attack? EotM raids ftw? That’s full soldiers on medium armored classes. I can’t even reach that much armor in the builder on engi.
Bomb kit? You actually spam auto attack bomb kit? Idk which eotm blobs you’re fighting, but if my guild’s melee would be so slow to even get hit by your auto attack bomb kit I would instantly delete my game.

dancingmonkey.4902:

So 2 AoE water fields, and AoE condition removal Are selfish? AoE might stacking is selfish? AoE debuffs, such as invulnerability are selfish?

The water fields are okish, something you also gain from eles and far longer/better.
The aoe might stacking is a joke right? Cause I’m pretty sure the might stacking you mean, is by laying down a fire field and then blasting it. Something an ele + warrior can do aswell. Not only that but the most might stacking in WvW comes from empowers, which is related to guardian.

Aoe debuffs -> aoe invurnability ??
Invurnability is a buff
Since when can an engi give allies invurnability?

Of course they are aware of the problem. Just by them telling us that the servers are not good enough to keep up with all the actions going on is not gonna help us much. Rather, they would admitt the problem is at their side, resulting into more people leaving the game due that they will lose faith in the company. Not something arenanet would want.

I would just wait till the expansion if I were you. Don’t think they will optimise a lot of things with the current borderlands at the moment but rather just try to optimise the peformances with the new borderland.

insanemaniac.2456:

BlackDevil.9268:

insanemaniac.2456:

if they get insta bombed, they get a free out and a heal recharge at 25%.
they dont have crap melee damage with bombs.
they arent taking up backline slots, theyre replacing warriors because now warriors suck.

Yes warriors totally suck.
They can only deal good CC bombs, good immobilizes and banners.
And what melee train do you expect to come after the engies? 6 guardians? Yeah massive bomb lol.

your typical warrior is what… this? watch this replace it. because slick shoes doesnt have a target limit.

1. Engineer is far too slow. You need leaps to get into the enemy and leaps to get out, else bombing them will be far too obvious and will just result into the enemy melee leaping in your backline, killing 2 and getting out before you could even reach them.
2. You don’t have banners.
3. You don’t have stability
4. Slick shoes is on yourself, meaning you have to be on the enemy melee to actually hit it.
5. If you get immobilized mid-slick shoes you’re wasting a 36 seconds cd since you have no condi removal.
6. If you get caught by immob you’re practically dead.
7. You have far lower armor than a warrior, so you gotta compensate for that defensive loss, meaning you will have to reduce your damage. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if your damage is kitten.

Overall the build is very selfish and has no team support. It might work vs blobs, but that’s possible on arguably any class.

I’m very aware of how slick shoes work and also very aware of how things in theory can sound amazing, but just don’t work because people aren’t that dumb to fall for it.

p.s. I’m not trying to get you off your idea. If you think it can work, go for it man. I actually would love to see the gameplay of it as it’s probably pretty fun to watch.