Guild Wars 2

Sleel.8365:

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Because my gear is none of your frigging business.

So much this. I play my way, how you think I should is completely irrelevant. You didn’t pay for my copy of the game or my connection.

The difference between you folks in the Against /Inspect crowd and those of us in the For crowd: I want you to be able to play your way! In your own groups! It’s unfortunate that you don’t extend the same courtesy to us.

Last few weeks I was seeing more and more warriors bring GS and Longbow. Maybe they’re finally accepting as a group that GS to burst then Axe/Mace is the best way to go.

Behellagh.1468:

snip

Thank you for the actual contribution! Always nice to see the math.

To anyone else still thinking about testing, I think we have enough data showing (most likely) a .5 return rate. I wouldn’t throw away any more money just to prove the point, especially with John Smith most likely working diligently on it.

I would, however, still like to see BLSK results with exotics. XD

Dumb Woob.9415:

Pretty much this. Without doing the math, I’m willing to bet you could conclude there is some statistically significant difference in ecto salvage yield per item (with alpha being 0.05, for the sake of defining one) with a sample of just 20 or so. This is because we can use the fact that each salvage is an independent and identically distributed event to take advantage of one of the most powerful concepts in inferential statistics: the Central Limit Theorem.

Samples of a couple of thousand are often used to make estimates of things like national-level opinions, but in these cases there are a ton of variables to deal with, making a large sample necessary to minimize sampling error—ensuring that your sample is indeed a representative of the population. Here, though, each rare is exactly the same as all the others (for the purposes of salvaging ectos), meaning there aren’t any other variables to control for in the population—making relatively small samples illustrative of any change (especially if the change is a large one, like how we have observed).

Yup, exactly.

For anyone wanting to learn more about the cool stats stuff described by Dumb Womb and Geotherma, I’d suggest this as a nice starting point: https://www.khanacademy.org/math/probability

shimmerless.4560:

I’m not being mean but 100 isn’t even close to a statistically valid sample (~1000 is a bare minimum, and 2000+ is ideal). RNG really can just be that bad sometimes, especially since it’s not ‘truly’ random and discrepancies can creep in due to the server clock.

While the overall possibility of a change can’t be completely ruled out, it wouldn’t make any sense for it to be directly linked to a jump in TP prices. Luxury goods like ectos don’t move fast enough for the hike to be caused by a supply run. It’s either hoarding or a bank panic (or both).

Please explain, using confidence intervals and levels, why 100 salvages isn’t a valid sample size to determine probability of ecto returns. Show the math, please.

Kopipoki.3542:

I never said people shouldn’t play efficiently what I said was they shouldn’t try to maximize efficiency. There comes a point where trying to be more efficient detracts from enjoyment.

For you. Don’t tell me how to play or what’s fun for me.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

No, I don’t care to group with Elitists, but I don’t care to enable them either. I don’t want to reinforce that their ‘attitude’ is ok, when it in fact is not.

Its like giving a crack addict his next dosage. Are you an addict no? So it doesn’t affect you right? Wrong.

You don’t hand someone trying to commit suicide a gun or a razor blade.

You don’t enable the behavior that you are trying to reduce/get rid of.

Why can’t you let us play the way we want to play? You won’t be in our groups, we won’t bother you in map chat, in fact you’ll only ever glimpse us as we pass by each other in Lion’s Arch. Why do you have to be so controlling?

People against /inspect: What percentage of the player base do you think would actually begin kicking you out of dungeons for not bringing full DPS gear and builds?

I feel like the Against team would place that percentage far above 50%, while personally I believe it’s more like 10-20%. And as has been stated already several times, you don’t want to play with those 10-20% of players anyway, so why would this hurt you?

John Smith.4610:

Hello everyone, I’ll look into this and get back to you.

John Smith.4610:

Just a quick update, I want to be thorough, so it will be a couple more hours before I have anything to say.

John Smith.4610:

Hey all, just wanted to let you know I’m still working and I’ll keep you updated as soon as I have something to post.

John Smith.4610:

Hello all, I’m on the case still, but want to make a quick statement. If there is any change to ecto salvaging it is not intentional.
I promise you that if we change anything involving ectos, there will be public information on it.
Some may be skeptical if they haven’t interacted with me before, and that’s ok, but as long as I’m working with the economy, information on ecto changes will be public, end of story.

This is how a good developer interacts with the community. John may not have all the answers, and it might take him some time figure out what’s wrong and how to fix it, but the constant updating goes a long way towards fostering good will with the community. I work in a field service industry where I often end up troubleshooting difficult issues with customers’ equipment, and I can tell you there is a massive difference in satisfaction level when I keep up communication throughout the diagnostic and repair process compared to when I just keep them in the dark until it’s fixed. Jon Peters and Robert Hrouda, please take note here. Thank you John.

munkiman.3068:

Thanks for the update. I’m actually getting mixed returns from people i’ve been surveying. It’s obviously a difference in materials salvaged moreso than the kits themselves it seems. Some are saying they are getting what they consider normal returns while others are stating more of what we see in this thread. I wish i could have gotten those people to nail down what they salvaged exactly, but is it possible that only certain types of rare equipment would give worse returns than others? The only thing i can actually confirm are of those surveyed, they were salvaging 75+ or better gear and that they were from world event drops or random loot drops, not crafted or purchased off the TP in bulk.

If you throw out all that garbage anecdata and study the actual hard evidence being provided in numerical and video format from this thread, the situation is pretty clear, I think.

penatbater.4710:

I’ve already stated boon removal isn’t an eng’s strong suite. Null field is indeed awesome, but the problem is it has such a small radius, or a static radius that people don’t run into it to remove their conditions. I also like to have a condition-removal on demand (like a traited mantra heal for mes) for those clutch moments. Anyway, this isn’t a debate about eng vs mes. It’s not even a debate whether a build is viable or not (although that is part of it). It’s a debate, in its entirety, about the effects of /inspect would on the community.

I’m really glad you said this, because it actually is a major part of the issue. Those of us that want /inspect and want to run full DPS groups aren’t concerned with what’s viable or not. The community concerned with speedclearing dungeons almost universally admits that any random assortment of classes and builds is viable in this game. We don’t just want viable builds in our groups, we want exceptional builds. And those are, unfortunately due to poor PvE balance, very few in number.

Of course, even a poor player in an exceptional build will underperform, but an average player in an exceptional build can easily outperform a quite good player on a subpar build.

What you’re describing is differences in skill level. Dodging the right attacks has little to do with what class and build you bring. Player skill being equal, not a single encounter in the game will not be over faster with a higher damage-focused group setup. And that comes, in large part, from class, gear, and build.

Let me repeat that to be clear: there is no encounter in this game that isn’t over faster with more team DPS.

penatbater.4710:

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this mindset is what we’re actually trying to avoid. I have a zerker mes so trust me I have indeed seen the power. It’s just that some instances or group comps, i’d rather have my eng than my mes (esp in instances where survival is more important than damage).

Which encounter does this describe?

Canach’s Lair is a 5-minute mission that will be gone from the game next month. Guardian’s crappy scepter attacks will be here forever. Fix the game before you add shiny things.

As far as “there are more than 1 dev team”, devs will work where they’re told to work. If your priority is crappy lowbie temp content and gem store cash grabs (copy/paste job on the consortium sickle, looking at you here) you’ll assign devs to that and not bug fixes. More devs on the bugfix team = more bugs fixed.

penatbater.4710:

Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.

The metric is how long it takes to finish the dungeon run. When you consistently do it in 10 minutes with a good group setup, then some night you have to fill out with PUGs and end up taking 50 or 100% longer, you know what’s going on.

The only metric that matters in PvE is damage output, and thus time taken to kill bosses and complete the dungeon. There is no fight in this game that isn’t made shorter by bringing more damage. When someone joins with So Awesome, So Support, OMG So Tank build, things take longer. Again, if we had DPS meters in this game, folks like you would realize how very little you actually contribute to fights compared to even an average zerk class/build. That’s why your favorite builds are terrible.

Shiren.9532:

Every group I did Null with was incredibly disappointed by the content. “Is that it?” was one of the most common responses. Speed clearing essentially attempts to turn every dungeon into something akin to Null + old school Orr CC nightmares between the fights (which was almost universally hated) – just tkittenential boss fight that spawns the loots. Your “fun” is simply the loot, when you are sacrificing everything else to complete the run as quickly as possible, it’s not the experience you are prioritising, it’s the loot at the end of it.

How can you possibly expect us to be excited about the journey when you have to do 20 runs of one dungeon to get a full set of armor. More if you want weapons and more if you have alts. Then because it’s the only half interesting PvE activity at endgame, we’ll be running it even more. I only completed Dungeon Master a couple weeks ago and already my Hobby Dungeon Explorer has filled up 20 times. If I had gotten DM last year I’d probably have upwards of 1000 points on that title. This game’s rewards aren’t designed such that you do the content once or twice and that’s it. You have to do it over, and over, and over….

That’s why people want to minimize time in dungeons. So, you go play in your stop and smell the roses groups, and leave us to play in ours. Stop telling us how to play in our groups.

You don’t want to play with us and we don’t want to play with you, why not allow this segregation to happen quicker and easier?

Edit: just to be clear, my argument is from the perspective of running dungeons, not sPvP or WvW, or open world PvE.

8 80s, one for each profession. 5 of them don’t get played much though

ITT: people wearing shameful gear and not wanting to be called out on it

Also, bonus fun fact: as awesome and Hold Your Owny you are with your carrion/rabid condi build, you’d be even better with a good build and gear setup. The only reason you think you do so well in dungeons is because there isn’t a DPS meter, so you don’t realize how much you’re being carried. Or because you typically play with other completely sub-optimal players and you have no idea what a damage-optimized group is capable of (hint: you don’t get sub-60 seconds on Lupicus in Cleric’s).

You already don’t want to run with people who would rather everyone run co-ordinated builds set up for maximum damage, and we would rather not run with you either, so why not have a tool that makes it easier for us to segregate from each other?

I mean, crying “elitism” usually implies that there’s some gated content that you won’t be able to get into because of the zerker build folks keeping everyone else out. But trust me, there would be absolutely no shortage of people still looking to form up Nothing Matters, Play Whatever You Like Cause It Doesn’t Make Any Difference groups. In fact, you’d still be the vast majority.

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Are we taking bets on a “the 0.5 salvage rate was always intended, and we just fixed a bug” response?

I’ll take over/under bets on how long before it’s officially addressed. Let’s set the line at 3 months!

Dumb Woob.9415:

Now, like I said earlier my estimate using the binomial distribution is a touch flawed, but not 16 orders of magnitude flawed.

It is a binomial distribution when you count ectos returned as the success whether it’s 1, 2, or 3. It’s a very safe assumption that the quantity is determined on a secondary loot roll. Otherwise, great post.

Erasculio.2914:

Looks like a lot of players who lack knowledge about statistics. Little surprise given previous discussions about similar subjects. I expect the exact same thing to happen: ArenaNet to state (correctly) that nothing has changed (which they have already done), and then later pay lip service so people stop complaining.

Sorry, I’m not very good at math, could you please explain how .5 is actually equal to .9? Or you know, actually engage with some of the various analyses that have been posted that show the new rate on Master’s kits being .5 with a very narrow margin of error at .95 CI. If “SMALL SAMPLE SIZE!!!” is all you have, I wouldn’t bother wasting the keystrokes if I were you.

Some say that on still nights, when the breeze gently blows, you can still hear his calculator buttons clicking softly…

CuRtoKy.8576:

Salvaged pre and post patch and still getting 2 ecto and 3 ectos at about the same rates. The thing is nobody knows how ecto salvaging works like are there rates for 0, 1, 2, 3 ectos or is it more like rerolling where you first get a chance at ecto or no ecto (0 or 1) and then you get a % chance to reroll for chance at another ecto (0 or 1) and then for the 3rd you get an even lower % chance [think Minecraft enchantments].

Looking at Geotherma’s numbers, we can make an educated guess, assuming whoever did the coding picked nice whole numbers.

150 Salvages
63 1’s
21 2’s
25 3’s
109 Ecto Successes
180 Total Ectos

Let’s make some simple assumptions: first, there is a .75 chance for “ecto success” when salvaging. Then, there’s another loot roll afterwards for the number, with a .6 chance of it being 1, .2 for 2 and .2 for 3. For 150 salvages, this estimation would give us

150 salvages | 112.5 successes | 67.5 × 1 | 22.5 × 2 | 22.5 X 3 | 180 total ectos | 1.2 total rate

Pretty close to Geotherma’s observed returns. It would make sense to have 2 separate loot rolls, and to use nice whole numbers like that. I tried to make a similar guess for the master’s kits, but using a .5 initial success rate instead of .75. Unfortunately I couldn’t get to the .9 observed total rate of return without changing the numbers on the resulting loot roll, and to me that doesn’t make sense that there would be 2 separate roll tables depending on which kit you used. I would think the only thing that changes would be the first roll. However, now that I type that out I just realized that’s exactly what we’re observing right now, a different roll table for Master’s kits versus BLSKs. So maybe I’m not too far off?

Just for info’s sake, an initial rate of .5 with a secondary loot roll of .4/.4/.2 for 1/2/3 gives you a .9 total return rate. Food for thought.

The “changes” to mesmer GS#2 and #4 weren’t in the patch notes, either.

I’m guessing the ecto success rate from BLSKs are 75% with 60% of those being 1 ecto, 20% being 2 and 20% being 3 from looking at Geo’s numbers. So the Master’s/Mystic kits are either now or always have been at a 50% success rate, but have had the 2/3 returns squashed down to 0.

Geotherma.2395:

MATH

Citizen_Kane_Applause.gif

Excellent work Geo. It seems that BLSKs are unchanged. Anet herding people towards the gem store?

Vol.5241:

Broadicea.8294:

And also, if you’re going to contribute, it’s more helpful to actually include the math, rather than just basing things off of your feels on proper sample size.

That’s nice, but I’m not a statiscian, nor do I have the desire to prove anyone wrong that ecto rates were nerfed.

Just telling people to use better judgment in their analysis.

That’s exactly what I’m saying, if you’re not providing or mathematically analyzing the data, you’re not really contributing one way or another. You can’t just look at a test and say “BAH TOO LOW SAMPLE SIZE” when you don’t understand the analysis being presented. As I stated, assuming normal distribution, my rate was 45% plus or minus about 21%. That means we can be very confident that the true result is between 24% and 66%. If I had a 100 samples, I’d get down to an error of +/- about 10. If I had a thousand samples, +/-3. But they’d still be zeroing in on about .5 ectos per salvage assuming that’s the true rate. That’s how the math works.

I apologize for being snippy but when actual numbers and statistical analysis are being presented, chants of SAMPLE SIZE!!!!! are extremely counterproductive.

And also, if you’re going to contribute, it’s more helpful to actually include the math, rather than just basing things off of your feels on proper sample size.

Vol.5241:

To be fair, you’ll contribute a lot more if you did a video of 2000 salvages.

22 salvages is nothing. You can do another test and you can end up with anywhere from 5% to 80%.

It’s a binomial distribution, so n=22 is fine. Using normal approximation, 95% CI should be .45+/- .21 (from my test).

Use math, people.

Here’s a small sample taken this morning, using crafted rares as well as dungeon rares. 22 salvages, 10 ectos returned, no more than 1 ecto per return.

http://youtu.be/yOECzw1Ac28

Return rate for that sample was 45.4% I can do another test with a BLSK after work.

Well, switching to Sword/Focus with offhand Sword as swap since GS is completely broken now. Good job Anet, way to not give a kitten about your profession-destroying bugs.

It only resets to 60 for that character at server reset. If you got 20 tokens it’s because you ran it that same day (server reset to server reset) on that character. Your recollection of the times is probably off. Not that I’m calling you a liar, it’s just that’s what it always ends up being when people have this issue.

The DR is pushing your silver reward down, but you still get the keg of karma and the 1G bag as a reward on each character. It would be interesting to see Anet’s position on whether or not people should be allowed to farm this with an extra character slot. They said they don’t mind people farming Black Lion Keys that way, so who knows.

Healix.5819:

It’s used like a pick… because

It sounds like a pick because

It was…simply a quick copy and paste job

There ya go.

Wow, completely reused the molten mining pick animation, clinking sound, and just reskinned the lava font to a water font with a generic water flow sound. That is one of the laziest things I’ve ever seen from Anet. That is like, big time disappointing.

This is what happens when you force devs to shovel kitten content that no one really wants instead of giving them time to make something nice. How did this get through QA?

Lightrayne.7829:

While I enjoy optimal performance, wouldn’t the optimal gear only make sense for people that actually know how to use it? Zerker gear is quite useless for people that just down repeatedly, unable to dodge or mitigate damage as needed, and it’s a huge loss of DPS.

I would agree, but with the floor on defensive gear being Knight’s. If . The problem with defensive gear beyond Knight’s (Soldiers, Clerics, etc) is that people will stay up, they will whittle down PvE enemies through attrition, and that person will think their build and gear is just the bee’s knees because they earned their participation ribbon from Anet’s snoozefest difficulty levels.

Then they’ll start heading into dungeons and either manage to squeeze through with several wipes, or they’ll gain just enough skill to stay up through 10-minute boss fights. If that person had utilized different builds and gear from the start, they’d have been forced to become more agile with dodges, evasion and invuln skills early on, and they’d be leagues ahead of where they are now in general skill and dungeon speed-clear experience. I wish I had learned these lessons early on, because I went full PVT on my guardian and I learned so many awful habits that I still haven’t shaken because I was able to simply stand still and cycle my weapon skills without worrying about how much damage I was taking. But I figured hey, I’m alive, I made it through a 10 minute Kohler fight, I must be doing something right!

That mentality has spread throughout the populace and has destroyed any possibility of the general population being anywhere near the top 10% of dungeon/fractal groups. The difference between a random assortment of classes and builds versus a group concentrating on taking only enough utility as needed and otherwise maxing damage is huge. It’s only minutes on dungeons like CoF/1 because it’s too short to begin with ( I mean, 6 minutes to 8 minutes is over a 30% increase!). Throw some actual difficult content at these folks and the time difference grows exponentially. 30 minutes versus an hour in the Molten Facility. 30 minutes versus an hour and a half in in SE path 2. 40 minutes versus 4 hours in Arah path 4. You get the idea.

Fight the Crusher right up near the rock where people used to stand to range him. Cycle reflects if you have guardians and mesmers (which you should) to protect from the Hunter. Save condition removals for the immobilize, or pop them for poison if someone needs to heal.

PUGs just need to be led, although if you have too many newcomers to the dungeon that are also running Trash-Tier classes it’s probably not going to be any fun at all.

Mirta.5029:

that’s very elitist of you.
Players can wear and spec however they want. If you don’t want any vitality/ toughness wearing people in your runs, do not take them, however I know people that do much better in that gear than in full damage gear and I think that they have a right to buy that gear and not be shamed for it.

It’s not “elitist” to try to educate people on why trash builds/gear are trash compared to what’s actually good. Big problem in this game is that there’s no hard comparisons between builds so everyone runs around thinking they’re awesome just because they see a few white numbers popping up that of course are larger at 80 than they were at 50.

I don’t get why so many bad players in this game take it so personally when they’re told their favorite class/build is total garbage compared to what’s actually good. It’s not a personal attack, so just suck it up and blame the game and developers for not having a better way for you to know how crappy things are in relation to the best of the best builds. It’s ridiculously easy to re-roll as a better class and build.

PolishSausage.1279:

Broadicea.8294:

Actually most of the time the skip goes fine and it cuts down on lots of wasted time and effort clearing garbage mobs that don’t reward anything worthwhile. There, I resoundingly defeated your argument.

Except clearing the trash mobs also gives you more chances at loot, including salvage fodder, some chances at higher tier crafting mats, loot bags that have additional dungeon tokens, and maybe even an occasional rare or exotic.

I just killed your argument and threw the corpse in a ditch.

Yeah, that extra blue that vendors for 86c is definitely worth the time.

My last line in that post was poking at the OP for not really offering any evidence whatsoever, and premising his argument upon his experience being universal. It’s not. I typically ask that my dungeon groups do the trash runs unless clearing is fairly certain to be safer and faster. I’d say something like 80-plus percent of trash runs go perfectly smooth, even in PUGs.

Or you could up your DPS by about 300% (note: being very generous in assuming about 2K from you in a party situation) by playing a warrior to their strengths and help the group that way. The quicker enemies die, the less chance of someone in your group making a mistake that downs them and costs group damage output. Trust us man, if you want to support the team, just roll a guardian, you’ll be about 10 times better and more useful than you are on your awful warrior build.

The only reason you don’t realize how suboptimal it is is because the general player base in the game is also awful. I’d love to see a video of you and what you consider a great group doing something even middling-easy like CoE or TA, assuming you have the hard drive space to record those runs.

aka speedfarm groups won’t let me join them so I’ll show them, I’ll show them good…

Hooglese.4860:

I know a lot of people use exploits in dungeons to make them ‘easier’ and quicker, but this is almost never true. Most of the time, the party wipes more frequently because if any one screws it up it fails.

Actually most of the time the skip goes fine and it cuts down on lots of wasted time and effort clearing garbage mobs that don’t reward anything worthwhile. There, I resoundingly defeated your argument.

Katostrophe.3274:

Short Answer: No, nobody outside of COF farming will avoid thieves or rangers. Nobody.

Noobs have a huge misconception of rangers simply because all they do is dungeons. Rangers and thieves are the two dominant classes in both pvp and WvW.

There are alot of bad rangers out there, which is the same case for all classes. Warrior are a complete liability in anything outside cof quick runs, elementalists are too weak defensively to be reliable, etc. There is an issue with all classes in dungeons when they are played wrong for that specific dungeon.

Rangers can do 2 things exceptionally when made the right way: DPS and Tanking.

A regen bunker build is by far the best tank in the game, better then even a guardian.
And a berserker ranger traited for full crit%/crit dmg is second only to the warrior in constant DPS.

The problem arises when people try to become hybrids of those two. The fact is though that rangers are built for their own survavibility, and their SPIRITS were supposed to be used for the better of their group, however ANET made spirits terrible so they don’t help much.

ah that must be why we see so many 4 ranger/1 mesmer dungeon speedruns

And Skady would be even more of a monster if they switched to a non-screwed up class.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

I started the instances on numerous MF runs, and my GW client crashed all the time. The instance stayed open and I could rejoin my group each time.

If I would have left the group, it would have been a different cup of tea. I think the problem is with the instance owner in conjunction with the party.

If the instance owner leaves the party or switches characters it will close the instance. Otherwise they can leave the instance any way they choose and it’ll stay up.

Player Character.9467:

runeblade.7514:

Cripple/chill/immobilize will never be useful when a group can melee it better. Enemy mobs do not move if both the player and the mob are in melee range.

What makes you think chill isn’t good for melee fights? It slows attack cds too.

Also, knockdowns and blinds.

Chill is nice for melee fights, but a few seconds per skill isn’t worth sacrificing 10-20% of the team’s damage output to bring in an inferior class. If you really need chill just throw a couple of sigils of hydromancy on the warriors.

Screenshots when you’re doing a few forges, or videos when you’re doing lots, would be helpful to see what’s going on here.

Me Kill You.9035:

Optimal group for ‘almost’ every aspect of PvE:

3x War, Guard, Mes

/thread

lol but seriously no new info has come into this thread for a while, on to new topic? (read:argument)

Now let’s talk about how to get the general GW2 population to accept that, because it seems to only be accepted by something like 30-40% of the players.*

*note: just because I accept it as reality doesn’t mean I enjoy it. I can’t wait until rangers are actually good enough to bring to an optimized group without causing a huge group output loss, because I love the playstyle for mine. Until then, she’s parked by a JP chest.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

The first Mesmer adds a lot to your team. Second Mesmer can be useful too for morecool down coverage. The third Mesmer is not useful. Add a guardian, warrior ir anotjer engie in his place and it would be a cake walk.

And dub is correct, Mesmer gs sucks and is a lazy weapon.

Isn’t GS the preferred swap weapon, with Sword/Focus being the main set? GS can at least pop (crappy, buggy, hardly ever hitting as much as it should) iZerker and mirror blade while gap closing enough to pull out Sword/Focus. What else would you be swapping to, Staff? Ugh.

Your group comp was sort of low DPS to be honest, but for that event it’s more about coordination and bursting the Assassins, which your team should have been able to do fine. A couple shatters and the warrior doing some burst DPS should be able to take out the assassins with no issues, especially if the engineer is helping out with (I assume) grenade spam for vulnerability. Proper coordination, awareness, and target calling is key.