Guild Wars 2

An ideally played P/P with the best P/P build does inferior dmg to an ideally played insert melee weapon set with the best insert melee weapon set, melee will always do more dmg than P/P. P/P does decent dmg, not great. Offhand Pistol has great utility with interrupt/defiance stripping and Black Powder.

1 example is the Sword. When fighting adds, that thing cleaves and hits multiple targets for 8k each in 1 auto-attack chain + the added bonus of weakness. All that for a measly 0 init and without the consideration of an offhand.

Another example, if you stack on Subject Alpha, i doubt you’d use P/P, because you know D/D does more dmg. If you know a boss well enough, D/D is the way to go.

Each weapon set has its use during specific encounters. I love P/P and lvled with it, but aside from a couple of specialized situations (or when i am lazy), my pistols are just taking up space.

On the pvp front, when facing a P/P Unload spammer, dodge towards him and you will see how fast things go downhill. Most P/P are free kills.

Is P/P underrated? Yes, but in the sense that most ppl thinks it does bad dmg, while it does decent dmg. Thief takes a lot of practice to get good at in PvE, P/P is a good tool to start with.

Heheh, i would love this combo. But i would prefer an empty offhand, to fix the stats issue, simply make a offhand item called Glove or something. And give this S/G combo GS’ two-handed animations but faster.

RaiKan.8760:

I just believe that ANET could change the unload skill. Since when one is wielding P/P, there is no escape mechanism apart from using deception skills etc, they could at least change unload to be a something like withdraw/roll of initiative. Instead of just evading, while evading, thieves unload their bullet. Not only it will look cool, but it will solve some problem faced by P/P thieves and also some love for P/P. Just my thoughts though.

Heheh, you have to run into his face in order to start Unload, else you roll out of range.
I lvled my thief using P/P, but @ 80, aside from a few specific encounters, the pistols just take up space in my inventory.

When i started dungeons, i also admitted to being new to them. I don’t really see a problem to that, players should be more honest about it. Instead some stay quiet and hope it’s not noticeable.
But it is very noticeable, by informing your group, you make sure they take it into consideration. Either you get kicked or you get the chance to learn the path. Otherwise, you will be spending 90% of the time being useless to the group and still learn nothing.

The point of each dungeon having its own token, is to be unique. If not, all dungeons should be dropping a unified token.

Personally, i think that wearing a dungeon’s armor shows you have mastered and grinded said dungeon or atleast 1 path. And grind is part of making a legendary. The fastest way to a legendary is still a credit card

I see many posts of getting griefed and such, but it never happened to me before. I have pugged pretty much all my dungeons and fractals. And so far i only kicked 2-3 players, because they were a kitten to the group.

Players tend to get irked when a complete stranger start giving advice on how to do stuff, regardless of your tone/intention. In their minds, you are being elitist and a kitten. Let your game speak for you and only give advice when asked for. Or if you must, after completing the dungeon.

Dagger has smaller hits, but is faster. Sword hits slower and harder. Against single targets Dagger does more dps. Just take both weapons, use sword against normals adds and daggers against bosses.

Softspoken.2410:

Rhysati.4932:

If I have Sword/Dagger against your P/P, you are dead. You have no escapes and I’ve got a gap closer/snare and a spammable slow. My DPS is also much higher and I can circle you easily.

Before anything else: I’m asking this as a serious question / situation, not as a snarky “nope you’re wrong” reply.

The P/P thief uses black powder immediately after you use infiltrator’s strike. What do you do?

Black Powder applies 1 blind/sec, if he uses Pistol Whip which is 9 hits in 3/4 sec. I don’t see how Black Powder helps P/P in a situation like that. Even with Withdraw and RfI, i don’t really see how long Mr. P/P can hold on.

Aha, this thread again. Just stop, make your own group and your own rules problem solved. There are like a million of such threads already.

Maybe i should start a thread about people who complain about things that can be solved by making their own groups?

Thieves do bring some utility and support to the group even when specced as GC.

The stuff thieves do, aren’t visually noticeable. People don’t notice the weakness applied, while everyone sees the big blue wall. Or blinded mobs missing attacks vs. the blue shield on their left arm.
Do most players even realize they’ve been healed by a Cluster Bomb/Heal Spring combo?

Little things like that and ofc most thieves don’t bring utilities/support. They go full GC, don’t pay attention to the boss and get downed or die.

I don’t have the numbers to back it up, but it still kinda feels OP. Maybe @500 heal every 2 sec.

Alpha and zerkers are a match made in CoE

Just stack on melee and don’t need to worry about anything (on p1).

We are all sure you are skilled and awesome. But people want swamp because it is short. If any fractal had 1 event + boss, people will roll for it.

I keep telling people the same thing every single time, start your own group and make your intentions clear from the start.

It really depends on the “tone” you are using towards the group. Most ppl don’t like it when a stranger starts giving orders out of the blue.

But i agree with you, i always roll my eyes when i see shout-only guardians on higher fractals or anything-only insert class. Ppl can play the way they like, but when things get a bit harder, they should also be more willing to bring skills to help the group.

And there is also the issue of players with low lvl fractals pretending and joining higher ones. I would not join a lvl 40 group if i am only lvl 20 and i expect the same. Yesterday when i was lvling my alt, i had to kick a lvl 12 from a lvl 24 group. If he were an alt, i wouldn’t mind, he even admitted he never did our current fractal before, which was the dredge one.

We should really be allowed to see each others fractal lvl, because ppl aren’t being honest with there lvls.

It’s an easy fight and i am not gonna repeat what others before me has said.
If you are having a hard time doing that dungeon, just hit me up in-game sometime. I will gladly show you the ropes.

IWAY! Gains Quickness and Regen for each downed/dead ally! Kitten the group! They are here to make you the God of DPS!

Just use hammer if it is really what you want, just don’t go KB happy on mobs. I can’t count how many times players KB/fear mobs when i just pulled them all in with my GS.

A good sub-80 with even level gear does not put as much dps as a full exotic 80. You can’t argue that. They may survive longer, rez and laugh at the bad exotic 80. Unless that 80 is downed most of the fight, that sub-80 will not pull the same dps.

As for the real “issue”. Carry. What is your personal opinion of carry? A sub-80 dodging and evading doing less dmg when the 80’s kills the boss? Or rez the 80 everytime he is downed? Sub-80 got downed 0 times, does little dps, used some of his utilites, claims he did as much for the team as the 80? Or does the 80, downed a few times, still pulls huge dps, claims he carried the “nub” sub-80?

This is teamwork, in a PUG or guildgroup, no one is equal. Someone will always do something better than others. I never kick lowbies nor ask for heavies on lfg and don’t mind helping new players. But when people start claiming most teams with a few sub-80’s are as fast or good as a full exotic 80’s team, i do think you want to be powerlvled.

As others stated before me, always expect the worse in PUGs. Play your best game, carry or get carried. Make your own team with your own rules and stop complaining of elitist kittens and ignorant noobs.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

Brassnautilus.2941:

thief need to be pvt/fury build with d/p setup. having p/p or sb on swap according to situations. Focus on producing blinds to protect its teammates, and pay attention to finishing off low health mobs to reduce the dps pressure on rest of his teammates.

This will also require the other players to know how to fight with a thief, take advantage of thief’s combo fields, and help the thief to survive, so he could help them.

Guardian is not only simpler to play, it also reduces workload of the other players in group. People start to forget how crucial blocking and tanking was in 70 and 80 charr, grawl and cliff. This topic isn’t just about your 20, 30, 40 chest runs… We had already been there, and seen how much the higher levels demanded guardians. Anet’s decision of nerfing shield pet only increased the demand for guardians. We used to do fine with 3 guardians (70-80 chest runs under 1 hr), now you will probably need 4 to bypass asura el oh el.

It is what it is. Every class can perform the basic functions of a thief with the help of spykits. It takes a good thief to do as much as a bad guardian. The more guardians you have, easier this dungeon becomes.

Dude… “Guardian is not only simpler to play”… no it isn’t. I haven’t played the thief past lvl 7 but from what I do know from playing and watching some friends main a thief tells me that the thief isn’t an overly complicated class. The guardian is most certainly not a simple class.

I have both a guardian and a thief at 80. Guardians have a way bigger window at making mistakes. It is true that most thieves build GC in pve. A guardian does bring some of the best utilities to a group.

Take WoR vs. Smoke Screen for example. WoR reflects dmg back, SS just blocks it. With WoR stuff dies faster. And whenever i use WoR, everyone bunches behind it, while using SS, ppl ignore it (even after explaining them what it does). But sadly, a huge amount of thieves don’t bring it, some of the few who do bring it, use it to protect themselves rather than the group.

Blinds vs. Aegis. Against trash, blinds are great, against bosses Aegis wins hands down. WHile trash fights are kinda significant, it’s the boss fights that are “The Big Deal”. Aegis also stands out, while blinds are more obscured.

Thieves (like everyone else, but this is strictly thief vs. guard) survive by dodging. When a thief dodges the big attack from the boss, he saves only himself. Guardian uses Aegis and save anyone who does not dodge on time.

Thieves can use stealth to break aggro for low HP teammates. Devourer Venom or S/D or Weakness or whatever other stuff to help the team. The guardian does it better and on a plus side, is also easier to play.

A bad guardian with Hold the Line, Retreat and Save Yourselves spam is still more valuable than a bad thief. So yeah, on the basis the previous sentence alone, a guardian is easier and simpler to play than a thief.

EDIT: I wouldn’t join any of those groups either, their attitudes are a huge turn off.

Ok, i will bite, non-runners die and slow down the run. You don’t see runners come here and complain of non-runners. Like i said before, ask when you join the group.

Make your own group, make your own rules. Solves every single problem, instead of joining teams silently and expect them to kill every single mob. What’s so hard about that? If it is too easy, why not make your group fight naked?

Many run these dungeons for cash (CoF) and others for the armor/weapons skins. It’s 1350-ish tokens for a full set of armor +390 for 2h weapons +300 for 1h and 210 for offhand. Not everyone feels like killing the trash mobs that drops jack for, let’s say, 1500 tokens. That’s 25 paths, some of these dungeons are time consuming. While i do enjoy the occasional Kill All run, try that on Arah 25 times. I’d agree with you if you were talking about exploiting, but this ain’t it.

For the record, the devs are ok with running, the link for the blog or interview is in most of those other threads.

Do you see runners complain here in forums of non-runners? No. Is your playstyle the only correct playstyle? No.

Next time when you join a group, please ask if they are running or killing all. Saves both of you time and repair costs.

I am getting extremely tired of seeing these threads on this forum, why can’t you just read some of the other threads? There are more than enough suggestions in them.

When they kick someone on fractals lvl 2 based on class, shows how bad they are. Unless they were asking for a specific class, but those are the teams i avoid.

So chill out and join another group, because you were better off anyway.

How about instead of dropping the weapon, it drops a token which you can exchange for the skin of your choice? That way, fractal weapons will still be very rare, but you still get the skin you want.

While GS dps is not top dog, a Rifle war is not top dog either. The fact remains, melee dps>range dps. Sure, melee gets interrupted by dodge and kiting. But well-played melee warriors will out dps well-played ranged warriors. (Disregarding high fractals where 80% of wars and guards go range anyway).
But the most important piece of gear/build/whatever, is the player.

Also i don’t see what skills you need to be a good ranged warrior. Because you just stand at range, shoot stuff and let the melee eat most of the aggro.

EDIT: If you love playing a rifle warrior, more power to you. But if you are trying to sell it as a Powerful Build, then we have to disagree.

laokoko.7403:

I understand. Problem I have is my condition necro have no power and direct damage.

So in certain situation, where you need direct damage, “structure or last boss of drege fractal”, my necro isn’t doing any damage.

I had to leave a pug for a better dps last night for the reason. My group arn’t doing well and the last boss of dredge fractal keep healing. In the end, I accept I’m part of the problem and leave for a better dps.

If I known I can switch character mid fractal, I’d go to my warrior.

If the boss was healing, it has nothing to with dps. None at all. The bucket-guy was early/late. The team wasn’t snaring him when he was on the black patch. Or they are snaring him while NOT on the black patch. Someone was kiting him off target. Or ppl go off and die. Or your team wasn’t able to interupt him while he heals. Bucket-guy doesn’t see red circles, die to agony. Etc Etc.

When the boss is healing, dps is the least of your concern.

I’d prefer a token drop which can be exchanged for the skin of choice.

While 100B is cool, WW is the real gem of GS.

No matter what path you do, it will always be difficult if you are new explores. Since dungeons and open world PVE are completely different Ofc some are harder, some are easier.

All i can say is, just do it, learn from it. Once you know the monsters and encounters, they will be a breeze. The only shortcut is, finding a good team to carry you :P

Well…just tell them to give you a min to get the gold, meanwhile take a screenie and report. Wave that in their faces and leave.

I think the reason P/P is popular is because it is easier to survive with (and Unload looks awesome). I could understand the use in higher fractals and non-melee situations.

Dmg-wise it is not great, it’s ok. 3.9k-4.5k crits are meh compared to sword and daggers auto’s. P/P-specific builds pigeon-holes you into P/P-only, which is my opinion isn’t a very good idea (even those Unloads are meh-ish).

As a thief i run around with all my weapons, switch weapons, flip traits and change utilities according to the situation.

But then again, i dislike 1-weaponset-only builds in this game.

I love P/Pfor the looks, but its damage is truly pitiful.

All of those who claim P/P is powerful or balanced need to really open their eyes and test other weapons. The perfect P/P build atm, will always lag behind the perfect S/P, S/D, D/D builds. Unload feels fun and awesome, as long as you don’t compare the numbers.

It has been proved that Sword auto attack does more damage than Unload. In pvp, fight a more competent opponent and he will roll towards you while you unload.

Aside from the other suggestions, i would love to see Vital shot using both pistols, like a slower version of Unload

Seriously, i swear that by tomorow someone would make a thread of how OP bodyshot is.

It never happened to me, but 3 times in the last few days is a bit too much. Either you are really unlucky or you are in fact the troublemaker.

Ppl tend to be ticked off when someone start giving instructions out of the blue. It’s a PUG, they don’t know nor care who you are. My best advice is, don’t say anything or ask them if they want to try things differently.

Or avoid all that, start your own group or jump in first :P

You will still see the footsteps in stealth, but your enemy cannot.

Electro.4173:

Or people so dead-set on getting the “Never die” achievement for bonus tokens that they’ll actually avoid getting into battles and hurt the rest of the group in the process.

^^ This. Achievements are good, they should not be game breaking though. Because I already run into this during the Swamp fractal. Someone refused to help because he wanted the achievement for avoiding the traps.

tigirius.9014:

Well imagine how much fun I had when I went into a fractal once and endlessly die from the human who was defending the front gates from the charr… i was instantly reminded of why i don’t run dungeons anymore

You are probably dying from the burning oil, not the boss.

In general pugs are pretty good, but once in a while, you get to join a horrible one. The one i got last night was a real funny one. It was a guild group + me. They knew every single exploit and skipped as many mobs as possible. And yet keep wiping at bosses.

Many of the dungeons are buggy and some of the trash is hard. But some of the stuff is simply a matter of practice, do it a few more times and you will breeze through it.

The dogs and knights can be slowed/crippled. Players will always try to skip mobs when they can.

As for boss mechanics, you should click on the boss and there is a description on his HP-bar. For that spider boss, i thought it was pretty obvious. The first time i did thhis dungeon, i was with a group with ppl who never did it before. We did wipe the first try, but the mechanics were very simple. Kite suicide spiders, kill boss.

And i don’t remember any description of boss mechanics in SWToR.

While i do enjoy doing dungeons, Anet does need to fix the bugs and balance out some of the trash mobs and bosses.

DD used to do almost as much dmg as backstab. Now use it on 2 players next to each other. They will each get hit twice for that amount of dmg plus cripple for a measly 4 ini. So i do believe it needed a nerf. The skill is intended to be an utility, not a dmg skill.

And no, Backstab doesn’t do 20k+ unlike some believers.

Edit: grammer stuff

I find 10/30/0/15/15 provide a very balanced pve spec. Acro for survival and Trickery for party buffs or for more calltrops for controls and dmg.

Our better utilities are Shadow Refuge, Calltrops (when not using the trait), Smoke Screen, Scorpion Wire.
Offhand pistol provide excellent utilities as well with Headshot and Blackpower Shot.
Shortbow’s Cluster Bomb also provide great support because of the Blast Combo Finisher.
Many players are also not aware that our Venom Elite can stun most bosses even when Defiant. It can be a lifesaver for that critical interupt.

I switch out weapons and skills, sometimes even traits, to adapt to different situations. It is best not to stick to a weapon/skillset for 24/7.

The first lvls are easy, they can be pugged with non-80’s. I didn’t get past lvl 2 because everytime someone leaves it resets. And the replacements didn’t had access to lvl 3.

So if you are asking 80’s with exotics and still fail that many times, then i got to say sorry bro….it’s you.

When all 5 players are at the very peak of their game, yeah, 5 zerkers are fast and efficient. Keyword is when, which is 95% of the time not true.

In my opinion, some of the better builds for dungeons are hybrids. Pure tanks and supports slows down the fights way too much to be a benefit. Damage is always good, but if you die/down too much, then you are a burden. I can’t count how many times i died because i tried to rez someone against my better judgement.

For dungeons i find it’s better to spec a more all-around build, which is very easy for warriors because of their raw stats.

My warrior runs 20/0/20/30/0 with Soldier’s armor and Sup Soldier’s rune. That puts me @ 3k attack, 3k def and 27k HP. You can dish out some good pain, party-heal and remove cond with your shouts. I usually go with Axe/Warhorn, but in dungeons with less conditions, i’d use GS for more dmg.

You can have all that and still be a solid tank.

The warrior more or less take the hits and shrug them off because of a big HP pool. The guardian heals some of the dmg, blocks some with aegis and reduces some incoming dmg with protection (but also shares these with the party).

From the way you are reacting. It sounds to me, that you want to FORCE 80’s to help you. It’s a free world, some ppl don’t mind, some do. You just need to live with it and block said players.

But also keep in mind they are grinding those tokens. A full 80’s team vs. a mixed lvl team spread out over 20+ runs. A HUGE difference in completion times and repair costs.

While you call ppl elitists, some may call you challenger-ist. So avoid the drama, start your own team and everyone wins.

For the record, i don’t care about lvls, as long as they make that min req lvl. Sometimes i want a speedrun, sometimes i don’t.
If a lowbie /joins a 80’s only speedrun tag (chat). In this case I’d vote kick.
If a lowbie /joins a team without the speedrun tag. In this case, i wouldn’t and if the group still votes kick, i’d be polite and leave.

Sounds pretty cool, with OH unarmed being dirty tricks.

Something like Unarmed #4: Kick in the shin, cripples X-secs and evade back. Unarmed #5: Nut Shot, a dirty kick that dazes the target.

Or Dagger/Unarmed #3: Pokes target in the eye and stabs him in the back :P

But i honestly can’t Unarmed MH though, it seems more like something for the warrior.

Dungeons are quite fun and i did the vast majority with PuGs. Sure dungeons have their fair share of problems (loot, bugs, some shady mechanics).

But the real problem is usually the group itself. Too many ppl run with “selfish” builds. To sum a few, 5-sginets warriors, guardians that use mediations just to heal themselves and fire-only eles. So yeah, if you have 5 such players in a group, things are gonna be a bit tougher.
Aside from red circles and some nearly unavoidable things, why not bring skills to prevent a player from being downed? Slows, imms, blinds etc etc.

So instead of running around with a permanent skill bar, how about switching out and trying different skills for different encounters? They are called utilites after all.

As simple as spread out, stay at max range, run when he starts moving towards you, cripples/slows/imms. Don’t get hit and it’s a very simple fight.

And no, this guy is not one of the worse, not by far.