Guild Wars 2

Lol, if you play p/d, you’re bound to sit on a person for a long time – this is the reason why you don’t see p/d in high-level play. It’s not a burst spec. It’s a condition spec.

phaeris.7604:

3) Why does blurred frenzy absolutely dump all over pistol whip/hundred blades.: 2 1/2 second 360 evade which puts out 8*808 damage each time. Yes please!!!

Usually, imho, it’s not the blurred frenzy that will get you. It’s the immob + shatter that will get you.

SoLeciTO.3490:

Yes, experience is the most important . . . but condi stealth mesmer whit a good player is almost impossible to win.

In general, you can stealth longer than they can with shadow refuge – use that to your advantage. It is absolutely critical to interrupt the mass invis as well. Most activate mass invis in panic mode, so keep aware of it (it should be an easy interrupt because of its massive tell). Their steal item also is helpful to block (via aegis) the torment shot. You should be only activating the steal skill while in stealth anyway for safety and that is the prime time that a mesmer will use its torment skill. Also, expect them to hit decoy after they get hit with a backstab. Immediately switch to shortbow and pointblank AoE the immediate area. It should finish them off and remove any pesky illusions.

People don’t like dumbing the game down even further than it is now. I know many players who already hate having the enemy team being revealed on the map in tPvP.

bethekey.8314:

If you have not seen it yet, I am essentially reiterating this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6fVHZFjnmA#t=3m02s

Interesting video. Ironically, there is the same type of concept with trying to teach math.

Except, in terms of math, the situation is far more dire. People have been taught math a certain way for decades, thinking that it’s what mathematicians do, then they step into more upper-level math and they are left dead in the water.

Trying to get people to learn in the most effective way is certainly a challenging task.

cymerdown.4103:

I guess the balance and conquest game mode really drove everyone off (although I personally do like conquest).

I know many people who were from the gw1 pvp era left in droves because they felt anet had neutered the game they loved so much. Many people left simply because they felt the game wasn’t deep enough.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Let me make it simple: Interrupts comes in different shapes and forms.

And to make my point clear: I’M saying the examples you presented are ether not “interrupts”, or bad/very-circumstantial ones.

I wouldn’t fully or necessarily agree with him, but I wouldn’t be suprised if Jumper classified headshot in the latter category.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

For example, if you ever played Magic: the Gathering, even though I have an instant card that can interrupt a spell, I can take my time to consider all my options which is proof that interrupts doesn’t have to require a quick reflexes.

First, a turn-based card game is a whole different beast than an action rpg. As an aside, it also has great counter-play as well since the person potentially playing a spell card will see the ample amount of reserve mana not being played on your previous turn. This is why instant cards are designed around that turn-based mechanic, not really because they are “interrupts”.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In GW1, Choking Gas also serves as an interrupt that doesn’t require quick reflexes or for you to be a better player.

Second, no ranger used this preparation to any serious extent in GW1 because it was too situational. This was considered one of the highlight builds. Instead they relied heavily on Savage Shot and Distracting Shot for their interrupts. These skills were more valuable in a teamfight and required the player to actually use skill in order to time them correctly. Even the condition spread of apply poison required skill, since it required the R/Mo to constantly be switching targets. This activity might draw the attention away from important skills to interrupt, or a bad R/Mo might just sit on one person the entire time not really doing anything else effectively. If they chose to bring Debilitating Shot as an optional skill, it required skill because most casters “hid” their mana bars by sitting in low mana sets. Thus, to get the most effectiveness out of Debilitating shot, a Ranger had to use it when the caster was actually casting something since the caster would be in his casting set exposing his mana pool. Also, on touch skills like mending touch were very shut-down worthy because of the gigantic tell that they offered. This means R/Mo’s, and other classes that had touch skills, had to be careful how they used them. (THAT was good game design, and some of the reasons why I loved the R/Mo so much in that game).

D/D severely underpreforms D/P. The only thing dagger offhand had over pistol offhand was the damage, but that got nerfed so no one in their right mind uses it on anyone other than dumb people. It needs some type of a buff, but I don’t know how they would be able to do it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem is, how can you reward tactical use of the skill without alienating low-skilled players? Not everyone can be as quick as Jumper at interrupting skills, I know I’m not.

I never understand this mentality. I can only imagine what would happen if the SC series took this approach to basic gameplay.

I don’t know what to tell you other than be a better player?

Amaterasu.6280:

You could call it L2P or not, but I think the amount of concentration and awareness when playing against a ranger vs playing as a ranger is skewed – mainly speaking spirit rangers.

It is skewed, but I don’t think it’s really because of the pet. I think it’s more because of the spirits. They allow the ranger to just become brainless. The high damage f2 ability of the drake is similar to dodging an illusionary duelist or an illusionary berserker in my eyes – even easier though since really anyone just needs to get behind the drake when its chargin’ its lazor; whereas phantasms track the target. When fighting a mesmer, you need to watch out for the stun, the leap, the shatter, and etc it’s similar in that regard.

In all honesty, that drake in the vid should have been glanced at.

Phantom Master.9582:

-Rangers(power), requires immense skill in order to simply function, being overshadowed by probably the easiest build in the game(spirits) and is much less viable.

The biggest problem with Power Rangers is their lack of, well, doing anything effective. Due to their fragile state they can’t stay on point and, if pressured, they ether have to peel or attempt to fight in a severely disadvantaged position. On top of this, even if there is a teammate to hold on point, their longbow skills (and their pet) are so slow and spotty that it makes absolutely no sense to bring one. On top of this, quickness (and pet dmg) has been hit hard over the lifetime of guild wars 2 to the point of near uselessness on most classes (Ranger being one of them). So in short, building a power ranger is akin to building a condi guardian – you just don’t do it.

Instead, Anet has effectively pigeon-holled the class in to what we have now. Have fun playing a brain-dead build which involves pressing 1 button in order to achieve as much bleeding and burning as possible. All those other skills on your bar? You can press ‘em, but they won’t make much of a difference in the fight because your spirits are ultimately what’s carrying you.

Instead of anet trying to find ways for spirits to be played in an active way, where a person might place them on or near a point, travel to another point, and have gauge whether or not to use its ability if a teammate is being attacked (by watching the healthbars) – effectively creating it as a support utility as intended. Now they are dumbed down (but now effective) to the point where you just re-cast them on cooldown – making them a fire-and-forget utility. GG anet.

Phantom Master.9582:

-Thief(Classic D/P), requires immense skill simply to function, probably the highest skill-cap build that can still be viable, but lacks so much performance in standard to other classes/builds.

Sadly we see many drool-monkeys instead – which is at the heart of your post.

Phantom Master.9582:

-Elementalists, this is just sad…

Yes, yes it is.

In other news, all recordings of Space Jam have been removed or deleted worldwide.

Oraith.1732:

This reminds me of Space Jam, featuring Michael Jordan and Bugs Bunny.

Everybody get up, its time to slam now.
We got the real jam going down.
Welcome to the space jam.
Here’s your chance, do your dance at the space jam.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Wintel you cant call trait lines to a specfic build type…

Engis (rabid) are condi based right? Well every single one uses power/vitality trait lines.

Its not an arguement of op/not op atm its that it’s a bad mechanic and a hard counter. Which shouldn’t exist.

^ This. People don’t spec into a line for the stat boosts. They trait into a line for the traits.

Long story short, if you have the skill, d/p always out-preforms d/d no matter what the situation. I’m not talking perma-stealth cheese.

Reesha.7901:

Yeh I meant to offense by asking. I just didn’t quite understand why (which Walker was kind enough to explain to me).

I try to read up on the other class forums, because it is hard to fight what you don’t understand and I do want to better myself.

As I said above, my friend plays S/D, but he has a very different opinion on the matter, so I was curious about the concerns voiced here. They make sense to me now.

There is a palpable chicken little attitude in the thief forums right now Reesha. I don’t think you will get much valuable information out of most people on here, due to all the drama. Best to turn your attention to people like Jumper or other well-known, well-established players who arn’t fotm’ers of a class for a better understanding.

You ARE right that it’s pretty ridiculous that people legitimately have such a hard time counter-pressuring S/D thieves. Jumper seems to be providing an alternative to what is being proposed by Anet, and I think it’s a good idea to start. I think it would be even better, though, if Anet found a way to make dagger offhand actually useful again so that S/D thieves don’t just have to sit there and 3 spam with a few 1+dodges thrown in there all the time. As it stands now, it’s pretty ridiculous that any weapon spec doesn’t even need to think about what the other person is doing in order for it to be preformed well – as long as they can dodge stuff. It’s just an additional kick in the balls, or a facepalm, that it turns out to be a spammy weapon set too.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Well, if both teams are skillful, that wouldn’t be the case.

Hard counters remove skill from the fight. That is the point on why they are bad.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Hmm, I’m not an experienced PvP-er, but isn’t metagaming a skill as well?

Like: picking the right build for the game?

Short answer: No. Long answer: A person shouldn’t be able to look at the line-up, of a reasonable match-up, before the match and instantly tell which team will win or lose.

Diamond skin is more hard counter BS. I do not support it.

As long as they continue with the hard counter methodology, there will never be balance in this game.

garethh.3518:

I’m so confused.

He’s not getting a 10k backstab. In order to achieve that kind of backstab combo in his build, he would have to do a significant setup job + an rng factor for fire sig prot. In fact, the only time he was able to achieve 7k backstab was when Tarcis was in frenzy. He’s not making a cheese backstab build though, because they are terrible builds. He runs an actual balanced build. This is what you’re thinking of, and it’s a trash thief set-up.

Thedenofsin,

Actually no. Tarcis was actually running a warrior build that required a level of skill beyond drooling on the keyboard. He has plenty of other vids showing his taste for the warrior class beyond the fotm build that everyone runs now. The mere presence of heal sig does not break the game if you know how to use poison effectively. What breaks the game is when heal sig is used with other broken crap like zerker’s stance (which kills any hope of applying poison). On top of things, since he is greatsword (a spec most fotm warriors would laugh at), he is forced to bring frenzy, which leaves him open and someone can capitalize on it. In short, there are a lot of avenues that both players can screw up into if they don’t know what they are doing. Both players got outplayed in different instances. The warrior build is a pretty balanced build.

Travlane.5948:

[…]it was close.

Lol! No it wasn’t!

At least, make the cannon dodge-able. Maybe make the glass break more slowly – enough to demand some co-ordinate effort to pull off.

garethh.3518:

lyssa, shadowstep, hide in shadows.
A kitten ton of condi removal if used well.

No. Just no. There is a reason why we do not see this junk in sPvP as a backstab thief. Primarily because these builds are easily countered and way too predictable. Way too much QQ’ing going on in this thread. If people are losing to this? L2P.

How to fight a Thief

Note, the warrior isn’t running drool-on-keyboard ham/bow zerker stance spec.

Fortus.6175:

Backstab still hits anywhere between 8k-10k in sPvP, if you are at 80% or lower thats a death sentence, and there is very little you can do about it

That is only true in builds that do absolutely nothing else other than backstab. Literally, builds who run 2 to 3 signets on their utility bar and blow them before each spike. Because, in order to get those types of numbers, you have to have at least 10 stacks of might on you. To the point where, the only thing you need to do to stop it, is put pressure on the thief. Those builds have no condi clear, limited escape options, easy tells, and fragile as hell. Otherwise, a typical backstab hits for 5.8 to 7.5k depending on the armor level.

Zenith.7301:

What a load of crap.

Lol, sure

Keep QQ’ing, it’s adorable.

Travlane.5948:

all that fancy work…nice and all but in a 3 v 3 your are dead. u barely won that fight and this was BEFORE the LS nerf. if this ranger had a stun break might have been different. good play and you really have a good point. this video really exemplifies the fact that thief shouldnt be nerfed ever again in any fashion. we barely get by as is.

wtf are you talking about? Jumper has a good point and posted a good vid. Less spam 3, more actual thinking about what you have to do – this is a good thing. The last thing we want is to have the thief be a brain-dead warrior class. People should actually have to be good at the class they are playing. You should actually have to think about what the opponent is doing.

jmatb.6307:

Guys suggestions like these just don’t make any sense.

If there are specific skills that you’re having trouble with, then that would be far more productive to suggest changes to than eliminating a big dynamic of the game just because you don’t like it.

^This.

terminatorkobold.6031:

Chicag Jack no need to attack me personnaly

Suspecting a lack of experience is not attacking you personally – there is nothing wrong with it. You are certainly welcome to your opinion though, just don’t expect to garnish much attention from it.

Above all, explain general roles, and what is needed to achieve these roles well. The rest should be left to the player to experiment. So many bad plays are made because people just don’t know, or are oblivious to, the role they are playing. Or people create some weird build that just doesn’t do anything particularly good. As someone said, soldiers ammy on a trap ranger, really? C’mon! In my opinion, all other information can be gathered from playing the game, if people know the role they are playing as.

The 3 on necro does insane damage. It’s not just, “friggin poison.”

On-topic: So much QQ on the forums today.

The argument is bad and shows a distinct lack of understanding most likely due to inexperience.

terminatorkobold.6031:

8v8 allows better tactical play and build mixing than 5v5[…]

Lol. No, it doesn’t.

Fortus.6175:

People argue that scepter ele has more burst…

It does have more burst, and is instantaneous damage. The amount of setup required for a thief to even get into the same general area as an ele is ridiculously obvious to the point that only the completely oblivious are able to get hit with it. It isn’t, by any means, stronger than an ele.

i think it’s due to the fact that im always moving. when i get immobed, it’s almost like the game gets confused as to where my actual location is. it sounds silly, and it probably is, but it’s not because they catch me right before i dodge roll.

They don’t interrupt you but, at least in my case, they generate skill lag. Whenever I get immobed, i’m usually forced to hit my next skill at least twice in a row. As a thief, this can be rather detrimental since i need to manage initative.

The primary reason why condi nuke classes are bad for the game: Spam

Here

Instead of timing poisons for reduce healing %, co-ordinating immobs, or cripple, or chill, or whatever with your team, people just need to spam to be effective.

I would add to this and say, you can generally look at what type of conditions a person on your team is getting hit with, and tell what kind of enemy player is on that node with them. But why should anyone bother? EVERYONE can be seen on the minimap now!

Who cares about tactics anymore? Since you can see the enemy team on the minimap, one less thing to actively think about. Gone are the days of trying to predict enemy rotations. What a stupid, dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb change.

Hey guys! Blizzard just made an update to SC2! Everyone gets maphack now!

This is the dumbest change I have seen to spvp in months. Everyone, even enemy positions, are visible on the map. So dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

vincecontix.1264:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHNUtnV-GsI

hybrids can work though wait till you see my next video it much better

I’m always amazed by the # of just bad players in WvW. Every single time you drop someone in that video, absolutely no one cleaves the area around the body. They ether run around like idiots or every single person jumps the dead guy to res him.

Cynz.9437:

because when i queue i know i gonna get skyhammer and can switch runes rq right?

Actually, most players carry a full kitten nal of different sigils, weapons, and runesets in their inventory so that they can make adjustments before the match starts.

Regardless, Trollhammer needs to be removed or at least changed. It’s a terrible map as it is right now. It would at LEAST take a large step in the right direction if they made the cannon dodge-able. As it stands right now, sitting on cannon turns the game into nothing more than a point-and-click adventure game.

Your role as a thief is to pick out priority targets and kill them. This means any necros, other thieves, mesmers, engies, and other classes/builds that have a significant presence in a fight. On top of this, you need to run support for home point and to push far points to decap in a pinch when appropriate. You should be able to handle 1v1’s.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

have both.
play now button for 5 vs 5
filter the game browser for anet’s 8 vs 8 hot join servers.

^Anet, this. Make 5v5 standard, but don’t remove 8v8.

garethh.3518:

dead set on nitpicking

Believe me, I’m not. I just like having a discussion on this because I think it’s important for the game.

garethh.3518:

Differing playstyles makes a different gamemode.

Certainly, and really that is the only pro that I can think of about 8v8, but even then it fails, as you and I have mentioned, because of all of the chaos that insues in the game.

garethh.3518:

The crutches…

This part is blowing things out of proportion, and I’m almost certain you know this and I’m also certain you know that what you proposed -as what you think is my viewpoint- is not my viewpoint. As someone stated before, with the line of reasoning you presented, why don’t we have 12v12 games on these map sizes, or 32v32? Afterall, teammates make games more social, right? So obviously more is better. Well there is a reason why we don’t see this and I’m sure you and I both know why – I have stated the reasons earlier. It’s certainly not because the only thing holding these modes back in these map sizes are the dev’s programming skills.

garethh.3518:

Being carried is (imo) a good thing when you are learning the basics of a game.

And in my opinion, failure is the best learning experience. People will fail a lot less often when they are being carried. They might form an illusion that they are ready for some responsibility in an actual team fight.

garethh.3518:

Ok, live and learn?

That’s fine, but most people in 8v8 don’t do the second part. It’s not their fault though, and I’m dead serious about this, they don’t need to.

garethh.3518:

[…] you’re learning fundamentals.

But this is my point. They can’t -learn- the fundamentals because of so many crutches they have and the amount of chaos that ensues. Step into any 8v8 hotjoin, and just look at the rotations they do – it’s god awful. This has nothing to do with build maximization.

garethh.3518:

Uhm, being with more teammates is better when learning a class than with less.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. Most of the time, a player is ether getting carried in an 8v8, or they don’t know what’s going on. So most of the time it just becomes a spam-autoattack fest on the nearest downed opponent or blowing the cooldowns of all skills on said downed opponent.

It is far more beneficial to strip away all the noise and focus on what a character can do/bring in a fight. It is a lot easier to tweak builds when a person knows exactly how much of an impact a certain aspect of it does. Nobody can get this in 8v8, at least to the same/better level of 5v5.

It’s part of the reason why good players have some dueling experience. They don’t do it because they think it’s the highest level of play – it’s not. All you have to do in a duel to win it, is to counter build. Good players, instead, want to figure out ways to deal with certain other classes without having to tamper with their team build. They strip away the noise and start from the fundamentals. In other words, and this is important, they try to -learn- the game.

garethh.3518:

You learn a different playstyle, sure, but you also learn your class more easily.

Again I disagree. Mostly for the same reasons stated above. People get ridiculously carried in 8v8 and they become nothing more than another number in a fight. It’s the nature of zerg playstyle and similar to a town militia as well. Do you have any gun and can you press the trigger? Great! Play some 8v8.

candlecan.9827:

Scoobaniec.9561:

candlecan.9827:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Health

Healing signet 392 (402 with 20 in defense trait line) + Adrenal Health (assuming 3 strikes of adrenaline) 360

402+360=762 per second.

I am not a warrior, I have not tested this, these numbers are assumed off of what the tooltips say. If I am incorrect please let me know.

“This forum is ripe with intelligence” u just proved it.

Even wiki states

“Triggers on an interval of 3 seconds (not shown as a trait fact) "

Fair enough I deserve that. So the true number comes out to be 522 per second. I originally stated 600 per second. My mistake. I will quit posting because obviously I may not be the most qualified to speak on the subject. All I know is I am not the only one who feels like the warrior sustain is over the top by default. I just feel like addressing the synergy of Adrenal Health and Healing Signet might be a more constructive path on fixing warriors rather than messing with weapon sets and damage related traits.

Actually you’re both incorrect, but in a very minor way. It’s 539 with 30 in defense, maximum adrenalin and no other boost. With self applied regen boon, it’s 707, rounding up. The heal amount is incorrect in the tooltip as well as the lack of any 3 second cool-down indicator.

Coulter.2315:

It really was the flavour and power of the mesmer in one spell, beautiful skill.

I have much love for Mesmers and R/Mo’s in GW1. So many just brilliantly, beautifully created skills. A lot of duds as well, but the skills that shined bright really did just that. So did Warrior. Man warrior was an actual good, skill-full class back in the day.

Sure there was a reason why many called it build wars (mainly in its twilight years after the expansions started coming out), but the balance was there for certain builds. Most importantly, if you had the team co-ordination and skill to run a balanced team comp, you could kill anything thrown at you.

Also, for those who never played GW1, they had a mana bar – as expected. But since there were many different ways to shut people down, one way was mana denial. In response, casters took a low mana pool weapon set (something other than staff or scepter focus) to “hide” their mana pool so it couldn’t be drained. So when they wern’t casting, they would sit in the low mana pool set, dropping their mana pool to warrior levels, then switching to their caster weapon set when they wanted to cast something. This meant, if you wanted to shutdown someone with mana denial, you would have to wait for the caster to actually cast something (because their mana pool would be exposed) – you would actually have to time your casting. Man… now I’m having a nostalgia case.

Peow peow.2189:

i use refuge for the immob, then steal weapon swap and hammer them with d/p. Learned that from lux fortuna rank 9 thief :P but yeah caed wya is also cool

When you steal with shortbow, 9 times out of 10, you should be using clusterbomb with it for a point blank clusterbomb shot. It takes a bit of practice to do, but if you can get it down, it’s one of the staple kitten nals in a d/p thief’s toolbox. another option is to immob → shadowshot. If you are in range, and your target is low on health, immobing before a heartseeker will guarantee your target to not dodge roll. you should be rarely ever using heartseeker though outside of using it for stealth.