lol @ this..
I do agree i would rather have a 10k+ damage weapon attack.
You do. It’s called Litch form auto attack.
5k
5k
5k
5k
Whoever said Poison hurts warrior’s HS more then other classes… seriously?
I don’t think anyone ever said this. Calm down.
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Most poisons last 6~ seconds.
Engies have poison volly and nades. Thief has choking gas and steal. Necro has poison on auto attack and scepter 3. Rangers and eles (lawl @ eles, and maybe spider pet from ranger? though no one really runs it in favor of dogs). A lot of classes have easy access to poison.
Poison is typically a condi you toss on right around when someone needs to heal to cut back 33% of their healing.
Ur right (however an interrupt would be better), but the main issue, again in my opinion, is the easy condi cleanse/immunity. Increase the cast time to 1 second on combustive shot and increase its cooldown to like 15 seconds and I think that would be a huge positive step.
So poison has an effect but it is very minor vs such a passive heal because the heal is spread out over time.
It’s actually pretty huge. Poison, at minimum, ticks for about 100 dmg per sec. Healing signet heals for about 400 per second. So that means 400(0.67) – 100 = 168. It basically looses about (at minimum) 58% of its strength when is poison applied to the warrior. A thief with choking gas and clusterbomb can kill a warrior easily if the warrior is afk. The problem is the easy condi cleanse/immunities, imo.
Cleansing Ire is one of the best if not the best condi cleanse in the game anyways, which makes the poison “counter” even more futile.
^ This.
2. there are soooo many healing skills that out-heal healing sig
Lol nope. So nope.
With healing signet poison is no counter because you cant poison the heal
You can poison the heal. Poison affects all sources of healing – in fact its one of the strongest counters to HoT skills/traits and the reason why it should always be applied to downed targets and surrounding enemies trying to heal them.
The problem is condi immunity and longbow always proccing cleanse. Not to mention lyssa proc from signet of rage.
In my opinion, if they decide to keep healing signet as is, then increase the cast time and recharge time of longbow combustive shot. And do something about all the condi immune BS in the game. And tone down the power of condi nukes. Hell, nerf everything.
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What I mean with #5 is…is there any build (or set of builds) whose effectiveness eventually outshines all the other builds if you get more and more skilfull?
I would say D/P trickery thief will always outshine any other thief build simply because it can deal with opposing burst specs so well (which is one of your roles to watch for as a roamer – other people trying to gank your teammates). For example, a D/P thief should always always beat any other thief weapon-set if they have the skill. The major drawback of D/P is the lack of any real sustain, which other weapon-sets can provide more of, so other sets can stand toe-to-toe easier on a far node (with defender) for example – which is why we see S/P and S/D. Of course, as a D/P thief, you should be looking to create more 2v1’s, getting free decaps, or preventing ganks (being more of a benefit to your team) than actually assaulting a far node all game – not to mean other weapon specs only assault far node.
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Do you see thiefs crying about unkillable guardians?
Actually DPS guard is the natural enemy of thieves. If thieves were fire pokémon, then DPS guards would be water pokémon.
As someone who has played Necromancer pre/post Dhuumfire, Thief, and a few other classes, I feel like any threads that attempt to discuss Necromancer changes always end up with dozens of people who are biased against Necromancers because they were viewed as overpowered for a brief while. People who say “I have no sympathy for Necro” or for Thief, etc… just remind me of that old quote by Niemöller:
“First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
^ this should taught be in every highschool.
^ This is way too melodramatic for a computer game.
with this post you show you are the noob here … seriously … just stop and move on
lol if any condi nuke necro is having trouble killing an engie, they are seriously bad necros.
Get some knowledge first, and then talk . . .
ANOTHER necro having trouble with engi? Holy kitten the bads on this forum…
Not to mention bursting down an engi (with automated response) without dhuumfire is really really hard. You really need that burning proc for this :/
A necro having trouble killing an engi? Lol, this guy…
Also, ranger does have active condition removal. There is signet that does exactly that. Also there is bear pet.
Lol. This guy.
ranger could be interesting.
If built right, it will end up just as a thief vs an engi will. Any ranger not running 30 in wilderness survival is a trash ranger.
[…] a Warrior can still reach me in seconds before my CDs are back, while their’s return fast and doesn’t require a distant target. […] as long as we’re cursed with 30 Shadow Arts.
Well, you’re not burdened by 30 in shadow arts, to begin with. Secondly, Warriors have nowhere near the amount of mobility that a thief can pull off. Thieves are good at two things that no other class can do as effectively:
1) They have high mobility.
2) They have an easy escape mechanism.
Do greatsword warriors have mobility? They certainly do, but they don’t have access to stealth and teleports. Assuming you’re running a stealth build, you should almost always stealth up before teleporting away. It covers the most ground while in a short duration stealth, and (more importantly) confuses the enemy because they can’t just see where you infiltrator arrowed or shadowstepped to. By the time you drop out of stealth, you should have such a distance on them that there should be no excuse for you to not be able to manage that gap. Moreover, Warriors cant insta teleport up to a cliff or other high area. They have to take the long way. Use this to your advantage.
You are describing stealth prevention. Not stealth counter.
What are you talking about? Anything that prevents/mitigates the backstab is a successful counter to a thief that relies on backstabbing their target.
Oh, you’re talking about this nonsense:
“People seem to be perplexed at what the word counter means”
What you want, seems to be more hard counters into the game. They are not needed or wanted by most of the PvP community. The existance of diamond skin, berserker stance, Automated Response, are all examples of traits/skills that people constantly complain about.
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I have yet to read the counter you are trying to advocate.
I guess I will re-state it then:
It can be blocked, evaded, blinded, etc. In fact, the moment you see your block/blind/evade proc is the moment you should immediately about face and smash the thief’s face in. The thief will get a face stab for about 2 – 3k damage (very manageable) and will get revealed and be put into melee range (very dangerous for a thief).
This is a bare minimum. There are counter plays against thieves who use shadowstep (stand in the return circle, while pressuring the thief: a warrior with longbow + pindown into arcing arrow can ruin a thief’s day). There are counter plays against thieves who use blackpowder (aoe the area, interrupt the heartseeker, attack the area where the thief heartseekered to, at the bare minimum you can stand in the blackpowder and get hit for a 2k heartseeker revealing the thief). Mostly pay attention to what is going on around the area.
In the video the OP posted, a typical tell is when you see the thief pops all his signets. The fact that the people in the video didn’t have eyes on the thief throws up big red flags for me – this is a case of just paying attention.
All of this is in WvW, mind you – where the typical player will completely eat a killshot, charging the warrior seeing the glowing gun and knee down. In sPvP perma stealth thieves or thieves that devote their entire utility bar to signets are absolutely terrible builds.
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anywhere from 8k-10k ( in PvP) or 14-16k (in WvW)
These numbers are inflated beyond belief. To even remotely reach these numbers, the thief has to sacrifice any type of stealth utility skills. A typical backstab will do around 5 to 6k damage to a target with full health and 7 to 8k to a target with less than 50% health in spvp.
cannot be blocked and does not reveal the thief until it is dispensed. Neither block/evade/blind will apply reveal and negate the damage.
It can be blocked, evaded, blinded, etc. In fact, the moment you see your block/blind/evade proc is the moment you should immediately about face and smash the thief’s face in. The thief will get a face stab for about 2 – 3k damage (very manageable) and will get revealed and be put into melee range (very dangerous for a thief).
This is just the bare minimum to counter a thief. There are many other ways to counter thieves.
The video you posted was a video of a thief against: Absolutely. Terrible. Players. A montage does not prove anything as editing does quite a bit of heavy lifting.
Elixer Gun is pretty bad. To get the same amount of HoT that a spirit ranger can get is way too much of an investment. Not to mention that the max HoT is within a very limited area. The 3 skill on EG is clunky and nowhere near as effective as a Guardian condi pull. Good luck on hitting anything with the 2 skill. The 4 skill is decent under certain situations, but its nothing compared to rocket boots.
How to fix stealth: Learn how to spot a thief using shadowstep (there is an indicator below his healthbar). Stand on return circle. Have someone pressure said thief (a warrior with pindown can sit on circle and fire away at the thief, even). Wait for him to port back. Cleave his face. If he infiltrator arrows away, then he can’t have easy access to stealth outside of utility cooldowns so smash his face.
How to fix heartseeker spam: Interrupt the first heartseeker, or attack the area he heartseekered to, or aoe cleave the area around blackpowder, or stand in the blackpowder circle and he might hit you with heartseeker revealing him.
At the very least: Use some type of block/area blind/etc. when the thief is in stealth, when you see the block pop up or the blind miss pop up, immediately about face and smash the face of the thief. You will get a face stab of about 2 – 3k (extremely manageable) damage, but the thief will be in melee range and revealed so smash his face.
Overall: have better situational awareness.
In other words, don’t be bad.
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Protip: Cleave the area around the downed body. Problem solved.
One earthshaker will ruin the thief’s day.
Why do I keep seeing this nonsense. Are you a mm necro trying to defend it or something. Every single time I solo q or team q there is atleast one mm necro. They are obviously a great choice for high level tpvp. If they weren’t there wouldn’t be atleast one usually 2 on every single enemy team. Every single tpvp match is the same thing. Hammer warriors nade/bomb engi mm necro spirit rangers and bunker guardians. Nobody plays anything else.
They are a terrible choice for tpvp because competent teams know how to deal with them. It’s a bunker spec that requires (in general) at least 2 players to bring it down. One guy pulls the minions while the other goes for the face. It’s also a terrible team build. It’s trash in a team fight because you lose out on things like epidemic and signet of spite. It’s also ridiculously slow so it can’t push up to mid after taking home and effectively watch home and deal with any decappers. The only thing it can do is sit AFK on home and hope some lone idiot pushing far will come along and die again after again on far point. If people decide to run multiple bunker specs (bunker composition), then the typical response to this is to push all points at once.
From a micromanage standpoint (buttons pressed) probably spirit ranger. You pretty much just have to auto attack to get anything done. Your pet is for burst and your main source of damage is from burning via sun spirit. Throw in a few dodges (don’t need to get carried away though since you have stone spirit) for the protection and your elite spirit for 400+ hp per second you have a successful home defender.
Assuming you’re solo-queing team-que, then warrior is the best class to run with. It requires the least amount of teamwork to get things done. It can deal damage, has a strong role in a team fight, has a shot against home defenders, and is (in general) the best 1v1 class in spvp.
i’ve always gone with 15 acrobatics instead of trickey. if you already have high crit%, there’s no need for more fury from stealing. also, i’d drop the shadow arts XI. it’s not worth it. ;p
If are using a backstab build and you run with executioner’s, you need fury. Otherwise take hidden killer.
The biggest problems I see with solo que fall into two tall categories:
There is a significant lack of team co-ordination, mostly brought out by terrible map communication. This means that a person running a spirit ranger or mm necro and sitting at home point all day is going to create an advantage for their team because it usually takes at least 2 players to take these classes down. Trying to organize that kind of a push at far at the right time in solo que is near impossible because people are paying attention to what they are fighting and not to map chat. Also, you go ahead and try and bark orders for your team through mapchat when you have a warrior trying to pin you down. This also means running a warrior (which is broken) is going to give you a significant advantage simply because it is the single class that requires the least amount of teamwork to get things done. There is a reason why we see so many of them in soloque.
The second problem is the gap between hotjoin and soloque. Most people in hotjoin run straight dps. We see dps guards, dps rangers, dps engies, dps warriors, dps thieves, etc. On a rare occasion we see a person using a more tanky build, but since hotjoin has the numbers (8v8) no one seems to really care because you can easily put at least 3 people on a point in general. There is a huge problem here and a huge learning curve for people who have played hotjoin for a while and immediately jump into soloque. Frequently, we see classes do a lone push on far only to die repeatedly the entire game because someone was running spirit ranger and just sitting on home with one hand on their kitten and the other pressing 1 all game. I’m almost certain people say to themselves, “My class is GREAT in 1v1’s (really only warrior), so I should handle this fight EASILY. If I lose, it’s ether because I got outplayed, or it’s because the person is running a spirit ranger no-skill build (which it is a no-skill build) so I will complain about it on the forums.” When in reality, it’s just that they have very little experience on how to far point push effectively because of their hotjoin experiences with all dps builds tell them they should be able to kill anything. Couple this with a sever lack of communication, and you get people dieing on far point all day. This isn’t just a far point push issue ether. We see home defenders just afking on home all day as well when they should be pushing up to mid to help support, and instead develop some map awareness (i.e. skill) to constantly watch home to make sure someone isn’t trying to steal a decap from it. So because they’re watching T.V. at home, mid gets wiped and they don’t care because they think to themselves, “Not my problem, I have home.”
tl;dr
The learning leap from hotjoin to other forms of structured pvp is too big. Communication is terrible and leads to simple cheese winning maps.
Can a thief be agile and hit hard? yup..so can a warrior.
Warriors can’t even compare to the amount of mobility that a thief or a mesmer can do. They have more presence in a fight, but they absolutely do not have the same mobility. They also can’t even remotely disengage combat as easily. Do warriors require the least amount of teamwork to get things done? Yeah, there is a reason why you see so many of them in soloque. But all warrior teams are terrible.
Ideally, I’d like to see the ele and engi be on equal grounds for the best jack-of-all trades class. There is something to be said about a class that can be everywhere to support the team where something is lacking.
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Yeah, MM Necro’s not viable in high level. It does provide a lot of damage + sustain in 1v1 for the skill required to play it, which is why you’ll see it a lot in solo q.
^ This. So many people don’t know how to deal with a home defender in Solo Q. One person will ether push far and die constantly the entire match to one, or nobody will touch it. Not to mention, if you have a home defender, chances are they will afk on home and not push up to mid like they’re supposed to.
What the dude above me said, gotta walk the walk if you gonna talk the talk DAWG, show me how easly you beat them
MM necros are terrible in team fights – which is why they arn’t used by anyone but nubs. The only thing they are good at is sitting at home and afk’ing while eating cheetoes. Don’t fight them 1v1, just like you generally shouldn’t fight a spirit ranger 1v1. Get two people, one to pull the minions and the other to go for the necro’s face = dead necro. 2 man pushes on far are actually pretty common.
tool kit is pretty much mandatory if you get immobed locked. magnet is pretty much the setup for most engie spikes – the best ones will cancel cast magnet if they see a person dodging it, and not waste prybar if it fails. I can really only see rocket boots to replace it.
If you’re not using Warriors, then you’re doing something wrong.
Travelane,
Against two equally skilled thieves, no matter what the weapon set, d/p should always win.
Imo D/P Thief and teams running double Mesmers are fantastic counters to warriors.
So you think a thief and two mesmers, 3 out of 5 players, should be on a team to counter warriors? Do you have any clue how terrible that idea is? The problem with running more than 1 thief or 1 mesmer on a team is that they don’t hold points. They have absolutely no sustain. Their role is to be able to easily force 2v1’s via their mobility, and can easily peel from fights. People say that they are great at 1v1’s, but they’re pretty terrible against anything that has more sustain than them, actually. The only 1v1’s they should be doing, if at all, is against other squishy roamers. Pit a typical thief up against a typical spirit ranger on far, the thief will always have to peel away or die on far point – losing the match to the team. It’s one of the reasons why S/D thieves was so favorable (it has that extra sustain, high mobility, high sustain damage, and can contest points, though its sustain was reduced quite a bit after dec 10th patch) and why it was one of the banes of mesmer’s existence. The moment the team, who is running more than one or the other, runs into another team of equal skill who is running with a class that has more sustain, they will be at a disadvantage.
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Deimos, you win some you lose some. I think the journal is cute and I’m glad you’re playing something other than hotjoin, but c’mon man. If your trying to “catalog” your personal adventures to make a point about warriors, the point is going to be moot.
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I looked it up and most ppl are saying that it just adds 1000 HP if even that?! That doesn’t sound much :O
It can make a world of difference on a thief.
Also, if you’re pillar los’ing mobs, backstabbing/heartseekering isn’t the best thing you can do. switch to sword pistol for this – blackpowder autoattack, or if fighting a mini-boss, pistolwhip like mad.
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You shouldn’t need shadow arts V. Instead consider blind on stealth to help with trash mobs. Also, quickness on crit proc might not be the best thing ether since you’re focusing on backstabbing things. Instead, the extra health you get via practiced can be a godsend. Only take Executioner’s if you have an easy access to fury – thrill of the crime provides this (or if you can get a teammate to do it, that would be fine too) and also some team support as well. If you’re deadset on using flanking, consider taking furious retaliation instead of quickness proc.
It wasn’t 8v8. It was a 5v5 against terrible players.
It’s Battle of Kylo mid match. I landed a steal on a guardian at home (lawl lone guard push far) to take mace. Me and a teammate murder said guardian. I head to mid to help out. I see there is a Warrior on point. I bassi up, backstab into mace hit. Whack into him for a bit, then steal heartseeker to bring him to 25% health with a 4 to 5 second stun on him. He trololols, runs around like a chicken with his head cut off, and procs defy pain passive via 30 defense trait. No probs right? Just maintain poison via auto and he’s gonna be ded in seconds. His friends show up, and kill both squishies on point (me and another guy). GG, Anet; gg.
The new idea toilet has arrived, time to pinch off some babies into the pool.
Mesmers typically pop enter portal when they see they are about to lose a fight at treb. They then run off hoping the person will destroy treb. Once repair kit spawns, they make a mad dash, place exit portal, and portal back to repair. Thieves will place shadow trap on the wood paneling (a place most people don’t tred while killing treb) when they see the same thing happening. To do your best to prevent this, don’t kill the treb completely. Once your team starts to put pressure on mid again, make a timed push onto the trebber (mesmer or not). The push on treb is what really matters, not the downed treb – just don’t die.
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Other than that, committing to that fight for too long might actually put you into a 2v1 because a freshly respawned enemy decided to help his trebber.
Which is when you back off, or completely bail if the other player that showed up sticks around. That one additional player at treb means they have one less on a node.
Mesmers usually wait until the treb is down to portal/repair so they don’t waste the CD.
Which is why you wait 50 to 60 seconds before killing the treb. Otherwise, it’s far more important to simply put pressure on the trebber than it is to actually kill the treb. They cannot use treb if they are constantly being attacked.
I wouldn’t give up blinding powder for smoke screen personally. Just use the warrior steal ability when he is in his longbow. The steal skill will protect you naturally. If you see him start to use combustive shot, interrupt it with steal to prevent condi clear if you have slight of hand.
Doesn’t allow for much counter play when you have no time.
It’s already been said: Don’t completely kill the treb. Wait a few seconds, roughly around 50 to 60 seconds after portal has been dropped, then go back and destroy treb. Portaling the repair kit means not portaling people to far/mid/whatever.
Its far more important to simply make a timed push on the trebber when your teammates start to pressure mid.
Better solution is for devs to forceivly make soft counters. Then switching wouldn’t be all that bothersome or relevent.
QFT
/15 chars
Yeah I dunno what’s so bad about 2 thieves at higher levels of play, if they coordinate that’s basically 2 targets that you won’t account for when running into a fight.
Two thieves on a team are bad because they can’t hold a kittening node.
If the team isn’t kittened, which most people in tpvp are (most know nothing about good rotations), then the team with more than one thief will probably lose.
“My point proven exactly, you have little to no experience with Tpvp.”
^ This.
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Another thing Shakya,
Don’t hang out on a node. Make your kills and once everyone is downed and there is no other threats, pop a few blackpowders on the left-over downed bodies for your teammates to stomp them safely, then peace the kitten out of there. Your teammates will think your bad kitten , and your enemies will think you’re EXTREMELY annoying. Most importantly, this frees up time to move to other nodes to help out.
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