Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

SorrowsEmbrace.8120:

The issue isn’t rolling, its how disproportionately short swamp is, such that its worth spending 5 minutes rolling for it. If people were re-rolling the first fractal based on which one they had the most fun with, I guarantee this would not be an issue. People would play and let play. If you want to “fix” rolling, make swamp longer.

People throw around the word exploit in this forum like its nothing. An exploit is an offence that will get you banned. From the feedback here we know the devs know about the practice of re-rolling, and they are open to discussing the pros and cons. There’s no need to use loaded language to try and bolster your argument.

well if you take a step back and ask the question, what would you rather fix rerolling or dredge, its essentially saying whats more important, creating a more varied experience, or making it less time consuming/annoying.

the consensus is that speed/and ease is more important than variation to most people. I blame the reward system that prioritizes speed and ease. If the rewards were based on how long/difficult it was, people wouldnt care that much about rolling the shortest/easiest, and people would be trying to get better at dredge (i admit dredge is out of balance, and designed kind of annoying)

i think the rewards is probably one of the biggest issues with fractals, id say the other major issues would be agony progression being empty, grindy and sometimes backwards, and variation/replayability of fractals.

dredge i see as more of a balance issue, than an indicator of evolution of fractals

Astute post.

Chris

Orpheal.8263:

Re-Rolling:

hide spoiler

Simple fix, remove the surprise gameplay around it. Let players clearly choose, whichever Fractal they want to play, but reward each different string of choices differently in regard of effort/time relationship.
Simple rule, Simple outcome. No problems with Re-Rolling.
If you simply want people to do not something specific, remove the issue that leads to the problem (surprise effect) and compensate the removal with an improvement of the reward system, that gives out better rewards for people, that spend more effort in doing the fractals compared to the lazy people, which want only to speed rush through the fractals.
Theres absolutely no NEED to rework anything about the Dredge Fractal.
Don’t change it, only because alot of people are too lazy to do it cause of its length and the time it takes to do it.
Don’t waste your time and ressources on such 100% total unneccessary changes, which in no way improve the Fractals at all as a whole

Use your time and ressources and improve Fractals with something, that has a high value for the gameplay of FotM, like new features that keep this gameplay content fresh and interesting.

Thoughts about Top 3 Priorities now

hide spoiler

So in regard of importancy the top 3 things that ANet should focus on for Fractals for now only are:

• Improval of the Fractal of the Mist Rewards (Fractal Relic Vendor, more stuff for Pristine Relics in regard of all kinds of Ascended Equipment, Money Reward at the End, much bigger usage of Mist Essence materials, they drop to rarely, make a better reward out of them especilly for FotM, these materials should also be gainable in WvW, basically everywhere in the Mist, not just only in Fractals.

• Redesigning Stabilities more into a kind of Fractal Gambits which aren’t automatically forced upon you based on the fractal level, but are also a wide array of chooseable Gambits to manually raise the difficulty for the group and if you take them, to raise the difficulty, you could raise the rewards for your group.
  Theres no need to have like 50+ different instabilities, when just 10 or so would be more than enough working as Fractal Gambits in the way like Gambits worked in the Crown pavillion to make the content harder and at the same time more rewarding.
  Doing this I think it would be also good to use this opportunity to completely remove the silly AR Grind out of the whole FotM Concept. That something like this found even into the game is really irritating, when you think about ANets no grind philosophy
  Completely remove Agony and AR out of the Game and replace AR with a more useful new stat, that is useful for the whole game and not just only for Fractals.

Something like Dexterity, a Stat that could have influence on Skill Recharge Times of Heal/Elite and Utility Skills that for example every 25 Points of Dexterity, Recharge Times of these Skill Types get reduced by 0,005%

• Add new Features, like my mentioned Heroic Fractals (BMP like Multi-Part Story Fractals, that could be used to give us GW1 Missions/Lore and Novel Lore especially in playable form in GW2. Such thigns are it, that improve FotM as a Feature massively and keep players interested in playing Fractals.
  Adding contantly new Fractals in general is, what alot of people want to see naturally, because havign always to do the same Fractals gets borign naturally over time.
  But Heroic Fractals, compared to Normal Fractals would be something, where Anet could scratch the Balance from Fractals from new and design them to be played either SOLO, or as a 5+ man group.

Think on a War in Kryta-Fractal, where you could play it for example as a Legion Mission that scales up differently in regard of how many players participate, which could feel like some kind of Raid, if say like 20 people want to do it with you.
But you could also decide to play that War of Kryta-Fractal alone and everythign would scale down in it to be playable as Solo-Content.

Then again there are lore driven options for Fractals, like my wanted Ghosts of Ascalon-Fractal, which simply naturally allow only for a maximum of players, liek the lore has basically playable characters in the lore.

Excellent exercise in terms of ‘reduction’ of the proposals and re factoring of your opinion in light of the discussions.

In a similar way to the exercise that Orpheal has under taken it would be wise now to ask you all to pick 1 area that you would prioritize above all others having has the chance to have seen everyone’s opinions around each others proposals.

Chris

dutchiez.7502:

spoj.9672:

Adding dragonite into fractals would be nice. Atm dungeon runners are forced to do wvw or open world to get their dragonite. And they have no shortage of emp fragments and bloodstone dust.

God yes! Please add dragonite as a reward to fractals or dungeons in general, so the dungeon runners who don’t enjoy zerging content but do enjoy having BiS gear can stop grinding temples!

I will discuss this with the rewards team and find out their opinion.

Chris

phys.7689:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Just a quick note to let you know i am up to date.

I am assuming that you all feel that for example a Dredge rework is higher priority than say a rework to rolling?

Chris

Why do you personally think those two issues are way more important than getting a System in place that makes Fractals challenging ….. and more stuff

Though i think Patrikan maybe overly passionate, i have to agree, that in the big picture of what fractals needs, and the evolution of fractals in general, these issues are small in comparison.

These are balance fixes, they dont really evolve fractals and make them more interesting to that many more players, high level or low level. but yeah if you had to choose between those two it would probably be dredge for most i think.

but taking a look at dredge, I’d say the larger problem is that fractals as is, represents a race to complete the daily as easily as possible. Dredge is hated partially because it is a bikitteniment to that goal.
By changing the focus of fractals to be less of a lowest possible time to beat daily, you will probably fix both problems, and future problems with fractals that are short or masterable, and fractals that are long, and not easily mastered.

Point is, award people differently for doing different fractals, change the focus from being beat as soon/easy as possible to beating whatever challenges are thrown at you.

that said, dredge does have some design issues that are probably fundamentally off, even if the length doesnt change.

I am simply trying to determine the relative priority weighting that this CDI group has around this two areas.

Chris

Just a quick note to let you know i am up to date.

I am assuming that you all feel that for example a Dredge rework is higher priority than say a rework to rolling?

Chris

phys.7689:

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

MokahTGS.7850:

I also would like Fractals (and to a lesser extent, Dungeons) to evolve to allow for 2-5 player scaling. I know they are currently designed for 5 people, but I’d like to see the balance code reworked in such a way that 2 people could run through a fractal and be rewarded for that level scale. Obviously 5-man fractals would reward more, but I personally just want to run through them with my wife…currently that isn’t possible.

Call it “Casual-mode” for Fractals.

Personally I would like to see Fractals be able to be 5+ as well with associated risk/reward mechanics.

Chris

This is something I didnt even consider as part of the discussion, but love seeing it and think it deserves more attention/discussion.

The idea of fractals with different sized groups would go over insanely well in my guild. Just last night, we had 7 people wanting to do fractals and had to arbitrarily leave two friends out of the run.

Been doing this for so many years in MMOs with 5 man content that it’s become the norm. This single change would really set GW2 apart and give us a way to better play with friends (and as a GM of a large guild, it would allow me to schedule a guild fractal night without having to worry about leaving people out).

as long as they dont balance fractals around 5+ people, i dont mind, but also you have to realize no matter what number they pick, people will get left out.

From a brain storming standpoint I think 5+ fractals would be their own entity within fractals and thus be balanced for 5+ only.

Chris

Romo.3709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There is no ‘desperate’ need Romo. It is simply something I am interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on. The discussion so far has been very good.

Also please don’t assume that just because we are discussing or not discussing something that it either is or isn’t being given attention.

Chris

That’s completely understood Chris.

My intention is not assuming anything at all, I assure you. But with so little attention we’ve gotten over the past few months, I’m very nervous about what message you guys going to get from us.

I love fractals for what they are, even at the state they are right now, even though I still cringe every time I see that underground tunnel after a loading screen.

I hope you don’t misunderstand my stand on the topic at hand. I care for this part of the game more than any other area, even though I don’t spend as much time in it as I used to before the last patch.

I’m just glad that the conversation is being heard and hopefully thoroughly reviewed with attention it deserves. I apologize if I ever sound out of line.

Thanks for your clarification Romo. The conversation is very much being heard. CDI is an integral part of how we develop and we value it very much.

Also thank you very much for your passion in this area and your commitment toward this CDI. I am hoping we can continue to discuss many ideas around this topic.

Chris

Romo.3709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I would appreciate it if you could put some ideas forward for Leader-board mechanics.

Why do we still desperately trying to put in something that Fractals doesn’t need? It was a bad idea then, it’s still a bad idea now. There were many people voicing their concerns about their fractal habits being seen by the public. The discussions went on so far as people asking if they could opt out of the Leaderboards all together. That was never addressed just like many other topics around Fractured update.

I think the idea should be just scrapped and forgotten. The time should be instead invested in redesigning one particular fractal level that doesn’t even have to be mentioned to be understood which one is being called out. Along with new rewards system and perhaps new items.

In other words, please don’t waste man-hours (which you will most likely have a finite number of, that can be put towards fractals) on something that majority of fractal players never asked for nor wanted to begin with.

Instead let’s focus on the major things: balancing and rewards, because that’s where the main issues are laying right now. Not the lack of Leaderboards.

Please, if you can discuss it with us. What would you like to see changed? How you feel about time investment in fractals?

There is no ‘desperate’ need Romo. It is simply something I am interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on. The discussion so far has been very good.

Also please don’t assume that just because we are discussing or not discussing something that it either is or isn’t being given attention.

Chris

MokahTGS.7850:

I also would like Fractals (and to a lesser extent, Dungeons) to evolve to allow for 2-5 player scaling. I know they are currently designed for 5 people, but I’d like to see the balance code reworked in such a way that 2 people could run through a fractal and be rewarded for that level scale. Obviously 5-man fractals would reward more, but I personally just want to run through them with my wife…currently that isn’t possible.

Call it “Casual-mode” for Fractals.

Personally I would like to see Fractals be able to be 5+ as well with associated risk/reward mechanics.

Chris

Merus.9475:

Actually, if there’s reward discussion…

Proposal Overview: Introduce a wider variety of items into fractal loot tables, biasing it in favour of karma, crafting materials, and items with high resale value.

Proposal Goal: Make fractal drops weirder, differentiate fractal rewards from dungeons and the open world, and create a source of T6 materials that is more efficient than farming gold from dungeons and buying them on the TP.

Functionality: Instead of the normal, blue and green weapon-heavy loot tables, fractal enemies would be more likely to drop retired living world items (e.g. ballot papers, molten scrap), Set 1 miniatures, karma and luck items, and consumables that can be bought for karma (e.g. rocks, Ogre Pet Whistles). They would also drop Mist-Infused Bags, which would contain T6 (and sometimes T5) crafting materials (including inscriptions), living world materials (quartz, sprockets, spores) and ectoplasms. They would never contain rare crafting materials (i.e. lodestones).

A player’s fractal reward scale would determine how likely they are to get the more unusual drops, and how likely they are to find a Mist-Infused Bag instead of the bag that enemy type normally drops.

Sub Proposal: In addition, very rarely, players may find a Mist Crystal of Valor, which when consumed awards a repeatable achievement worth 1 point.

Risks: Increasing the variety of dropped items may make bag space much more of an issue. Introducing a source for some items (Set 1 miniatures) may cause the price to plummet, making them unrewarding as drops. Increasing the supply of T6 mats also increases the efficiency of farming up gold and then buying them on the TP. The algorithm that decides drops may, in practice, prevent many of the drops unique to fractals from appearing.

Absolutely we can discuss rewards.

Chris

Savoy.6824:

Why are none of the devs discussing the over abundance of ascended rings. There have been several proposals around these but not any comments by the devs on those proposals. Are they not helpful?

Just because we don’t reply doesn’t mean that we aren’t discussion or reading the proposals and discussions being put forward in the thread. It would be a huge evolution for us as CDI members if we could just get over this ‘Assumed’ barrier.

Chris

The Lost Witch.7601:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This is a really good point:

I personally think a well made fractal either tells its own story in the case of the Ascalonian city fractal, or allows you to conjure up a story in your head for it. The cliffside fractal does this to perfection for example.

And one we should always aspire to regardless of additional exposition of law.

Chris

I do believe that more things can be added to help us conjure up a story though. Perhaps some more elaborate cave drawings or tapestries that tell a story without words. (Which leaves it up to us to interpret them)

I’ve been transformed into a dolphin quite a few times… but it doesn’t make me wonder why. (Up until now) But if there was a shiny glowing largos that showed up as we arrive that starts singing and turns us into dolphins … that would make me wonder. Or if we were to swim through an enormous trumpet that turns us into dolphins… that would also make my mind wander.

Things in fractals can be crazy and random, but I prefer the things that make me wonder. Like that colossus in cliffside, which is one of the most impressive and epic unexplained stories I’ve ever seen. This is not just a giant, the giant is a prisoner, and guarded by priests. These 3 ingredients are enough to make my brain start spinning stories. While the purposeless krait, giant jellyfish and dolphins don’t connect into story-spinning at all.

I love the passion and drive to further expose lore through the Fractals. This is something we will be super mindful about moving forward. It is after all a key pillar of the Fractals.

Chris

Hi Folks,

Good discussion. I am enjoying it. The discussion about re rolling is very insightful.

I would appreciate it if you could put some ideas forward for Leader-board mechanics.

Specifically in regard to the fact that I was unhappy with us putting out Leader-boards in their previous functionality (having lots of folks sitting at lvl 50 was not ideal) and therefore the feature was held back.

Obviously we have given Level 50 Leader diversification a lot of thought but it would be awesome to hear your proposals. Note there are a lot of logic problems in the solutions in this area so please do think about associated risks.

Cheers

Chris

Wethospu.6437:

Solypsys.1876:

—

• Please for the love of god remove “rolling,” not only is swamp my least favorite fractal but it is now impossible to get any of the other “initial” fractals such as underwater. A couple of the tier 2 fractals can be dropped to tier 1 (aetherblade hideout) and rolling needs to be eliminated

How would you prevent restarting the run? Even if you could, what about people splitting up and having 5 roll attempts? Very likely to get a favorable map.

To be honest, I would appreciate if people focused on how to implement their ideas. It’s easy to have nice ideas like “fix problems, add fun stuff, make people happy” but actually implementations might be much trickier.

Like all the people telling how dredge or rewards have to be fixed. I’m sure they are well aware of that. But what they would (probably) like to hear is how they should be fixed.

I agree Wethospu. It is much more useful for folks raising issues if they provide suggestions for how to fix said issues (-:

Chris

Randulf.7614:

Tyson.8492:

ColinJohanson.2394:

spoj.9672:

But on to the point of explorable modes not being heavily story driven. Why does the new aetherpath in Twilight Arbor still have unskippable cutscenes and needlessly long dialogues? This is a major reason a lot of players avoid the path.

This is a perfect example of why heavily driving a lot of lore and story into something that is intended to be a group re-playable experience isn’t a great idea, and something typically we try and avoid. Thus the challenge here, to get across these cool stories, without the cost of the pacing of the fractal experience!

An idea would be to incorporate Lore Scrolls that can be earned by completing achievements within the fractals or made to be a drop kinda like the blueprints from bags that when you piece them all together, you get the Lore story told either through a cinematic or a simple slide show with text, similar to the new Atlas content. This would allow players to experience the Lore outside of the fractal and not weigh down the team waiting on a cinematic to complete. I think it would be really cool to have the chance to experience some lore like the Edge of Steel in the Arena fighting gladiator style, or even reliving a dragonspawn battle with Destiny’s Edge. Seeing the dwarven race driven underground…..I am sure you get the picture. Have the scrolls pertain to the story related to the fractal in which it came.

I personally think a well made fractal either tells its own story in the case of the Ascalonian city fractal, or allows you to conjure up a story in your head for it. The cliffside fractal does this to perfection for example.

Having said that, I like the lore blueprint idea. That gives re-playability for casuals like myself with no interest in higher tiers.

I also love the idea of Destinys Edge fractals, maybe as a playable set you can choose inside. The arena, the dragonspawn fights, battling Kralkatorriks minions and the death of Snaff – all key moments in the book which could be played out.

This is a really good point:

I personally think a well made fractal either tells its own story in the case of the Ascalonian city fractal, or allows you to conjure up a story in your head for it. The cliffside fractal does this to perfection for example.

And one we should always aspire to regardless of additional exposition of law.

Chris

Hi Folks,

Just a quick note to let you know i am SUPER busy today but will try to catch up from page 7 this evening or late this afternoon.

Chris

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

A few of you mentioned disappointment at the lack of response so far in this thread. Yesterday was an extremely busy day for me to be actively participating in the thread, but I figured it couldn’t hurt to get the thread going.

I’ll be spending most of my day today just going over this thread and summarizing some of the ideas. I’ll try and get some of the guys in here as well to comment on specific feedback!

Please be patient, the thread hasn’t even been up for a full day!

Thanks

Hey All,

Some great discussion so far.

Adding to what Allie said, please don’t assume that if there hasn’t be a red post that the discussion hasn’t been read by the developers. Personally I read the CDI topics every day and generally spend some time watching the flow of the discussion and formulating my own opinion before feeling the need to comment.

Many of the team read the topics and just by doing so this impacts how we evolve the game. We are all part of the initiative and are all part of the same discussion group and sometimes it really nice to be able to sit back and read the proposals and discussion without feeling like we have to comment for the sake of it. I like that, a lot.

Keep up the good work, you are in great hands.

Chris

videoboy.4162:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I sort of feel bad for Chris already. I tried to keep my posts short, but every time I come back to the thread I see walls of text that are “formatted”. It’s still difficult to get through.

I really wish people could be more concise, use more lists, and less walls of text.

Anyway, I like a lot of the ideas so far. But it does seem the playerbase is all on the same page here. It would be beneficial to get some developer interaction to see what page they’re on. (But I can’t imagine trying to soak in this many words at once, so I suspect that’s why we aren’t getting too much red yet).

Things are much much more accessible already and whilst we can still improve I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for giving it a try.

Loads of devs have commented to me about the topics being much easier to consume and think about.

So thanks everyone.

Chris

If she feels bad for you, she should go check out the Ranger Thread. I feel so sorry for poor Allie. =(

Allie and the team are doing a great job and the majority of the discussion is very useful to. Really pleased so far with the CDI topics.

Chris

P.S: Fingers crossed!

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I sort of feel bad for Chris already. I tried to keep my posts short, but every time I come back to the thread I see walls of text that are “formatted”. It’s still difficult to get through.

I really wish people could be more concise, use more lists, and less walls of text.

Anyway, I like a lot of the ideas so far. But it does seem the playerbase is all on the same page here. It would be beneficial to get some developer interaction to see what page they’re on. (But I can’t imagine trying to soak in this many words at once, so I suspect that’s why we aren’t getting too much red yet).

Things are much much more accessible already and whilst we can still improve I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for giving it a try.

Loads of devs have commented to me about the topics being much easier to consume and think about.

So thanks everyone.

Chris

Malchior.5042:

Would rewards have to be the end-goal of such an initiative, Chris? One of the best examples I’ve seen recently of user-generated encounters was the “Foundry” in Neverwinter.

http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Foundry

They basically gave access to different base NPCs, assets, map templates, and from there, people crafted their custom stories, quests, and dungeon-delving experiences. There was no ability to modify mechanics, stats, or do mesh editing of the different props. It was essentially a copy-paste tool for the purposes of creating environments, but thankfully one of the greatest strengths of the D&D universe is its Roleplaying and the thousands of stories that can be created.

I feel the same could be said for the world of Tyria.

I don’t know how much effort it would take to create a new tool or system of this manner in the Guild Wars 2 engine, but Fractals could definitely be seen as a method of delivery for the content.

Lots and lots of effort (-:

Chris

Conski Deshan.2057:

Chris,
Is there a specific policy against the introduction of prestige items (items specificity beyond the ability of a large quantity of players to acquire.) being introduced to high level fractals?
or are we welcome to make proposals based around that idea?/ high difficulty rewards?

On fractal evolution, would you (personally not asking for a company stance) prefer the introduction of more fractal types (such as the endless fractal and tower fractal modes that have been suggested) or would you rather we expand on what new scenario fractals we’d like?

Hi Conski,

Feel free to discuss those ideas. Folks can discuss anything they like as long as it is on topic and not cyclic retreading of things we already know (as a group).

Chris

Esya.3427:

I already posted this in the dungeon forum yesterday, as I was unaware of a fractal CDI coming up. I am sorry for the double post, but I feel it is best to have this suggestion here as well for completeness.

Proposal overview
Make agony resistance (AR) account wide.

Goal of Proposal
Fractals become much more repeatable/replayable if we can bring any character. It makes it a different experience. The fractal levels are account wide, but I find myself bringing the same character because she is the only one who is equiped with AR.

Proposal Functionality
Similar to the change that was made for magic find in the past, where it was removed from the gear and made account wide, the same could be done for AR.

Associated Risks
- People who already build up their AR should have this transferred to their account somehow in order to not lose progress.
- Balancing the acquirement of AR.
- Balancing power creep from infusion slots that can now slot other attributes.

I will discuss this proposal with Izzy and have him respond.

Chris

Galen Grey.4709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I would like us to start of by listing the top three things we would like to see evolved in Fractal Design. Idea proposals can come after this stage.

Chris

1. Procedural Generation
it would be nice if at least some elements found in a fractal were a bit randomize so that every run has variety
2 rewards
making rewards not entirely dependable on RNG
3 User generated content
This is perhaps a bit too ambitious but perhaps if the mists can be found to dwell in alternate realities not just the past, it would be interesting to allow players to design their own fractals and share them with the community.

Personal opinion: It would be really cool to have number 3. Rewards would be an interesting problem in regard to this idea though.

Chris

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Chris, I think Nike recommended an environmental weapon, like a shield, that could help with the first encounter. Is this something that you’re fine with chatting about? The addition of tools to fractals like dredge so that the fractal itself doesn’t change, but our strategies do?

That is absolutely ok to discuss.

Like I said I have no issue discussing evolution of the fractals once we have a good grasp on what should be evolved, which in the case of Dredge i feel like we do.

Chris

Moon.7310:

Using fractals to tell story:

Proposal Overview
Fractals should be used to tell as more about the lore/history of Tyria.

Goal of Proposal
Increase the amount of lore used for the fractals and creating new fractals which story and background informations. This is such a good oppertunity to tell us about things that happende before GW2, things that could happen in the future, things of an alternate version of Tyria.

Proposal Functionality
Existing fractals:
I think the fractals should have some more story, like what is this underwater fractal thing, what happened in this strange rata-sum version, is it ascalon we are over-running? It would be great if we got some more informations about them while doing them, either by getting more informations from Dessa or by some writings found in them or NPCs you could talk to.

New fractals:

• There could be fractals which tell us about events that happened between GW1 and GW2
• Fractals that tell us about things that happened even before GW1
• Fractals telling alternate versions of history: I would especially love to see a fractal where we help Shiro to kill the Emporer (still a great fan of Shiro )
• Fractals about a possible future: Everything is overrun by Scarlet (sorry, I just had to write that here, since I like here even if so many hate her^^)
  I’ll complete the list here with this examples, since I could go on about this for a long time.

Associated Risks
Of course people might not care about lore/story, making it a bit of wasted time for you devs, but I still think many would think it a nice addition and if it leads to new fractals everyone should be happy.

Hi Moon,

Thanks for delivering a very good proposal for more Lore based fractals.

TimmyF this post is a good example to discuss ideas around.

Chris

timmyf.1490:

Chris-

What are your thoughts about bringing back some of the GW1 Missions as Fractals? Is that something feasible?

I mentioned Aurora Glade as an option before. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aurora_glade

If this is something you would entertain, would it be valuable for us to discuss potential options?

I think this is a cool idea and certainly one worth some proposals and some discusison around said proposals.

Chris

Scorch der Juengere.7328:

Proposal Overview
The Agony Protection Device allows players to take an extra burden of positioning an environmental item and themselves in a fight in order to avoid agony.

Goal of Proposal
This proposal assumes that it should be possible to do Fractals by replacing the need for agony resistance with a higher requirement on skill. It proposes a method to allow this by giving a group the option to add a secondary mechanic to encounters which—if executed successfully—allows the players to avoid agony.

Proposal Functionality
At the start of each fractal, the Agony Protection Device, an environmental item, spawns along with the players. The item creates a small zone around it. In this zone, players are immune to agony (alternative: can not receive new stacks of agony). This zone wanders with the item no matter if it is carried by a player, or not.
For those of you familiar with the Tower of Nightmares, there was a similar device in some of the chambers that made players immune to the toxic pollen.

The additional burden for the group is to carry around the device (no weapon skills while carrying) and to organize group play such that the characters are in the zone when agony is about to hit.

At the start of each Fractal, there is a robot which allows to reset the device (remove the old one, create a new one at the position of the robot).

Problems

hide spoiler

Associated Problems

• The “additional burden” is not balanced over different fractals. The idea was born for the Solid Ocean Fractal, and that it where I hope it should work like I intended: players meeting in a small zone when agony is about to hit. It is, however, rather trivial when the unavoidable agony is limited to a few hits before the fight even starts (Mai Trin, Molten Duo). In these cases, the additional burden might be too small. I’d say this is a big issue.
• It also affects Fractals of tier 1 to 3. This will probably add some trouble for changing some encounters to be too easy. However, since unavoidable agony is also parts of these tiers (at least the cooling-rod-room in Thaumanova), it should also apply to them. Medium-sized issue in my opinion.
• It also puts limitations on future Fractals. For example, unavoidable agony must never occur while the group is split up (maybe countered by adding multiple devices?).
  Medium-sized issue in my opinion, as it only limits the use of unavoidable agony.
• It can also allow a single (or two/three) player to get an advantage over the other players. Players can choose to just stay in the zone for the agony-immunity. However, if all players stay put in the same zone, most encounters are unforgiving. Therefore a group has to decide who gets to carry the device and to get the protection. This might actually be a nice addition for some groups (helping new players). I’d thus say it is only a small issue.
• Making an environmental weapon crucial for success is very prone to bugs. It probably needs a method to recreate it in case it is lost. Big issue, but maybe easy to solve.
• (added in edit 1) The effect on the agony-instabilities (level 40, 50) is really big. I simply can not foretell how this will work. People would actually be forced to staying together. This is not always possible (pressure plates in Dredge Fractal) and probably not wanted by some players. Big issue. Really big. Even if level 60, 70 and 80 are not similar to 40 and 50.

Really fun idea.

Chris

Mustafa.7684:

Topic Title: Potential Fractals (Replay Value)

Description of Topic Feature or Goal:
There are a lot of instances that can be created with the fractals. You can add some previous missions from Guild Wars 1 (don’t know if you are allowed to but come on this game is a “sequal”.) Not only this but you can also provide additional lore from the research we do while in fractals.

Suggested Idea Proposal Format:
1- You can create small fractals from Eye of the north dungeons. Or Main missions like fall of abbadon or fighting the lich king.

2- After completing the fractals we should be able to go back to the npc and find out there conclusion on the fractals. Ie where the giant silver surfer came from, what time frame that was in. Extra flavor text that can provide us a information about what we have done will provide us a sense of accomplishment other than the blues and greens we really really are begging for!!!

Goal of Proposal
Increase the Fractal Replay value. Yes once you hit the cap of 50 there is not point in doing the high level ones any more. You want to do you daily and done. However if you are able to provide lets say another 5 – 10 fractals this will increase the player base since player would want to try the new content.

Proposal Functionality
This one might be time consuming because you are actually creating content for the game. It can be another living story update. I would also perfer that devs do there research on what are good fractals that can excite the players.

Associated Risks
The only risks i see is Money. time is money and developing new fractals will take time. All I ask is that please consult players before you make fractals so we are happy with what we get. The Thoumanova reactor was good but poorly implemented. This was just another way for you to get Scarlett involved. If the community wanted Abbadon, I am sure Scarlett wouldn’t have been there. I hope not!

I like your thinking Mustafa!

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Malchior.5042:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

timmyf.1490:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I just thought there was a suggested word count of the proposals, and it was 200

So far, that just isn’t happening.

Incorrect. Proposals can have any length. Suggested word count for discussion posts about proposals is 200 or less.

Oh well, there hasn’t been much discussion. Only 5 pages of proposals of “any” length.

Which is to be expected at this time. This is exactly how I hoped it would pan out, and it’s much more streamlined this way.

Imagine if you were at a business table with 50 executives or something and they all tried to not only give their proposals, but argue for or against other’s proposals at the same time? Essentially, noone would be heard.

It’s great that the contributors here are feeding off one another, speaking in turn (as if rotating around a table), and then just stepping aside to let the next person offer a proposal.

Now it will fall on Chris to find some interesting ones for further discussion, or present the request for players to find a proposal that is not their own to back, support, or campaign.

And now, back to lurking. Been too busy with work this week to contribute my own proposal.

@Lilith – I agree, and perhaps Chris can decide on a course of action once a majority of the proposals have been gathered.

I to am really enjoying how the new format is working out. Seeing the proposals and discussions in this format is making the whole topic much more accessible.

In regard to your request I would like to see more discussion/proposal around rewards as well as ideation about how we could evolve the whole Fractal experience from ideas around new types of fractals, new lore and info on your favorite encounters in the current fractals.

On top of this it would also be cool to hear about people’s favorite instabilities and ideas for new ones.

Chris

Also i think it is totally cool to have the first pages be proposals and for discussions to flow synergistically between and after them. No issue here.

Chris

timmyf.1490:

Asko.4120:

I don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but if you are ‘well aware of’ the player displeasement with the current implementation of the dredge fractal, why haven’t you done anything about it for the last year?

I speculated about this in an earlier post, but my best guess is that there is internal disagreement about this Fractal, but the decision was made to keep it as is and most devs are just trying to avoid making any comment about it at all as they need to present a unified message to players.

This is pretty standard corporate policy. My hope is, over time, ArenaNet feels more comfortable allowing individual developers some leeway in discussing personal feelings which may differ from the official position. I think Josh Foreman is best known for doing so and most of us here have tons of respect for him because of it.

That said: Chris has made it pretty clear that Dredge won’t be discussed, so let’s try to find other topics and move forward.

Just to clarify: Ideas around Dredge are welcome, regurgitating the same feedback in regard to the fractal is pointless.

Chris

Malchior.5042:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

timmyf.1490:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I just thought there was a suggested word count of the proposals, and it was 200

So far, that just isn’t happening.

Incorrect. Proposals can have any length. Suggested word count for discussion posts about proposals is 200 or less.

Oh well, there hasn’t been much discussion. Only 5 pages of proposals of “any” length.

Which is to be expected at this time. This is exactly how I hoped it would pan out, and it’s much more streamlined this way.

Imagine if you were at a business table with 50 executives or something and they all tried to not only give their proposals, but argue for or against other’s proposals at the same time? Essentially, noone would be heard.

It’s great that the contributors here are feeding off one another, speaking in turn (as if rotating around a table), and then just stepping aside to let the next person offer a proposal.

Now it will fall on Chris to find some interesting ones for further discussion, or present the request for players to find a proposal that is not their own to back, support, or campaign.

And now, back to lurking. Been too busy with work this week to contribute my own proposal.

@Lilith – I agree, and perhaps Chris can decide on a course of action once a majority of the proposals have been gathered.

I to am really enjoying how the new format is working out. Seeing the proposals and discussions in this format is making the whole topic much more accessible.

In regard to your request I would like to see more discussion/proposal around rewards as well as ideation about how we could evolve the whole Fractal experience from ideas around new types of fractals, new lore and info on your favorite encounters in the current fractals.

On top of this it would also be cool to hear about people’s favorite instabilities and ideas for new ones.

Chris

Asko.4120:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Shinki.8045:

Conski Deshan.2057:

snip.

Agreed. Discussing the fact the dredge is frustrating and takes a long time barely helps the process of Fractal evolution beyond the idea that people dislike long time gates. Dredge can be fixed to the liking of players and devs alike, getting there should be part of the evolution of fractals.

One topic I’m not sure if someone has brought up or not, but would solve some of the rewards/currency issues players are having:

A vendor that gets unlocked after completion of the final Fractal. This vendor has things that can be bought based on the difficulty that has been completed, and bought using fractals currency primarily (depending on the value of the item.) As an added way to make it interesting, have the available wares vary depending on what fractals people ran through especially the first one.

Pie in the sky idea: Sell stat infusions from these vendors, or dye kits to color existing fractal weapons, or some other way to show prestige from completing difficult content.

The concerns, comments and feedback surrounding Dredge are something that we are well aware of. Thank you very much for giving us further insight into this area but our time as a CDI on this topic is better spent elsewhere.

Chris

I don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but if you are ‘well aware of’ the player displeasement with the current implementation of the dredge fractal, why haven’t you done anything about it for the last year?
I can’t even begin to count all the topics opened to voice player concerns about the fractal and still there has been no change. Actually that is not entirely true, you have ‘fixed’ numerous tricks players used to help making the fractal slightly shorter.
I even remember a developer quote that said something like ‘we are looking into options to help reduce the length of the unnecessarily long fractal (dredge)’ way before the Fractured patch but the opposite was done

Hi Asko,

I would like to clarify that we are aware of the feedback both from this thread and before. We try to stop on top of all feedback from all aspects of the game. Jumping from this statement to ‘why isn’t it fixed’ is not a topic for this CDI nor any moving forward.

I am simply stating that we are aware of the feedback and therefore our time is better spent discussing other areas of Fractal evolution. I am really enjoying many of the proposals and discussion and would like to see us continue discussing areas that perhaps we haven’t considered before or further drilling into reward design which has been an excellent part of the discussion so far.

Chris

Shinki.8045:

Conski Deshan.2057:

snip.

Agreed. Discussing the fact the dredge is frustrating and takes a long time barely helps the process of Fractal evolution beyond the idea that people dislike long time gates. Dredge can be fixed to the liking of players and devs alike, getting there should be part of the evolution of fractals.

One topic I’m not sure if someone has brought up or not, but would solve some of the rewards/currency issues players are having:

A vendor that gets unlocked after completion of the final Fractal. This vendor has things that can be bought based on the difficulty that has been completed, and bought using fractals currency primarily (depending on the value of the item.) As an added way to make it interesting, have the available wares vary depending on what fractals people ran through especially the first one.

Pie in the sky idea: Sell stat infusions from these vendors, or dye kits to color existing fractal weapons, or some other way to show prestige from completing difficult content.

The concerns, comments and feedback surrounding Dredge are something that we are well aware of. Thank you very much for giving us further insight into this area but our time as a CDI on this topic is better spent elsewhere.

Chris

Quick note to say that I am up to date on the proposals and small number of discussion points.

Chris

Good stuff!

Note during the proposal and top 3 evolution’s stage there really is no need to have summaries.

The proposal format in my opinion is really working, it is certainly saving me time and I am very quickly able to understand the ideas and the pertinent discussion around them.

Thank you all very much for giving the idea a try I appreciate it.

Chris

Awesome use of the suggested format so far.

Thanks,

Chris

Good start folks.

Chris

I would like us to start of by listing the top three things we would like to see evolved in Fractal Design. Idea proposals can come after this stage.

Chris

Welcome fellow collaborators to the latest round of CDI topics.

Thanks in advance for your hard work and passion in making Guild Wars 2 the very best game it can be.

Topic Title: How would you like to see Fractals Evolved?

Description of Topic Feature or Goal.:
To provide a highly repeatable 5 man strategic instance experience that scales in difficultly as you progress in fractal levels whilst providing the opportunity to tell old and new stories from within the Guild Wars Universe.

Below are some suggested formatting tools that willmake the CDI more accesible if followed.

Suggested Idea Proposal Format
Proposal Overview
<A short description of the proposal that is being put forward>

Goal of Proposal
<What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal>

Proposal Functionality
<How does your proposal work in regard in relation to the current design of GW2>

Associated Risks
<What risks or problems can you foresee with this proposal which you would like to have assistance on from other members of the CDI>
Please try to be as concise as feasible with your proposal. This however no suggested word count for proposal posts.

Suggested Discussion Approach

No suggested format.
Suggested Post Word Count: 200

CDI Rules:

1: This initiative is all about discussion.
2: We will not be disclosing information pertaining to what is currently in development.
3: Anger and emotion will have less impact than intelligent discussion.
4: Together we will share and evolve design philosophies which will impact how we develop the game moving forward.
5: Aggression and disrespect to a fellow community member or developer will not be tolerated, and in the extreme could lead to the shutting down of the initiative.
6: The teams primary focus is work toward the development of GW2 and therefore posting of discussion and commentary may not be as frequent as you like. Please do understand that the initiative is taken very seriously by us all and that we will be reading the discussions and joining in as often as it is possible to do so.

Please note this is not a competition, either between yourselves or the developers in regard to one up man ship. The point of this Initiative is to work together to make the game better.

Note: We will disclose the ideas we do or don’t like as a group but we will not discuss schedules or timing around implementation. If there is still concern surrounding how seriously we take community collaboration then please do take the time to think about how much impact the community has had on the working of this game over the year.

Chris

Locking in preparation for the new CDI Topics. Thanks for your contribution in regard to this topic. See you in the new CDI threads!

Chris

Orpheal.8263:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Wow! Judging from this thread, all CDI threads, except Ranger, will be ghost towns, and all but forgotten.

I hope whoever presides over the Ranger CDI thread is ready for the deluge. Think I will steer clear…sounds like a bloodbath coming. Lol.

I sadly agree, especially if people keep on responding in the same type of “quality”, like they just did in my preperative For Monday- Brainstorming/Sandbox-Thread, which is the reason why I decided to let it get closed by a Mod today…

If everything what you will see in the CDI on Monday are only silly destructive answers like

ohhh, this is OP
Ahhh that is so ridiculous
uhhh, those are insane

then good night.

This are not the people with that you can talk constructively a slightest bit over anything.
What alot of people must understand here in the first place is, that Anet surely wouldn’t make a whole CDI about the Ranger Class, after we the community have chosen this class out to be discussed, if they wouldn’t plan to use the CDI also not too to make some bigger changes on the chosen Class, if that should end up later to be part of the Ranger Proposal to make the class alot better balanced, more fun to play and functionate simply better in regard of its clumsy class mechanic that are their pets.

Because the real only one, who decides over it, what is OP, what is insane and what is really ridiculous or just impossible out of whichever reasons is – ANET
Nobody else.

So if people don’t begin to overcome their biases and to stop with their mentality of the “nothing may touch my beloved things – or I quit” way of bribe thinking, the class CDI will quickly fail.

This kind of CDI will be only successful, if all participants are objective and contructive to whatever for suggestions will be made for the Ranger, otherways the CDI just has only the potential to turn out into a flame wars

Cause if this kind of CDI becomes a great success now, chances are very good, that we will see in future also CDI’s for the other Classes to follow for the to the ranger compared more too strenghtful classes, like especially the Warrior in the first place
Or perhaps before somethign like that gets continued, I’d like personally to see my CDI about Sub Classes first tehe ^^, right Chris ??

Hi Orpheal,

I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading your last two posts.

It is refreshing to see the CDI being discussed like a tool (-:

Chris

snow.8097:

Chrissyyyyyyy
What i would like to see in Ranger CDI:

- The thoughts behind the Design of the ranger
- Which builds do devs Play in PvP with Ranger (and yes you Need to say that a lot of devs Play ranger, most People cant believe it)
- The minds of the Balance Team on the current Ranger. I think Chapman already did it after Eagle Eye Bug few months ago.
- Do not allow that Player compare with other classes. I know you already stated it…but some People dont want to understand that every class has its own playstyle.
- Be serious against utopic Balance suggestions. This Community is difficult because they strongly believe…the ranger is the weakest of them all.
- Its absolute needed to Show in CDI the Balance notes for ranger. When the notes are good (probably even with a super duper wombo Combo mega giga buff a lot of ranger will say…“no. too weak”) we will less see People flaming around.
- You will probably know the most suggestions in ranger Forum, something like that “Druid ranger/Staff Ranger”, “Remove pet/Stow Pet for dmg buff” and state ur thoughts…and pls dont use anets favourite sentence “Nothing is off the table”. Please please not!
- The thoughts behind the ranger weapons. I think the most ranger hate themselfes…errrr the weapons of their class… Longbow and Axe main Hand for example.

Chris…i think u know it, but this CDI will be difficult for ur Team.
prepare yourself bro.

Hi Snow,

I would suggest putting the feedback in the thread once it opens. I have read it but it will be worth re-posting it for your fellow collaborators can think about it to.

I don’t see why it will be ‘Difficult’. The CDI is something that we embrace because it connects us with the community and therefore leads to an even better game.

However if the implication is that folks are going to be rude to the team or anything along those lines then the only folks it will be ‘difficult’ for will be the posters who take this approach.

Aside from this I am very much looking forward to reading that CDI (-:

Chris

Hi All,

I am out of the office today so I doubt I will be on this thread to much.

This said the conversation seems to be winding down. I would appreciate it however if you could take a little bit of time to assist The Lost Witch in answering the questions put forward as this will be valuable to us moving forward.

Chris

Laurelinde.4395:

This is rapidly turning into just a rehash of the last process thread.

I understand that no one person has the time to read every single post in every single thread, and some of them are more worth reading than others. However, there is no format or process to eliminate human idiosyncrasy. When soliciting feedback from such a large group of people, it is always going to run the gamut from inspired to inane, and from cryptically terse to breathtakingly long-winded.

What bothers me is the prospect of the process becoming hoops to jump through for an illusion of interaction. “Give us your feedback…but only if ____.” “Tell us what you think, but not if ____.” Not all worthwhile feedback is perfectly-formatted sound bites that look good on paper, and not all perfectly-formatted sound bites that look good on paper are worthwhile feedback. Have we as a species really lost the ability to process written information more than two sentences long?

I really want the CDIs to be more than a paper exercise or a PR gimmick. Maybe we should just kinda…get on with it, lest we end up having the same circular administrative discussions instead of actual dialogue about the game content itself. For Anet’s part, is there scope for an internship of some kind for a person or persons to go through the forums/CDI topics, summarise, and report back on particularly salient ideas?

Hi Laurelinde,

‘For Anet’s part, is there scope for an internship of some kind for a person or persons to go through the forums/CDI topics, summarise, and report back on particularly salient ideas?’

I feel you are basing much of your argument/feedback on assumptions and this is reflected in many of your posts on the CDI. So I will try and clear some of these up for you:

- I do not work in Marketing and this is not a marketing exercise. I am a game designer.

- The CDI is a development tool.

- An intern would not have a thorough understanding of what we are working on or how we prioritize workloads in the studio never mind have a deep enough understanding of the game’s design or the synergistic relationship of the communities play behaviors with said design to extract ‘Salient’ points. This take years and years of experience.

- Therefore it is integral that it is developers who work with the community on this initiative.

-Thus a careful balance must be met to ensure we all get the best out of our time.

- Time therefore is the primary resource of the CDI and I am simply asking that we are more efficient with it.

I hope this makes things a little more transparent.

Chris

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Gee, you are up late, Chris! And on a work night! That’s dedication! =)

Playing Escape from LA and keeping up to date with the CDI thread (-:

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

I am out of the office tomorrow and very busy today. Therefore I am going to set the CDI topic kickoff to roughly 12pm PST on Monday. This is because I, like all of us, want to be able to give the new topics the attention they are due as the return on investment is huge.

I am going to keep this thread open for as long as it is useful and as a note I have started to remove posts that are of topic so in regard to this feedback early in the thread we are making headway in this area.

Chris

For those who missed info about the timing of the next topics.

Chris

Nike.2631:

Psientist.6437:

I think the responsibility of summary should tend to fall towards the owner of the thread. Maintaining an unbiased summary is work and demonstrates a commitment to the topic.

The downside is ‘Proposals to forward to the ArenaNet team’ constructed by Devs have been misconstrued in the media as definite plans of action. Sort of a super-early “what’s coming soon for GuildWars 2” when that is most definitely not the case.

Having tried it once and collaborated on a second attempt, I certainly agree its work. I don’t think the unbiased part is all that difficult – you don’t have to agree with an idea to record it faithfully. Hitting the right micro/macro tone is the part that’s proven… let’s call it "challenging"’… for me .

Yep regarding misconstrued CDI proposal’s this is still an issue.

Chris

Keep in mind their is a difference between summary’s and the final CDI proposals. Summaries are the collated idea and discussion points every 3 pages and the CDI Proposal appears at the end of the whole thread and puts forward the CDI groups focused proposal for the team at Anet.

Just wanted to clarify for the purposes of our current discussion, which by the way I am enjoying very much.

Chris

Psientist.6437:

I think using the format will make up-voting more valuable a metric. Perhaps a note encouraging up-voting proposals before or instead of posting.

The format may increases the opportunity to engage in quote combat. Perhaps quote combat is grounds for post removal.

The format will also speed up the discovery of good ideas. Will we continue to use a summary every 3 pages and if so, who is responsible for compiling? The players or the development team?

Thank you

Hi Psientist,

We should definitely continue to do summaries. As to who does it that’s a good question which we could explore here in this thread? I am happy to do it, but I know that there are members of the CDI who really like doing it to.

Chris

Asko.4120:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Asko.4120:

postponed 3 times already

Hi Asko,

There is no point in the CDI if the members of it are unable to give it the attention it is due. We make a live game and thus ‘things’ come up. Thank you for your patience and I to am looking forward to being able to giving my full attention to the next set of topics.

Chris

Hi Chris,

yeah I understand that things can be hectic in the office at times, it is just that I’m a fractal enthusiast and really looking forward to discussing improving the Fractals See you on Monday!

Looking forward to it to Asko. See you then.

Chris