Guild Wars 2

Dalanor.5387:

moiraine.2753:

Dalanor.5387:

Balsa.3951:

I have a question

Ppl say nobody should be carried/ pull there weight in those raids.

So how is that monitored/ controlled ?

Without a dps meter how we know who is been carried by 20 people?

By not inviting strangers in the group and play with people who you know well.

Raids must never be made only for people that you know.They have to be made with having in mind the pugs too.You can’t know every random pug that you invite your group out there.

Dps meter/Recount and inspect function is a must for a MMO.If it lacks those things then you can’t be certain who you will be grouped with.In other MMOs i can fast look through a few tabs – gear/achievements/progression + dps meter.

Pugs will be able to do such content after a while when tactics become well known and they get the neccessary equipment (at least in other games but for a degree it’s true in GW2 too, just think about Teq and PVT gear). Hell after a year pugs are still unable to do Teq most of the time not to mention the Wurm …
Back in the days we could manage to do even 25 man raids in WoW because we socialized and keep contact with people who we liked and has at least a decent skill to go through content together. If something RL issue kept someone away of course a pug was invited with a proper advertisement and filtering.

But sadly the proposals here mostly wish for such “hard” content where everybody is able to join with every kind of build and skill level and experience and still go through it which i find both saddening and hilarious. Either it’s hard or so pug friendly that they faceroll through it easily. Both simply can’t happen. Period.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

1. Skins, other visual effects upon further completition (the infusion idea that came up multiple times), maybe vanity items. Titles based on achievements and achievements that enforces proper playing (eg: Flawless Defense, Above the Waves at Teq) instead of party griefing and neglecting group succes (eg: Tail Flail at Teq).

2. I’ll ask a question instead. Do you find the 5 target aoe cap on buffs and boons a proper mechanic in raid environment? Wouldn’t that cause problems in party compositions and design overall? What i mean currently 1 warrior per group is essential if you want to buff your whole raid or guardian per group is essential if you want to cover defensive abilities and so on. Of course it’s only problematic when every raid member is at the same place but i hope you get what i mean.

ps: Fix the camera please. :/

Hi Dalanor,

Regarding your question:

I do think the AOE cap is something that will has to be considered in this raid proposal and discussion in regard to player strategy and encounter design. Questions like this are great.

We have an existing core DNA of foundational core combat and movement systems and mechanics in the game that we can discuss that will promote great discussion and ideation and it is this DNA that will form the back bone of the proposal. The more we focus on this the sooner we will make progress in the CDI.

Chris

Conski Deshan.2057:

Proposal Overview
Possible Raid scenarios and outlines: Part 1: Arah and Dwarven

Goal of Proposal
To lay out possible raids with some descriptions.

Proposal Functionality

City of Arah: The central sections of the city have been breached due to the efforts of the pact and can now be explored:
Visuals: A less destroyed section of Arah (maybe magically protected from wear and tear etc. With some of the skyscrapers you can see when fighting zhaitan present too.
Raid Effect: Vile Maisma: the thick stenches and corrupting atmosphere makes healing magics less effective : healing reduced 33%.
Events/steps:
Zhaitan shard: A piece of zhaitan radiates magic in this area raising corpses and imbuing them with necrotic powers. Seal the shard or drain it of magic.
The Vault of relics: A vault filled with powerful relics, most of which have been absorbed/drained by zhaitan, save for X. Its mesmer properties cause your party to become separated, can you rejoin and overcome its effects.
College of Arah: Experimental creatures are contained within can you survive?
Bosses (in order): Spawn of Zhaitan , Guardian of the Vault, Mesmeric construct, Grounds keeper, Delta , Omega and Zeta (three o boss), Dean of Undeath.

Remnants of the Dwarfs: An untouched dwarven facility has been opened by priory explorers. Find out what you can.
Raid Effect: Musty Air: Endurance is halved (1 dodge)
Events/Steps:
Dwarven Gauntlet: Filled with traps, false passages and a constantly changing pathway to prevent entry into this mysterious old facility.
The repository: A collection of buildings containing dwarven knowledge and ancient weapons. Investigate but be wary of guardians.
The Depths: A spacious sub-basement rough huen and recently attached to a natural vast cavern., Watch your step or you may plummet to your death.
Bosses in order: Dredge demolition team, The Gatekeeper, Fragments of the dwarves, The Librarian, Crazed stone dwarf , Jormungand (giant thing that made the passage).

I haven’t attached boss mechanics because I’ve already made 7 posts on potential ones.

Edit: woops was typing this and did’nt see Chris’s post.

It is all good thanks Conski. You have put multiple mechanics based ideas forward and this frames them well.

Chris

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

Dalanor.5387:

Balsa.3951:

I have a question

Ppl say nobody should be carried/ pull there weight in those raids.

So how is that monitored/ controlled ?

Without a dps meter how we know who is been carried by 20 people?

By not inviting strangers in the group and play with people who you know well.

Also I can safely say that we do not need to discuss DPS meters in this proposal.

Chris

Good Morning All,

So far the thread has been very good. But it seems overnight, for no real reason at all, the collaboration, maturity and value of the thread has plummeted. I want to nip this in the bud so let me make some points:

1: The ‘I am more skilled than you’ commentary is boring and of no use whatsoever.
2: The analogy used in one of the posts is completely inappropriate and will not be tolerated.
3: We like to see discussion and proposals from different types of players and we are more than capable of drawing our own conclusions.
6: I have stated many many times that this CDI is about Challenging content.
7: If we don’t get back to collaborative and respectful discussion then I will close the CDI.

Chris

Naetell.3815:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Evening All,

Relics of Orr podcast about the CDI below:

http://www.relicsoforr.com/?p=3403

‘In this special episode we chat with guest host Soren of Gaiscíoch about the Raiding CDI and how Guild Wars 2 could create unique raids.’

Chris

P.S: Thanks Relics of Orr and Soren for your feedback.

Nice. Thanks for the link.

It is an excellent discussion with some really insightful brainstorming and design concepts.

Chris

Evening All,

Relics of Orr podcast about the CDI below:

http://www.relicsoforr.com/?p=3403

‘In this special episode we chat with guest host Soren of Gaiscíoch about the Raiding CDI and how Guild Wars 2 could create unique raids.’

Chris

P.S: Thanks Relics of Orr and Soren for your feedback.

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Blaeys.3102:

Arewn.2368:

Blaeys.3102:

Im very aware, which is why I advocate the two raid sizes of 8 and 12 as a viable model. As long as you have eight people, you would only ever need to find, at most, 3 people to make multiple raid groups possible during a raiding session.

There is big difference between having to find 3 additional people and having to find 14 additional people (even without the trinity) to make raiding viable during a session.

And we really shouldnt care what the pinnacle of normalcy is in raiding. The point is to get away from those preconceptions and look at what GW2 offers. Traditionally, in large groups, GW2 uses scaling. Im past advocating for scaling, but I still think the issue deserves a solution. That is why I want to have the discussion.

My point about normalcy is that people are both accustomed to and fully capable of dealing with it.
5 friends, only 4 can play L4D. 11 friends, only 10 can play League of Legends. 3 friends, only 2 can play Portal2.
You’re making a mountain out of a molehill on something we can discuss LATER, and it’s derailing the thread.

Again, it doesnt matter what people are used to from those games.

By the same logic, We’ve been doing guild missions and living story for close to two years in GW2 without any restrictions on who gets to participate in guild events.

And, I would have no problem tabling the discussion if I thought it would actually be part of the conversation at a later phase – and not dismissed with single set raid sizes established as given from the beginning. Again, all Im asking is it eventually be part of the planned conversation. Unfortunately, that isnt the case. I dont want raiding to end up making into the game and me raising my voice then just to be told “you should have said something during the CDI.”

Again, asking for raid size and flexibility/accessibility to be part of the planned conversation – that is all. Without it, it doesnt really matter to some us what the actual content of the raids looks like.

Hi Blaeys,

I really appreciate and respect you collaboration and discussion and for that reason I am going to make this statement as I think it is the fairest thing to do.

For the purposes of this discussion we will only be talking about fixed Raid sizes or less than the set number with no scaling.

I hope you understand the reason for me making this statement as I don’t want to waste your time.

Chris

Are you planning to address the issue at a later time – hopefully in this thread?

Again, I dont even care about scaling – I just dont want to be put in the position of having to find 14 additional raiders to ensure no one is left out.

That could just as easily be done by balancing around 2 raid sizes (such as the 8 and 12 person models I postulated earlier). The point is, there are ways to address the issue without harming the difficulty of the raid. Its possible someone out there has an idea that is better than the ones I propose. Its worth the discussion at least (even if it is at a later point in the thread)

I apologize if my posts have harmed the flow of the discussion in any way. I just feel this is important enough to warrant some discussion – whether it is now or later in the process.

It’s ok Blaeys, you haven’t been disruptive and I understand your points. The answer is yes. Let’s allow for more foundational discussion and then we can discuss two raid group sizes in terms of pros and cons.

Does that sound ok?

Chris

That is all I needed to hear.

As long as the topic is intended to be part of the discussion and we arent simply assuming a single raid of 15 people (without the discourse), Im happy to participate in the foundational conversation (probably not tonight though – getting close to orange beer time).

Of course, know that I will be holding you to it before this CDI is complete ( ).

And Happy Halloween. As always, we respect the efforts you put into these CDIs – and in putting up with blowhards like me.

Thanks Blaeys I appreciate it. We will discuss it but that doesn’t necessarily mean it will go into the proposal though.

Chris

Boottspurr.9184:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hehe you are definitely not late. I can tell you from experience this CDI is going to last a long time which I am more than happy about.

The CDI group or only just starting to settle down into our first topics which is fine but you can gauge CDI time from that.

Chris

17 pages of Settling Down… WOW I can’t. how do you. reeaadd it all? New-found respect, Chris. New-found respect.

Because it is awesome and I love it and it is super important to the game (-:

It isn’t just me that reads it, in fact a lot of the team are reading this one (-:

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

KngGilgamesh.3481:

Blaeys.3102:

Its not an optimal solution, but the only way I could see 15 or fewer player raids working is if the difficulty was designed around having 10 players.

Groups wanting the challenge could limit their size to 10 or fewer players and guilds like mine would still have some flexibility in the size of the teams they could field. Win-win.

Im not going to let this topic drop. If this is going to be a collaborative development initiative, then we need to collaborate and not ignore significant concerns from anyone.

You don’t really seem to understand what Chris has been trying to say.
They want to create a raid in which knowledge and mechanics are more important than number of players. He has stated this multiple times now.
To reiterate again, difficulty is designed based on knowledge of the fight and the skill of the players rather than the amount of people participating.

This is why he suggested 15 size limits, since the size isn’t as important. They want us to move on to how we would like the raids to be specifically (what kind of encounters, mechanics, how to employ the mechanics in fun ways etc.) The limit can be be subject to change based on how the raid is designed.
In other words the raid influences the size of player. The size of players don’t influence the mechanics of the raid. Much less constraints this way and we don’t have to be stuck on a single point to the detriment of all other points.

Correct. Thanks Gilgamesh.

Chris

So if I have a raid night where i have two groups – one of 15 and the other with the remaining 8 (as an example), they are going to have the same chances to beat the encounters if the players involved are at roughly the same skill level?

If that is true, then I’m happy. That would be putting skill at a more important level than numbers.

So this is a very clever question which does need to be answered regardless of raid number sets. If it’s ok though let’s discuss it when we get to raid number set discussions.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Blaeys.3102:

Arewn.2368:

Blaeys.3102:

Im very aware, which is why I advocate the two raid sizes of 8 and 12 as a viable model. As long as you have eight people, you would only ever need to find, at most, 3 people to make multiple raid groups possible during a raiding session.

There is big difference between having to find 3 additional people and having to find 14 additional people (even without the trinity) to make raiding viable during a session.

And we really shouldnt care what the pinnacle of normalcy is in raiding. The point is to get away from those preconceptions and look at what GW2 offers. Traditionally, in large groups, GW2 uses scaling. Im past advocating for scaling, but I still think the issue deserves a solution. That is why I want to have the discussion.

My point about normalcy is that people are both accustomed to and fully capable of dealing with it.
5 friends, only 4 can play L4D. 11 friends, only 10 can play League of Legends. 3 friends, only 2 can play Portal2.
You’re making a mountain out of a molehill on something we can discuss LATER, and it’s derailing the thread.

Again, it doesnt matter what people are used to from those games.

By the same logic, We’ve been doing guild missions and living story for close to two years in GW2 without any restrictions on who gets to participate in guild events.

And, I would have no problem tabling the discussion if I thought it would actually be part of the conversation at a later phase – and not dismissed with single set raid sizes established as given from the beginning. Again, all Im asking is it eventually be part of the planned conversation. Unfortunately, that isnt the case. I dont want raiding to end up making into the game and me raising my voice then just to be told “you should have said something during the CDI.”

Again, asking for raid size and flexibility/accessibility to be part of the planned conversation – that is all. Without it, it doesnt really matter to some us what the actual content of the raids looks like.

Hi Blaeys,

I really appreciate and respect you collaboration and discussion and for that reason I am going to make this statement as I think it is the fairest thing to do.

For the purposes of this discussion we will only be talking about fixed Raid sizes or less than the set number with no scaling.

I hope you understand the reason for me making this statement as I don’t want to waste your time.

Chris

Are you planning to address the issue at a later time – hopefully in this thread?

Again, I dont even care about scaling – I just dont want to be put in the position of having to find 14 additional raiders to ensure no one is left out.

That could just as easily be done by balancing around 2 raid sizes (such as the 8 and 12 person models I postulated earlier). The point is, there are ways to address the issue without harming the difficulty of the raid. Its possible someone out there has an idea that is better than the ones I propose. Its worth the discussion at least (even if it is at a later point in the thread)

I apologize if my posts have harmed the flow of the discussion in any way. I just feel this is important enough to warrant some discussion – whether it is now or later in the process.

It’s ok Blaeys, you haven’t been disruptive and I understand your points. The answer is yes. Let’s allow for more foundational discussion and then we can discuss two raid group sizes in terms of pros and cons.

Does that sound ok?

Chris

Boottspurr.9184:

I’m getting to this CDI a little late, I’ve been crazy busy this week… I must have missed a ton of info already and I’m not sure where we are in the conversation, but I still wanted to put forwards some ideas I had:

-In my mind, raids would be implemented as guild content as an upgrade the guild would unlock (similar to bounties, etc.) at a higher tier.

-The upgrade would allow the purchase of semi-timegated raid event consumables, purchased through influence, again similar to the activities guilds have now.

-The use of one of these consumables would allow an officer, as well as up to 25 other people (difficulty is balanced for 25, or perhaps there are two difficulty modes: 10 and 25), access to a raid instance for a certain amount of time (TIME LIMIT). I chose 25 because it might be smart to use the Commander Squad functionality with this somehow.

-Members of the guild officer’s party of 25 (or 10) do not necessarily have to be part of the guild, but rewards specifically for the guild would be determined based on how many guild member participated.

-The instance unlocked for the raid would make most sense if it took place in the Mists, but locked off areas in the real world with real world consequences/story would also be very cool.

-I do not think the instance should scale based on party size, it should have one or two difficulties set (possibly for 10 and 25) with different rewards/amounts of rewards.

-The easiest form of rewards would be various Raid Tokens (received from beating each boss, or even event if the difficulty is many many little baddies), to be traded for unique looking rewards of no higher power than ascended. Also, guild commendations as well as guild influence (from each boss) :P
More Tokens, influence, commendations for 25 than for 10…

-Obviously the MOST IMPORTANT THING about these raids are not that they are necessarily your standard raid structure of kill trash, go kill boss, repeat (similar to dungeons), but THAT THEY ARE DIFFICULT CONTENT. VERY difficult content.

I’m not sure how you guys are going to work that out, but hopefully Dave the AI genius is coming up with some awesome ideas of how to prevent mass rezzing from downed, overcome stacking, etc.

ALSO IMPORTANT is what to do about CONDITION STACKING… With this many people, 25 stack limits will make party comps very strict against condition builds… not great.

I forget the other stuff I wanted to say, but there ya go…

Hehe you are definitely not late. I can tell you from experience this CDI is going to last a long time which I am more than happy about.

The CDI group or only just starting to settle down into our first topics which is fine but you can gauge CDI time from that.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Arewn.2368:

Blaeys.3102:

Im very aware, which is why I advocate the two raid sizes of 8 and 12 as a viable model. As long as you have eight people, you would only ever need to find, at most, 3 people to make multiple raid groups possible during a raiding session.

There is big difference between having to find 3 additional people and having to find 14 additional people (even without the trinity) to make raiding viable during a session.

And we really shouldnt care what the pinnacle of normalcy is in raiding. The point is to get away from those preconceptions and look at what GW2 offers. Traditionally, in large groups, GW2 uses scaling. Im past advocating for scaling, but I still think the issue deserves a solution. That is why I want to have the discussion.

My point about normalcy is that people are both accustomed to and fully capable of dealing with it.
5 friends, only 4 can play L4D. 11 friends, only 10 can play League of Legends. 3 friends, only 2 can play Portal2.
You’re making a mountain out of a molehill on something we can discuss LATER, and it’s derailing the thread.

Again, it doesnt matter what people are used to from those games.

By the same logic, We’ve been doing guild missions and living story for close to two years in GW2 without any restrictions on who gets to participate in guild events.

And, I would have no problem tabling the discussion if I thought it would actually be part of the conversation at a later phase – and not dismissed with single set raid sizes established as given from the beginning. Again, all Im asking is it eventually be part of the planned conversation. Unfortunately, that isnt the case. I dont want raiding to end up making into the game and me raising my voice then just to be told “you should have said something during the CDI.”

Again, asking for raid size and flexibility/accessibility to be part of the planned conversation – that is all. Without it, it doesnt really matter to some us what the actual content of the raids looks like.

Hi Blaeys,

I really appreciate and respect you collaboration and discussion and for that reason I am going to make this statement as I think it is the fairest thing to do.

For the purposes of this discussion we will only be talking about fixed Raid sizes or less than the set number with no scaling.

I hope you understand the reason for me making this statement as I don’t want to waste your time.

Chris

guardian.6489:

I got an idea to focus our mechanics discussion. Why don’t we take a previous living world event that could be transformed into a full Raid, create a blank slate for the Raid, then debate what mechanics we could add to it and what purpose they would serve. The reason for using an old event is because most of us have done it and it’s likely they’ll try recycling living story 1 content anyways.

I’ll use the wiki’s Dynamic event info as a template for each phase of the Raid: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Liberate_Lion%27s_Arch_from_Scarlet%27s_Forces
I also recommend finding some YouTube videos of the event so you know what I’m talking about.

For those who missed the Season 1 finale, this is modelled on the Dynamic Events and Boss fights around the battle of the breachmaker which is part of the Battle of LA. We’ll use the example Raid size of 15 for now.

Phase one: Neutralize Scarlet’s armies in key areas!
The fight begins with all 3 Parties starting off from the North entry location. They need to work together to take Fort Marriner, Trader’s Forum and Postern Ward. Once a location is taken after an X amount of time the Molten/Aetherblades/Molton Alliance attacks it forcing the group to split up to all 3 locations. There is trash throughout the city but they can be avoided. Once all 3 locations are captured phase 2 begins.
Recycled mechanics: Scarlet’s Alliances attacking each of the locations.
New Mechanics: (i.e. Toxic alliance husks spawn at Post Warden rally point and only take substantial damage from conditions)

Phase two: Stop the miasma deployment!

Three Miasma events spawn and the Raid party must deal with all 3 at the same time in a set time limit! If they fail one of the events they Miasma event the Raid will Fail/restart the event/lose out on bonus loot (pick one or add your own).

Recycled mechanics: The same Scarlet Alliance minions attack the Miasma locations

New Mechanics:

Phase three: Scarlet’s generals are out in the open. Kill them.

The 6 Generals of Scarlet Spawn in locations around the map (see that wiki page I posted for what they are) and the Raid must decide the Optimal way to kill all 6. They need to decide the fastest method to kill all 6 because ____
Recycled Mechanics: The Raid version of the 6 bosses use the same model and some of the same mechanics of the old open world fight
New Mechanics: (Think of new boss mechanics for all 6 of them)

Phase Four: Scarlet has unleashed her assault knights to stop the Lionguard.
The 3 Assault Knights spawn, and the Raid must defeat all 3 to the final battle with Scarlet.
Recycled Mechanics: The Three Assault Knights model and some of their attacks
New Mechanics: (Do we make the 3 Knights different this time?)

Phase Five: Defeat Scarlet’s Prime Hologram
All 15 members of the Raid come together for the final fight with Scarlet’s Prime Hologram. The first phase of the fight, the Raid must collect Primary Light Attunements to damage the Prime Hologram while avoid the Hologram’s laser attack which leaves a DoT effect on the ground in a strip where the Hologram fired. Second Phase the Hologram splits into 3 Holograms, and they must be killed at the same time or they will split further into mirco-X holograms and waste time further. Phase three you must kill Mircoprime Holograms to finish off the Ultra-violet Hologram, the fight goes back and forth between the Ultra-Violet Hologram firing it’s laser attack to leave a DoT attack (same as phase 1). There is a time limit to the fight.

Recycled mechanics: The fight still uses the same primary pattern and mechanics
New Mechanics: (What awesome new raid mechanics could we add?)

Rewards:
Death Consequences:

If you want to contribute to my thought experiment just quote my post edit what you want added, bold whatever is new and explain your decisions afterwords.

Very good idea.

Chris

KngGilgamesh.3481:

Blaeys.3102:

Its not an optimal solution, but the only way I could see 15 or fewer player raids working is if the difficulty was designed around having 10 players.

Groups wanting the challenge could limit their size to 10 or fewer players and guilds like mine would still have some flexibility in the size of the teams they could field. Win-win.

Im not going to let this topic drop. If this is going to be a collaborative development initiative, then we need to collaborate and not ignore significant concerns from anyone.

You don’t really seem to understand what Chris has been trying to say.
They want to create a raid in which knowledge and mechanics are more important than number of players. He has stated this multiple times now.
To reiterate again, difficulty is designed based on knowledge of the fight and the skill of the players rather than the amount of people participating.

This is why he suggested 15 size limits, since the size isn’t as important. They want us to move on to how we would like the raids to be specifically (what kind of encounters, mechanics, how to employ the mechanics in fun ways etc.) The limit can be be subject to change based on how the raid is designed.
In other words the raid influences the size of player. The size of players don’t influence the mechanics of the raid. Much less constraints this way and we don’t have to be stuck on a single point to the detriment of all other points.

Correct. Thanks Gilgamesh.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Yes can we please move away from the traditional tropes of raiding and discuss how to utilize the core mechanics of GW2 to create a new type of challenging co-operative instanced content.

We also don’t need to talk about levels or scaling for the time being.

And those that want to continue to chat with Crystal about progression then please do so.

Chris

In fairness, you brought the scaling issue to the forefront when you told us to assume a set raid size as part of our feedback. If we can abandon that assumption (with the understanding that the topic will be part of a later discussion), then it would open the conversation to other topics.

The logistics of how raids are formed – especially among guilds of diverse numbers – is a very important topic that will affect how players – and definitely guilds – experience raiding should it ever become a thing. That topic cannot be pushed aside. It goes to the heart of how we play the game.

I put forward set raid size to try to steer discussion away from scaling.

And just to note I also said ‘Set raid size with the ability for a smaller number than the set to enter in and try the encounter’

Knowledge>skill>numbers.

Chris

Iason Evan.3806:

I think a lot of the discussions so far have been really cookie cutter and not outside the box. I understand wanting to take raiding that you love and just plop it wholesale into GW2. Let’s brainstorm though.

• Make raiding gear uniform—when you start the raid you get to pick gear at a vendor from various stat selections—

• Players can side kick up to 80 in Raids so that anyone can do them at whatever level. The level cap in this game isn’t going anywhere so why do Raids need to be considered only playable by level 80 characters?

• Have Raids where groups of players fight each other at the end. If only one group is playing it defaults to NPCs.

• I’d like to see a Raid where players get to be the boss. If no player is available then it’s an NPC. You could have a gauntlet-style-defense-point-raid where a group of players are 5 different bosses sequentially fighting against another group of players trying to complete the Raid.

• Can we make Control classes mean something more in Raids? Support? Maybe doing DPS to a Raid Boss in a certain situation isn’t even possible. You have to do other things in order to bring the boss down.

Let’s spend a few pages of this CDI getting away from traditional notions of what Raids are and spend some time coming up with things that have never been done.

Yes can we please move away from the traditional tropes of raiding and discuss how to utilize the core mechanics of GW2 to create a new type of challenging co-operative instanced content.

We also don’t need to talk about levels or scaling for the time being.

And those that want to continue to chat with Crystal about progression then please do so.

Chris

Hi All,

I am up to date. The discussion flow and focus is excellent.

I am super happy at how mature and productive everyone is being. Keep it up.

Chris

Conski Deshan.2057:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

While I am on the subject let’s also frame the discussion around 15 player’s with the ability to do encounters with less.

I don’t want to constrain us to much but I think this will be helpful.
Chris

With that as a basis I would expect it to be composed of three parties of 5 players, preformed outside of the instance.
The three parties progress through the raid as a group for the most part with split points where each party is separated temporarily and has to survive some combat/puzzle/mini-boss , wiping of one group leads to failure of the condition for the other two groups.
I think this sort of splitting up is important in ensuring the content is difficult and that each player is competent. Additionally it allows for some interesting encounter mechanics, say pulling a leaver in your area has a effect on one of the other fights.

I see the focal points for rewards and progression to be around bosses, The three parties fight them together, no hard seperation but their should likely be some form of “events” that encourage splitting up during the encounter. Bosses act as a gate to further into the area, one or two people had concerns over bosses being the focal point being too similar to other MMO’s but I think its still a good way to do it.
To progress each individual player must kill the boss , to get to the next, this means that a player who has only ever killed the first boss cannot join a party at the 3rd boss, they must kill the second, this is a big part of what will help make Raids challenging, with no way to bypass their block they either have to improve or stop for the moment.

Very cool, good start.

How about we focus on progression later and start brainstorming the core activities and encounters.

i feel like I am already overly constraining so if this much guidance is to much then let me know.

Chris

Neon.5976:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

What I would like to see is us taking the very best of the core of our game and then re-imagining what co-operative, strategic and challenging instanced content could be rather than retro fitting existing paradigms.

Some folks have been doing this, it would be great if we could all focus on this as the spring board for discussion.Chris

Sorry to get a little off-topic. I already posted most of my high-level preferences in a big double-post on page 7. I just wanted to reply to something I disagreed with.

By that do you mean you’re looking for more detailed concepts of what an individual raid could involve? For example suggestions / brainstorms for a particular encounter within a raid?

Well one way to approach to it would be to brainstorm what an encounter could be like based on our core combat and movement. What cool things could we do with dodge, the way we build our environments, bundles, combos, profession support, etc. How should enemies behave? How big a part should the environment play? etc.

This way we can start to build up a shared vision of just how cool the encounters could be and then build from there.

Chris

Neon.5976:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Personally I would also want to see raids as end game content and by that I mean level 80 only.

Chris

I suppose endgame isn’t the best word in the world to be using so liberally. It does usually mean content to play once at max level but for a lot of players, myself included, it has a lot of other implications as well.

cesmode.4257:

When you start creating level 80 content only, ala raids, you segregate the playerbase much like other games where its then a rush to max level to do the raids. All of the gorgeous 1-80 content you have in this game becomes completely trivial and a stepping stone to the real game. You might as well just allow people to boost to 80 via potions or something and skip leveling all together because it becomes absolutely meaningless.

I remember it being stated how the whole game is end game content. At level 80 you can continue running through the world, exploring, completing dynamic events etc. But that’s not what i’ve been doing since I hit level 80 – I don’t know anybody who spends the majority of their time doing that after they have leveled up.

There are already dungeons and world bosses, sPvP and WvW. The idea that the addition of what would ultimately just be one more instanced type of content would cause the rest of the game to suddenly become devoid of players seems a little baseless. Sure I can imagine if the rewards were far too generous then farmers would flock to it. But can you really see a PvPer giving up on PvP forever just because they could be doing raids instead? What about a WvW player or a world boss enthusiast? If that were the case wouldn’t the explorable modes of Honor of the Waves, Crucible of Eternity and Arah along with Fractals already be doing this?

I was actually going to comment on the term Endgame in my post. My hope is that we can try to approach this discussion from the foundation of GW2 an not from expectations of what ‘Endgame’ means to different people.

What I would like to see is us taking the very best of the core of our game and then re-imagining what co-operative, strategic and challenging instanced content could be rather than retro fitting existing paradigms.

Some folks have been doing this, it would be great if we could all focus on this as the spring board for discussion.

While I am on the subject let’s also frame the discussion around 15 player’s with the ability to do encounters with less.

I don’t want to constrain us to much but I think this will be helpful.

Chris

Mizenhauer.6713:

There are level 80 dungeons. I think what is meant by that statement is that there are multiple ways to go about leveling and few hindrances to your character throughout the process. While the trait and NPE changed this to a degree, there is still great freedom here. In WoW I had to do quests and kill to progress. While hearts/events and kills still achieve that here, I’m still progressing a bit just by exploring parts of the map, mining/logging/gathering, by crafting, vistas, etc. I don’t think endgame (in the sense that it is for lvl 80 “geared” characters) nullifies the greatness of the experience along the way. I still like doing map completion just to walk around again, despite the fact that I have no legendary plans. The key possibility excites me, but it’s hardly my goal. Endgame is just cool max level stuff to challenge groups of players. As long as there is no gear treadmill, I cannot see any reason to rush through what was otherwise a really enjoyable experience. I did it once per profession, and I’m sure others have leveled up way more than 8 characters to 80.

Yep good points to. We can discuss GW2 raiding without going into levels though and that was what I was responding to with Cesmode’s post.

Chris

cesmode.4257:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Neon.5976:

Crystal Reid.2481:

So having said that where do you feel raiding falls (end game VS horizontal)?

I’d want to see Raids as end game content. Others are right in stating that other games have raids as end game content – it’s what they are normally categorised as. However I’m not sure I follow the logic where that therefore means they shouldn’t be end game content in GW2. It’s not like end game raids make a game worse or less appealing and I don’t want to be forced to go play a different game to play the type of content I like. It’s important to avoid getting hung up on whether GW2 should or shouldn’t be taking cues from other games and to focus on making raids they best they can be, regardless of where the ideas come from.

I’d like to see raids as end game content as challenging PVE content is something that is currently missing from the game and raids could the thing that fills the hole. It’s not as if end game raids make all other content redundant. In fact if they weren’t end game you could argue they could be so similar to other content such as dungeons or world bosses depending on their final form that they would start making other content redundant.

I suppose ultimately people want raids to be accessible. However if they are too easy they make the game as a whole less accessible. Those who want easier content, who already have a very diverse selection to choose from will get more, which is great for them. But those who want the challenging endgame PVE content that is currently lacking would be left out. In that sense by making raids more accessible, GW2 could potentially miss an opportunity to appeal to a wider audience.

Personally I would also want to see raids as end game content and by that I mean level 80 only.

Chris

Hi, I mentioned this in my first post a few moments ago. I could be out of date as well as this mind set that we were given early on…but isn’t the entire game ‘endgame’ ? Hop in, do whatever you want to do. No pressure, nada. Take your time, the whole thing is your oyster. When you start creating level 80 content only, ala raids, you segregate the playerbase much like other games where its then a rush to max level to do the raids. All of the gorgeous 1-80 content you have in this game becomes completely trivial and a stepping stone to the real game. You might as well just allow people to boost to 80 via potions or something and skip leveling all together because it becomes absolutely meaningless. A meaningless time sink. I didnt need 80 levels to learn my class. Maybe less than two dozen and I had it down. The rest was just enjoyment because the 1-80 content was nice. I leveled through it without any pressure. Put max level content in the game, and we will feel rushed to get to the real stuff. Its human nature.

For this reason, I do not think raids belong in GW2. But if they are to be implemented, I do have suggestions which I have shared

Yep this is an astute point. Let’s not worry about levels in this discussion then. However we should focus on the foundation of this content being challenging, requiring skill and strategic co-operation whilst being build around the core combat, movement and accessibility of GW2.

Chris

Elrey.5472:

I was reading about dodges and I can’t help to think of a perfect scenario where dodges are really useful: Twilight Arbor Aether, last boss – Clockheart.

If you go ranged, that fight touchs something that I can clearly say it’s one of the best things about GW2 combat system: Positional awareness. In that fight, the boss throws some gears that will always land on you. Your positional awareness is what will keep you alive, but a dodge to exit from a gear that will land on you in the last second is a really good concept. ¿Why? Because the damage will still be there after you dodge, you can’t just step back and stay where you were, that piece of land gets “corrupted” by the gear and you need to keep moving.

TL;DR Dodge should be used to improve mobility, not to become inmune to all damage. Achieving that might be a programming nightmare, but that’s my feedback. That’s where dodges fit.

Definitely on track in terms of how we should approach the brain storm.

Chris

Neon.5976:

Crystal Reid.2481:

So having said that where do you feel raiding falls (end game VS horizontal)?

I’d want to see Raids as end game content. Others are right in stating that other games have raids as end game content – it’s what they are normally categorised as. However I’m not sure I follow the logic where that therefore means they shouldn’t be end game content in GW2. It’s not like end game raids make a game worse or less appealing and I don’t want to be forced to go play a different game to play the type of content I like. It’s important to avoid getting hung up on whether GW2 should or shouldn’t be taking cues from other games and to focus on making raids they best they can be, regardless of where the ideas come from.

I’d like to see raids as end game content as challenging PVE content is something that is currently missing from the game and raids could the thing that fills the hole. It’s not as if end game raids make all other content redundant. In fact if they weren’t end game you could argue they could be so similar to other content such as dungeons or world bosses depending on their final form that they would start making other content redundant.

I suppose ultimately people want raids to be accessible. However if they are too easy they make the game as a whole less accessible. Those who want easier content, who already have a very diverse selection to choose from will get more, which is great for them. But those who want the challenging endgame PVE content that is currently lacking would be left out. In that sense by making raids more accessible, GW2 could potentially miss an opportunity to appeal to a wider audience.

Personally I would also want to see raids as end game content and by that I mean level 80 only.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Astralporing.1957:

Crystal Reid.2481:

Let’s assume that because raiding would be a very new type of content for the game that it’s possible for us to re-write the principles of the game that we have seen so far.

That’s a worrying statement. Basically, those principles you are saying might be re-written are the main reason lot of people came to this game in a first place. It’s the reason why lot of those people are still staying even if they are dissatisfied with some late design decisions. It’s also one of the very few things that make GW2 different from other MMORPGs.
GW2 has always been proud of inclusivity and general accessibility of its content to the whole player population. Do not change that.

To be clear Crystal is simply engaging in brain storming. The foundation of GW2 as we know it is the core foundation that we should be building our proposal from. This said broadening our field of view outside of this is a good way of finding good ideas and then working to apply them to new areas.

Chris

Broadening the focus of the game is great, but at a practical level, there are certain steps and changes you cannot make without damaging (or at least changing) longstanding ideals and principles. The nature of end game and your approach to cooperative inclusive gameplay are near the top of that list for many of us.

I think what the responses to her post are trying to point out is that those principles are important to us and how we play the game. Yes, grow (broaden) the game – give us many many fun new things to do – but do so without compromising (ie changing) those core principles.

Yep agreed. Let’s make sure our discussion is is founded in the core principals of our game and the core mechanics of combat and accessibility. Sorry for any confusion.

Chris

Astralporing.1957:

Crystal Reid.2481:

Let’s assume that because raiding would be a very new type of content for the game that it’s possible for us to re-write the principles of the game that we have seen so far.

That’s a worrying statement. Basically, those principles you are saying might be re-written are the main reason lot of people came to this game in a first place. It’s the reason why lot of those people are still staying even if they are dissatisfied with some late design decisions. It’s also one of the very few things that make GW2 different from other MMORPGs.
GW2 has always been proud of inclusivity and general accessibility of its content to the whole player population. Do not change that.

To be clear Crystal is simply engaging in brain storming. The foundation of GW2 as we know it is the core foundation that we should be building our proposal from. This said broadening our field of view outside of this is a good way of finding good ideas and then working to apply them to new areas.

Chris

Conncept.7638:

No point in adding raids until the combat system actually feels finished.

1. Fix the dodge system, there is no point in investing anything in defensive stats or the majority of the games defensive mechanics. And there is no chance at ever having build diversity so long as dodge trumps every single player, mob, and boss mechanic. It either needs to be reigned in as a part of the stat system, or it needs to be more rigidly limited as something entirely removed from the stat system. For the record, the former is a better idea in my opinion. Dodge could add to build diversity rather than subtract from it.

2. Make conditions a viable secondary damage source, make critical a less dependent secondary damage source. Conditions and critical damage are in seriously weird places, they are both supposed to be ‘sub-damage’ stats; sort of like healing is a sub-defense stat. Yet one is powerful enough to stand alone as a primary damage source, but only if you are literally alone and usually playing certain classes, and the other is viable in any play for any class but only when heavily parented by a primary stat. Conditions are largely a mechanical problem which I can’t say how to fix, critical on the other hand I can. Make critical damage a stand alone stat, no longer dependent on power, it builds up on its own, to be a viable damage source somewhat less powerful and consistent than power damage, similar to conditions. Additionally, like conditions, make it immune to armor as a secondary damage source should be.

3. Assuming those two ever get fixed, rework mobs and bosses to where they better take advantage of those mechanics. Less mechanics which one-shot in spite of your build and more which aim for certain players depending on their build, basically giving AI a strategy against players, this would particularly affect bosses but would slightly affect mobs as well.

Concerning raiding, to be honest, this is the first MMO where I have been able to stand maxing a character, and now I have five. So I have never participated in raid content. But this game really is awesome and if I would like to see such content anywhere it would be here. But GW2s most basic mechanics are still not ready for higher tier content, wurm and tequatl both proved that. If they add raids, just for them to be more boring, off scaled, defensive phase/burn phase DPS races endlessly repeated the same because of limiting combat mechanics, they’ll just be ignored like much of the existing content already is.

Hi Conncept,

Thanks for posting.

Your comments highlight what we are actually trying to achieve with this Raiding CDI.

We should not be designing a system that is the same as other games, we should instead be playing to the strengths of our own game where for example raid encounters can be designed around how our own combat system works which will create forcing functions that diversify player activities and encounters.

Let’s start with the core of control and combat of our game and build on that foundation rather than trying to take existing systems from elsewhere and retrofit them.

Chris

Morning All,

First of all awesome job. This CDI is going great with some great collaboration and some really good ideas.

I am going to continue reading this discussion before asking a few questions to help guide us. So keep it up and thanks for taking the time to be a member of the CDI.

Chris

Crystal Reid.2481:

Hi guys!

I thought I’d swing by and leave a quick introduction as I’ll be working with Chris to monitor this thread (and because I don’t post nearly as much as he does on the forums so most of you are unfamiliar with me in these CDI discussions).

I previously worked on some of the Fractals, Tequatl/Triple Trouble, and the Boss Blitz. Much like you all, I have an invested interest in raiding and I’m extremely excited to discuss what that could mean in Guild Wars 2!

There are already some really great discussions going on! I’m trying to get caught up on everything now and looking forward to reading more of your ideas.

Hey Crytsal.

Chris

Leablo.2651:

Chris, can you provide a baseline definition of “raid”? What exactly is the intention behind creating “raid” content that cannot already be expressed in terms of existing dungeons or fractals? Is it about creating another category of content that is gated to guilds?

Here you go:

‘…instanced co-operative group based ‘challenging’ content…’

Chris

A few have asked what we should start with. To re-iterate we should start by discussing what raiding could be in GW2 with the foundation based on the core pillars of our game.

So think about accessibility, how our combat works, how our progression works, and so on.

Thanks,

Chris

Conski Deshan.2057:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

Hey, is there any reason why raids wouldn’t just scale to your size? So like… 5-20 man, bring what you can, and it scales.

Very hard to get the balance we would want from this kind of content.

The experience we are looking for would also be diluted the more players you have in an instanced raid.

This said, let’s say the number was ten. We shouldn’t top folks from trying to beat content with 5 for example.

Chris

I agree, but I’d kinda hope that a raid wouldn’t be so easy that you could do it with half the numbers (I.E I’d expect it to be an accomplishment to 9 man a 10 man raid, not like soloing a dungeon like we have now).

It’s worth noting while I wouldn’t exclude players from attempting to do the content I would not expect someone to be able to just grab a pug and go successfully. The variability and risk should be too high to even attempt that along with poor coordination, you should know your teams strengths and weaknesses which is not clear with a pug.

‘Regarding’:

‘I agree, but I’d kinda hope that a raid wouldn’t be so easy that you could do it with half the numbers (I.E I’d expect it to be an accomplishment to 9 man a 10 man raid, not like soloing a dungeon like we have now)..’

Knowledge>Skill>Numbers (-:

So in my mind anyway I think it is fair to assume that once a team understands how to take down content and that they get better at playing together that they will not need as many to beat said content as time goes on (-:

Chris

timmyf.1490:

Hey, is there any reason why raids wouldn’t just scale to your size? So like… 5-20 man, bring what you can, and it scales.

Very hard to get the balance we would want from this kind of content.

The experience we are looking for would also be diluted the more players you have in an instanced raid.

This said, let’s say the number was ten. We shouldn’t stop folks from trying to beat content with 5 for example.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

hehe you have all been doing ninja work in the back ground (-:

Chris

In fairness, you were warned

Yer Sir/Maam!! You are correct (-:

Chris

Conski Deshan.2057:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

hehe you have all been doing ninja work in the back ground (-:

Chris

This is the cut down version,
I kind of expected this :P raiders tend to be the most used to organizing and planning so it makes sense they’d have planned out the raid discussion ahead of time. (I also have premade replies to three of the issue I predict will arise).

It is all good (-:

Chris

hehe you have all been doing ninja work in the back ground (-:

Chris

guardian.6489:

Hello, my name is Light Guardian Jack and I’m one of the leaders of TTS, I’ve talked with the other leaders about what we would want from a Raiding system and I’ve come up with this proposal. To me, Raiding has always existed in Guild Wars 2 just in the form of Tequatl, the Triple Trouble Wurm, and even some living world events in Season 1. I would like new tools to allow more players to experience the same Raids as us and to serve as a platform so that Anet can deliver new content for all the community who desires quality High-Player count experiences.

Proposal Overview
An expansion of tools to allow current “Mega-Organized Events” and old Living Story events to become Raids to allow more inclusive play.

Goal of Proposal
-Provide more tools so that old “Mega-Organized events” can be organized easier.
-Allow for a variety of content to be presented to the player without too much work for the Developers
-Reduce the barriers that normally block most players from Raids.
-Revive old classic living world events fans of the game are screaming for a return.

Proposal Functionality
-Guilds would be allowed to create their own separate instances for either certain current world events (Mega-Organized Events) or old living story events (Marionette, Tower of nightmares, Scarlet Hologram fight), this could use the current “Guild World Event” Spawner.
-This instance would allow player up to a certain cap (15-150 depending on the raid)(could have multiple sizes for the same raid).
-Once inside, if the Guild does not have enough players to fill the instance, they may use the LFG tool to allow players to connect directly into the map from the LFG tool itself (there might need to be restrictions on how to control who gets into the raid but there are several different ways you could do this).

Associated Risks
-Even with the LFG tool, players may find organizing with other players to be difficult if they are in a small guild.
-Recycled content may not feel “difficult” enough to satisfy hardcore raiders.
-Player may abandon Open-World events in favor of instanced ones and thus alienating those who can’t network as well.

I believe that such a system would give developers the freedom to develop a variety of raiding content of various player counts without a lot of restrictions and would address many of the issues players have with raiding in other games and in this current game. The Triple Trouble world event is fun but often hear how players are sick of doing the “overflow dance” to try to get into an organized instance and I hardly blame them. Instead of abandoning old content, build this new content onto of the old raiding system and old raiding communities to allow us to include even more players.

I also personally would enjoy many old Season 1 living story events to return as revamped Raids. The Tower of Nightmares could return as an epic 10-15 raid where you have to clear all the bosses to climb up the tower, the Battle of the Breachmaker could be revamped into a small 25 man raid with everyone split up fighting the 3 color knights in the beginning and coming together to fight scarlet and the Marionette could return. The possibilities are endless once we break apart from this 5 man dungeon or 150 man open world box.

I also want to point out the “Smaller” or “locked scaling” instances of the existing raid Mega-Bosses (Tequatl and Triple trouble) would be possible under this system and every raid new and old could in theory have multiple raid sizes with scaling in order to accommodate multiple sizes of guilds.

I believe that such a system would encourage more players of various skill levels to have a greater variety of content to indulge in with minimum barriers to entry.

Thanks TTS for your first proposal. Looking forward to chatting with you guys.

By the way, recently I was kicked from your guild (-: Would love a re-invite (-:

Chris

We will begin by talking about what we think instanced co-operative group based ‘challenging’ content could look like in GW2.

Of note this is a serious design group and initiative, therefore I will have no patience for arguments around who the most ‘leet’ gamers are or for lack of collaboration during conception of ideas.

With this in mind try to keep the following in mind for the design discussion. Our design should be based around:

- Accessibility.
- Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

Thanks,

Chris

Welcome fellow collaborators to the next phase of the Guild CDI topics.

*Phase 2 Topic Title: *How would you like to see Raiding function if this activity were part of GW2?

Below are some suggested formatting tools that will make the CDI more accessible if followed.

Suggested Idea Format
Proposal Overview

<A short description of the proposal that is being put forward>
Goal of Proposal

<What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal>

Proposal Functionality

<How does your proposal work in regard in relation to the current design of GW2>

Associated Risks

<What risks or problems can you foresee with this proposal which you would like to have assistance on from other members of the CDI>

Please try to be as concise as feasible with your proposal.

Suggested Discussion Approach
No suggested format.
Suggested Post Word Count: 200

CDI Rules:
1: This initiative is all about discussion.

2: We will not be disclosing information pertaining to what is currently in development.

3: Anger and emotion will have less impact than intelligent discussion.

4: Together we will share and evolve design philosophies which will impact how we develop the game moving forward.

5: Aggression and disrespect to a fellow community member or developer will not be tolerated, and in the extreme could lead to the shutting down of the initiative.

6: The teams primary focus is work toward the development of GW2 and therefore posting of discussion and commentary may not be as frequent as you like. Please do understand that the initiative is taken very seriously by us all and that we will be reading the discussions and joining in as often as it is possible to do so.

7: Off topic posts will be deleted.

Please note this is not a competition, either between yourselves or the developers in regard to one up man ship. The point of this Initiative is to work together to make the game better.

Note: We will disclose the ideas we do or don’t like as a group but we will not discuss schedules or timing around implementation.

P.S: I may wait a day before starting to post to allow the discussion to evolve naturally.

I will try to do summaries (CDI members feel free to help out to if you like that kind of thing) and will be constantly keeping up to date with the discussion. Just because I don’t post all the time doesn’t mean I am not reading it.

Finally note that the last CDI was the most collaborative and valuable CDI we have run. Let’s try to maintain this please.

Chris

Ok working on setting up the Raiding CDI.

Chris

Serophous.9085:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hey All,

Thanks for being so patient with me. And thank you for what has been the most productive and collaborative CDI to date. Long may it last…

I will be forwarding the link to the design team who have been keeping a watchful eye on our discussion and who will take the info and pertinent discussion and arm themselves with this knowledge as we move forward and evolve the game.

Right so here are the top 5 wishes for Guild Halls if they were to be included in GW2:

CDI Proposal Phase 1: Guilds QOL and Logistics

This is a proposal put together by the CDI group specifically for the Anet development team to read and discuss. This is not a commitment of work.

1: Customization and Identity: The ability to customize your guild hall in a manner that provides your guild with it’s own identity as well as a wide variety of guild hall customization progression.

2: Small Guilds: The ability for small guilds and large guilds to enjoy the progression and benefits of Guild Halls without either making progression to easy or two hard (potentially through scaling)

3: Guild Activities:The ability to progress Guild Halls by taking on activities of varying types with your guild.

4: GvG Access and Functionality: We are discussing this after Raids.

5: Town Convenience: The ability to have town services in the Guild Hall. (I just want to point out that I am not a big fan of this due to the impact it could have on our current Cities.)

I am going to leave the thread open for a while (few hours) and then sticky it on the CDI section at which point we will jump into the next phase discussion Raiding!

Once again thanks to you all. You are great!

Chris

I understand the issue with number 5 and I agree. I don’t want ALL conviences there, but only a few perhaps? Maybe the guild has to CHOOSE having two crafting benches, or something, but not allowed all of them

I think some kind of middle ground makes sense.

Chris

Zoso.8279:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hey All,

Thanks for being so patient with me. And thank you for what has been the most productive and collaborative CDI to date. Long may it last…

I will be forwarding the link to the design team who have been keeping a watchful eye on our discussion and who will take the info and pertinent discussion and arm themselves with this knowledge as we move forward and evolve the game.

Right so here are the top 5 wishes for Guild Halls if they were to be included in GW2:

CDI Proposal Phase 1: Guilds QOL and Logistics

This is a proposal put together by the CDI group specifically for the Anet development team to read and discuss. This is not a commitment of work.

1: Customization and Identity: The ability to customize your guild hall in a manner that provides your guild with it’s own identity as well as a wide variety of guild hall customization progression.

2: Small Guilds: The ability for small guilds and large guilds to enjoy the progression and benefits of Guild Halls without either making progression to easy or two hard (potentially through scaling)

3: Guild Activities:The ability to progress Guild Halls by taking on activities of varying types with your guild.

4: GvG Access and Functionality: We are discussing this after Raids.

5: Town Convenience: The ability to have town services in the Guild Hall. (I just want to point out that I am not a big fan of this due to the impact it could have on our current Cities.)

I am going to leave the thread open for a while (few hours) and then sticky it on the CDI section at which point we will jump into the next phase discussion Raiding!

Once again thanks to you all. You are great!

Chris

Chris thank you for putting so much time and effort into the CDI. I am very grateful for the opportunity to brainstorm with the developers of the best MMO out now and I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. Hope for many more years of collaboration and good vibes! God bless!

Thanks Zoso. It really has been awesome and kudos to you guys for spending so much time on the discussion. and I also hope that the CDI continues to grow and evolve and be a staple of our development philosophy.

Chris

Hey All,

Thanks for being so patient with me. And thank you for what has been the most productive and collaborative CDI to date. Long may it last…

I will be forwarding the link to the design team who have been keeping a watchful eye on our discussion and who will take the info and pertinent discussion and arm themselves with this knowledge as we move forward and evolve the game.

Right so here are the top 5 wishes for Guild Halls if they were to be included in GW2:

CDI Proposal Phase 1: Guilds QOL and Logistics

This is a proposal put together by the CDI group specifically for the Anet development team to read and discuss. This is not a commitment of work.

1: Customization and Identity: The ability to customize your guild hall in a manner that provides your guild with it’s own identity as well as a wide variety of guild hall customization progression.

2: Small Guilds: The ability for small guilds and large guilds to enjoy the progression and benefits of Guild Halls without either making progression to easy or two hard (potentially through scaling)

3: Guild Activities:The ability to progress Guild Halls by taking on activities of varying types with your guild.

4: GvG Access and Functionality: We are discussing this after Raids.

5: Town Convenience: The ability to have town services in the Guild Hall. (I just want to point out that I am not a big fan of this due to the impact it could have on our current Cities.)

I am going to leave the thread open for a while (few hours) and then sticky it on the CDI section at which point we will jump into the next phase discussion Raiding!

Once again thanks to you all. You are great!

Chris

Ok I am working on putting the top 3 priorities post together fyi.

Chris

Serophous.9085:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Sorry for not concluding this phase of the CDI today. I have time tomorrow so hang tight.

Chris

I just assumed you were in a candy corn coma….:p

Hi All,

Sorry for not concluding this phase of the CDI today. I have time tomorrow so hang tight.

Chris

Stormcrow.7513:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Stormcrow.7513:

By the time the meta data is analyzed, the raid material constructed and the content is released, there will be other games more interesting.
AKA Too little too late.

Yes Storm perhaps your right. Maybe we should not discuss raiding at all or any other evolution of the game for that matter.

Or perhaps we should have a think about the impact that CDI has had across all aspects of the game in what can only be described as a swift manner in development terms.

So why am I taking the bait? Because it is an opportunity once again to make a few things clear. CDI is of a massive benefit to the team and community, but if you don’t believe that then you don’t have to be part of it. But please don’t bring others down because your thoughts differ from theirs.

And to be clear this is in reference to a number of folks posting in the thread and not just you.

Finally the CDI is a dev tool and if folks cannot respect that and find it difficult to be collaborative and valuable in this kind of design environment then they will have their oppurtunitu to be part of the initiative taken away from them. Of course they will still be allowed to give their opinion elsewhere on the forums but not in the CDI.

In the Design Dept. we have three golden rules:

1: Postive attitude toward problem solving is a key requisite of a great designer.
2: collaboration is king
3: Respect for others is paramount.

Hopefully it isn’t to much of a stretch therefore to see how I also believe these tenants to be true for the CDI.

Thanks,

Chris

To be fair Chris, people have been waiting for over 2 years for end game raiding content.
I am sure you can understand the apathy and frustration that people have from that long of a wait.
I love GW2, I really do. The problem is the lack of new and exciting content.
I am wholeheartedly looking forward to the CDI and raid content in general but currently, the game(for me and probably others) has become stagnant.
I would rather have better monster AI and mechanics rather than the same stack and smack zerg raids anyday.
I hope that in the end the CDI helps Anet form a plan that the user base will find fun and entertaining.

Awesome. And I respect what you are saying.

The Raid CDI is going to be great and I look forward to doing into it with you Storm.

Chris

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris, need to ask something, and I know you probably do get reminded of it a lot:

Did you ever get that list of 10 things from CDIs which made it into the game? I don’t want to have to start sifting through them myself every time I hear “CDIs don’t do anything anyway”.

Hi Tobias,

Sort of. In that I hijacked a thread and asked the community to list what they had seen.

However I do still need to do it I know )-;

I am just struggling to find the time. But you are right it would probably be quicker for
Me to just list it than have to reply to some of the same type of posts repeatedly.

At least that is what I read into your comment.

Chris

A while ago the community asked me to be more direct and that was a great suggestion. It has improved the CDI and my relationship with the community as a whole. It is also really nice to know that the community in the most part respects the right for me to communicate as a ‘human’ and the respect is absolutely reciprocated. I love our community.

This said there are some who still get angry at me for being me and as they it ‘It is what it is’

Thanks for your thoughts,

Chris