Guild Wars 2

I got it from Helioz TC for doing my best to rep them during WvW adopt a dev.

Chris

Image 3

Image 2

As requested here are the images (-:

It is indeed handmade and hand painted by the man himself Mr Josh Foreman with a personal message on the bottom.

Josh F gave one to myself and Crystal R (spoilers Crystal hasn’t got hers yet) as a Christmas present and as a thanks for the team work on Jan Living World!

I thought I would share!

I love Josh and I am absolutely blown away!

Lore Item: Only 3 were made before the mold broke.

Josh will post some better pictures when he can.

Here are the rest I took:

http://imgur.com/PDR0hQ9
http://imgur.com/67HbRxg
http://imgur.com/QqzsSU1

Chris

Hi Sylv,

I hope your recovery goes well. Like Regina said we will be thinking of you. And a big hug to you, all of your friends and community for the support they have shown.

Chris

Hi All,

We are building a new home for the CDI and once it is complete we will finish of the Raiding CDI and move on the GvG CDI.

Chris

Ok closing the thread so I can get the proposal finished and then I will sticky the thread.

Thanks all.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This CDI will move on to the proposal stage tomorrow so get your top three in please folks.

Chris

With all respect, I don’t think we can put together a proposal that accurately represents what the community is looking for without first having the logistics conversation we touched on earlier in this thread -

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Let’s allow for more foundational discussion and then we can discuss two raid group sizes in terms of pros and cons.

Does that sound ok?

Chris

This is even more evident when you look back through the “top three” posts and note how many times people reference flexibility, accessibility and even scaling (despite being told it was set numbers). So this definitely isnt just one person (me) making noise. It is something that needs to be a part of any proposal.

I get that you are opposed to scaling (even though, if done in a limited fashion, I think it could work). That is why I proposed a different model – developing raids sizes of 8 and 12 concurrently. That way, as long as you have a minimum of 8, you would never need to find more than 3 people to fill out a raid group.

So the pros and cons of two raid group sizes:

The Pros

• People aren’t left out of organized raid nights because of logistics (math)
• Raids are accessible to everyone – the only limiting factor becomes skill.
• In line with the early vision of the game – fun, friendly environment where friends can play together.

The Cons

• Longer development cycles
• Makes it (VERY slightly) harder to balance difficult fights in the development phase

To put it simply, the pros outweigh the cons. Accessibility should be more important than both logistics and development time. If it takes you a month or two longer to add in a second size to accommodate the player base better, then I think many of us would GLADLY wait that time. Do it right the first time – give us raids, but give us ALL raids.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Blaeys.3102:

So if I have a raid night where i have two groups – one of 15 and the other with the remaining 8 (as an example), they are going to have the same chances to beat the encounters if the players involved are at roughly the same skill level?

If that is true, then I’m happy. That would be putting skill at a more important level than numbers.

So this is a very clever question which does need to be answered regardless of raid number sets. If it’s ok though let’s discuss it when we get to raid number set discussions.

Chris

This is another issue we haven’t addressed (even though 2 raid sizes would address it well).

I know this takes away from the 3-point post, but it is something we agreed to readdress prior to the proposal phase.

I would hate to see raid development move forward and turn into something that feels, not just unfriendly, but completely different from the rest of the game. You have a dedicated player base that LOVES this game (with me at the very top of the list). Raiding can be done – but it needs to be done in the same spirit with which you’ve approached the game as a whole.

Sorry Blaeys but the CDI did not run its course due to lack of maturity and lack of collaboration. I am therefore asking folks for their thoughts based on what we did discuss.

Chris

This CDI will move on to the proposal stage tomorrow so get your top three in please folks.

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Please list your top three priorities for raiding (Challenging, Instanced, Cooperative, Content)

Mine are:

1: Knowledge>
2: Skill>
3: Raid Group Setup

I will leave the thread open until folks have had a chance to put there top three forward and then I will put forward a proposal on behalf of the CDI group to the team.

Thanks,

Chris

Le Bump.

Get your top three priorities in folks. We will be closing this thread on Monday and shortly after the GvG CDI will begin!

Chris

Boottspurr.9184:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Please list your top three priorities for raiding (Challenging, Instanced, Cooperative, Content)

Mine are:

1: Knowledge>
2: Skill>
3: Raid Group Setup

I will leave the thread open until folks have had a chance to put there top three forward and then I will put forward a proposal on behalf of the CDI group to the team.

Thanks,

Chris

I’m a bit confused about the question. Do you want our top three priorities for how raids are designed? Because by the example priorities you gave, it looks like you mean just the top three priorities for a team to be able to beat a raid…

Otherwise wouldn’t “Knowledge>Skill>Group Setup” just be one design priority? :P

Hi Boot,

Your top three priorities can be anything you like as long as they pertain to raiding.

Chris

Hi All,

Please list your top three priorities for raiding (Challenging, Instanced, Cooperative, Content)

Mine are:

1: Knowledge>
2: Skill>
3: Raid Group Setup

I will leave the thread open until folks have had a chance to put there top three forward and then I will put forward a proposal on behalf of the CDI group to the team.

Thanks,

Chris

dlonie.6547:

I was under the impression that argumentative/off-topic/sphincter-gazing posts would be admonished/deleted to keep the discussion on point?

Personally, I’d rather see that plan put into action instead of shutting down the discussion. More challenging instanced content is something that the game has sorely needed for a while, and I’d hate to see the CDI shut down over a few narrowminded individuals.

Hi,

I am replying to you but talking to all those as well who have been frustrated with the lack of collaboration and maturity in this CDI.

We take the CDI very seriously and it is clear that whilst most CDIs have been extremely valuable and born lots of fruit that the maturity and professional levels required can not be ensured by the guidelines I have set.

I am therefore going to request that the CDI moving forward have its own area where anyone can enter and join in the design sessions but that those who find it hard to focus on the spirit and rules of the CDI can be locked out.

This is the only fair approach because the rules of our forums are different to those of the CDI and thus behavior that would be deemed acceptable on the forums may not be in the CDI and thus one should not be held to the same rules across both areas.

I will update when I have more info. Thanks to all those who participated and followed the rules and please understand that tons of useful info was gleaned and that your efforts were not wasted.

Chris

Morning,

Ok I have been up all night reading the posts and thinking about this CDI.

To be frank this is not a good CDI, specifically because whilst some folks are trying to be collaborative and have valuable discussion others are just bullying with their different agendas.

I have always said that if a CDI loses its value on both sides that it will be stopped.

So I am at some what of a loss. I can’t tell anymore if it is of value to this group. Whilst it certainly has been valuable for us it has been extremely time consuming to get to the good stuff.

So I will leave it up to you folks. If you feel you can work more collaboratively then by all means let me know that you want to carry on.

If you feel that it is a lost cause then I will ask for everyone’s top three priorities for raiding and call it a day.

I want to say thank you very much to all those who tried to follow the rules of the CDI and who had a healthy discussion. I also wanted to say a big thank you to TTS and DnT. We appreciate your feedback.

Chris

spoj.9672:

Its actually very encouraging to see Chris understanding and agreeing with NoTriggers posts. Many of us have had our doubts about whether the devs are on the same page as us or atleast understand our side even as a minority. So thanks for the encouraging comments Chris and Crystal. I now believe good raid content can come out of this.

We should probably move away from the gear discussion though as that always invites arguments. So lets move it back on topic.

I don’t mind us continuing to discuss this area at all. I just think (or hope) that we now have a good spring board to launch from to discuss the tenets of what would make a great encounter now.

And sorry for not jumping in earlier, I care very much about raiding and have done so for coming on 20 years now. I just didn’t want to cramp everyone’s style.

Chris

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.

first of all thats a content problem. the pve content we have is not really challenging and difficult to beat, except when you are soloing stuff.

now let me give you one example.
imagine in a 15 man raid a boss has a really tight enrage timer and 15 players are required to use dps gear and optimal rotations to kill the boss before the enrage timer hits.
now in this fight there is healing required, more than just your personal healing skill.
how will players deal with this? they will heal each other with water fields, defensive boons.
so EVERYONE in the raid will be required to provide as much support as possible, teamwork and on top of that dps.
or in other words, everyone has to play well and pull their weight.
and all of that happens while players are dodging dangerous hits and abilities.

now lets say 12 people are required to use optimal rotations and dps gear and you have 3 dedicated healer. will this make the encounter more challenging and fun?
it will actually reduce teamwork, coordination and the requirement that players try to play as good as possible, because focusing on only one thing is much easier to do, and doesnt need as much teamwork.

As presented, situation 1 is preferable.

NoTrigger.8396:

actually situation 1) is exactly why i love the gw2 combat system.

people always say “just dps, just dps, just dps”. what they dont understand, its exactly the other way around.
its support, support, support with the nice bonus that you can deal alot of dps on top of that at the same time.

I agree. The problem is there is that they’re looking at the stats the game has to offer, the builds people recommend, and they only see: DPS focus, DPS focus, DPS focus.
That’s what causes them to wonder: What about the rest?
What they don’t realise, is that the rest is already so powerful it doesn’t need boosting, regardless of whether this is even possible or not.

And I do strongly believe it should be possible to have both a high DPS output and a high support value at the same time.

NoTrigger.8396:

how much dps you can deal on top of providing tons of support depends ONLY on how good the player is at the game. a player who doesnt react properly, is inexperienced, and doesnt know when and what to dodge needs defensive gear to survive.
a great player doesnt need defensive gear, because he is learning how to react to X situation faster, how to react proberly etc………

this is actually just amazing. because its entirely based on player skill.

Now that, I fundamentally disagree with. I don’t think anyone needs defensive gear because they are a bad player. I think they could learn to play great without it just fine.

I’m all for skilled play, but, and I may be wrong here, I also think tanky players should be skill-based rather than just stats. I’d like their stats to be meaningful in the same way DPS stats are, by emphasing skill over just standing there and getting hit.

NoTrigger.8396:

i dont know if you understand what im trying to explain here. but i can recommend every player who thinks “only dps dps dps, no support, no cc” to learn to solo arah paths in berserker gear. once you have done that and reached a certain skill level in gw2, you will look at the game and the combat system from a very different perspective that not alot of players seem to understand even after 2 years of playing the game.

Yes, I may secretly be mentally handicapped or something that prevents me from understanding other human beings.

I can recommend learning to solo Arah to anyone. It’s a lot of fun, and it doesn’t cost you anything now repair costs are no more.

I don’t know if I agree about PVT AOE Heal wars just standing there. It depends on the encounter and I certainly can’t just stand still in fractals (-:

Anyway even if I am wrong we have got to the point in the discussion where I think we can agree that any perceived issues can be handled by the design of the encounter and the balance thereof.

Chris

Naetell.3815:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Naetell.3815:

phys.7689:

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

its not that because you wear berserk, you are automatically a better player. Its that the better you are, the less need you have for the defense.

You say with your tank gear, the encounter is too easy, and you cannot die. What is the advantage of tank gear?
Tank gear in this game exists primarily to set your handicap in battle. the more tank gear you have the more mistakes you can make. I am not saying every player in tank gear does, but thats the main advantage of it.

I’d argue against that on the premise of creating a fake difficulty.
The game is plenty forgiving even in full glass. The prevalence of tank gear in the game (and this is simplifying and generalising it by a lot) gives players the idea that it is not only okay, but expected to wear some amount of it. There is no reason to have more than 100% survivability.
Better yet, if the game is built on the premise that all damage can be avoided, then this tanky gear is hampering people’s learning process by reducing the need to learn how to dodge.
From that point of view, it is hard to defend tanky gear at all.

But as a PVT War my goal is to ensure the rest of the group doesn’t get downed so we can win as my DPS is poor. I love this role and even when I dodge effectively there are still plenty of attacks that catch me off guard. So therefore I see my armor and traits as a way to better support my group.

It doesn’t matter if i can stay alive ad infinitum (which I can’t). What matters is that I can help my group to help us all win.

Chris

The percieved problem here is not that the PVT warrior (heal shouts) is an ineffective build. (It’s not, it’s one of the most powerful support builds in the game, I’d argue)
The point is that the sacrificed DPS do not mathematically align with the support gained. You could use the same build in PPF or VTP gear with the same level of support given.
Theoretically, the dodge alone + the self-healing ability you have are enough to make it through an encounter as encounter time drops the more DPS you deal. The longer any encounter takes, the greater the theoretical chance becomes of anyone making a mistake, and the added survivability mattering.
Tequatl as an encounter tries to balance the equation by taking Precision and Ferocity out of the equation, and that works to some degree, but this does tend to annoy DPS players.

Now the real questions and issues begin when looking at stats that actually do matter for support. Healing and Boon Duration exist, they are on gear. (Not many in the case of BD, admittedly) However, these stats do not affect support in the matter DPS is affected by gear. Instead, sufficient support is added without these stats according to many experienced dungeon players.

But maybe this is just me thinking too much like a theorycrafter than as an actual player.

I think your comments are well made. And therefore what I would say is that the notion of support, co-operation and a role is very much dependent on the kind of encounter that is built then with a delta of skill and armor and traits that is not as important as knowledge and co-operation in said raid encounter but important none the less.

I suppose that this is the core of the approach I would like us to discuss.

knowledge>skill>character setup>group number

And the reason group number is last is because I think that by following the paradigm we discussed and in the confines of this proposal that player’s could complete a raid with less than the recommended amount by increasing their acumen in Knowledge>skill and character setup.

Chris

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.

first of all thats a content problem. the pve content we have is not really challenging and difficult to beat, except when you are soloing stuff.

now let me give you one example.
imagine in a 15 man raid a boss has a really tight enrage timer and 15 players are required to use dps gear and optimal rotations to kill the boss before the enrage timer hits.
now in this fight there is healing required, more than just your personal healing skill.
how will players deal with this? they will heal each other with water fields, defensive boons.
so EVERYONE in the raid will be required to provide as much support as possible, teamwork and on top of that dps.
or in other words, everyone has to play well and pull their weight.
and all of that happens while players are dodging dangerous hits and abilities.

now lets say 12 people are required to use optimal rotations and dps gear and you have 3 dedicated healer. will this make the encounter more challenging and fun?
it will actually reduce teamwork, coordination and the requirement that players try to play as good as possible, because focusing on only one thing is much easier to do, and doesnt need as much teamwork.

actually situation 1) is exactly why i love the gw2 combat system.

people always say “just dps, just dps, just dps”. what they dont understand, its exactly the other way around.
its support, support, support with the nice bonus that you can deal alot of dps on top of that at the same time.

how much dps you can deal on top of providing tons of support depends ONLY on how good the player is at the game. a player who doesnt react properly, is inexperienced, and doesnt know when and what to dodge needs defensive gear to survive.
a great player doesnt need defensive gear, because he is learning how to react to X situation faster, how to react proberly etc………

this is actually just amazing. because its entirely based on player skill.

i dont know if you understand what im trying to explain here. but i can recommend every player who thinks “only dps dps dps, no support, no cc” to learn to solo arah paths in berserker gear. once you have done that and reached a certain skill level in gw2, you will look at the game and the combat system from a very different perspective that not alot of players seem to understand even after 2 years of playing the game.

I agree 100%. I now don’t understand why folks are arguing.

Cris

Naetell.3815:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

And I absolutely agree.

There are plenty of ways with our core mechanics that we can make player’s have roles. There are many ways we can make player’s provide a true support role. And there are many ways that we can create new types of raid encounter experiences based on our core mechanics.

Chris

I agree, and I can theorise various paths myself, but there’s this idea amongst players that gear is by and large useless because of the action-based combat system, and therefor gear does not add to roles.
Personally, I think it’s the combination of various factors that have led to this, but I’d like to challenge people’s ideas about what they think is in the game, compared to what there actually is in the game. GW2 has a foundation that allows for more than the same old rehashed roles, and I believe it can be made possible for all classes to play as any role. And I think that ultimately, it should be a combination of skills+traits+gear+encounter that should determine someone’s role, with the ability to swap 3 of those out any time they are out of combat.

Right ok. So I am now up to speed.

It is 100% true that gear and traits don’t make that much difference vs. the ability to read the encounter and be mobile due to the way much of the game was balanced (on purpose). Gear and traits do make players way more efficient though in the same encounters and there are many examples of this all of over youtube.

There are a number of encounters in the game where your traits and gear do make a difference this is 100% provable and it is this paradigm on which challenging co-ordinated encounters be built from. It is simply a case of dialing up the challenge and creating encounters that require strategy and teamwork. The core is 100% there and there is a huge amount of opportunity here to make really unique forms of raiding.

We as a group just can’t seem to get passed this hump though and are spinning our wheels.

Chris

Naetell.3815:

phys.7689:

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

That’s simply not true. You have an literal invulnerability button and a huge health pool while downed that gives your fellow players plenty of time to pick you back up, if you haven’t gained a second wind from channeling 4 or killing a mob yet, that invalidates any sense of 1 mistake = dead.
In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.
I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

its not that because you wear berserk, you are automatically a better player. Its that the better you are, the less need you have for the defense.

You say with your tank gear, the encounter is too easy, and you cannot die. What is the advantage of tank gear?
Tank gear in this game exists primarily to set your handicap in battle. the more tank gear you have the more mistakes you can make. I am not saying every player in tank gear does, but thats the main advantage of it.

I’d argue against that on the premise of creating a fake difficulty.
The game is plenty forgiving even in full glass. The prevalence of tank gear in the game (and this is simplifying and generalising it by a lot) gives players the idea that it is not only okay, but expected to wear some amount of it. There is no reason to have more than 100% survivability.
Better yet, if the game is built on the premise that all damage can be avoided, then this tanky gear is hampering people’s learning process by reducing the need to learn how to dodge.
From that point of view, it is hard to defend tanky gear at all.

But as a PVT War my goal is to ensure the rest of the group doesn’t get downed so we can win as my DPS is poor. I love this role and even when I dodge effectively there are still plenty of attacks that catch me off guard. So therefore I see my armor and traits as a way to better support my group.

It doesn’t matter if i can stay alive ad infinitum (which I can’t). What matters is that I can help my group to help us all win.

Chris

Ohoni.6057:

Ohoni, it sounds like you’re opposed to any sort of unique rewards for raiding. It also sounds like you’re opposed to raiding in a general sense.

So now that we have established that you disagree with the concept of raiding in guild wars 2, could you kindly exit the discussion so people who wish to be constructive and topical can continue on with the Raid CDI?

I don’t disagree with the idea of raiding in GW2, so long as it is NOT like raiding in other games, ie “pinnacle content” that all players are expected to participate in eventually if they want to be relevant to the endgame. I think that if they want to add raiding as a purely optional element to the game, that’s fine, I just want assurances that they have no intention of shoehorning non-raider players into the raid portion of the game by requiring raiding to achieve various general milestones.

I believe that it’s important to have this voice clearly expressed in the CDI discussion, because raiding is not just about those who participate in it, it also has to do with all the other players in the game. If at any time the devs would care to make a clear stance on this issue, making it absolutely clear that there will not be ANY rewards that can only be earned via raiding, and that there will be no efforts to coerce non-raiders into the raiding element of the game (beyond some minimal “try it once, get a prize, and then you can move on if it’s not for you” element), then I’m happy to bow out, but until then, I think it’s important to always keep the holistic game in mind.

If the question is should there be raid exclusive rewards then I think we should absoluty be ok to discuss this. This is the whole point of the CDI.

This said not everyone is going to agree in a healthy debate and that is perfectly ok. Lets just be respectful in our discussions (And this is aimed at everyone and not aimed at anyone in particular)

Chris

Naetell.3815:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

That’s simply not true. You have an literal invulnerability button and a huge health pool while downed that gives your fellow players plenty of time to pick you back up, if you haven’t gained a second wind from channeling 4 or killing a mob yet, that invalidates any sense of 1 mistake = dead.
In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.
I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

Do you remember the first times you did Tequatl as a glass cannon?

Are you saying that you were never downed in the front raid group?

Now that folks understand how to use the turrets and warriors drop banners do you die less?

Chris

The new tequatl was an interesting experience the first days actually. I first went on my full glass thief, figured out the jump or dodge over waves thing to melee him, and then promptly got downed by a poison cloud. Other players rushed in to help me up, and died as well because of it.

It was an experience unlike any other I’d had in GW2 before that point.

Ultimately, Tequatl’s timer ran out and people lamented the ‘insane difficulty’, but I was laughing all the way from waypoint to dragon and back.

I then logged on my guard, also in full glass, and I found the clouds weren’t as deadly anymore. Aegis + learning to anticipate the clouds made it a lot easier. Stability for the waves was a good one too.
Still, bone wall happened and at some point we got massacred by a group of risen attacking in the back of the, now mostly ranged, zerg.

From then on, I’ve always ran Tequatl on my full glass guard. I didn’t even bother buying him soldiers gear or anything, and rather than lamenting with the others in chat, I grabbed a turret and tried to learn how to use it as quickly as possible.
I then joined Gandara’s front-line groups in killing Tequatl, and after the patch was over and most went on to do other things, me and two others remained and founded DV, for the express purpose of coordinating these events.
I learned how to lead, I wrote one of the tutorials on turret use, and we went on.

Am I still downed while leading Tequatl sometimes? Sure, and I always make sure to swim back as soon as possible if there are no instant resses around.
Do I feel like I don’t have enough health to lead the front-line zerg even in full glass? No, I feel fine actually. The clouds don’t oneshot, and standing still in them really shouldn’t happen, especially with wall of reflection covering everyone.

Do I die less than at first? Of course, that’s the nature of learning an encounter. The same should hold true for raiding.

And I absolutely agree.

There are plenty of ways with our core mechanics that we can make player’s have roles. There are many ways we can make player’s provide a true support role. And there are many ways that we can create new types of raid encounter experiences based on our core mechanics.

And therefore to be more precise the specific point i am making is that I don’t get downed (PVT Shout Heal War) (often) (In Teq) and certainly no more or less than I did when the encounter first came out. This is because my build is the way it is. However I soon realized that this was of no use to me without supporting the rest of the forward raid group and that was awesome! Because raiding should be all about co-operative challenging content, and that when you finally complete it the whole group is screaming with joy because it was a culmination of everyone’s knowledge and skill.

Chris

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

And as some guidance. We can tune mobs to behave and require any strategy we want in raiding. This is why I asked that we take the core mechanics of GW2 and build on that and not look to other games or the current balance of our open world maps to dictate encounter strategy and player behavior.

Chris

Chris,

Maybe it would help if you give a little definition regarding what you mean by core mechanics. Are we on the right track with this kind of approach – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/25#post4535356 ?

If not, maybe a little direction and examples will spur the conversation.

Yep that is exactly what I mean.

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

That’s simply not true. You have an literal invulnerability button and a huge health pool while downed that gives your fellow players plenty of time to pick you back up, if you haven’t gained a second wind from channeling 4 or killing a mob yet, that invalidates any sense of 1 mistake = dead.
In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.
I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

Do you remember the first times you did Tequatl as a glass cannon?

Are you saying that you were never downed in the front raid group?

Now that folks understand how to use the turrets and warriors drop banners do you die less?

Chris

And note these are honest questions and not me being rude.

Chris

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

That’s simply not true. You have an literal invulnerability button and a huge health pool while downed that gives your fellow players plenty of time to pick you back up, if you haven’t gained a second wind from channeling 4 or killing a mob yet, that invalidates any sense of 1 mistake = dead.
In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.
I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

Do you remember the first times you did Tequatl as a glass cannon?

Are you saying that you were never downed in the front raid group?

Now that folks understand how to use the turrets and warriors drop banners do you die less?

Chris

And as some guidance. We can tune mobs to behave and require any strategy we want in raiding. This is why I asked that we take the core mechanics of GW2 and build on that and not look to other games or the current balance of our open world maps to dictate encounter strategy and player behavior.

Chris

FYI If we can’t remain civil with one another in discussion then I will shut the thread.

Chris

Hi All,

Just wanted to let you know that I am behind on the thread and am playing the release today.

I will catch up tomorrow.

Chris

Right getting back to the game.

Chris

Zesbeer.8365:

Crystal Reid.2481:

Thanks for bumping this and bringing to my attention. That is definitely a cool idea, but of course it does touch a little on the topic of gear progression. So here are some more questions for you with regards to your proposal:

• Is Legendary armor better than Ascended armor stat wise?
• Can this legendary armor be obtained anywhere else in the game?
• How do we prevent the introduction of Legendary armor from invalidating players who spent a lot of time/money crafting their Ascended armor?
• Is this a drop from raid encounters, or is it obtained through a “raiding reward track”?

I think you can see where I’m going with this. Ascended armor is already a pretty hotly debated topic because it did introduce a very slight vertical progression to the game.

Honestly its kind of unfair for the majority of the player base to talk about legendary armor on page 22 of a raid cdi (I think it deserves its own cdi).

any how my thoughts are thus on legendary armor:

• Is Legendary armor better than Ascended armor stat wise?

as Colin Johanson said BEFORE the game was released:

Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game.

I think that statement was what made people mad about ascended armor being added to the game in the first place because at launch you had exotics and they were supposed to be the bis.

On this same thread the sat switching should be added to ascended armor for the very reason that legendary were suppose to be just a unique looking skins like how prestigious armor in gw1 worked.

• Can this legendary armor be obtained anywhere else in the game?

Yes you should be able to get it any place in the game Is also a huge reason why ascended armor is a problem in the game the ways you can get it are from extremely rare rng drops or from crafting it which is not something wvw players necessarily want to be doing (most of them want to be playing wvw)

• How do we prevent the introduction of Legendary armor from invalidating players who spent a lot of time/money crafting their Ascended armor?

Make ALL Ascended armor be the precursor to legendary this allows for precursor crafting for legendary armor and also reduces the rng involved in getting it.

• Is this a drop from raid encounters, or is it obtained through a “raiding reward track”?

as per the second question nope it should be acquirable anyplace in the game a wvw player should not have to do raids to be able to get legendary armor.

Once again and no personal negativity meant Zesbeer, the specifics of reward types are not necessary for this CDI.

Thanks,

Chris

cesmode.4257:

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but curious what people think about environmental objects being used in raids(or any content for that matter..but specifically raids). For example you see a “rock” or a “piece of scrap metal”. When you run around the world you see these objects you can interact with..pick up a piece of rusty metal and swing it at something for …pitiful damage *. Always wondered why these were in the game if they were so weak.

In any case, what about using this feature in a raid. We see something similar in a Fractal where we need to pick up boulders or something to break a shield. Something similar and even expand upon it for a raid.

Thoughts?

Yes we should definitely discuss the environment in regard to encounters.

Bundles, interactions etc.

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

Bumping so we can stay focused on the two topics.

Chris

Friendly reminder that this particular CDI is about Raiding and the specific topics are listed above.

Whilst it is fine to discuss types of rewards etc we shouldn’t be spending time drilling into functionality of said reward types.

Thanks,

Chris

P.S: Go Hawks!

phys.7689:

Crystal Reid.2481:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Proposal Overview
Potential Raid Mechanics: Part 6 Profession specific interactions

Goal of Proposal
To make use of the unique abilities of specific professions.

Proposal Functionality
I see two levels of functionality:

Soft Profession requirements and Hard profession requirements, soft, its ideal to have this class but at least one other class can carry out the same task. Hard: only one class can carry out this task and is based on the classes theme.

Soft Profession mechanics
-Stealth, Example: You must make it from one end of a corridor to another while stealthed the whole way or an instakill occurs. Can’t be bypassed by mistform or other invuln mechanics.
Another possibility is a stealth portion of a raid where you want to make it through an area unseen with patrols and the like.

-Elements and fields: Water/heal fields to douse flames or activate effects, Fire fields to ignite traps or activate explosives, Holy fields for god statue activations etc.

-Reflection: To shield from an explosive blastwave or redirect a magical blast to blow open a door etc.

Hard profession mechanics
Necromancer: Raise a corpse to get information/password/open a locked room from inside etc.

Guardian: Use holy magic to activate a god statue/complete a ritual/ seal a passage preventing reinforcements.

Ranger: Can make use of a fixed position sniper rifle to hit a switch/take out a target of opportunity at some point to assist in progressing.

Engineerer: Can activate disabled golems/rig a door to blow etc.

Elementalist: Can make use of magical reagents, Activate elemental doors, converse with elementals etc.

Mesmer: Can jedi mind trick some goon into opening a door / reveal a disguised illusion, do the kasmeer portal trick.

Thief: Can Identify a trap, bribe for information , locate a weakness.

Warrior: Kinda at a loss for this one since a warriors kinda meant to be the generic everyman. can use brute strength to open something/ force their way through something at some point?

Associated Risks
-Hard class requirements can result in the same lf healer issue in other games.

There’s some very cool stuff in here, including a few I may or may not have prototyped out in my spare time. This specifically touches on Chris’ note about mechanics.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

How do others feel about this? Are these types of mechanics are the way to go to circumvent the lack of Trinity in the game? It’s not about tanks/healers, it’s about condi/reflect teams (similar to the Jungle Wurm).

no, these type of mechanics are way too specific, you will be waiting around for mesmer just like you used to be for a healer. In wurm its all good because you will have many people, some will fill the gaps, but out of 10-15 people?

its all good that reflection might be useful, but that shouldnt be the only way to handle a problem ( or so much better that all other methods suck)

Yep there should always be multiple win scenarios. That said laying out the foundation like this is very good and the CDI group should build from it.

As you find challenges turn them into opportunities and build one layer at a time starting from the foundation.

Chris

cesmode.4257:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

Sure thing, Chris. I feel like the discussion of rewards progression in particular could use some guidance. I had suggested earlier a system by which players could earn Legendary Raid Armor through a progression system. I was expecting a lot of strong reactions, but I mostly heard silence.

Curious as to what others think. Personally, I think raids need unique (read: can only be earned in raids) reward skins that are earned either through RNG or a progression system. (Meaning: you can get them as a drop if you’re lucky, but you get a fixed-effort backup option as well.)

Edit: here was that post. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/4529755

Crystal is taking point on progression and I am taking point on foundational design.

I am sure she will see your post soon.

Her discussion area is doing better than mine (-: so yes maybe it is time to focus in on some of the ideas in that area.

Chris

P.S: Note the Seahawks game is on soon and I will afk!!

The discussion on foundational design is a bit more wordy. If I am correct, youre asking us to think of encounter ideas and mechanicsfor you, which becomes a lengthy post for us and I kind of thought you wanted us to be a bit more concise. Not many people want to type out 5000 word posts For this reason, I made a post earlier on some encounters in other games that were pretty nifty.

I think GW2 has all of the tools in place to make a mechanic-rich raid.

Combo fields are something that are woefully under utilized. Things like raid-wide debuffs that are dispellable via combo fields are at the core of your combat. In traditional games, you would have healers casting ‘purge’ or some other debuff removing skill on individuals. In GW2, have a Guardian, or some other appropriate class, drop a combo field..call it out on teamspeak and have players blow it up (metaphorically) to remove conditions. Currently, out of all of the combat, world bosses and dungeons in the game…nothing requires this. Nothing that I can think of off of the top of my head. But this is where you need to focus your efforts.

Dodging can also play a critical role for avoiding damage. I can’t remember the boon name , but whatever class can cast a field that increases dodge-energy regen rate or whatever. (I really cannot think today ).

The DPS and mechanics around DPS are kind of straight forward and you can do some interesting things, but I think this game has enough content that is based around burning mobs down. I really think you need to focus your efforts more on the support roles.

I can’t be sure, but are there not any “taunting” abilities for classes like warrior or guardian? “tanking” or other protective measures for your group will be difficult to discuss because there is no true tanking in the game. You can have a class build around taking a few extra punches but in the traditional sense, you’re not going to have one person taking all the hits like a normal tank. Again, for this reason, I would first focus on bringing the support roles/builds/playstyles to the forefront and finally letting those staff guardians, staff elementalists, etc..shine.

Yes? No? Maybe so?

Hi Cesmode,

Penny and Guardian both showed examples of how to take foundational design and break it out and build on it. I think they forgot dodge though (-: (I may be wrong).

Pretty much anything in game design can be written concisely (-: The trick is to discuss, concept, and execute game design one layer at a time at every stage of development.

Chris

guardian.6489:

TPenny.5071:

RAID ROLES

Build diversity should be promoted through event / boss mechanics.

There are lots of builds out there but so far content has directed to time efficiency with all berserker gear and damage builds. Some say it’s due to the effectiveness of dodges, agis, reflects and how they are just as effective with defensive stats as offensive ones. To farther variety skills should scale with stats but this is a topic for another thread in the future.

It’s no longer as simple as tank, heal and DPS. Guildwars2 doesn’t have traditional roles but each profession dips its toe in several pools.

• Melee damage: Being in melee range is the highest damage but also the most risky.

• Range Damage: Range is for situations where it’s not possible to melee or you are playing it safe to counter an event mechanic.

• Condition damage: Condition vulnerable enemies, such as wurm husks. Removal of the condition duration from the unshakable buff and have unique player conditions.

• Kiting: Aggro of the boss or mobs should feel less random, maybe focusing their gaze onto a specific player through mechanics. (ooze attractant)

• Runner: When things require you move fast this is your guy! See that button? Go press it! Pressure plate over there? He’s on it!

• Reviver: A troop of people able to pick up the downed as fast as possible, and have the best chance of reviving a fully downed player. (not sure)

• Support boons: Primary focus on keeping up vital boons for survival such as: agis, vigor and protection also using appropriate combo fields.

• Support reflects: Supports the raid by placing well aimed and timed reflect spells to counter projectiles.

• Support Condition removal: Exactly what it says on the tin, removes conditions were applicable.

• Crowd Control: Slowing and knocking back of enemies running towards your more vulnerable players.

Encounters should be designed with every role in mind and carefully consider what each could do before excluding one.

I’m going to quote this and say I agree with the list provided and it should be used in discussions about role design and maybe even in future gear stat design. Also I want to use it and apply it to Triple trouble.

Condi-team roles: Condition Damage, kiting, Crowd control.
The condition damage roles on husks which can only take substantial damage from conditions. Not only that but they need to use a pull and proper kiting to keep them as far from the zerg as possible.

Reflect team: Support reflects.
Reflect team reflects eggs and damages the wurm when it goes down, not much to be said.

Zerg mini-roles:

Warriors: Reviver.
I think the thing my Zerg constantly has to remind me of, is to number off the war banners on Warriors, being able to revive a small group of players instantly is important to organize.

Guardians: Support Boons. I know TTS tends to run stand your ground and Hallowed Ground as an emergency measure against husks (some other guilds skip out on hallowed ground). They also can provide aegis on phase 2 for the Wurm’s jump attack.

Various professions: Support boons (might). Fire fields and blast finishers!

And yes I know most of these are done with Zerker gear anyways. However that I think that indicates we need new gear stat sets that cater to these roles with stats like Boon duration and such if we want some diverse gear sets.

Excellent Penny and Guardian.

This is exactly what I was hoping to see in terms of how to build the foundation and discussions around it.

Chris

maddoctor.2738:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

Bumping so we can stay focused on the two topics.

Chris

Is loot / treasure in “Progression” or a completely different subject?

Loot and treasure is indeed in progression.

Chris

Tuomir.1830:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

Am I right to assume the bolded part refers to mechanics on encounter level, and not on the level of how the raid would function as a whole?

Correct Tuomir.

Chris

timmyf.1490:

I wouldn’t sweat it, Chris. Your topic is a bit more nebulous and a lot more loaded. I’m starting Beast Mode in fantasy, so I’ll be cheering along with you.

Yep it is just a huge topic with a large amount of existing paradigms which is why I would like us to focus on the foundation of GW2.

Chris

timmyf.1490:

Sure thing, Chris. I feel like the discussion of rewards progression in particular could use some guidance. I had suggested earlier a system by which players could earn Legendary Raid Armor through a progression system. I was expecting a lot of strong reactions, but I mostly heard silence.

Curious as to what others think. Personally, I think raids need unique (read: can only be earned in raids) reward skins that are earned either through RNG or a progression system. (Meaning: you can get them as a drop if you’re lucky, but you get a fixed-effort backup option as well.)

Edit: here was that post. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/4529755

Crystal is taking point on progression and I am taking point on foundational design.

I am sure she will see your post soon.

Her discussion area is doing better than mine (-: so yes maybe it is time to focus in on some of the ideas in that area.

Chris

P.S: Note the Seahawks game is on soon and I will afk!!

Regarding Agony. Personally I would not want to use it for Raiding. I would like us to focus on the core combat and movement mechanics of the game and then build on that as a foundation to how encounters and mobs interact with the player and group.

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

Bumping so we can stay focused on the two topics.

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Good Morning All,

So far the thread has been very good. But it seems overnight, for no real reason at all, the collaboration, maturity and value of the thread has plummeted. I want to nip this in the bud so let me make some points:

1: The ‘I am more skilled than you’ commentary is boring and of no use whatsoever.
2: The analogy used in one of the posts is completely inappropriate and will not be tolerated.
3: We like to see discussion and proposals from different types of players and we are more than capable of drawing our own conclusions.
6: I have stated many many times that this CDI is about Challenging content.
7: If we don’t get back to collaborative and respectful discussion then I will close the CDI.

Chris

Bumping for those who haven’t seen this post.

Chris

And yes this thread is going to be huge and I have no problem with that at all as long as it is useful to all involved.

Also note there are a lot of new faces here who haven’t been part of a CDI before so we need to respect the fact that they are learning how to get involved and collaborate and this is something we need to be patient about because the more contributors in a CDI the better.

Chris

timmyf.1490:

This thread is growing far too fast for any normal human being to keep up with. Chris, do you think it’d be appropriate at this point to ask slightly more focused questions? As somebody who pops in every day or so, I’m finding there are a few pages covering five topics whenever I come back. By the time I catch up, it’s typically too late to contribute. :-(

Hi Timmy,

I am up to date with the thread. I have asked a number of times for folks to stay focused. I am not going to ask more pointed questions until we have more discussion around the questions I have already asked. With that in mind I will bump the posts i made pertaining to this.

Also and this is a general comment we are not going to answer questions about casual vs hardcore. we aren’t at that point in the discussion yet and i have made it clear many many times that the proposal is for ‘cooperative, challenging, instanced based content’. If I get to the point where I don’t think the thread is valuable then I will shut it down.

Note there has been some great conversation but every time someone goes off topic it makes it hard for others to engage.

Vod I would suggest not including comments in the summary that are off topic if that’s ok.

Chris

Thanks all for taking the time to read my posts on where I think we should be focusing. The current direction and focus is much better.

Note: Comments about UI, targeting etc are all really valid but we will discuss them once we have a firmer foundation in regard to player/mob activity and game state in regard to core combat and movement.

Chris

VodCom.6924:

Sytherek.7689:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

The Casual vs. Hardcore argument is not in the spirit of the CDI as you know, and I mean this in regard to those on both side of the fence who can’t see that we aren’t even at the stage where this is even worth discussing.

Chris, raiding is a social activity.

Social dynamics will determine whether your mechanics “work.” If you choose mechanics that do not support a broad social dynamic, raiding in GW2 will fail for the population at large.

You’ve stated that GW2 raiding should “fit” with the overall philosophy of the game. I agree. But you’ve put the cart before the horse IMO.

We need to decide what the social aspects of raiding are before designing mechanics.

No offense to you but the social aspect of anything comes AFTER the said thing is released. It is not something you can discuss in advance. I can slap you an entire wall of text in the face explaining to you how a well designed raid can solve the issue of casu vs hardocre.

And btw The summary is up: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Guild-Raiding-The-condensed-edition-2-19/first#post4531399

Great work Vod you are so helpful to the CDI.

I really appreciate everything you are doing and I know you don’t have much free time at the moment.

chris

Great work Vod you are so helpful to the CDI.

I really appreciate everything you are doing and I know you don’t have much free time at the moment.

chris

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t think I have anything left to add, being by and large a casual player who used to raid before raids really took off in WoW and other games. I’ve pretty much said everything I could think of on how to handle things (without going into detail just setting up the whole framework) and it’s apparently not in the direction people want to take things so . . .

I don’t think raids, however they are added, are going to be of either use or interest to me. And I don’t think those who would do raids are going to see me as being of use, or interested in allowing me to join in.

Have fun, everyone.

Tobias,

You have always been of huge value in the CDIs. I would ask that you at least hang around and see how the conversation evolves. The Casual vs. Hardcore argument is not in the spirit of the CDI as you know, and I mean this in regard to those on both side of the fence who can’t see that we aren’t even at the stage where this is even worth discussing.

I am asking the CDI group to concentrate on the core combat and mobility of the game. I am asking folks to think like systems and mechanics designers and essentially take the core foundation of the game and theory-craft and discuss how these systems and mechanics evolve into challenging collaborative instanced content.

This is the focus that will give us answers about what raiding could be in GW2. Trying to start at the end by talking about casual vs hardcore is pointless and is of no use to the way we work as a CDI group.

Therefore I would ask that you hang around and see how things evolve and I would ask others who are new to the CDI that this is about Game Design and not emotional uncollaborative opinionated bullying.

Chris

Symph.8407:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

Regarding 1, are you talking about reward progression or physical progression through the raid instance?

Both Symph. Thanks for asking.

Chris