Hi All,

Thanks for your collaboration in both the Vertical and Horizontal progression threads. We had some great conversation, ideation and commentary in both of the threads.

This Process Evolution topic is all about how we can improve our best working practices and processes for the CDI. The results of our last one were as follows:

1: More Focused Topics! (Done!)
2: Build out more time for Devs to engage (This is already in progress)
3: Thread owner to post a summary every three pages (The community did awesome here, but I want to build out more time to do this)
4: Post writers should aim to be concise and to the point using examples where necessary. (We need to improve here)

The focus of the conversation of this topic is therefore on how to improve the CDI and is not about specific areas of the game or features.

The two areas I think we need to work out or improve on are:

1: We need to keep thread and post sizes more manageable. Should we put a limit on the word length of posts?
2: How are we going to chose topics moving forward, for example, by votes or by Anet choosing them etc?

Chris

videoboy.4162:

Awesome! We’ve missed you, Chris!

I miss you ALL more!!

Chris

Nike.2631:

Yalora Istairiea.6287:

I would have to agree it would be nice to see from a High Level View what ANet deemed as valuable take-aways from previous CDI’s.

Unfortunately, in all good conscience, they can’t.

They’re working in a competitive business, and they cannot be distilling hundreds of hours and thousands of posts down into bullet lists of the best, most actionable items for the competition to skim off with no more effort than browsing the forums’ Dev tracker. Amongst several other reasons, that’s probably why they’re looking to move the combined proposal writing into player hands.

There are a lot of people taking a ton of time putting forth herculean efforts to favorably contribute to this process with little feedback on the resulting outcome of their suggestions.

As annoying as it sounds, the feedback has to come essentially no earlier than the preview the patch were the idea goes live.

That extra delay is one reason why I really hope that at that phase they are extremely diligent about drawing a line back to the CDI thread and even specific posts that inspired them. With the time between suggestion and delivery being so long and so carefully hidden, for there to be any sense of payoff they are going to have to work extra hard to acknowledge those contributions or all of our commitment is going quite rightly to dry up.

I was pretty excited to see Scarlet’s Hideout in this update and for her to not be in it. On the other hand I didn’t get to burn the place down and do racial dances in the ashes…

Should I count this as a personal success or just a bit of convergent evolution?

Without their commentary, I have no way of knowing if that CDI post had a contributory impact.

I am definitely going to expose the impact between previous CDI and evolution in the live game when I get time (More observant community CDI members will already see evolution).

Like you point out Nike, there have been some pretty obvious ones already, but I agree it would be exciting to call out changes in relation to previous CDI proposal/summaries.

Origins of Madness contains a number of evolutions that were heavily impacted by previous CDIs.

Chris

Hi All,

The next CDI Process Evolution topic will be up soon. Sorry for the delay.

Chris

Hi All,

I will be starting this topic either tomorrow or Monday.

Chris

Malchior.5042:

Fantastic, Chris! Thanks for being so open to the community and for being the front-runner on Anet’s side of the CDI.

BTW, I sent you a PM regarding an idea for the next CDI. I imagine your inbox is stuffed with them, but when you get a chance and can send a response, I’d appreciate it.

Thanks for being so collaborative with us and helping to make the game the very best it can be. I think the CDI is awesome and it is nothing without all of your hard work.

Chris

P.S: I intend to catch up on my inbox this weekend (-:

Nike.2631:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Here is the proposal:

Ooof. Nothing I wrote was usable to improve the proposal .

Other people have said they feel like they have a good grasp of what you’re looking for. Hopefully you or they can provide further examples. I’m evidently on the wrong track.

Nike your proposal was excellent but was to micro in my opinion for the CDI. Proposal to the team should be more goal oriented with micro examples to reinforce the goal.

The formatting, verbiage, details were all excellent. The delivery focus however is not quite right.

Let’s talk on Skype so I can explain in more detail.

Chris

Hi All,

Thanks for all of your feedback. The stakeholders have been sent the proposal (and have already been impacted by the conversation anyway, which is the most important element). Note the RP elements are not lost on me.

As such we will be stickying this thread and will be opening up Process Evolution Phase 2 on the 22nd of Jan.

Thank you all so much for you contributions to the topic and also for helping to shape the best working practices of the CDI.

We are starting to get there as a collaborative design group.

Here is the proposal:

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal
The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Order progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)
— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.
— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.
- QOL: More customization options regarding our armor and weapons. (Things that came up in this regard were: pattern dyes, texture options (other types of wood and different metal polishes), customizeable features like long sleeves vs short sleeves, emblem design.

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Here is a write up about the current CDI from Anatoli at Massively:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/14/flameseeker-chronicles-taking-guild-wars-2-job-specialization-t/

Chris

Bezagron.7352:

Also just letting everyone know I will not be covering any more summarises. So 53-58 will be my last one for this topic. Hoped they help and next time I jump in summarising I’ll look at improvements and staying a bit more up to date. Any feedback would be great (Maybe in the Evolution CDI). Chris would summarising and/or ways to improve summarising be part of CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Hi Bez,

Regarding:

‘Chris would summarising and/or ways to improve summarising be part of CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.[/quote]’

That would be great.

Chris

Bezagron.7352:

Hi Chris
Just looking at;

Chris Whiteside.6102:

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

Chris

And wondering about roles. Other then build content (weapons skills, skills, traits, armour etc..) not much else across the game affects roles. We made all these choices across the game like;

• Play in sPvP or WvW or PvE.
• sPvP – Custom, Solo or Team arena.
• Specialise in WvW ranks (Mastering Ram, Arrowcart..) become a Commander.
• PvE – Dungeons, FotM, Open world events.
• Crafting

I find myself agreeing with Devata looking for involvement of RP elements in HP and specifically RP elements for role gameplay in events & encounters. Tying overall game journey (Eg. sPvP ranks, WvW ranks, Crafting levels achievements etc..) into everyday gameplay interactions and journeys. This could open up event & encounter options tied to players overall game journey that allow other paths & choices to complete these events & encounters. Similar to the options given to players in Scarlet’s secret room at the Top of the Nightmare Tower (Solve the puzzles or choices to fight).

I think the proposal might be missing these RP elements other then that I think the proposal’s great Chris. Looking forward to seeing you all in CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Yep still thinking about this. Personally I feel it is implied but if you guys don’t then it clearly isn’t (-:

Chris

Nike.2631:

Snip

Horizontal Progression CDI: Our Proposal

PRINCIPLES
- Where possible new content should refresh and evolve the existing world.
- Players need multiple paths when pursuing mechanically significant rewards, respecting all major modes of play and play-styles within those modes (i.e. jump puzzles vs. combat).
- Secondary cosmetic rewards (titles, weapon skins, mini-pets, town cloths, furnishings) can be tied to unique feats to enhance the prestige to those feats. Primary cosmetic features (armor, faces, hairstyles) are not advised in this role. Example: The mini-Liadri the Concealing Dark specifically announces the player’s mastery of the Queen’s Guantlet.
- Be inclusive, respecting all in-games choices such as character race, profession, Personality, and Order. Example: if new Racial Dances are introduced, make sure all 5 races have a new dance to seek out.
- Consider Quality of Life improvements that communicate progress to the player, organize goal selection, and showcase the results of their effort. Example: The PvP Locker allow players to quickly review what they have, what they might still want, and enables them to flaunt what they have already accomplished.

REWARDS and THE JOURNEY

— Building Identity: Giving players more say in how the world of Tyria and their fellow players see them.

• Trophies & Recognition. Unique Skins, Ranger Pet Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the player’s individual feats or the completion of major multi-stage tasks in the world of Tyria.
• Choice & Consequence. More NPC dialogue that responds to the player’s Personality, Race, or Profession. Alternate animations or utterances that convey Personality. May also unlock ‘shortcuts and side-paths’ with minor opportunities to simplify challenges or reap additional rewards based on these choices.
• Player Housing. Customizable personal spaces displaying ‘furnishings’. Furnishing can be acquired across a wide range of activities, including most existing currencies, but particular emphasis on Open World activities (critter drops, Event rewards)
• Guild Halls. Shared, large-scale spaces which can house personal furnishing and special guild-specific items. These items reflect success in mass-play activities or pooling huge amounts of currency beyond the means of most individual players.
• Order Progression. Strongly thematic rewards based on repeated service to the Order’s Goals, including titles, skins, lore, emotes, furnishings, utterances (“For the Vigil!”), and NPC dialogue. Order progression also allows players to unlock new large-scale events for themselves and others, reflecting the order’s interests & with flavorful rewards.
• Public Monuments. Permanent or rotating open world sites for recognition of players. Populated by server-specific competitive achievements like server firsts or potlatch-challenges.
• Personal Resources. Continuing growth of the Home neighborhoods as a ‘private garden’ of crafting nodes and possible cheap/fast travel hub.

— Role Diversification: Giving players more options when creating their build.

• Grail Quests. Personal rights of passage through open world adventures, testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving. Once activated by the player others can join in the activities for basic rewards, while the central Hero earns New skills/traits, previously locked weapons/new weapon skills, or new Ranger companions.
• Item upgrades review and expansion. Rebalancing unpopular Runes, Sigils, and Infusions to promote greater variety of builds. Introducing new upgrades as both specialized rewards and new crafting opportunities.

FOR FUTURE DISCUSSION

— Sub-classes will be discussed in a later CDI, timed for maximum advantage in light of currently ongoing Skill and Balance changes.
— Entirely new end-game activities like Polymock and their supporting progression systems.
— Fractals. where we are now, what can be improved, new shards to conquer, redressing inequities from the transition to the new scaling system.
— More personal customization options regarding armor and weapons. Includes pattern dyes, texture options (other types of wood and different metal polishes), customizable features like long sleeves vs. short sleeves, emblem design.

Hi Nike,

Thanks for taking a crack, it is certainly well formatted and easily digestible.

I am still thinking in regard to how you have built/focused your proposal but my initial thoughts are that it is to much like a design document from a micro standpoint.

The proposal should allow room for maneuver from a design standpoint and should be more goal focused from a macro standpoint.

I will think on it more and am excited by your show of initiative here.

Chris

Romo.3709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

darkace.8925:

I’m going to throw a final post in this monstrosity before it’s closed forever. I’m glad to see the latest proposal is worded in a way to include the Orders as mechanisms for delivering meta-events. I do hope, however, that these events are flavored in a way that captures the personality of the Order they’re tied to (large scale battles for the Vigil, etc). And with that, I’m out. See you all next CDI.

Please note items in a CDI proposal are not a promise of inclusion in GW2.

Chris

I was also wondering since apparently the team members are following the CDI (at least in general) what do you do with the said proposal?
I mean it’s not a promise list or a wish list. Is it more of a discussion list? And if so, how much discussion do you guys bring to the table? Is every member prepared with some kind of basic background information about the topic before the discussion starts? Or do you guys sit down and bring it up and brainstorm? If that’s the case, isn’t more detailed proposal needed to show what has been discussed and how it was met with others responses?
I’m not questioning you guys or saying that you do not follow CDI, I’m just interested who’s the proposal for and how does the whole thing work.

Hi Romo,

This video answers a lot of your questions as long as you have the time to spare (-:

http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/interviews/exclusive-video-interview-chris-whiteside-cdis

Chris

darkace.8925:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

darkace.8925:

I’m going to throw a final post in this monstrosity before it’s closed forever. I’m glad to see the latest proposal is worded in a way to include the Orders as mechanisms for delivering meta-events. I do hope, however, that these events are flavored in a way that captures the personality of the Order they’re tied to (large scale battles for the Vigil, etc). And with that, I’m out. See you all next CDI.

Please note items in a CDI proposal are not a promise of inclusion in GW2.

Chris

I know. My post was “if it’s done, I hope it’s done in this way”, not “I fully expect to see this in game”. Apologies if that wasn’t clear.

No need to apologies Dark and thanks for clarifying.

Chris

darkace.8925:

I’m going to throw a final post in this monstrosity before it’s closed forever. I’m glad to see the latest proposal is worded in a way to include the Orders as mechanisms for delivering meta-events. I do hope, however, that these events are flavored in a way that captures the personality of the Order they’re tied to (large scale battles for the Vigil, etc). And with that, I’m out. See you all next CDI.

Please note items in a CDI proposal are not a promise of inclusion in GW2.

Chris

LittleLepton.8915:

Hi Chris, could you comment on this? It would be very helpful ^^

J Eberle.9312:

Hello Chris.

…

So in all seriousness, we could use some feedback. It’s great that you are willing to discuss fractals, but could we possibly include all dungeons in this discussion? Along with possibly the discussion of new/upcoming dungeons?

One point I want to ask the CDI group for help in is just the size of the threads and their accessibility in regard to this. The larger the thread, the harder to engage properly and the lower the value impact on the game.

With this in mind I am worried that having any CDI topic be to big is that it is going to lead to dis-economies of scale. Therefore this is something we should discuss in the Process Evolution CDI. On top of this it is not OK for me to just pick the topic of discussion currently and therefore whilst I would like to discuss Fractals next, that doesn’t mean that this will be the case.

We can discuss further in the next CDI. Meanwhile let’s concentrate on finishing of this CDI topic please.

Chris

Devata.6589:

I had a list compiled of RP elements talked about in this thread. Pets being one of them, another being the way or acquiring items like ‘fun items’, mini’s, dyes, mounts, recipe’s and so on. Another element went into fun crafts and the last went into NPC interaction for exploration and acquiring things.

I did try to put that down as a proposal around RP elements as all of these elements had been talked about in this thread before.

Maybe it’s because of my lacking skill of setting up a proposal but what happened in stead is that the person interested in pets went on to talk about that, the person interested in fun-crafts went to talk about that and so on. But as this thread is ending I think it’s important to now make a complete proposal for that whole RP part of HP in stead of going into the details again.

Here you can find me trying to set up the proposal: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/64#post3495708

Here I define the ‘dynamic catching of pets’ a little better: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/64#post3496209

We can put links in a proposal so devs can also read the details back. But it’s time that this gets packed into a good proposal. So we can move on. Devs will always be able to come back here to see more details.

Thanks Devata.

Chris

Jandopo.2107:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

Pardon me for asking this again, but by “New Weapons” do you mean “New Weapon Skills” or “New Weapon Types”? Because…

I think New Weapons Types should be available from the start, and not after completing a challenge.
I mean, if Halberds are suddenly added to the game, I’d like to try them immediately. Also, I would expect new weapons to be easily available to low-level characters.

Thank you for reading.

We would discuss both. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

Chris

VOLKON.1290:

I’m going to toss a new idea in here even though the proposal is already out there because… well, because I just thought of it… sorry Chris. It may seem a little strange (and feels a little strange to me to be honest) but it feels like a potential horizontal progression path…

Right now with the Living Story we’re seeing a changing of the guard as far as the heroes of Tyria go. Destiny’s Edge is settled back into non-guild, non-adventurer life with some influence and we’re seeing the latest quintet of Braham, Rox, Marjory, Kasmeer and soon the new Asura who seems about to become significant as well. To me, this could be the beginning of a new guild similar to Destiny’s Edge. I think that I think it would be interesting if, through the Living Story, players could also become a part of that guild and somehow through their actions and accomplishments in the LS progress along a path to possible rewards, unlocks, etc.

Conceptually it’s still a bit vague, I just thought of it, but possibly there could be skills or traits unlocked, unique weapon or armor skins, minipets, items to display in a housing environment (guild emblem or crest for example), etc.

It’s a fledgling idea, but there you go.

Yep this is a really cool idea. Something we have been thinking about and something I am unable to comment on.

Feel free to explore it among yourselves though.

Chris

Nike.2631:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed.

Several Questions:

Do you want to us to actively gather QoL changes proposed/discovered/refined in this thread as part of this proposal? Many of them serve to showcase progress along horizontal goals such as collecting mini-pets leading to a mini-pet slot to facilitate their display. I see a couple of them in the proposal now, but that section is far from comprehensive.

What is the desired level of detail for the discussion points of the proposal and should we assume the team has already done a cursory scan of this thread? In other words how much should we care about the specifics of our proposals being reflected in the proposal document? For example while I’m happy the essence of The New Masters has been incorporated, some of the nuances like ensuring that all five player races receive similar representation among the NPCs used to mediate the Journeys have been lost in translation . Would it be better for me to pull those kinds of details out as bullet points and re-present them?

((On some levels I’m concerned how much brainsweat we may have wasted exploring the fine details if the team will only see a summary of a summary of our contributions…))

Thank you for any insights you can share.

The level of detail is great the way it is. We read the posts and note micro suggestions in terms of the level of detail in rewards for example. This is why I don’t add specific reward types or skills in the proposal.

Chris

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

@Chris

Looks good, don’t see anything to correct on it.

I’ll be working up something for the “subclass CDI” whenever it comes out. Any idea on what the next one is so I can start studying?

I think we should discuss that in the CDI Process Evolution Phase 2 which will start on Wednesday 22nd. Among other things we need to chat about what topics to discuss in the next CDIs and how to go about choosing them. I would personally like to have a week long PVE CDI on Fractals next (Running in conjunction with a PvP and WvW CDI) but we should discuss it as a group first.

Chris

On all those topics, I have no knowledge (PvP), limited knowledge (Fractals), or only amateur knowledge (WvW) so I’ll likely be quiet in whatever topic we wind up doing

See you on the 22nd for the discussion then, though. I’m off to go work some other ideas up.

Awesome, see you then Tobias. And I am pretty sure that any CDI member at this point would be a benefit to any CDI topic moving forward.

Chris

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

@Chris

Looks good, don’t see anything to correct on it.

I’ll be working up something for the “subclass CDI” whenever it comes out. Any idea on what the next one is so I can start studying?

I think we should discuss that in the CDI Process Evolution Phase 2 which will start on Wednesday 22nd. Among other things we need to chat about what topics to discuss in the next CDIs and how to go about choosing them. I would personally like to have a week long PVE CDI on Fractals next (Running in conjunction with a PvP and WvW CDI) but we should discuss it as a group first.

Chris

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed. Note many of us have read the thread internally and thus there has already been valuable impact.

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal

The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Order progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.
- QOL: More customization options regarding our armor and weapons. (Things that came up in this regard were: pattern dyes, texture options (other types of wood and different metal polishes), customizeable features like long sleeves vs short sleeves, emblem design.

Once we have discussed the proposal and the thread reaches conclusion we will sticky it and move onto CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Here is a write up about the current CDI from Anatoli at Massively:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/14/flameseeker-chronicles-taking-guild-wars-2-job-specialization-t/

Chris

Updated proposal.

Change Log

Terminology Change: Faction to Order.

Chris

Gulesave.5073:

Quick reminder: this thread is now focused on narrowing down guidelines for a general proposal to the development team. Once that is done in the next day or so, the whole thread will be closed and stickied.

For any topics that have been bumped out—such as subclasses, fractal levels, skin locker, &c.—it is recommendable to find or open a new thread in the relevant sub-forum.

+1

Chris

StriderShinryu.6923:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

By the way moving forward (and we can discuss this in the CDI Process Evolution topic) I would like you guys to nominate someone to build the Proposal on behalf of us all.

Due to the Red Swash on the left it seems some are getting confused with Promise vs. Proposal and I just think it would be healthy to do it this way anyway.

Chris

Ouch.. not a fan of this at all. There already appears to be some favour in terms of who gets responses and who doesn’t (not that it isn’t already warranted). I’d hate to see how things turn out if one person gets elected as the spokesperson and other just as worthy nominees don’t. This sort of system is just asking for trouble.

I understand. Let’s discuss it in the process evolution CDI and go from there and I will explain the full reasoning around it.

Chris

The Lost Witch.7601:

Perhaps you should give some details as to what a proposal means Chris?

---

My impression as to what the proposal is:

The proposal is an attempt to collect the most important and interesting ideas from the thread in one post.

Which is important for the following reasons:

• Players can check if their ideas have landed, or if they may have been overlooked.
• Devs get an overview of everything that has been mentioned here. Which makes it easier to remember some ideas and view the bigger picture.
• Summarizing forces the writer to sharpen the thoughts. Which results in clean, though broad ideas that are more easy for everyone to understand.
• It can be used to check if everyone (or almost everyone) agrees with the ideas mentioned. (This is vital!)

As for what the proposal is not:

• It is not a promise.
• It is not a complete summary.
• It is not a guideline.
• It is not just a wish.
• It is not a substitute for the entire thread.

I imagine the proposal to be on the wall at the arenanet office, and at quite a few desks. And in addition to that, there are probably a lot of notes flying around regarding ideas mentioned in this thread.

---

Which brings me to another point:

Chris, in the future, please do not rename threads. (This one was split into vertical and horizontal through the name) It breaks all the links. And when the thread is closed, the links can’t be fixed anymore. Renaming the thread again to it’s original title would break all the links made after the first name change.

The summaries that have been made could be of use to find important ideas that you and other devs may remember. But they rely on links. So please do not rename the CDI’s.

(If you are willing to reopen the vertical progression thread I could probably fix the links. Just let me know if you think it would help and when it would be open.)

Hi The Lost Witch,

I understand your frustration. However as far as I recall I didn’t change anything. I will look into this when i get into work tomorrow morning.

Chris

Chrispy.5641:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

By the way moving forward (and we can discuss this in the CDI Process Evolution topic) I would like you guys to nominate someone to build the Proposal on behalf of us all.

Due to the Red Swash on the left it seems some are getting confused with Promise vs. Proposal and I just think it would be healthy to do it this way anyway.

Chris

I Nominate Bezagron if he’s up for it. He’s managed to stay mostly neutral this whole thread when he was writing those summaries. Not only that, but he somehow managed to read every single post in this thread and come up with a 1 sentence summary on almost every single suggestion/proposal in this thread. That’s just crazy and awesome at the same time!

Also, I took screenshots incase a player tries to say that “Kitten Anet broke their promises to add (housing)!!!!”

Hugs.

Chris

brittitude.1983:

darkace.8925:

Rigultru.3597:

Horizontal progression is a fairly simple accomplishment in the minds of an RPG community

Perhaps RPG elements could/should be their own CDI? Things like the ability to sit down in a chair aren’t really tied to character progress, but I’m sure additions in that vein would be welcome by quite a few players. I just don’t see it as character progress, though.

I think this is a really good idea. I think some aspects might be part of HP, but there are a lot of things people want that Chris said are QOL and even more things that seem to be less about progression than about immersion.

I think this is a good idea.

Chris

By the way moving forward (and we can discuss this in the CDI Process Evolution topic) I would like you guys to nominate someone to build the Proposal on behalf of us all.

Due to the Red Swash on the left it seems some are getting confused with Promise vs. Proposal and I just think it would be healthy to do it this way anyway.

Chris

Hi All,

Here is a write up about the current CDI from Anatoli at Massively:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/14/flameseeker-chronicles-taking-guild-wars-2-job-specialization-t/

I will add it to the proposal post.

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed. Note many of us have read the thread internally and thus there has already been valuable impact.

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal

The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Faction progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.
- QOL: More customization options regarding our armor and weapons. (Things that came up in this regard were: pattern dyes, texture options (other types of wood and different metal polishes), customizeable features like long sleeves vs short sleeves, emblem design.

Once we have discussed the proposal and the thread reaches conclusion we will sticky it and move onto CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Here is a write up about the current CDI from Anatoli at Massively:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/14/flameseeker-chronicles-taking-guild-wars-2-job-specialization-t/

Chris

Bump. I will bump the proposal once more tomorrow and then sticky the thread (-:

Chris

Devata.6589:

Mimizu.7340:

I see so many animals in the game that I would like to charm into a ranger pet yet the game only allows me a small portion of them.

Ranger pets need expanding to include all the working animals in the game.

I would like a Stag pet, for example.

(and i miss the zoo island from gw)

That is one of the elements I touched on with the RP part of horizontel progression here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/63#post3494474

It´s not yet on the proposal list. Hope Chris will adds that soon. Think the RP (or casual or whatever you name it) horizontal progression is pretty much non-existing in GW2 and it could make huge steps there.

Can you put a short proposal together for the CDI group to discuss please?

Chris

The Lost Witch.7601:

I would like to add one thing to this proposal that has been well-received earlier on in the thread.

(This could be just a QOL feature, but in my opinion an important one)

• More customisation options regarding our armor and weapons. (Things that came up in this regard were: pattern dyes, texture options (other types of wood and different metal polishes), customizeable features like long sleeves vs short sleeves, emblem design, that sort of stuff.

This falls under hero-recognition, but is a bit different than just adding new skins.

---

Regarding the AI first or class balance first discussion:

Let’s say we change the AI and the encounters to require more healing. Currently not all classes are equally able to heal. So this might lead to ‘forced’ group compositions, something GW2 seems to be very keen on avoiding.

They would have to change class balance with the upcoming AI-change in mind. But releasing the new AI before setting the balance right… could lead to a few months of frustration as the devs are trying to get the balance right.

On the other hand, without new AI to test on… how can you set the balance right?

The best would be a simultaneous effort, but with such a big game… it may be impossible to set aside enough resources to work on these simultaneously without rushing other content.

I guess they will need to do some guesswork with class balance keeping AI changes in mind, and be prepared to update it shortly after AI improvements come through.

Thanks Lost. I will add this to the proposal

Chris

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed. Note many of us have read the thread internally and thus there has already been valuable impact.

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal

The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Faction progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.

Once we have discussed the proposal and the thread reaches conclusion we will sticky it and move onto CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Chris

Bump. The following reminder added:

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Chris

darkace.8925:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Zone Dominance through Faction Alliances (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

I must have missed that, but if it’s what it sounds like then there are going to be potential problems; particularly one dominant faction leading people to believe they must align with it to get the rewards, leaving other factions abandoned. Again, if this isn’t what I’m thinking it is then disregard my concern.

HI Dark,

I have updated the proposal to give more exposition in those areas.

Chris

Nike.2631:

Shriketalon.1937:

The problem is not teaching the system, it’s challenging the players. Most of the content in this game consists of very crude opponents, mindless melee monsters who stroll towards the player or imbecilic ranged enemies who stand still while someone bashes them in the face. Likewise, most monsters have one single cooldown skill, a rather pathetic lack of resources.

Quoted for truth.

And really, the dumber monster AI is the more often you get calls to split skills between PvE and PvP behaviors. The effort spent making smarter, nastier, more vicious critters pays off double in the less you have to manage parallel skills between gameplay modes.

City of Heroes (may it soar forever in our hearts) was an EXTREME example of this: healing didn’t generate agro so healers could stand completely naked healing at full-blast in the midst of a mass melee and would be ignored by critters until every other party-member was dead. This lead to Devs ignoring giving healing classes any sort of active defense as part of their class. Now pop them into PvP where the universal battlecry is “KILL THE HEALER FIRST” and let me tell you: playing a healer in PvP in that game sucked donkey hindquarters. And they WOULD NOT FIX IT because ‘hey, healers are fine (in PvE)’…

I spoke with their lead designer about it a few times. He didn’t seem to appreciate my suggestion~

“Have healing cause substantial agro in PvE – then when you get a hundred thousand players screaming that healers are unplayable (or rather as unplayable as they are already in PvP…) maybe you’ll feel empowered to fix the root problem …”

I’d really like to see healing others in GW2 generating massive agro, because if monsters don’t respond to it, the fight’s already over. Similarly some mobs that are justifiably smarter in-game should clearly prioritize taking the weakest player down… and then prioritize ending them. Embers are about the only trash monster in the game I respect in group-play, and that’s because they almost coincidentally finish off downed players with their fire fields.

And this is not a call for the (un)holy trinity. The trinity is also based on BAD agro behavior. There is a reason the MMO-tank doesn’t exist in the real world: it is based on the attacker’s complete stupidity. You don’t attack the lowest threat + highest mitigation target first (without arbitrary mind-control… er, ‘taunts’). Games that rely on tanks as a role end up having to do backflips trying to make them relevant in PvP. Again: dumb monsters prompting dumb classes that fall apart when faced with human opponents.

Instead this is the call for more relevant Support and Control. If Critters were actually dangerous, there would be a place for helping the “priority target” survive either by healing/defensively buffing them (Support) or by debuffing or CCing the attackers (Control).

The issue of unsatisfying role balance is something to be laid at the feet of the AI design as much or more than any inequity on the player skill choices side.

I want us to get the role balance paradigm just right providing a solid foundation to interact with before turning up the heat in terms of AI behavior. I believe and know this to be a prerequisite.

I can’t really go into much more detail than this.

Chris

Nike.2631:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Zone Dominance through Faction Alliances (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

darkace.8925:

I must have missed that, but if it’s what it sounds like then there are going to be potential problems; particularly one dominant faction leading people to believe they must align with it to get the rewards, leaving other factions abandoned. Again, if this isn’t what I’m thinking it is then disregard my concern.

That threw up some flags for me too.

Chris, and you clarify your terms “Zone Dominance” and “Grail Quests” please?

I have updated the proposal.

Chris

Hi All,

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed. Note many of us have read the thread internally and thus there has already been valuable impact.

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal

The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Faction progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.

Once we have discussed the proposal and the thread reaches conclusion we will sticky it and move onto CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Chris

StriderShinryu.6923:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Recently however we have been working kitten balance and situational role parity and bit by bit in game you can see player’s experimenting much more. This is a very good sign and will afford us a stronger foundation to build our content on moving forward.
Chris

Okay, what was it that got censored there?

What do you mean? They really are working on the balance of kittens throughout the game. Personally, I think more kittens in all areas of the world would certainly make for a solid horizontal progression system I could enjoy.

. (-:

Chris

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Recently however we have been working kitten balance and situational role parity and bit by bit in game you can see player’s experimenting much more. This is a very good sign and will afford us a stronger foundation to build our content on moving forward.
Chris

Okay, what was it that got censored there?

“hard” followed by “on.” (Thanks Denari) (-: Not sure but it adds comedy value so i am going to leave it (-:

Chris

Nike.2631:

BlizzShark.5410:

My opinion on Sub-class system is:

• The system works very well. Why? Can make professions a little more exclusive. Ex: Thief vs thief and both have different sub classes we can see 2 different play styles.

It makes me wonder where the game has gone wrong that people don’t realize WE ALREADY HAVE THIS. My Super Unicorn in all Settlers gear is an effective WvW Thief spec that doesn’t even go into stealth. A mantra healing Mesmer is completely unlike a Shatter-duelist spec.

• Sub-Classes could also be the way to add new weapons.

Or we could, just, you know… add them to the game and allow players to mix and match as their tastes and imagination prefer.

• Trait Templates – You could save a build to quick change if you are on wvw or pve and change if you are Out Of Combat.

So now I can set up my ‘groups of trash mobs smashing build’ and my ‘boss-killing build’, and sweep through dungeons even faster than before toggling the two because now I don’t have to make any strategic decisions at all… It doesn’t get much more vertical than that.

Horizontal progression design is hard, because you have to add cool to the game without appealing to the lust for naked POWER. Its hard, but its also worth it.

Excellent post Nike.

Your question here:

‘It makes me wonder where the game has gone wrong that people don’t realize WE ALREADY HAVE THIS. My Super Unicorn in all Settlers gear is an effective WvW Thief spec that doesn’t even go into stealth. A mantra healing Mesmer is completely unlike a Shatter-duelist spec.’

We don’t teach it well enough and therefore it is obfuscated to the point that players have already invested heavily in a particular role making experimentation in diversification less appealing (for a multitude of reasons).

Recently however we have been working kitten balance and situational role parity and bit by bit in game you can see player’s experimenting much more. This is a very good sign and will afford us a stronger foundation to build our content on moving forward.

Thus the timing around this topic is actually excellent.

Chris

Signet of Forums.4397:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Zaoda.1653:

@ColinJohanson,

In regards to new weapon skills/unlocks, I think the way it worked in GW1 in terms of obtaining both normal and elite skills using the Signet of Capture was so unique and amazing. It was something I had never seen done before in any other game I had played, whereby you go around the world looking for specific bosses that have the elite that you want, and that boss had a particular glow depending on what profession it was – gold/yellow for warrior, cyan for ritualist, green for necromancer etc. you slayed that boss, and captured its elite when standing near its corpse. I felt like I had truly earnt that skill, and that to me is what it’s all about – true progression.

So something like a Signet of Capture concept where you can purchase, or get via a reward, and go around and collect weapon skills from bosses would be ideal – and would make you feel as though you truly earnt it.

You could even swap in, say, 10-20 skill points for a capture skill (as many have been wanting more ways to use excess skill points, this could be another way to use them up?)

Edit: another idea could be bringing back elite tomes? Just a thought anyway.

Hi Zaoda,

Absolutely, this is a simple and excellent system. Very elegant, and rewarding with a great sense of discovery.

Chris

Well, I didn’t think the part where you had to have the Signet of Capture already taking up the slot of one of your skills on your skill bar in advance was what I would call “elegant,” but it was interesting aside from that.

Hi,

I am referring to the system at it’s core level. If we were going to reintroduce the system we would evolve and polish it.

I hope this makes more sense.

Chris

Eli Stormstrike.8637:

Eli Stormstrike.8637:

CONTINUED…

ACCOUNT-BIND/SOULBOUND
To encourage alt’ing even further, I suggest that soulbound be removed whereever possible and be converted to account-bound; considering currencies are account-bound, there is no reason for us not to be able to use the same armor sets for our other characters, instead of having them purchase it again with the tokens grinded for on our mains.

DOUBLE SPECIALIZATION/TEMPLATE SYSTEM
The Template System that existed in GW1 saved alot of time, encouraged trying out different builds and easily allowed players who were inactive and returned to be able to become re-connected to the gameplay more easily through remembering and reading through the titles and compositions.

I see no reason for us not to implement such a system for our Traits and Skills, allowing us to re-specialize on the fly depending on the demands of the encounters before us.

WEAPON TYPE ACCESSIBILITY
I don’t see the reason for weapon types being restricted based on class and profession, and removing those restrictions might attract more people to different classes and give players an even broader sense of customization and progression.

I would, for example, love to see a Ranger able to use Rifles.

LEGENDARY DYES AND ACCOUNT-BINDING
This suggestion has been brought up before, I don’t recall where, but it’s yet another method of customization and cosmetic progression which is only positive.

First of all, Dyes should become account-bound on acquire, which would further ease and encourage alt’ing and be a simple quality-of-life update.

As for Legendary Dyes, the suggestion that was put forth was to add effects to the armor similar to those gotten from Legendary Weapons, with fogs and glowing effects added to the character and its armor.

DONE

Hi Eli,

I will be meeting with Izzy to discuss this proposal in detail. He will respond once we have had a chance to do so.

Chris

Chuggs.1682:

CHIPS.6018:

Basically it comes down to this:

GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

WoW kept players playing by power creep. It takes a lot of time and effort to max equip just one character. And so everyone have to focus on one character, that’s it. The newbie zones are emptied out very quickly, because veteran players do not have time to play an alt. Since most players only ever play though 1 class, they often have great misunderstandings on other classes.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

That’s a great, succinct summary of the two extremes, but I think GW2 is a lot more nuanced than that. GW2 has tried to shorten the leveling curve from WOW greatly, and has given people more reasons to go back to early zones through the Sidekick system, living story, dynamic events, and world completion.

The allure of the GW2 world is that it is really a living world where new challenges erupt in old places, and those challenges can bring in players all along the experience curve.

GW2 has flattened the gear curve immensely, and expanded the world on offer to max level players to avoid the trap of MMO’s which are just “get on to raid” or “grind out reputation.”

The more GW2 can do to make itself utilize that world and expand the content in there, the more people are going to be happy with horizontal progression and new experiences, rather than chasing higher stat gear.

This is just such a positive loop that in turn impacts other core positive loops in the game that it is a given in terms of a goal.

‘The more GW2 can do to make itself utilize that world and expand the content in there, the more people are going to be happy with horizontal progression and new experiences, rather than chasing higher stat gear.’

Chris

Yoh.8469:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey Chris, welcome back!

Although it’s not relevant to the progression system being discussed, have you seen the “Let the night be nighttime” thread yet? I added a thought in there as to how we could use making the dark darker to enhance the overall game play. It may be worth your read.

Thanks!

I saw it last night while I was reading the forums in bed but that was the one topic I didn’t read, sorry.

I will read it tonight but based on what you just said I am very intrigued and can imagine what the content will be (-:

Chris

Nah, don’t be too kitten yourself mate.
Trying to read through all of this is a full time job in and of itself. I just can’t keep up even with all the time I have, so your a bloody trooper to have been able to keep up.

Just don’t burn yourself out mate.

Thanks Yoh I appreciate your care and that of others, but the CDI is ultra important to GW2 and Arena, plus I really like being part of it all.

Chris

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey Chris, welcome back!

Although it’s not relevant to the progression system being discussed, have you seen the “Let the night be nighttime” thread yet? I added a thought in there as to how we could use making the dark darker to enhance the overall game play. It may be worth your read.

Thanks!

I saw it last night while I was reading the forums in bed but that was the one topic I didn’t read, sorry.

I will read it tonight but based on what you just said I am very intrigued and can imagine what the content will be (-:

Chris

Actually, look at this one instead People are starting to add some brilliantly creative ideas to it.

Ok will do.

Chris

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

@Bezagron – Great work there, the links must have been incredibly finicky to get to work right. Taking time out to say great job with it! Someone remind me to tip him.

Agreed. Bezagron you do so much for the CDI thank you so much.

Chris

Dreaude.9205:

This is my first post in the forums I believe and I am making it because of how much I have enjoyed reading all of your ideas and hope I can contribute to the discussion even in a small way.

I was thinking about the acquisition side of things, specifically the mission based ones revolving either around the orders or a kind of personal quest line to unlock/acquire the desired step in the progression.

I think player triggered dynamic events for single steps in the process of the unlocking could be one option.

DiogoSilva mentioned this in his mini-dungeons post except I am thinking the player currently pursuing mastery etc. would be the Only trigger as opposed to it being a timed event, or the result of an open dynamic event chain. To me, making it something more personal in scale.

As an example:
A character could receive notice of a dangerous risen enemy that has popped up in the Maguma Jungle and the Vigil has asked the Character, as a champion of the order, to go deal with it.

When the player arrives in the area of the report the player would specifically choose to trigger the event. It would be an open event in which other players in the area would receive a dynamic event notice for and can participate in.
The player would receive a completion for the, for lack of a better term, step and the other players participating could receive the usual dynamic event completion rewards.

To try and explain a little further; I was thinking of this simply as a mechanic in how the player could pursue the horizontal progression. I was not thinking of the full system of mechanics that would could be needed or used. I saw a few posts about the different variety of mission types and themes that the player could be required to complete to unlock skills, weapons, traits, armors etc. and I think this could be One way of doing those missions. It might not be for each step, but maybe as the culmination/end of a number of prior steps or the result of meeting certain conditions. One tool in the box so to speak.

The “player events” could not be limited to just Kill X creatures or kill Veteran Y but could use the exiting dynamic event styles such as escorts, collection, scavenger hunts etc. or possibly introduce new ones/hybrids such as a race between an NPC. Through gangs of enemies or not, possibly with a timer: “stop him before he reaches the ship or we’re sunk!”

Players participating in the “player event” could also receive some kind of reward relating to the horizontal progression the triggering player is working on. If for example all the steps are linear they could receive partial credit for that step, or perhaps unlock it for themselves. The dynamic event UI notice could also be updated to so say something to the effect of “CHARACTER NAME is fighting for their life – help them!”

Participation and completion of the player triggered events could also be used as a way to communicate to other players the existence of the horizontal progression that is available them in the future through the completion text. In the case of the Master suggestion, when the player receives their completion notice the text could read “You helped TRIGGERING PLAYER NAME defeat Oogalook The Wrathful and learn their prestige skill” or something to that effect.

One of the reasons this appeals to me is that it gets people, out in the world participating and working together which is one of my favorite things about GW2 and I myself would enjoy seeing that in the horizontal progression. It also has the feel of me affecting the world a little more in that I am making the event happen rather than me responding to the events of the world.

I don’t know what technical limitations this would come up against, or what ramifications this might result in play-wise for all players in the zones, but wanted to try and contribute.

Exciting idea that pulls and builds from the core of the social pillars in GW2.

Chris

Gaebriel.3754:

This got me thinking more on the following, some of which I already briefly mentioned in an earlier post:

Journey Challenge:
A mission directs you to an NPC scout (located at the zone’s entrance or one of the camps) to activate this mode. You remain in the open world, but this mode deactivates all waypoints in the zone and gives you several enemies to defeat and/or places to reach for clues, puzzles and the like. If you die, you will respawn at the scout’s location. That would inject some good old fashioned fear of dying into traveling. This Journey Challenge could be linked to a mission to unlock archetypes.

Additionally, this could be available for every zone as a zone completion challenge mode. You will have to discover the entire zone (again ..!), including the waypoint locations (though they are deactivated) to unlock your zone reward: a themed armour set as well as a page with the lore of the zone, added to your personal ingame Tyria encyclopaedia tab (as mentioned in my earlier post).

Players are rewarded with a title when they complete the Journey Challenges for a group of zones: all Kryta maps, all Ascalon maps, etc. A further title could be rewarded for completing all the zone challenges in the world.

So in short, Journey Challenges:

• Get players into the world and encourage them to traverse the various gorgeous environments of Tyria.
• Instil a sense of progression easily tracked by the already existing map completion meter, and offer a tangible reward for completing it.
• Expand on the Guild Wars 2 core gameplay elements with minimal alterations. The challenges are comprised of elements already in the game, with the exception of UI elements, rewards and deactivation of waypoints on a character basis.
• Could be challenging and potentially time-consuming depending on player skill, but very doable.
• Are fairly long term and give players something substantial to do (unless you’re super hardcore of course).
• Are entirely optional, but give access to titles, fashion and lore.

Hi Gaebriel,

I love how you start with a game play example and then list the mechanics of your design. This is a really good best working practice.

As a player I also really like the design and see it almost like a ‘Grail Quest’ in its most traditional and beloved sense. Something that Chrispy also alluded this design idea to, calling it a Pilgrimage to Enlightenment!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/48#post3470419

It gets me really excited in terms of a thematic device for horizontal progression that could house a lot of ideas that have been put forward regarding utilization of existing and new content within zones.

I would add including LW into this wrapper however assuming we were able to solve the accessibility problem.

Good stuff!

Chris

zamalek.2154:

Gulesave.5073:

Current state of the “subclass” discussion:

Those points are a summary of only your suggestion, suggestions (regarding subclasses) I found since Bezagron’s previous summary :

• Septemptus posted about schools
• Chuggs talks about mastery and some unlock options
• Lheimroo suggested using personality traits to derive some form of subclass
• Tobias suggested using the orders as a subclass
• Nike suggests having a switchable trait line
• Nike asks about alts
• Chuggs Grand Journey
• My tweaks to Chuggs ideas

Unlock options:

• Some of the above suggestions involve unlocking as well
• Mikuchan gives 4 ideas and 5 more ideas
• Shiren suggested reusing insignia quests
• DarkWasps housing system
• timmyf’s order missions
• DiogoSilva talks about a new currency
• DiogoSilva’s mini-scenarios (Diogo goes more in-depth )
• adubb suggests making better use of dailies/monthlies
• My synergistic/free-form missions

Thanks both for providing design summaries. When discussions are this involved and threads are this long, initiatives like this really make entering the discussion much more accessible for Collaborators.

Many thanks,

Chris

draxynnic.3719:

When it comes to the idea of subclasses, “advanced professions”, and the like, my suggestion (which I’ve espoused a few times) is the following:

Treat it as a key, not a lock.

Subclasses are a great idea for coming up with themes for new skills and traits, and for coming up with a story that links them. Consider the oft-mentioned idea of a druid subclass for the ranger, for instance. From that theme, you can come up with a set of skills and traits that support that theme (caster weapons with nature-magic-esque skills and traits that support them, for instance) and a story that fits with the theme (a journey of discovery into the culture and magic of the Maguuma druids) along which the player can unlock the new abilities associated with that theme. Similar journeys of discovery could go into Elonian lore for elementalists to be able to become dervishes, or into Cantha for necromancers to be able to learn the secrets of ritualism, just to use a couple of examples – Tyria has loads of cultures and old and new lore that could be drawn on for new themes.

Once unlocked, though, I think the new skills and traits should be able to be chosen using the existing system (or an improved version therof) rather than forcing someone to commit to a specific theme. If the hypothetical ranger wanted to become a full-on druid, that should be their choice. If they just wanted to incorporate a little of their new learnings into their old way of doing things, or mix what they’ve learned from the legacy of the druids with the teachings of the kodan wardens they stayed with last Season of the Colossus, they should be able to do so.

…Snip…

The themes should be a key, providing inspiration for the development team to come up with a set of related skills and traits and a story for how characters can acquire them – not a lock forcing people to only play characters that have been “approved” by the creation of a suitable subclass. Ther’d be no point at which there’s a mechanic where you expressly choose a subclass – instead, you can choose for yourself through choices of skills, utilities and traits how closely you align with a theme. I certainly don’t want to see subclass changes as being another way for people who like experimenting with new builds to be nickeled and dimed and discouraged from doing what they find to be fun.

(On this, I think I’m in consensus with Chrispy and Tobias – I typed this up before reaching their posts on the last page)

*Yes, I made this up just to make the number… but it seems logical that they might include something like Rain in their aspects given the other three. As for how to introduce it – simplest way would probably to make one weapon that represents the Zephyrites in some fashion, and equipping that weapon automatically changes your attunements and linked traits. Believe me, I’d love an opportunity to play a Zephyrite-inspired character, although the mobility would probably need to be toned down substantially…

On order skills:

I’d really prefer not to see skills locked behind orders – or at least, not permanently. For new players, that would raise the spectre of forcing the player to choose between what they want mechanically and what they want for roleplaying reasons, and philosophically I don’t think that’s a choice player’s should be made to make unless it’s deliberately intended as a Faustian compromise of virtue for power. Worse, for established players that have already committed to an order, it’d really suck to have the ideal skill go to a different order, particularly if your original order choice had come close to being a mental coin flip to begin with (as was the case for one of mine – one of my Vigil characters was literally chosen between that and the Priory based on HQ location, which is no longer a significant issue since we can now use the portal of any HQ to get to Fort Trinity).

I could certainly see some being easier for members of one order or another, but I’d rather not see skill access be gated behind something that many people would have decided on over a year ago, particularly for their mains.

On Nike’s thoughts regarding paying for skills or unlocking them through story: That was actually done in GW1 – you could pay for skill unlock packs (primarily beneficial for PvP and heroes).

Hi Draxynnic,

In my opinion this is an excellent focus/paradigm for the creation of sub-classes:

‘Treat it as a key, not a lock.’

Based on the way the professions were built for GW2 I don’t think we would treat sub classes any other way. However your reasoning and points are well made and serve as an excellent guide or talking point should we decide to explore Subclasses in the future.

Thanks,

Chris