Showing Posts For Chris Whiteside.6102:

CDI- Character Progression-Horizontal

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

This CDI continues to get better and better. It is awesome just to be able to sit here and think about all these great ideas. On top of this the professionalism and respect shown to fellow posters is exactly what I would hope from the initiative as it matures.

A couple of days ago I did an interview with a journalist about the CDI and he asked me what my favorite things about the CDI were (on top of other things. You will be able to hear it soon I think). Seeing you all brainstorm and problem solve like you are in this thread is excellent and exactly what I had hoped for the CDI. So many good ideas, so much for us to discuss with you and at Arena, and ultimately so much value to add to GW2.

With this in mind I will be keeping this topic open until at least the 6th of Jan so that once the majority of the idea have come forward we can discuss them and start putting proposals together.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression-Horizontal

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Snip

A sort of scavenger hunt thing: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/4#post3408265

Legendary dyes: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/4#post3408259

Utility mini-pets: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/4#post3408254

Keep LS npcs in your home instance, and then fight them! https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/4#post3408238

Rework the trait system (soft trinity) : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407491

New craft: Tinkering: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407258

Examples of ways to customize skills: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407237

Crafting items with more flavor: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407178

Challenge Missions: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406960

Commentary about the difficulties of horizontal progression and potential solutions: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406883

book system, etc: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406542

In-depth about flaws with the runes/sigils system: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406492

Commander tags change color with WvW rank/Achievements: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406355

It seems counter-intuitive to have 5 guilds but only the ability to help one at a time. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406331

Allow people to trade dungeon tokens for some sort of universal currency: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406082

modular gear customization: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406099
Follow-up to the above, with some fantastic ideas: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406787

Racial skills could be more powerful on their home turf. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406220

Item appearance levels- https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406221

Tons of good ideas; not specific.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406043
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/4#post3408445
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407529 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/3#post3407397 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406583 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406543 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406223
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406330
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406378

Details about dyes: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406233

Details about doing an “armor pass” https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406235

Feasible, well thought out idea for dual spec: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406262

This is why single-use skins don’t feel like progression: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406328

Separate PvE skills from PvP and WvW: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/first#post3406329

Titles with color, and more good ideas: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406709

A bag slot that is account wide, bring back the arena challenge from the Crown Pavillion, and others: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/2#post3406767

Thanks Guhracie this is great!

CDI- Character Progression-Horizontal

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hey Chris, you might want to add this thread to the Master Sticky, I kind of assume that’s why it exists.

Also, I have a question, you might want to pass it on to Izzy or somebody as it is a bit technical.
We know we are going to get new skills/weapons/traits etc eventually.

-
But, is it possible for these new skills and abilities to utilize the Z-axis?

Most of the skills in the game effectively work on a flat plane, but as the Zephyr Sanctum showed it is quite possible go vertical as well. (admittedly only so far in a controlled space)
Technical map issues aside, is it possible we could see skills like these introduced into the game?

For example: Jumping into the air and raining down daggers or arrows, of launching yourself up and over your opponent.

-

And for everyone else, what do you think? Would you like to have skills that used the vertical Z-axis?

Hi,

CDI threads get added to the master sticky once they end. While they are live they remain in this section in order to ensure that folks are aware of the current CDI. I hope this makes sense.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression-Horizontal

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Quick note to say that I am up to date and that there are some awesome ideas here.

If someone wants to do a macro summary of the main ideas that would be awesome (if they haven’t already. I haven’t seen one). If not I will do one tomorrow morning.

I will then call out some of the suggestions I personally really like. Also as per Colin’s question in the previous thread (one which has been asked again by some posters in this thread) feel free to discuss Horizontal Progression systems you have enjoyed in other games.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression-Horizontal

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Also sorry for the delay, but I have been out and about with the family.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression-Horizontal

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Note I will jump into the discussion once the conversation between you all gets going. Probably tomorrow. We will see (-:

Chris

CDI- Character Progression-Horizontal

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hello Fellow Collaborators,

Welcome to the last CDI topic of 2013 (For Real this time!). In this topic we will be discussing Horizontal Character Progression. The CDI rules are as follows:

Rules

1: This initiative is all about discussion.
2: We will not be disclosing information pertaining to what is currently in development.
3: Anger and emotion will have less impact than intelligent discussion.
4: Together we will share and evolve design philosophies which will impact how we develop the game moving forward.
5: Aggression and disrespect to a fellow community member or developer will not be tolerated, and in the extreme could lead to the shutting down of the initiative.
6: The teams primary focus is work toward the development of GW2 and therefore posting of discussion and commentary may not be as frequent as you like. Please do understand that the initiative is taken very seriously by us all and that we will be reading the discussions and joining in as often as it is possible to do so.

We will be focusing on Horizontal progression in this thread.

Here is a handy summary of some of the discussion so far. Thanks Bezagron:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/6#post3410790

Link to various summaries collated by Lost Witch:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Summaries/first#post3442156

A link to the previous Vertical progression thread can be found here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Vertical/first

Finally please note this is not a competition either between yourselves or the developers in regard to one up man ship. The point of this Initiative is to work together to make the game better.

Note: We will disclose the ideas we do or don’t like as a group but we will not discuss schedules or timing around implementation. If there is still concern surrounding how seriously we take community collaboration then please do take the time to think about how much impact the community has had on the working of this game over the year.

Chris

P.S: Here is a discussion about the recent Vertical discussion thread from Massively! for those who are new to the CDI process:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/17/flameseeker-chronicles-we-will-control-guild-wars-2s-horizonta/

(edited by Chris Whiteside.6102)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

I am going to lock the thread in preparation for the horizontal discussion thread. Thanks for your awesome participation and the value that you have added to GW2.

See you soon. Note I still have quite a lot of work to do today so please bear with me.

Looking forward to my vacation……

Chris

(edited by Chris Whiteside.6102)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

(edited by Moderator)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Dev post recap: part 3

Page 31-39

Earlier recaps:

Dev post recap: part 1

Dev post recap: part 2

General:

Isaiah on ascended runes and sigils

Isaiah on ascended and alt issues

Chris’s final proposal on ascended gear going forward

Dev questions and discussion requests:

Should we make a new thread for horizontal progression?

Devs responding to individual posts:

Isaiah posting two more replies on page 32

Chris may look back at the CDI in the future and let us know how it impacted design

The end of this part of the CDI: Character Progression – Ascended gear:

Chris thanks us for the input and takes the proposal to the team

Since the previous recap we have finetuned Chris’s proposal and had some aftertalk concerning timegating. It is now time to move on to horizontal progression. And that topic may very well get a new thread!

<3

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hi All,

Chris

Bump. We are close to being able to move onto the ‘focused’ Horizontal Progression part of this conversation.

Does anyone have anymore comments on the proposal above based on our discussions?

Chris

The above proposal for vertical progression really only relates to ascended gear. Since ascended gear is now pretty much all in the game (and noting your comments on ascended runes / sigils), does this mean there will be no more vertical progression going forward?

I would like to see futher vertical progression, which was not gear based.

HI Abramelin,

Can you elaborate on the type of Vertical Progression you are referencing please? This will help me better understand your question.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Ok folks. Thanks for all of your input. I will take this proposal and discuss it with the team.

Let’s take a break tonight (feel free to carry on chatting if you like) and tomorrow let’s begin the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression! Huzzah.

Chris

P.S: Remember the thread is going to be open until the new year, so take your time, and where possible try to be concise and have fun!

And while you are all taking a break check out a commentary on the great work you are all doing:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/17/flameseeker-chronicles-we-will-control-guild-wars-2s-horizonta/

Chris

(edited by Chris Whiteside.6102)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Ok folks. Thanks for all of your input. I will take this proposal and discuss it with the team.

Let’s take a break tonight (feel free to carry on chatting if you like) and tomorrow let’s begin the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression! Huzzah.

Chris

P.S: Remember the thread is going to be open until the new year, so take your time, and where possible try to be concise and have fun!

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

I very much hope to see clear results from these CDI topics down the road.

It’d be great, after the process of going through the information, talking behind closed doors, spending the months it takes to implement changes, and finally putting it into game, if Chris could point back to these threads and show us where something in this conversation made a real difference in the game.

I like this idea:

’ if Chris could point back to these threads and show us where something in this conversation made a real difference in the game.’

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hi All,

Here is the next evolution of the original Vertical Progression proposal based on a summary of our discussions:

Regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method.

A review of current RNG metrics.

The ability to change gear stats (Note there is still a lot of discussion about whether people want this or not)

The ability to build up to Ascended Gear through drops rather than just relying on RNG.

Ascended Gear mats dropping more equally across the game, for example WvW.

No more new Gear tiers that make the existing tiers obsolete.

Additional ways to earn Ascended Gear at accelerated for Alts.

Note this is the formulation of a proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of actions or schedule.

Chris

Bump. We are close to being able to move onto the ‘focused’ Horizontal Progression part of this conversation.

Does anyone have anymore comments on the proposal above based on our discussions?

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hi All,

Here is the next evolution of the original Vertical Progression proposal based on a summary of our discussions:

Regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method.

A review of current RNG metrics.

The ability to change gear stats (Note there is still a lot of discussion about whether people want this or not)

The ability to build up to Ascended Gear through drops rather than just relying on RNG.

Ascended Gear mats dropping more equally across the game, for example WvW.

No more new Gear tiers that make the existing tiers obsolete.

Additional ways to earn Ascended Gear at accelerated for Alts.

Note this is the formulation of a proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of actions or schedule.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Personally following the last proposal I put forward I am still listening and thinking to the CDI groups discussion and considerations. I am sorry if this isn’t moving fast enough for you but this thread isn’t closing anytime soon and I am a patient man.

Chris

Chris,

My apologies if I am just missing something, but I cannot find this proposal you are referencing. Searching through the Dev Tracker and this thread, I see the following:

11:55 – a post stating that you are building a proposal.
17:11 – a comment about several points that will impact the in-process proposal.
19:22 – the above quote where you refer to the previously presented proposal.

Unfortunately, I do not have much time to post back-and-forth during the week, nor time to sift through 29 (and counting) pages, but I would really like to see the resultant direction of this discussion and have a chance to comment further before the Vertical segment is closed and Horizontal is opened.

Would it be possible to post a summary proposal for the direction of vertical progression with a very easily identifiable and bolded title for those of us that are time-impaired during the week?

Hi Bill,

I will try to make the next evolution of the proposal easier to access. The Lost Witch did a great summary which I plan to link to the OP as well.

We need to build a better way of referencing summaries, proposals and major discussion points in the CDI for sure. But that is a topic for the next CDI Process Evolution thread.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hi Guhracie,

The point you made that bothers me is this:

‘And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion.’

We are very passionate about the game, the community and the CDI. As such a huge amount of effort goes into it both from a Dev and community standpoint. I am sorry if I have upset you, that is not my intention. The point I am trying to make is that the CDI isn’t about what the Devs say, it is about the discussion we all have and the conclusions that are drawn from this. Thus if I am saying that somehting is an interesting idea I am saying that I am thinking about it and that it is worth group discussion in my opinion.

I hope this makes more sense?

Oh and in regard to folks questioning how I play. Well that really is water of a ducks back, and I would rather expend my energy having a healthy conversation than spending time explaining the obvious.

Cheers

Chris

Okay, I see where we broke down, and I totally understand why that sounded insulting. That is absolutely not what I meant by it. I don’t believe you are brushing us off by responding with “interesting ideas,” but I feel like there’s a point where the discussion does become circular due to your own constraints of not making promises or getting into specifics (both are totally reasonable and understandable).

As for me sounding impatient…. that’s because I am. I came into this thread excited by the topics, and I feel like the topic has become “ascended armor” when it was supposed to be about progression. I am not even slightly interested in discussing ascended armor. If I have a single crafting skill above 400, it was on accident. I am in no way saying that it’s not a valid topic of discussion for vertical progression, please do not misunderstand me. I just had a different expectation of what this topic would be covering, and I wasn’t expecting it to be dominated by ascended armor.

I’d be totally happy to sit out of a CDI called “Ascended Armor” and let the people who feel strongly about it discuss it. But I currently feel like I have to plod through posts about ascended armor so I don’t miss something that might be relevant to my interests… which is why I mentioned a summary of what has been mentioned about vertical progression. I’m anxious to get to horizontal progression because it’s one of the biggest reasons I switched to GW2 from WoW. And if I knew I wasn’t missing out on any of that discussion (or other vertical progress ideas not pertaining directly to ascended armor), I’d probably be spending way less time in this thread.

I’m terrible at portraying tone in text, but I am seriously sorry you felt like I was diminishing your efforts in this thread. That’s not what I meant at all. Thank you for your clarification. I think I’m going to take a break from foruming for right now- sometimes I get too stuck in my own head, as well.

<Virtual hugs>. I too am anxious to get to the Horizontal Progression part of the thread and I think we will get there soon, but I still think there is some discussion to be had before moving on. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and understanding my passion around GW2, the community and the CDI. I look forward to continuing to discuss the game with you whatever the topic may be.

Chris

(edited by Chris Whiteside.6102)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

Hi Cesmode,

This is one for Izzy for sure. I am sure he will respond tomorrow. In all honesty I set a bad example in terms of my presence on the thread and I think that skews expectations on members of staff who aren’t workaholics (-:

Chris

hi chris!

i want all gear to be able to unlock stats skins and swap to them. i know a lot of other people want this too. will this be considered? thanks!

for example,
unlock armor stats one by one, swap armor stats
unlock runes one by one, swap runes

unlock weapon stats one by one, swap weapon stats
unlock sigils one by one, swap sigils

unlock armors skins one by one, swap armors skins
unlock weapons skins one by one, swap weapons skins
unlock trinkets inventory icons one by one, swap trinkets icon

unlock and swap various infusions too.

Hi Deimos,

I have definitely read this and sorry for not discussing it sooner. This is not something I can comment on currently. Sorry.

Chris

Edit: Thanks Deimos for pointing out the typo. I really need to get some sleep.

(edited by Chris Whiteside.6102)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

Hi Cesmode,

This is one for Izzy for sure. I am sure he will respond tomorrow. In all honesty I set a bad example in terms of my presence on the thread and I think that skews expectations on members of staff who aren’t workaholics (-:

Chris

You mean to say, they do not work 20 hours per day and love it? What is this witch craft?!

Go get your daily done and get to sleep!

And then answer the question(kidding).

But maybe you could leave a post-it on his desk tomorrow morning! haha.

Oh and you might laugh about the post-it note but I did send him an email (-: I am sure he will really appreciate that.

<3 you Izzy!

Chris

(edited by Chris Whiteside.6102)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

Hi Cesmode,

This is one for Izzy for sure. I am sure he will respond tomorrow. In all honesty I set a bad example in terms of my presence on the thread and I think that skews expectations on members of staff who aren’t workaholics (-:

Chris

You mean to say, they do not work 20 hours per day and love it? What is this witch craft?!

Go get your daily done and get to sleep!

And then answer the question(kidding).

But maybe you could leave a post-it on his desk tomorrow morning! haha.

I just did my daily, killed SB, Karka Queen and Claw of Jormag and now i intend to go home and get some sleep.

Thanks all for a great contribution today, I really appreciate all the passion and value you are sharing toward GW2 and I will see you all tomorrow.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

Hi Cesmode,

This is one for Izzy for sure. I am sure he will respond tomorrow. In all honesty I set a bad example in terms of my presence on the thread and I think that skews expectations on members of staff who aren’t workaholics (-:

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

1. We didn’t want another tier of gear; you guys knew that and implemented it anyway, so now we’re stuck with it.

Players rarely ever want their pet class nerfed, but its still necessary to the health of the game to do it from time to time. Consensus and Balance are distantly related on the best days and full-blown adversaries on more than a few.

While I have some issues with the specifics of Ascended acquisition, it’s not that hard to recognize the pressures at work that convinced them that the concept needed to be introduced to the game.

Keep in mind that prior to the release of the first Ascended items, the single most efficient way to advance your character was play the Trading Post. Full Stop. If you spent your time doing DEs or running dungeons you were a serf laboring in the fields in the service of your Trading Post betters. It was soul-sucking. Nothing you could do swinging your sword came close, and even today most people have this obsession with amassing gold when doing so mostly fattens you up to get fleeced at the market. The range of rewards that must be earned rather than bought is still astonishingly thin.

If anything the current crafting-only model of weapons and armor is a bit of a backslide towards ‘TP-uber-alles’. I sincerely hope that the currencies of heroism like skill points, karma, and various tokens get moved back to center stage as the means and the measure of characters’ mechanical advancement ~ vertical or horizontal.

I really just set out to summarize the thread to see if anything new was actually being said about vertical progression, or if we were just going in circles, this far into the discussion about it. And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion. Regardless, that was basically the first sort of comment that was picked up and addressed in the thread.

I’m in total agreement about consensus vs. balance, but I think it’s clear that balance isn’t being discussed here, on many levels.

I’m all for progress, and there’s truly no way to please everyone, but given the possibilities for vertical progression in a game like GW2, it seems like a middle ground other than “gear treadmill” might have been a more viable solution.

Hi Guhracie,

Will all due respect there has been a huge amount of dialog, discussion, ideation, summary and proposals. If you want to add value to the thread then I suggest you read it. Until then I am going to take everything you say with a large handful of salt. Sorry.

Chris

I do not even know how to begin to respond to this. My hands are literally shaking right now, on account of the time and effort I have put into reading and responding to this thread, and generally into participating in the forum.

I wouldn’t want to give you heart trouble, so I’m going to go ahead and reduce your sodium intake. I’m done.

However, for what it’s worth, the previous statement was in no way meant to be an attack on you in any way, and I’m sorry it broke down our communication and/or made you feel badly. I’m truly and honestly not sure what you found to be so insulting. I just re-read what I wrote and maybe it was the bit about not discussing balance?

Seriously, there are people here who are mocking your ability to play the game you work on and obviously love, but I’m the one who gets a handful of salt? Stay classy.

Hi Guhracie,

The point you made that bothers me is this:

‘And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion.’

We are very passionate about the game, the community and the CDI. As such a huge amount of effort goes into it both from a Dev and community standpoint. I am sorry if I have upset you, that is not my intention. The point I am trying to make is that the CDI isn’t about what the Devs say, it is about the discussion we all have and the conclusions that are drawn from this. Thus if I am saying that if something is an interesting idea I am saying that I am thinking about it and that it is worth group discussion in my opinion.

I hope this makes more sense?

Oh and in regard to folks questioning how I play. Well that really is water of a ducks back, and I would rather expend my energy having a healthy conversation than spending time explaining the obvious.

I am truly sorry for upsetting you.

Cheers

Chris

(edited by Chris Whiteside.6102)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

1. We didn’t want another tier of gear; you guys knew that and implemented it anyway, so now we’re stuck with it.

Players rarely ever want their pet class nerfed, but its still necessary to the health of the game to do it from time to time. Consensus and Balance are distantly related on the best days and full-blown adversaries on more than a few.

While I have some issues with the specifics of Ascended acquisition, it’s not that hard to recognize the pressures at work that convinced them that the concept needed to be introduced to the game.

Keep in mind that prior to the release of the first Ascended items, the single most efficient way to advance your character was play the Trading Post. Full Stop. If you spent your time doing DEs or running dungeons you were a serf laboring in the fields in the service of your Trading Post betters. It was soul-sucking. Nothing you could do swinging your sword came close, and even today most people have this obsession with amassing gold when doing so mostly fattens you up to get fleeced at the market. The range of rewards that must be earned rather than bought is still astonishingly thin.

If anything the current crafting-only model of weapons and armor is a bit of a backslide towards ‘TP-uber-alles’. I sincerely hope that the currencies of heroism like skill points, karma, and various tokens get moved back to center stage as the means and the measure of characters’ mechanical advancement ~ vertical or horizontal.

I really just set out to summarize the thread to see if anything new was actually being said about vertical progression, or if we were just going in circles, this far into the discussion about it. And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion. Regardless, that was basically the first sort of comment that was picked up and addressed in the thread.

I’m in total agreement about consensus vs. balance, but I think it’s clear that balance isn’t being discussed here, on many levels.

I’m all for progress, and there’s truly no way to please everyone, but given the possibilities for vertical progression in a game like GW2, it seems like a middle ground other than “gear treadmill” might have been a more viable solution.

Hi Guhracie,

Will all due respect there has been a huge amount of dialog, discussion, ideation, summary and proposals. If you want to add value to the thread then I suggest you read it. Until then I am going to take everything you say with a large handful of salt. Sorry.

Chris

Personally following the last proposal I put forward I am still listening and thinking to the CDI groups discussion and considerations. I am sorry if this isn’t moving fast enough for you but this thread isn’t closing anytime soon and I am a patient man.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

1. We didn’t want another tier of gear; you guys knew that and implemented it anyway, so now we’re stuck with it.

Players rarely ever want their pet class nerfed, but its still necessary to the health of the game to do it from time to time. Consensus and Balance are distantly related on the best days and full-blown adversaries on more than a few.

While I have some issues with the specifics of Ascended acquisition, it’s not that hard to recognize the pressures at work that convinced them that the concept needed to be introduced to the game.

Keep in mind that prior to the release of the first Ascended items, the single most efficient way to advance your character was play the Trading Post. Full Stop. If you spent your time doing DEs or running dungeons you were a serf laboring in the fields in the service of your Trading Post betters. It was soul-sucking. Nothing you could do swinging your sword came close, and even today most people have this obsession with amassing gold when doing so mostly fattens you up to get fleeced at the market. The range of rewards that must be earned rather than bought is still astonishingly thin.

If anything the current crafting-only model of weapons and armor is a bit of a backslide towards ‘TP-uber-alles’. I sincerely hope that the currencies of heroism like skill points, karma, and various tokens get moved back to center stage as the means and the measure of characters’ mechanical advancement ~ vertical or horizontal.

I really just set out to summarize the thread to see if anything new was actually being said about vertical progression, or if we were just going in circles, this far into the discussion about it. And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion. Regardless, that was basically the first sort of comment that was picked up and addressed in the thread.

I’m in total agreement about consensus vs. balance, but I think it’s clear that balance isn’t being discussed here, on many levels.

I’m all for progress, and there’s truly no way to please everyone, but given the possibilities for vertical progression in a game like GW2, it seems like a middle ground other than “gear treadmill” might have been a more viable solution.

Hi Guhracie,

Will all due respect there has been a huge amount of dialog, discussion, ideation, summary and proposals. If you want to add value to the thread then I suggest you read it. Until then I am going to take everything you say with a large handful of salt. Sorry.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

The proposals will evolve and when we are all happy with it we can cap the Vertical progression conversation in this thread and then I will feedback on my thoughts etc.

((Shakes head)) ‘When we are all happy with it’ ((Bursts into slightly manic giggles))

And people call me an optimist .

Incidentally, your mailbox is full.

Ok so we aren’t going to get to the point where everyone is happy. Please forgive me for my turn of phrase (-:

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

It’s been a long day at work, so please understand that if I come across as less than pleasant, it is not my intention.

When this thread was started, we were discussing vertical vs. horizontal progression.

We, en masse, were trying to discuss what types of vertical progression was acceptable and what kinds were not, and also suggesting ways to incorporate more horizontal progression.

What it has seemed to turn into is a large discussion of Ascended gear.
…..

Anyways, I digress. The point of this post is that we have pretty much forsaken the discussion of implementing any horizontal progression in favor of discussing the pros and cons of Ascended armor and how to go about getting it.

TL;DR:
Might it be a possibility someday to open a CDI solely on ideas for horizontal progression and leave this one to the discussion of Ascended gear?

Snipped by me to highlight my favourite bits. I, personally, would be happy to copy/paste and/or rewrite my posts on horizontal progression in a thread dedicated to actually discussing horizontal progression.

Here’s my summary of the vertical progression discussion:
1. We didn’t want another tier of gear; you guys knew that and implemented it anyway, so now we’re stuck with it.
2. We want more ways to acquire it and more ways for alts to gear up.
3. Do something with the rune/sigil system. It’s awful and punishingly expensive right now.
4. Don’t give us yet another tier of gear after ascended. It will burn up the remainder of any goodwill you still have.
5. Don’t reset vertical progression in the future. Doing the reset to fractal level without doing anything to acknowledge the work people did before the reset (a title, a helm, a little trophy in their home instance, a single post on the forum acknowledging the issue; ANYTHING) was shoddy, and you’re better than that.
6. Make use of karma and other currencies.
7. Remember the mission statement of “Play how you want”

Thanks Guhracie,

Some good points here. I wont answer them individually but they will impact the evolved proposal I put forward for us to discuss.

Note a number of people have asked about the proposal. Basically it allows us to hone in one the core individual proposals and then discuss the whole. The proposals will evolve and when we are all happy with it we can cap the Vertical progression conversation in this thread and then I will feedback on my thoughts etc.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

You might want to edit that .

(Horizontal and Vertical are reversed)

Thanks Nike. Doh!

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

It’s been a long day at work, so please understand that if I come across as less than pleasant, it is not my intention.

When this thread was started, we were discussing vertical vs. horizontal progression.

We, en masse, were trying to discuss what types of vertical progression was acceptable and what kinds were not, and also suggesting ways to incorporate more horizontal progression.

What it has seemed to turn into is a large discussion of Ascended gear. We truly need more discussion of horizontal progression.

I am one of those players who truly does not care if I ever get ascended gear or a legendary. (if it happens someday, cool, but not actively pursuing it.) The key for me is that there be no content that requires ascended gear. I do not want to be locked out of something simply because my gear doesn’t cut it. Yes, I know that some players will be elitists and ask to ping armor, and if you don’t have ascended, you’ll get kicked. That isn’t what I mean.

Horizontal progression to me is having the world at my fingertips, and being able to gain shineys or awards that give me the sense of accomplishment other than having a specific set of gear that says “Hey, I’ve got money!!!” or “I can farm better than you can!!!”

I think that some of what we need is less Gem Shop items and more In Game items. Why should all the cool armor and weapon skins be Gem Shop? I am not opposed to them, but there needs to be a balance of in-game rewards as well. We have a number of sets of back items (just lovely…/endsarcasm) but “special” armor or weapon skins are almost exclusively gem shop items or BL Chest lottery, which again, is Gem Shop related in that you have to get the keys from somewhere since they don’t drop in the world very often. I can honestly say that the only keys I have ever gotten have been from PS rewards or purchased. I can’t remember any other time I have ever had one drop.

I also suggest that there be a chance to get unique skins from Champ encounters. I wouldn’t want them to drop from low-level champs, but anywhere there’s a level 75-80 champ that takes more than a few people and more than just spamming 111111611111 to kill. If that’s still too much, how about Temple events? or maybe completing the zone meta event for a level 80 zone?

Anyways, I digress. The point of this post is that we have pretty much forsaken the discussion of implementing any horizontal progression in favor of discussing the pros and cons of Ascended armor and how to go about getting it.

TL;DR:
Might it be a possibility someday to open a CDI solely on ideas for horizontal progression and leave this one to the discussion of Ascended gear?

Hi Ashabhi,

Once we have finished talking about Vertical we will cap that conversation and move onto purely Horizontal. Note though that it is important to have had the initial phase where we have discussed both as they do inter relate or at least have done.

Please also note that this thread will be going on until the New Year, so plenty of time for further discussion.

Hope your day gets better,

Chris

(edited by Chris Whiteside.6102)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Putting the fractals aside, I just wanted to thank you, Chris for taking your time in discussing ideas and views in these topics. Given some ideas are quite interesting, some very detailed, optimistic and creative, while some are quite scary and self-motivated. Regardless the focus and issue you seem to give people hope that they’re being heard. That their passion for the game is being seen by people that made what we, the players, practically love.
It is understood that most of the ideas will never see the daylight, but one way of another you give people the feeling of importance that they are being heard. Even if those things are not implemented in one way maybe they’ll be implemented in another aspect giving the collective mind some meaning in this whole thing.
I have to admit that when this topic began I had very little faith left in me as to where this game is headed, but as I read though most of the replies, the positiveness and the passion behind some of the ideas and suggestions are very uplifting. And having you and the team to acknowledge these ideas even by something small as “That’s an interesting idea” gives me and I’m sure many of us some hope for the future of this game (:

Hi Romo,

Thank you and everyone else for the kind works regarding CDI (It isn’t necessary, I understand you guys and girls all care but it does make me feel more confident about the overall importance of the CDI). To give some insight: some of our conversations lead to direct action following internal discussion, most carry through to meetings in our offices and help us to navigate problem solving and solidify or build new/existing ideas. More importantly however we get a better understanding of how you the citizens and heroes of Tyria, the life blood of the world live and breathe the design of the construct. I have 2k hours played but nowhere near enough to have a broad spectrum of understanding about what you like and don’t like or how you would see it working better. On top of that I love the game but I am an individual and have my own opinions about what I like and don’t like. So to have broad strokes of players from all walks of Tyrian life and different likes and dislikes discuss the with one another these topics often gives us much needed perspective. On top of this it helps everyone to get a good understanding of the big picture of the logic interaction of our systems and mechanics thus making us all more empowered to make valuable moves to making GW2 the very best online world it can be.

Anyway in short the CDI has a huge impact.

Finally I am in between meetings so sorry for the dump of info.

Chris

(edited by Chris Whiteside.6102)

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Also Chris, you said that you would be thinking on the whole Fractal reset thing (to Romo quite a few pages ago). Can those of us who are interested in that particular response expect to see something about it in this thread or will it be brought up in a separate one?

Thanks!

I think it is ok to discuss it in this thread and honestly I am still thinking about it.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Is it possible for us to get an idea from you, Chris, of the concepts you think stand out and may have an impact on the future of progression? Right now it’s a lot of you repeating our ideas optimistically, but not a lot of context (with all due respect).

I have been building a proposal on behalf of everyone. I am still seeing how the discussion plays out on other ideas. I will continue to update the proposal. This is how I am approaching the ideation discussion. I think I have called out the idea that are interesting however I don’t understadn what you mean by ‘Not a lot of context’.

If you are looking for definitive promises on work actions then I am afraid that is something I won’t be doing. If you are looking for thoughts on direction moving forward then you can find this all over the thread and there will be a summary in this regard upon conclusion of the Vertical discussion before centering of the Horizintal discussion.

Hope this helps?

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Is it fair to say that regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method?

Chris

I would say that is true pretty much about all items. However I see this strategy being problematic unless you increase the overall amount of items in the game. Supply vs demand basically. Scale it so that ascended weapons/armor only drop from the hardest of pve related events in the game, and exotics drop from lower difficulty events, and just leave the drop rate of precursors the same so that you dont diminish the rarity of legendary’s. PvE in this game has so much potential however has been largely undeveloped.

I like this idea of higher drop rates for harder content but it still neglects wvw so I would like to add. Higher drop rates in wvw from Player kills modified by the players rank. Higher rank = better chance to get something good from them. In theory higher rank players should have more experience and thus be more difficult to fight.

Interesting idea.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Sorry you don’t see it this way Nike.

Ironically, I personally don’t have a major issue with Ascended gear as it was introduced. To me it mostly does what it set out to: The tier gives me a series of goals to work towards. I’ve faithfully put Ascended rings & amulets on every one of my nine 80th level characters. Half of them also have ascended back items and accessories. I’ve crafted 2 Ascended weapons, had a third drop as a chest, and made my first piece of Ascended armor (for cosmetic reasons more than the stats) just this morning. If I were solely focused on a single Main and a BiS perfectionist I would be very nearly done devouring the system that’s been put in place.

For that reason its hard for me to feel the system is too fast. But I do think it’s too limited in the play styles it caters to. I happen to be a crafter and harvester. I don’t expect everyone else to be those things too .

But none of that makes me unaware of the unrest my fellow players are experiencing.

But this thread has been super useful for us already and no doubt super useful to those who have spent the time to contribute to it.

I agree completely. Its been an entertaining ride as always. And I look forward to seeing the impact on the game when it works its way through the system.

In suggesting a separate thread, I was just pointing out this thread has two orthogonal narratives jumbled together and reading 800 posts about vertical progression may have kind of buried the 50-odd posts addressing new horizontal concepts.

IF this board has the moderation tools to surgically lift those out and start a new thread with them that would be great. If not, obviously you can’t… And I wouldn’t want people to have to re-post their thoughts in a new thread by hand. Just expect than when the thread does formally shift gears to “Lets talk Horizontal” you’re still gonna get Ascended chatter and people who’ve only read page one shotgunned all through the new topic .

I understand, thanks for the extra detail Nike.I was thinking about your suggestion to about splitting the thread but I worry about the lost discussion in regard to horizontal by doing so.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Give the ascended gear either “limited” stat swapping or full stat swapping like legendaries…or a way (a quest for instance) that would allow you to Add a stat for stat swapping.

If there were epic quests in place where you could unlock stat combinations for your gear that’d be.. awesome. That would be unbelievably awesome.

No more grind; make it about challenges.

I agree, would love to hear from Chris on this idea specifically, epic quest chains to unlock swappable item stats and new item stat combos.

This is a cool idea. Lots of logic problems to think about in regard to it. Need more time to think (-:

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hi Nike,

There is no morass and no concept of ‘us’ trying to dig ourselves out of it.

((shrug)) I won’t quibble over the use of evocative terminology, but I suspect if we could somehow call for a show of hands and asked “Hey, how many people think BiS gear for 10 slots should be gated behind RNG and Crafting with ZERO alternatives” you’d end up counting more chirping crickets than paws going up .

((chirp—chirp—chirp))

Like I keep saying I am very much looking forward to concentrating on Horizontal Progression. In the meantime however I want to make sure that we give Ascended the attention it is due.

Other than wrangling some numbers/price points which would be better handled by people who can actually poll the game’s progress metrics (i.e. not us players), I think I’ve said my piece .

I look forward to the Horizontal Phase also…

…You sure you wouldn’t rather start it as a fresh and focused thread?

Might work out better than ‘gating’ it behind 30+ pages of tangential-at-best reading .

Sorry you don’t see it this way Nike. But this thread has been super useful for us already and no doubt super useful to those who have spent the time to contribute to it.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Still no Dev comment that I’ve seen on Time Gates, something that many players brought up early in this thread. Sort of disappointed by that.

Hi Herr,

I have asked Izzy to respond to that particular question as mentioned on Saturday. Note however that I do not expect my team to work over weekends, therefore i am sure he will respond as soon as he can.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

I can’t possibly disagree more with this opinion. If accessibility becomes to easy you will soon enough find a new problem where some players have all the ascended gear they want.

I think the direction gaining momentum is less that acquisition needs to be faster and more there need to be multiple paths of comparable difficulty/time investment.

Making each piece count as all 17 possible pieces (and hey, what happened to Giver stats anyway…?) at the same time as allowing players to acquire them by multiple tracks simultaneously is gonna turn the tier into a rubber stamp, not an intermediate activity while inching up on your Legendary.

I understand the appeal for the players, but I don’t think it’s a good call for the game.

As a result they’ll begin to demand more progression past ascended.

I don’t think I’m alone in my willingness to tell those players “bite me.”

‘Vertical progressionists’ had their say once already and the result is this morass we’re digging out of now.

Lets not indulge in the insanity of repeating it.

Hi Nike,

There is no morass and no concept of ‘us’ trying to dig ourselves out of it.We are having a discussion about accessibility around ascended gear in relation to how the community wants to acquire it. I still stand by its inclusion and want to ensure that it is equidistantly positioned between Exotic and Legendary. I also want to ensure it is accessible to all players specifically in regard to how they play within the world.

These are all areas we have thought about at Anet. Personally I don’t think there is anything wrong with having an open discussion with everyone about how the play, and their feelings toward the opinions of other members of the community and the Developers.

Like i keep saying i am very much looking forward to concentrating on Horizontal Progression. In the meantime however I want to make sure that we give Ascended the attention it is due.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

I realize this is a bit behind the current debate but it was a good question which seemed worth answering.

Agreed. Let’s spend a little more time discussing and brainstorming the following questions:

Controversial: Vertical Progression acquisition can be a pain but what if any elements do you like about Vertical Progression?

Lets keep coming up with some awesome Horizontal Progression systemic ideas and also reward ideas?

Try to tie these ideas into the core foundation of GW2’s systems and mechanics please.

Chris

While I prefer horizontal progression, vertical progression does not in and of itself suck, the problem is that ANet chose perhaps the poorest quality way of developing vertical progression. Vertical progression via items is particularly terrible because of its innately “temporary” feeling, bottom line sooner or later all of the effort you’ve put into vertical progression via item grind becomes pointless. I’ll try to explain my thoughts on the subject succinctly below.

What is fun about vertical progression?

  • The feeling of character growth
  • The thrill of progress and the feeling that your efforts are being rewarded
  • The ability to display your time and effort spent

What is not fun about vertical progression?

  • The invalidation of all of your past efforts
  • The feeling of monotony

What might be done to make vertical progression in GW2 more enjoyable?

  • Attach more progression to your character rather than gear
  • Make gear upgradeable rather than disposable

People rarely point out SWTOR as a brillaint show of MMO ideas, but lots of the account unlock ideas worked into SWTOR would work nicely in GW. This material was all doubtlessly vertical progression but it wasn’t attached to RNG and the newest “Sword of Pwning +1” that would soon be made worthless by your “Sword of Pwning +2”. Even in GW2 the new approach to infusions (though it sucks that they can’t be removed, fix this) is built on developing strength rather than replacing it. You combine your +1 infusions to get +2s, rather than just throwing those +1s away.

Good post Dreamer. Excellent food for thought.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Is it fair to say that regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method?

Chris

Possibly, or in lieu of that a means to add flexibility to the gear to allow for stat changes without needing to create a whole new set (see my inscription idea as an example).

Someone creates a whole set of berserker ascended and finds themselves getting rolled still (as glass cannons do) in WvW may have buyers remorse when that PVT set starts looking mighty tempting…

Yep thanks Volk for adding Stat changes to the proposal.

’Is it fair to say that regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method?

The ability to change gear stats.

The ability to potentially use tokens from encounters (allowing users to work toward acquisition of Ascended Gear) that would otherwise only offer RNG chances on Ascended Gear, allowing users to work toward the items (courtesy of Nike and others)’

Note this is the formulation of a proposal for discussion.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Is it fair to say that regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method?

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

I play a PVT AOE Heal shout War. I have played this role fora long period of time and have never played a DPS War. On top of this I am also easily able to hold agro and support my group. My DPS is terrible but I keep my team alive while they run around destroying everything…

I like you believe that Horizontal Progression should be about role differentiation, however I feel like this system is already very core to the game…

Chris

It’s an excellent point that I think gets overlooked because of the prominence of popular cookie-cutter builds. I feel like those builds are good teaching tools, but it’s easy to lean on them as crutches. There seems to be a reluctance to stray too far from the “tried-and-true” builds.

I’d like to see Horizontal progression in terms of role diversification and hybridization. I’d love to see more options for “exotic” builds that step outside of the normal comfort zone of the professions to add more flexibility to builds, and new ways to engage content (read as: wreck kittens).

It seems to me that there are a lot of options for dps and damage mitigation, but there is tremendous opportunity to expand the meta game in other aspects of combat:

  • Toggle Abilities
  • Inter-profession Synergy
  • Environmental Synergy

Toggle Abilities are Player States that are either on or off, depending on what the player needs at the moment. Risk and Reward should be a big part of Toggle balancing. For example, Warriors could have a “Determined Stance” that, when on, provides the Warrior with Stability, but drops Critical Hit Chance to 0% while the Toggle Ability is active.

Inter-profession Synergy is something that could be really exciting. It could also be really complex. It could work something like this:

  • This would be a Party mechanic that you would set up when you form your Party.
  • Each Profession has 1 Synergistic Effect with each of the other 7 Professions.
  • Each Party Member can only have 1 active Synergy Effect at a time.
  • To set up the Effect, you target the Party Member and “Offer Synergy”.
  • The Party Member accepts or declines the Synergy.
  • Synergies can be changed at any time outside of combat.

When the Synergy is active, both players benefit from the relationship. An example would be “Bond of Blood” between Warrior and Necromancer. While the Synergy is active, the Warrior’s attacks generate Life Force for the Necromancer. While in Death Shroud, a portion of the damage the Warrior takes comes off of the Necromancer’s Life Force Pool instead. This encourages players to work together in new ways.

Environmental Synergy is another Party Mechanic that could work in a number of ways, but basically it changes the ways professions operate under different circumstances. For example, a Guardian could have “Valiant Avenger” that grants the Guardian +Power or +Might for every Party Member that is either downed or dead. Necromancers could have “Parasitic Bond” that grants +Condition Damage for every Party Member that is below the Health Threshold. Rangers could have “Alpha Dog” that provides +Critical Damage for every active pet/minion in the party.

Hi JSDuke,

I agree with your initial points and also your ideas are very interesting. Certainly thinking out of the box, but at the same time building on core foundations.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hi All,

Just got back and am up to date. There are a number of posts I am going to think about before replying. I will either reply tonight or in the morning.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

I want to post this here while Chris is active. At least that way my posts might be seen.

Thoughts on Vertical Progression
Levels
Geared Stats

Thoughts on Horizontal Progression
Cosmetics
Achievements

Hi Mun,

Just wanted to let you know that I have read your posts and that I do stay on top of the thread. I read it as often as I am able. The reason there is no reply to the Vertical post you made is that I feel i have discussed those points in other responses. In regard to Horizontal I am focusing on Vertical currently so we can cap that conversation and move on.

Hope that makes sense?

Chris

Hi Mun,

Just wanted to let you know that I have read your posts and that I do stay on top of the thread. I read it as often as I am able. The reason there is no reply to the Vertical post you made is that I feel i have discussed those points in other responses. In regard to Horizontal I am focusing on Vertical currently so we can cap that conversation and move on.

Hope that makes sense?

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Personally and note this is not the opinion of Arena but I like the idea of uniquely skinned BiS items dropping in challenging content. My opinion as a player is that the current drop rates could be tweaked.

Chris

That will not remove the RNG factor…. Look at it this way:
Say you increased the drop rate on Tequatl. That means a higher change to get a weapon. But it is still RNG.
Some people will get several drops, others will get nothing, most will get items with the wrong stat combination. Please, please, please: No more RNG!

What if you could sell them? Thus complimentary to other forms of acquisition?

Chris

What’s the point of having an unique skin drop from a challenging encounter if you can just buy it on TP? Isn’t the point of the skin showing you beat the challenge? If a unique gear is gonna drop from a challenging encounter, it should be guaranteed and account bound, and the encounter really tough.

Yep your right sorry I should have given more detail in the brainstorm idea. In the idea I imagined Sunless not being trade able but other normal Ascended gear being trade able. Note this is just a brainstorm idea.

Chris

Non tradeable content-specif skin is great. Tradeable run-of-the-mill ascended sounds good in the beginning, but at these drop rates, they’re gonna be as expensive as precursors, and very prone to speculation, flipping etc… I think higher drop rates and keeping them account bound makes it more interesting. You could be able to pick in the box the type of gear and stat combo tho.

Bottom line: Find it while playing always beats the “farm, buy on tp” drudgery. But drop rates have to be decent.

Agreed.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

I am heading out for a bit and will be back home this evening. I feel like having read all of the discussion and great ideas that we are closer to putting forward proposals but not quite there yet. No worries though because we have a ton of time to continue to discuss so let’s give this part of the topic the time it deserves and continue to enjoy the conversation and collaboration.

Personally I am really enjoying and looking forward to more Horizontal Conversation but as they say, all good things come to those that wait.

Catch you all later,

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hello everyone,

i would like to give my point of view.

I have had problems motivating myself to play Guild Wars 2 for a while know. Here is my personal reason why: I love character progresstion.
I love game with a vast amout of thinks where my character can evolve. I love getting new attacks, getting new ways to combine my attacks, getting new cool weapons and abilitys. Mechanics that opens up while new levels of gameplay.

I am not the gear type, i dont care much about vertical Progression.
I am more in love with horizontal progression and this is,

where Guild Wars 2 lacks.

I play as Warrior and although i have plenty of Alts, my Warrior is my favorite.

But since there are so limited skills and abilities my character can obtain, i dont feel like progressing any longer. I know that i could go for some ascended gear but i am not really interesstet in shiny new armor. I would like to be able to choose my own fighting style rather then only my own look.

As the skill system in Guild Wars 2 is right now, people like me will feel unsatisfied without more abilities to be learned.

Personally i would like to see an enhanced combat system with more ways to progress, with more styles to play. The warrior next to me may have a better looking Greatsword than me, but he will always play like me, execute the same weapon skills with that awesome sword like me, no matter what. I feel like there are not enough ways to individualise at the machinical level.

Hi Fey,

I play a PVT AOE Heal shout War. I have played this role fora long period of time and have never played a DPS War. On top of this I am also easily able to hold agro and support my group. My DPS is terrible but I keep my team alive while they run around destroying everything (-: The reason I raise this is because I would like to know what your role is with you War and I am wondering if you are aware of the different roles that each Profession can play dependent on their traits/skill/sigil/rune and weapon setup?

Note I ‘Look’ like a DPS war because i use a great sword (greatsaw) and a Longbow (Arthropoda). I like you believe that Horizontal Progression should be about role differentiation, however I feel like this system is already very core to the game but that we could do a better job of teaching how it works to a broader audience.

In short there are multiple War and profession roles and thus it is quite unlikely that that War next to you plays just like you.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

I came up with this long ago but never made a post about it.

What about a diffrent part of Fractals of the mists that’s sort of a boss. Everytime when a party defeats a boss, they will fight against a harder boss. When the party is wiped, the party will get tp’ed back to the instance and have to start over. This will be hard content. I bet Arenanet and the community could think of bosses/ enemies from the past/present. Everytime you defeat a boss you will get better loot. (and mayble punish the players by letting them do it once a week.)

This is just my idea for progression (hard content).

Interesting Dark.

Chris

CDI- Character Progression- Vertical

in CDI

Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Personally and note this is not the opinion of Arena but I like the idea of uniquely skinned BiS items dropping in challenging content. My opinion as a player is that the current drop rates could be tweaked.

Chris

That will not remove the RNG factor…. Look at it this way:
Say you increased the drop rate on Tequatl. That means a higher change to get a weapon. But it is still RNG.
Some people will get several drops, others will get nothing, most will get items with the wrong stat combination. Please, please, please: No more RNG!

What if you could sell them? Thus complimentary to other forms of acquisition?

Chris

What’s the point of having an unique skin drop from a challenging encounter if you can just buy it on TP? Isn’t the point of the skin showing you beat the challenge? If a unique gear is gonna drop from a challenging encounter, it should be guaranteed and account bound, and the encounter really tough.

Yep your right sorry I should have given more detail in the brainstorm idea. In the idea I imagined Sunless not being trade able but other normal Ascended gear being trade able. Note this is just a brainstorm idea.

Chris