I was entirely pro the changes. I felt it would make warrior a profession that people needed to learn. After logging in my warrior still did well against light professions played averagely. It did ok with skilled professions played well…So with 900 odd hours at the warrior helm I can do ok..but some of the ‘updates’ have just been taken dramatically too far. The decay is too much vs it’s ability to gain. The GS burst is much smoother, but only hits marginally harder than a good crit auto attack. The increase to axe offhand is very so-so. Rifle is good, rousing is good (or will be after they fine tuned it’s release day bugs.)..all in all They took a good warrior adjustment and pushed it too by far 30%. Any celestial ele/ engi now just eats me and asks for more. I just can’t pressure them enough with damage for them to be put on the back foot.
Trying out longbow. I am having a hard time seeing how ppl think it is O.P. Even playing fully glass and getting tag by it by other rangers it got me for 6.4k,..and I am glass medium armour.
rangers are the new greatsword warriors now lol
For the last year warriors have been more devastating with longbows than rangers have been. We’ll call it balance.
I don’t think this is necro. In the last match I played (15 minutes ago) A lot of players were not getting prompts and needed to wiggle around a bit to get them. Remember a lot of players are all updating today off of the serves. Patience young jedi.
Played my warrior. I felt some of the changes were good. Now that I’ve seen how they are applied, disappointed. The decay on adrenaline is rapid to say the least, a number of the stun break on rousing don’t work and GS burst is nicer to use at the expense it does basically what a puffed up auto attack critical hit would do.
It’s their game, but disappointed i waited over 6 months for some very, very average updates to warrior.
ToL 2 finals. Both teams dropped guardian altogether. They replaced them with celestial ele’s and engi’s.
May as well play selfishly and be the new warrior. Your already outdated and replaced on mid as support.
Ranger water spirit. 35% chance to heal yourself (allies included) once every 10 seconds. The spirit needs to be master traited in order to get to receive better than 35% chance.
Imagine if your doctor told you, “You have a 1 in 10 chance at the opportunity to get 35% chance we might heal you.”..you pretty much cash in your insurance. May as well just make it a flat 3.5% chance. Necro SoV was introduced at the same time as this gem and engi AeD. In order to heal, someone has to down you first.
In all reality, this is most likely the most friendly language for engaging -some- of the development team. Props for trying.
Well the main reason I’m using a GS in pvp for one of my two weapons is to avoid zergs. People have to understand that GS, as a fighting weapon, is trash. Mobility IS its main purpose and thus, 1v1’ing is way way harder. If you force me to run away, making me abandon the cap, you won even if you didn’t kill me.
You asking for a nerf because you’re getting annoyed someone escaped in WvW is totally irrelevant. Fact is (and has always been): the game is balanced around Pvp and GS is fine, if not rather weak, in Pvp.
Agreed. If your chasing lone great sword warrior in WvW, your probably not doing anything remotely helpful for your server. All Pvp in this game revolves around holding nodes or keeps. It has never been about 1 vs 1 encounters.
As a thief (meant to be the most mobile class in the game), even if I used every thing in my ars (lol butts) enal. I still cannot catch these types of warriors. That’s if I wanted to put my thief at a severe disadvantage too.
Cripple, Chill, Immobilize, Fear, Daze, Knockdown?
I guess you haven’t heard of the warrior traits and food that renders all these abilities useless?
I say give warriors the elementalist treatment (like they did to ride the lightning). If the warrior movement skills do not hit a target: put those skills on a longer cool down. Problem solved.
Here are some direct quiotes from game play dev’s concerning profession mechanics.;
“Thief is designed to the profession that best controls the speed at which encounters are held…”
“Ele’s and engi’s are masters of diversity…”
“Ranger is the alpha pet handker profession…”
“Necro is designed to excel at manipulation..”
Memser game play is designed around confusing, dazzling and ultimately keeping the their opponent wondering.."
No where is it stated, or has it ever been stated who, or what is was meant to be the most agile and haste driven. So your claim that thief was meant to be the most mobile profession pretty much dies right there. Your designed allotment was driven by combat pace, not mobility pace. Just say’n.
It’s not an exploit. It’s just a way to bypass poor design. If your one of the sheeple that believe Anet understands how to balance their own game, then sure I could see how you would label it as an exploit.
Whether or not the design is poor isn’t relevant – that this is a way to “bypass” the design is what makes it an exploit.
how is it “bypassing” anything? you’re assuming that this isn’t by design that Necro’s can kill their own minions for Life Force after having it reset to zero prior to the match starting.
why else give players 10s prior to the gates opening and the match starting? hint: because it gives players the chance to buff up
Using skills while waiting for gates to open: puts those skills on cooldown, you can’t then swap those skills out again. I’m pretty sure this is the intended behaviour.
Using skills then equipping different weapons: you get to ignore the (possibly pretty long) cooldowns from the weapon skills you just cast, since you’re no longer using those weapons. You get to gain the effects of skills you don’t have equipped for the match… for at least some of the match.
Spawning minions then swapping the skills out again: doesn’t put the newly equipped skills on cooldown – so you have utility skills that are ready to use immediately – and generates life force that you’d otherwise have no way to get.
Honestly I’d like to see players locked into their class/build as of when they queued – particularly in soloq. There’s pretty much a second game of Reroll Wars 2 going on at the start of most matches, as well as the weapon/utility skillswap exploits used by many Eles and Necromancers (and others? Can’t quickly think of any others that really benefit apart from maybe one blast finisher).
Don’t forget the old signet warrior. Equip all signets when entering, swap weapon, swap utilities and precision signet affect remained intact. This was also a good one for rangers. equip all signets and get no use from them until you swapped them all back out again after match had started and then swap back to them.
Warrior. Ravager. Never played hambow. Only played 12-15 hours on duel sword condi. Always loved greatsword/sword+shield or axe/shield-sword/mace. My builds got stronger with change to f1 great sword burst.
If you sat in hambow/duel sword easy mode this entire time and never explored warrior, this patch will most certainly ruin you and relaying on longbow won’t win any where as many fights for you. However, if you didn’t dwell permanently on these 2 builds and learned warrior you’ll be fine.
Not too mention, if you engaged in pvp outside of hambow/duel sword easy mode and actually built up a mesmer, ranger, ele, engi etc..then this patch will give you more professions builds and buffs. If you took the time to run ranger and got good with them and were constantly just losing to sloppy hambow play purely because of how forgiving the build is, well this is going to be your lucky day. Now the shoe will be on the other foot and those who know warrior well will have to sing for their supper just like every other profession has to.
It is a good thing overall. The FoTM warrior’s will no doubt migrate to mesmer torment staff build. It was this influx of players posting there hambow vid’s over and over again that ultimately got warrior highlighted for nerfing..these ppl will be gone now.
Really disappointing to see this change.
It is apparent the balancing crew have no concept of recognising one key aspect in their balancing;
certain boss were made so reflect will not affect them. This decision was made because it was felt reflect was making some boss encounters trivial. So let’s look closely at what got made trivial here. 1) The boss complains it is being made trivial through reflects and feels that unshakable etc is not enough. 2) The players complain that the changes to reflect have trivialized reflect skills entirely. Who is better off here being trivialized? The lines of coding that make up the non real world boss who never complained in the first place?..or the very human players you depend on to keep a vested interested in your game?
Frost spirit is just another example of this. Who is truly complaining here about frost spirit?..the non living bosses with enormous health pools that are defiant and unshakable about the damage,…or the very real human players the game depends upon?
It seems entirely obvious, no matter what the thinking who should be appeased here. One of these groups are real people a-net depend upon..the other is a immaterial collection of coding that never complained in the first place. So who gets appeased?..yeah, the non real guy.
Go to any crafting station. Open up the workbench area of it. You’ll a small wardrobe icon on the bottom. Open that up. Select heavy set. You can now preview all your collected armours and armours you’ve yet to collect.
I honestly don’t believe warrior needs more nerfs, just restructuring. Those who love warrior and have taken the time to learn how to get the best from them won’t be overly affected. However those new to, and still learning the profession are required to make a fun investment into learning all the possible rotations, what synergies can be obtained, how to maximise damage and/or defense. Restructure them to be more inline with thief learning curve. At first if you spam skills needlessly and miss a lot it will be your downfall, however good set up’s and snares etc and understanding can create rewarding and devastating game play. I do believe the adrenaline down grades and missed bursts resulting in lost adrenaline will promote more of this style of game play. However, considering the crux of this post is about combustive shot, well most can agree it is not the damage or even the 100% proc of cleansing ire, or even the might field..it’s just how overtly large it is. The lesser adrenaline fields should be normalised and the full adrenaline field should be reduced but damage left intact. Del does have a point that it can be interrupted, but with some what good placement on the full adrenaline field it does take a double dodge to cleanly exit the field which kinda indicates the max field is very large. Making the max smaller, and the lesser’s more normalised so the decision making process about using it is purely about damage output rather than coverage would be good direction that doesn’t hamper warrior too much, but gives opponents room to move and still find ways to manage point capturing and acts as a disincentive to ‘lazy’ warrior fire and forget play. Currently a less experienced player can just sustain themselves to putting up fairly strong contests against others, it is just too forgiving. However when in the hands of experienced player, even myself as warrior player when rolling one of alts is amazed at how fast a skilled warrior can shred an opponent, even when that opponent (me) is well aware of their animations and weapon skills. In short, if your good with warrior..then you’ll remain good. If your new warrior, you gotta learn to be good with them and not be cotton wool wrapped of where you just don’t learn from your errors because all of your mistakes can be easily recovered from. This essentially what the warrior community has wanted for sometime since warrior became flavour of the month.
Endure pain+ Berserker stancearen’t the biggest issue.
The bigger issues which make warrior every forgiving to play and even in the hands of a relatively new player, still some what difficult to down are;
1) cleansing ire is not grand master level. Similar skills such as empathetic bond etc all are.
2) radically good traits at adept level. Furious reaction, deeper cuts, warrior sprint etc
3) healing/toughness stats both found in the same line where a weapon trait can also be found. Maximise hammer control by investing heavily in healing/toughness.
4) Better skill based balancing didn’t happen sooner leading to a warrior community that feels entitled and that they are fair and fine. The same thing happened with dhuum fire patch. Necro’s felt they were entitled to the buffs, but were nerfed much sooner. The warrior community has lived with their buffs for so long they just take the great skills they have for granted.
5) a lot..a mean a lot of leap finishers, blast finishers, evade skills and blocks..when you look at something like necro which has no leap finishers, no evade on use skills, no blocks..well, warrior always has a lot to bring to the table regardless of whatever weapon they use.
I love my warrior..but having 5 other alts i play regularly..it soon becomes warrior isn’t required to sing for its supper like other professions have to.
(edited by CntrlAltDefeat.1465)
Emphatic bond: Pet periodically removes 3 conditions from you.
Impale>EB kicks in and removes the torment>1 second later you have 2 stacks>then 3…
Even if you cleanse the first stack of torment, the remaining 4 will still apply themselves when using EB.
However in fairness, duel sword warrior is the gentle and highly forgiving build that makes newer and average players feel good. Because of this, as soon as you see the 2 swords, 99% of time it is always the opening attack they’ll use before swapping out to the ubiquitous longbow.
I watched an anet dev running thru the ranger profession. He had some interesting things to say.
1) sword 1 requires “Some geting use to it’s animation.”
2) Longbow does it’s best damage at maximum range, but that will also keep you out of range for boon swapping/sharing."
I stopped watching at that point.
Be aware that runes of the traveler are expensive and also do not provide the speed bonus in combat. Although it is not stated a number of people in the community have stated this and most of my alts run traveler and it appears correct. The time in combat and the time it takes to become OOC reduce your movement back to normal. However swiftness and signet of the hunt provide the 25% movement increase universally regardless of whether your in combat or not.
Yeah, that’s kinda my beef with it. On Imbued fire shaman (AC spiders, lava grubs, harpies-not uncategorized harpies in fractals though) Spider queen, engineer rocket turret) wall of reflection will work on any/all projectiles. Feedback, temporal curtain and iwarden will not. Any thing with a trajectory and it just laughs it’s way on through.
Wardens feedback: It may reflected random projectiles at random times. 50% chance. 70 second internal cool down.
Yup. I wanna like my mesmer again..but stuff like this makes it harder and harder for me to find the love.
The screen shot says it all. I have left traits screen up to show wardens feedback is traited. The animation clearly shows temporal curtain and the harpy using rapid shot. My health bar shows health has gone down and cripple effect has been applied. The question is, how and why?
September 9th is coming, or is it going to be another year before this is addressed?
It is there as a matter of public record. Mesmer got buffed and nerfed based off those buffs before the patch was even released. The clone death nerfs were stated as balancing to the scepter AA…so what about people who don’t use the scepter at all?..Instead of diversifying, they have reduced. If you want to condi build, scepter is a must..because you have already been nerfed to compensate for scepter AA. Without scepter AA you’ve just been nerfed.
Slow clap. There wasn’t even a grace period of 14 days post patch just to see how it panned out.
please also remember that might stacking professions cannot do anything if you take away their boons.
the hard counter is there, just that people refuse to use them, and then they come here and cry about it.
You point out a valid retort. However boon corrutpion/ripping is worthless when some profession builds habitually restack over and over up to 7 boons. Ele’s and engineers tend to be on the fore front of this, but are not exclusive. Would you agree if a profession is running 7 boons and through sheer genius such arcane thievery and boon removal on shatter and using mesmer sword with a clone I remove all 7 boons that this is a worth while practice when 5 boons will be present again in 6 seconds and all 7 are back no longer than 12 seconds later? As e legit continuation of what you have said that boon removal is a key counter here, how much of a counter is it when all that investment to remove is nullified every 20 seconds?
that’s why i was saying again and again, improve boon removal options!
the current boon removal options are very …
lacking and inadequate !!!boons removal options should be as easy applied as might stacking, if not better!
i suggested for a new condition to make boons expire faster but people does not seem to want to accept that.
Sorry if I missed important info in your first post. I agree. After playing out a necromancer in PvP I was massively underwhelmed what boon corruption did and how little it swayed a 1 vs 1 situations and 2 vs 2 situations.
nerf hammer damage in pvp by 50%.
honestly it should NEVER be a viable zerker weapon, but currently i can spam out 3-4k’s with the thing.
it is a CC weapon, all of its traits are in a defensive tree,
it should not be a viable option for damage.
using hammer should be a choice to sacrifice damage to gain amazing CC.
Hammer is a low damage, CC weapon. That is what it is. However so is celestial ele and engi..the issue is when these low damage sustain builds receive 15+ stacks of might and run runes that increases damage while under the effects of might and are also chalking up bloodlust stacks. The situation has been mentioned, but not addressed in next patch. So look forward to another 6+ months of it.
No, it is not worth it.
I have 120% magic find. With a birthday booster and omnoberry foods I lifted my MF% to 260%. The cap for MF% is 300%, so I was not too far off. For the 24 hours of game play I spend half in PvP/25% in open world and living sotry and 25% in dungeons and fractals.
In PvP I got 2 x rares and 5 t6 mats.
In living world I got 2 low tier rares worth 6-9 silver each
In fractals/dungeons I got the worst drops I have ever received.
However after resetting zones multiple times and making sure no diminishing returns were in effect after my boosters had expired I still received on par the same drops.
Ergo, it is better to sell items you don’t want than salvage them for luck essences.
MFis a good idea, but not very implemented because even if you boost by 20% or 50% or even a 100%..or all three, it only results in you receiving 1 or 2 extra items. If these rares are what you’re truly after, then world boss training will guarantee you a rare and MF remains the wild card over the assured way of farming.
Enjoy your ascalon catacomb tokens. Lazy copy/paste revamp was answered by even more lazy play style. The camera angles ain’t great for melee. It is the same troll we’ve seen before. It gave the wrong rewards. It just didn’t work. Ergo..no one took it seriously apart from the OP. Just 2 cents worth.
please also remember that might stacking professions cannot do anything if you take away their boons.
the hard counter is there, just that people refuse to use them, and then they come here and cry about it.
You point out a valid retort. However boon corrutpion/ripping is worthless when some profession builds habitually restack over and over up to 7 boons. Ele’s and engineers tend to be on the fore front of this, but are not exclusive. Would you agree if a profession is running 7 boons and through sheer genius such arcane thievery and boon removal on shatter and using mesmer sword with a clone I remove all 7 boons that this is a worth while practice when 5 boons will be present again in 6 seconds and all 7 are back no longer than 12 seconds later? As e legit continuation of what you have said that boon removal is a key counter here, how much of a counter is it when all that investment to remove is nullified every 20 seconds?
No. Adding torment to the scepter auto attack would create a spec that requires little to no skill that can easily 1v1 any class. Even managing your cooldowns would not be necessary since a majority of you damage would be on your autoattack, even clones can be spawned using the autoattack. My fear is the new pvp Mesmer meta will be a build with a bunch of passive defensive abilities and will require no skill.
I feel that the scepter does need a buff however and to make the scepter less overpowered the torment should only be added to the final strike in the autoattack chain.
“..creates build of little skill…”
This build already exists. It is called;
1) spirit ranger
2) celestial scepter/dagger ele
3) any warrior build, take your pick
4)HGH nade engi
5)black smoke d/p thief
6)beast master ranger
7)minionmancer
8) terrormancer
9) turret engineer
Oscar Wilde once said, “It is not selfish to live how you want to live. It is only selfish to expect others to live how you want them to live.” If you want to play mantra’s, or shatter, no one is stopping you. Just because something good happen to scepter, it takes nothing away from anything else. The world doesn’t need another person who complains about what is on TV, but refuses to change the channel. Everybody seems to viewing this buff as Pvp specific and also complain conditions are weak in PvE. PvP in this game is small, PvE has the far greater population. This is the condition style PvE players have been demanding. They got it. Majority rules. It still doesn’t stop any other mesmer playing how they want in any other game mode.
I understand the concern, but in the other spvp thread most agree scepter will be a hotjoin hero, and there is not much wrong with that. Many play hotjoin just for this reason..to run builds that wouldn’t have a home in soloQ top 500 or tpvp. This is why you don’t see mesmer PU in top 500 soloQ or tpvp..you don’t see it in PvE and you don’t see it in tournaments. It has already been stated by the mesmer community who play at this level that they won’t being using it. It doesn’t deliver as much kittenter build..yet, the same people who admit they won’t being using it, or expecting to see it in any thing mildly ranked are the same people saying it should go. It seems the idea of casuals in PvE and hotjoin shouldn’t be considered, even though no expects to it appear anywhere but unrated matches. I agree it is a heavy handed buff, but at the end of the day all I see it amounting to is getting ppl to rage quit hotjoin. Outside of that it can’t take camps quickly in WvW, it moves slowly and a simple sigil of generosity reverses everything every 9 seconds because torment is all it stacks so there is little chance it won’t reverse it. With ranger and guardian signet alone clearing every 10 seconds, zerker stance, cleansing longbow fields, reflects etc there is enough counter to it despite it being a heavy handed buff. It could have been done better, but it is not the end of the world as many are saying. I expect to see more ppl move to ranger after the patch than to mesmer scepter.
There seems to be a lot of controversy about the scepter AA buff, so I thought I’d make this thread for people to focus the discussion on just that (and by “discussion”, I mean talk about why it’s a terrible idea).
I like the other buffs, but scepter AA didn’t need torment. I have no idea what Anet’s vision is, but condi mesmer didn’t need a buff. I worry that this does even more to proliferate the “condi meta” and threatens the health of the game.
Please discuss as the OP why you feel scepter was fine and exactly why condition mesmer didn’t need a buff. To simple state without evidence that scepter is fine and condition builds are in a good is not enough evidence to consider those 2 statements truthful and in no need of questioning.
I discuss my reasoning in the posts below. I never said scepter was fine; in fact, I even stated I think scepter could use a buff, but just not like this.
The tl;dr is that torment scepter AA and scepter clones make it so you can permanently torment your opponent, who has no counterplay options and no chance of cleansing it. This buffs condi mesmers, who didn’t need a buff.
Scepter as weapon is slow. It;s block function creating torment is useful, but only works on a melee strike and proc’s nothing on range.
This is wrong. If you block a ranged attack, you still apply torment, even if you’re not in melee range.
To further put scepter at a disadvantage is the fact that traits which aid scepter at master level are found outside of the condition damage tree. Not to mention the condition damage tree is tied to power damage, further complicated by torment on shatter is a grandmaster trait found in a completely different tree again. In order to obtain stream lined synergy one would have to invest 30-20-10-20-30 in order to be able to produce clones, maximise scepter, make use of clone death and cause conditions on shatter. As you can see that build structure is not possible, so already you can create something functional, but not ideal or superior. This opposed to something like warrior where precision and condition damage and in the same tree as duel weilding which applies bleed,torment and cripple faster , and deep cuts which extends bleed time by 50% and increases crit chance on sword which proc’s sigils. Already you can see there is professions that have it much more streamlined.
I’m not talking about traits, per se. However, PU, debilitating dissipation, and deceptive evasion are all you need to make an insanely OP build with scepter. The other traits are almost irrelevant.
The current state of conditions builds were much the same as engineer. Debil dissa proc’ed random conditions on clone destruction which made condition application easy, but you had no control over which conditions would be applied. The same issue applies to winds of chaos. The application was random and would often stack vulnerability which aided your cause in no way. Mesmer needed more direct and assured ways of playing out a condition build.
Random proc’s aren’t that unreliable. Condi mesmers still have very reliable sources of condi’s from sharper images, scepter 2, scepter 3, torch 4, torch 5, etc. The new scepter buff just pushes it over the top
^This is more of the crux of the concern..how will perplexity affect a torment mesmer in WvW. I feel in spvp scepter will become a hotjoin hero for a short time, but won’’t see the light of day in any higher competitive teams.
The concern isn’t about perplexity at all. Even a condi mesmer not running perplexity would still be very OP with this scepter buff. That said, it would be even worse when combined with all of the already common and strong specs that exist for condi mesmer. Shatter is probably still better for teamplay in pvp, but this scepter buff doesn’t help the condi meta plaguing the roaming scene.
You’re correct. It proc’s sometimes on a range attack, but I can confirm whole heartly..not always. It will proc on PvE foes ground AoE like the butcher in HoTW..but not on engi nades. It will proc on arah bows barrage, but not on ranger barrage..my point is, it seem slective in what range attacks will proc and which ones it will not.
Gratz man. After the wardrobe change i found a number of precursor skins..not the same, but pleasant all the same. Don’t rush and obsess over trying to quickly make into a legendary..just plot away it. You’ll get the most fun doing it that way and avoid what a number of us came to know all too well..“legendary burnout.” It takes time, so just chip away at it.
You guys arn’t getting it. Stating that it’s on a level with necro AA simply doesn’t cut it.
Necro is the easiest class to manage, with blinds, soft AND hard CC in the game. They also dont make copies of themselves on dodge; also spitting out torment.
Sadly, much like the warrior changes around this time last year, the only people aware of this fully are the class mains. And they won’t ask for nerfs until they get bored of faceroll.
Ok..so clones on dodge. That requires 20 into dueling. Maybe 20 again into Inspiration for malicious sorcery and 30 into illusions for maimed..all this investment and the one tree you’ve put nothing into is condition duration. It still only makes a solid build, not a superior build. The real question is, how will perplexity runes affect it in WvW? Again, all this concern is mostly aimed at a build that will thrive in hotjoin, but won’t see the light of day anywhere else. Hotjoin at the end of the day is the place where this won’t look out of place among the dagger/pistol thieve’s, turretineer’s, terrormancers and celestial ele’s where no one invests in team support and only aspires to zerging most of the time. In that forum, it is harmless. I enjoy hotjoin matches for purely that point. I can make builds I like and I don’t have to give a toss about team support/role..I just get to play and see big numbers and pretty particles everywhere.
Thief, Mesmer and Necro are made to be crazy good duelling professions. Its build into their class mechanics. You either nerf them into oblivion or they will be superior to other professions in 1v1.
Thief stealth/dodge spam will always give them an advantage in 1v1 but sucks in teamfights.
Mesmer clone spam will always give them an advantage in 1v1 but sucks in teamfights.
Necro death shroud will always give them an advantage in 1v1 but sucks in teamfights.
As much as I hate to fight PU Mesmers, P/D Thieves and Terrormancers myself they are all useless if you play as a team. I dont say its not easy mode but in the end its a team game and those specs cant compete in that mode.
^..hotjoin hero favourites is all they will ever be.
It’s a tricky one. Mesmer does have a conditon build via PU or anything making full use of sharper images, but so many of the conditions were RnG. Whether it be debil disaa on clone death, or winds of chaos prodcuing one of three potential conditions there was no controlled manner for a mesmer to create and stack exact conditions. They cewratinly had some control with torch, but torch also creates time frames of where nodes can’t be held or captured. If i had to peg why PU never made it to the top it would be because of 50/50 ability to capture or defend, it’s slow moving and even as a condition stacker it still took longer than desirable time frames from them to stomp anyone. It was only in soloQ and hotjoin that one would ever see PU. The changes to scepter (even though I would have enjoyed seeing confusion restored to some of it’s former glory) at least gave the mesmer the ability to stack conditions in a way that they are assured of. Looking at the changes and the mesmer layout you can begin to see the stat allocation can make for some working builds, but not superior builds. If people want to invest heavily into condition damage there is no usable and sound choices there. If they step down to dueling for DE and the ability to produce scepter clones on dodge that will cost 20, and again there is only s0-so traits in that line precision/crit line that benefit a condition build. If they step down again and invest 10 for debil dissipation that produces vuln, cripple, bleed RnG. One condi is not needed, one is useful but not deadly, the last is the one you kinda want. For an extra 10 they can also take chaotic dampening for the staff condition RnG. So far they have little condition removal outside of mantra’s, so they could possibly wanna go 10 into the next tree down for menders purity, or maybe even 20 for malicious sorcery for scepter..then again they may not. Lastly they if place 30 for maimed, again they could take elasticity as a support trait..but so far its looking;
0 0r 30 depending on much condition dmg you wanna invest in
20
0 or 20
0 or 10 or 20
30
As it becomes apparent, you can make good builds. Solid builds, but not superior builds. trade off’s are needed. That is why I don’t think this potential change is anything like the dhuumfire patch. The necro at the time was not forced into making hard trade off’s like mesmer is.
I think in the end, if all goes as stated..no one will play it in PvE. No one will play it in higher level Tpvp. You’ll see it played for better or worse in soloQ and it will mostly be a hotjoin favourite until, ppl fully see what ranger are now capable of. Even among the turret overkill engineers, celestial ele’s and off guards in hotjoin that people use to just have fun and see big numbers and have a sense of viable with lesser experience,..then in that meta it will fit right in and that’s all good..but anything higher soloQ top 500, I just don’t see it becoming the next big thing.
No matter the result, it will still remain a build that is preferred second to shatters.
(edited by CntrlAltDefeat.1465)
There is great video’s on youtube labelled mesmer guide. Someone took the time to run through each weapon, what it can do, what combo fields it can create. The only problem is that the video’s are older, so some skills have changed slightly. However they do give you the basics.
The next good idea is to learn your key binds. mesmer is greatly assisted with hotkeys rather than a clicker style.
A lot of mesmer gameplay video’s are still viable today. Mesmer damage as a whole has been reduced, but essentially they still play out the same. This kinda showcases mesmer needed something new, which they haven’t really received..but let’s not split hairs.
Take each build archetype and stick to it until you can reasonably beat most people, or fair very well and only loose by small amounts. Play shatter, mantra’s and PU in turn. After you understand the more well known builds, you can start inventing your own.
Torment by itself is already a fairly strong condition. But consider it outside a vacuum for a second.
Easily applicable torment along side easy bleed applications, confusion from scepter #3, perplexity runes, etc. It makes it pretty overbearing and highly pressuring. Plus you have veggie pizza which gives you 40% more condition duration or points into domination and sigils that add condi duration. This adds quite a bit of time to torment.
There is no counterplay to it, besides running away. If you kill the clones, you just inflict bleeds on yourself, if you leave the clones alone they are inflicting bleeds/torment. Plus it isn’t like clone generation is a problem for mesmer.
I never understood how running away is counterplay to a Mesmer. If a warrior, thief or an elementalist is running away from you in WvW, you are preventing them from capping objectives. You are preventing them from engaging you because they know they can’t beat you. Which means if you are defending things like supply camps they can’t cap it from you. Two people might not even be able to cap it. If you are in a small group, you have other people to catch up to stragglers that are running away while you are putting loads of condi pressure on somebody.
I would much rather see buffs to other aspects of the mesmer, such as making them more GvG viable and increase build diversity (i.e, all shatter mesmers more or less go the same build). Possibly better damage on greatsword when less than 1,200 range and better sword auto-attack. Even a rework of the scepter #3 and a more reliable scepter #2. I do agree the auto needed a rework, but I am not sure if this is it.
^This is more of the crux of the concern..how will perplexity affect a torment mesmer in WvW. I feel in spvp scepter will become a hotjoin hero for a short time, but won’’t see the light of day in any higher competitive teams.
There seems to be a lot of controversy about the scepter AA buff, so I thought I’d make this thread for people to focus the discussion on just that (and by “discussion”, I mean talk about why it’s a terrible idea).
I like the other buffs, but scepter AA didn’t need torment. I have no idea what Anet’s vision is, but condi mesmer didn’t need a buff. I worry that this does even more to proliferate the “condi meta” and threatens the health of the game.
Please discuss as the OP why you feel scepter was fine and exactly why condition mesmer didn’t need a buff. To simple state without evidence that scepter is fine and condition builds are in a good is not enough evidence to consider those 2 statements truthful and in no need of questioning.
Scepter as weapon is slow. It;s block function creating torment is useful, but only works on a melee strike and proc’s nothing on range. The confusion element of it is weak after the confusion nerf a year ago. It did need improving. It had no upfront damage, and it condition applications were situational and/or underwhelming. To further put scepter at a disadvantage is the fact that traits which aid scepter at master level are found outside of the condition damage tree. Not to mention the condition damage tree is tied to power damage, further complicated by torment on shatter is a grandmaster trait found in a completely different tree again. In order to obtain stream lined synergy one would have to invest 30-20-10-20-30 in order to be able to produce clones, maximise scepter, make use of clone death and cause conditions on shatter. As you can see that build structure is not possible, so already you can create something functional, but not ideal or superior. This opposed to something like warrior where precision and condition damage and in the same tree as duel weilding which applies bleed,torment and cripple faster , and deep cuts which extends bleed time by 50% and increases crit chance on sword which proc’s sigils. Already you can see there is professions that have it much more streamlined.
The current state of conditions builds were much the same as engineer. Debil dissa proc’ed random conditions on clone destruction which made condition application easy, but you had no control over which conditions would be applied. The same issue applies to winds of chaos. The application was random and would often stack vulnerability which aided your cause in no way. Mesmer needed more direct and assured ways of playing out a condition build.
Guardian auto attack on all weapons. Every 5th or traited 3rd attack causes burning. With traiting and sigils it was possib;e to apply 30 seconds of burning (The highest damaging condition in game) simply using auto attack. It has also been confirmed by dev’s guardian scepter had the highest auto attack damage. Lookie at that..highest damage and able to apl,y 30 seconds of burn continously in it’s complete rotation.
mesmer you have to destroy the clone, thats all..guard you had to destroy them. You have the torment out of proportion.What? They’re not even comparable. Every 5th attack procs a 1 second burn, or every 3 attacks with a 20 point investment into virtue tree. Popping the virtue allows for a longer burn but then disables the auto attack burning. Even if Guardians could apply 30 seconds of burning, they have nothing to cover it with and a single condition clear would remove it.
Mesmer auto attack torment is an insane idea, especially if the clones are going to be applying it. Wasting time killing clones while the mesmer is free to attack you is a stupid idea, not even mentioning that clones can apply conditions on death. PU is already incredibly strong with it’s survivability and condition pressure over time, allowing them to auto stack torment on top of that is just plain stupid.
Anet plz, nothing in this game should be applying torment through an auto attack, especially clones that are made every time you dodge roll.
“wasting time killing clones.”- You mean the clones that die in one hit and upon spawn move towards their target?
“Condition pressure over time” You mean warrior sword that applies bleed and cripple and even on a condition build can still strike for 3-4K when final thrust prereq’s are met?
“Not comparable” I one second burn every 3rd/5th attack that can be stacked up to 30 seconds with virtues and traits. The torment is 2 seconds on strike, 4 seconds on third strike when the clone spawns. With double evade and DE that means you can spawn 3 clones in 3 seconds, each doing 2 seconds of torment. The third strike won’t spawn a clone, because you already have 3 present if none have been destroyed. That will equate out in real terms of 8 seconds of torment. Even at a high condition score 8 × 78= 624 dmg over time if they are not moving or approximately 1,056 over time if they are moving constantly. It sounds better on paper and in theory crafting than what it will actually be in real time. As many people have stated, it will benefit PU. Currently PU is the hotjoin hero build of mesmer and is not used in any higher competitive form. It is too slow moving for roaming and not capable of taking supply stations in WvW in a reasonable time. I think it would be better to see how it all plays out first before condemning it. Pound for pound, shatter mesmers still produce a lot more DPS.
Mai trin.
One powerful attack that can be dodged, but not blocked.
One powerful attack that can be blocked, but not dodged.
Necromancer has no blocks.
N’ uf said.
Gw1 mesmer is anet most original work. Until mesmer, there was nothing like mesmer. A profession that works by making a mess of it’s opponents skills.
Gw2 is in it’s own way unique. I haven’t seen or played anything quite like the gw2 mesmer in other games, yet the dynamic of playing via disrupting, interferring and ultimately ruining someone else’s play feels kinda gone. It is now essentially a DPS profession just like all the rest. The gw1 mesmer could defeat without actually hitting with any damage once. The more you got interrupted or ignored hexes, the more you defeated yourself.
Don’t thank them for something as mindless as giving you an extremely strong condition that you can essentially have a 100% uptime on with multiple stacks. And before any of you say L2P or cleanse it, it’s on your AA, cleanses won’t work. A mesmer can just stealth with clones active while their target gets torment stacked on them. Conditions on AA need to go, let alone strong conditions. The other changes were fine, but the torment was just stupid.
You have no vision but a dark one.
So let’s say they have stacked 25 torment..let’s just say…
1)Oh, it can be cleansed in foul swoop..there is no variety of conditions here. Successful condition stackers have poison. burning, bleeding..not just one condition.
2) Clones are easily destroyed..they are not turrets which can’t be crit or condi hit.
3) generosity will cause major problems to a profession that has limited removal. Considering torment will be the major condition by far, which one do you think generosity will affect every 9 seconds?..think about it.
4)To invest in imbued torment GM trait, and take DE that leaves you with 20 points to place in power to get condi damage, and no points to invest Master tier scepter skill. As a condition build, it is wildly so spread you can’t invest in it perfectly without losing something entirely valuable.
Your too doom and gloom for a build you haven’t even seen in affect yet.
Torment is the worst damaging condition to put on AA. It is the single hardest damaging condition to clear. It’s part of the reason why people complain over impale. The other being it re-applies itself. They are basically giving mesmers an impale skill.
Guardian auto attack on all weapons. Every 5th or traited 3rd attack causes burning. With traiting and sigils it was possib;e to apply 30 seconds of burning (The highest damaging condition in game) simply using auto attack. It has also been confirmed by dev’s guardian scepter had the highest auto attack damage. Lookie at that..highest damage and able to apl,y 30 seconds of burn continously in it’s complete rotation.
mesmer you have to destroy the clone, thats all..guard you had to destroy them. You have the torment out of proportion.
I think you underestimate the buff to scepter. It’s going to apply torment on AAs. The AAs will generate clones that will stack even more torment. Right now, I need to disengage if I get 5 stacks and one or two other conditions put on me. Can you imagine what your condi bar will look like post patch if that mesmer change goes through?
It’s not just the scepter buff, it’s this buff plus illusionary elasticity to staff, makes condi builds crazy strong, and not in a good way as it will all be about being passive and letting the clones do the work.
IE was always meant to work on staff clones. It is not a buff, the trait simply now does what it said it always did. It just 2 years for it to be corrected. Much the same has the previous change to ileap. If the clone is dead, you can’t swap with it now..which was how it was always intended.
“PU mesmer stealth too much.” So can ranger, engineer, thief. What’s the point here? Mesmer is not the only profession that can stealth and also obtain boons from stealthing.
“The clone spam will be cancerous.” All Mesmer phantasms/clones target the correct player if the player targets the real mesmer. With additionals of turrets seeking, ranger pets being more effective and revealed increases All AI will accurately work through other AI.
“Torment is too strong for an auto attack.” Torment only does it’s max damage when the target is moving. The torment will last for 2 second duration, potentially 4 if you sucessively hit with 3rd attack, even more if you sucessively block a melee attack, even more if you successive;y shatter with the specific grand master traits. Bleed is a far more reliable condition and burning is a far damaging condition. Ranger currently can easily stack 12 bleeds and poison with autoattack and use of traiting and pets. Off Guards can currently apply 30 seconds of burning even though they are not condition spec’s. Thief obtains double strike and poison+ bleed with sigils and will now hit 2 targets on AA. The point is, a lot of professions can deliver respectable power and condition stacks from AA with traiting or sigils. Memser scepter is now one of those weapons. After the glamour nerfs scepter became a s0-so weapon. It now a condition weapon that is only effective at some what stacking one condition in small numbers consistently.
I think this hype of PU warranted if you’re paranoid and groundless if you’re not. The fix to illusionary elasticity will have far greater impact and the reworked iwarden wasn’t even demonstrated.
I think it all still needs to be seen before QQ’ed.
Great news on the ILeap and making Power Lock an AOE is super sweet. But I just don’t understand some of these changes…
Like changes to the scepter.. yes, that’s all this game needs is more condition’s on AA. But no change to Confusing Images incredibly long wind up.
or the change to Triumphant Distortion – Also applies 1 second distortion on Phantasms
Hello!!! Triumphant Distortion triggers on the death of your enemy. What happens to your phantasm’s when your enemy dies???? How is this an improvement? Why would I take it now if I didn’t take it before?
And did you notice that the new Mimic had a 30 second CD.. meanwhile no mention to change to Arcane Thievery’s 45 sec cooldown and unreliability. Why not just improve AT???
I think if you watch again and read the tooltip, rather than listen to host it says, “Phantasms get 1 second distortion on cast, player get one second distortion on target death.” Don’t quote me, but I’m pretty sure that is what was in the tool tip.
Good skillz.
After returning to mesmer after 12 months, it’s kinda interesting looking back over their traits I naturally settled on 4-4-6-0-0 for general play and much the same utilities. Interesting so many people gravitate to this layout, although I see many play it, do it, score it better than I do. Hopefully the skill bar episode this week will give some new things to mix it up and take mesmer in a fresh direction.
So far the changes they are making have either been for the better, or to transform an average profession into a much meaner version of itself. Bearing this history in mind it could look good for mesmer.
You have sited damage example on golems. Golems have set toughness values that are usually exceeded by players who wish to run a toughness build. So the damage values you are siting are not always the same values you will actually see in game. The golems are also conveniently situated on flat ground and don’t move.
Actual facts about greatsword are:
Skill 5-Rush- has a range of 1200 unites. If you use rush at 1000 units or greater it will always overshoot and miss. That means it’s actual usable range is 600-800 units. Any evade movement performed by the target once engaged causes the skill to still target the area the target last was, and then rubber band to where the target currently is, often resulting in missing again, even though it has entirely remained in range.
skill 4-blade trail- Exhibits behavior by flight of the crow. This often results that if your target moves to higher ground on an incline that it interprets the incline as a wall and blade trail will begin it’s return path prematurely even though the target is still in range.
Skill 3-whirlwind attack- In a game mode designed around nodes, WWA range movement is equal to the node size. This results in the player being taken in and out of capturing the node. As decap engineers have shown, the ability to defend or assault while remaining within the cap node area will result in you capturing it. Players that move in and out will eventually lose it. The skill itself strikes 4 times, however that is not to say it will strike a single target 4 times. At it’s maximum range WWA often carries a 50% miss rate, and on occasion when used at point blank range will still miss. Think of this like dropping an apple onto a helicopter blades while moving. It will probably get hit, but it is not guaranteed. The only time the skill definitely will strike 3, perhaps all 4 times is if you pin a target up against a solid object,..even then it is not guaranteed.
skill 2-100 blades- Unarguably one of the longest channelled skills paired with the most obvious animation. With reduction of damage delivered with the starting channel and only the final strike of the channel remaining unnerfed this is also arguably one of the most PvP unfriendly skills. It will soon be a case of only fools using it. It is long, self rooting, very obvious and doesn’t deliver much damage if you can’t ensure the full 3 second duration. Much the same as Barrage is being changed because the channel and self root versus the damage delivered and conditions suffered were considered underwhelming, 100B needed this consideration. This is not to say it is useless, but when a stun and/or knockdown and quickness are needed to deliver a skill that will most likely only strike for 7isk at best, well that’s a lot of investment for a non show stopping result. Arcing slice was always underwhelming and was deserved of a change. The increase damage it will soon do only justifies that with adrenaline nerfs it needed more. It does not justify that great sword as a whole needed overall damage reduction.
Great sword on paper looks good, but in reality with its long channels, self roots, obvious animations, inconsistent strike rate place it firmly as a weapon choice for those who like it, but not one for those who wish to Pvp at any sort of higher level. If you look at all the video’s of great sword in PvP, you can see it being used well, but often the best results come from opponent bad play (I.E Having no vigor and being within range of 100B and not being able to dodge now or by not evading bull’s charge or failing to use a stun break when being set up for a big hit.) Greats word just lacks a clean, fluid style. If it is not over shooting past your target, firing you out of the node or experiencing bugs..or simply just overtly telling the world “Don’t come near while this highly visible, ultra long channel is happening.” It needed real finesse changes, not adjustment to numbers and how it’s burst skill worked.