Guild Wars 2

Flumek.9043:

Please dont hide under “its new and unknown” carpet and list your ideas to improve balance

Complains about balance, then claims it’s the other guy’s responsibility to provide ideas to improve balance, after dismissing the possibility of a particular argument out of hand because it doesn’t serve.

I’ve seen this thread before.

How about this: you don’t get to just say something is imbalanced, you have to actually discuss how it is imbalanced (listing things it can do doesn’t help), specifically where the imbalance occurs, and how your proposed change would fix that imbalance while still leaving a strong role for the class.

I’ll wait.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

abc.5790:

Wake up people. Like Vapour said, Condi Reapers have 3 powerful counters. That in itself proves that the build is balanced.

Instead of learning how to counter, all I see are people throwing tantrums demanding to get builds nerfed.

It’s pretty disgusting to witness how lazy people are at attempting to figure things out on their own.

Using resistance spam or diamond skin has nothing to do with “learning how to counter”. It is just counterbuilding and limited to very few classes. If the only aviable counter is picking the right class and traits, otherwise you can’t do anything, it actually means, there is no real counterplay to condi reaper.

There is counter*play*. Cleanse and kite when the Necro is in Reaper Shroud. Keep slows up and simply dodge away from the Shroud #2, or just make sure to dodge Shroud #5. When the Necro isn’t in Shroud, apply burst/damage/focus/etc. Dodge the LF generating abilities, if you feel inclined to keep the Necro out of Shroud, or dodge the highest damage/condi applying abilities if you want to mitigate the damage potential.

And counterbuilding is part of the game. You expect every class spec to be balanced against every class spec in 1v1? Is that what you think this game is about? If you don’t expect that, then it’s necessarily the case that certain builds will be better against certain other builds. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. If you do expect that, then I think you’ve been misinformed.

Yasha.5963:

abc.5790:

Wake up people. Like Vapour said, Condi Reapers have 3 powerful counters. That in itself proves that the build is balanced.

Instead of learning how to counter, all I see are people throwing tantrums demanding to get builds nerfed.

It’s pretty disgusting to witness how lazy people are at attempting to figure things out on their own.

IKR? Even if you don’t have HoT there are three powerful counters, namely 3vs1, 4vs1, and 5vs1. You guys just need to wake up and figure this simple stuff out.

All you’re doing, Yasha, is making the argument against Reaper look like it’s coming from a group of inflammatory people who aren’t trying to form a logical argument.

What is it that people think a Reaper should feasibly be able to do?

If you evade/kite the Necro while in Reaper Shroud, then really apply your pressure while the Necro is out of Shroud, you’ll find the advantage. Use cleanses when the Necro hits Shroud as well and just dodge the Executioner’s Scythe. Evade that, and the spin, and if you aren’t getting auto’d you’re taking basically no damage whatsoever.

No amount of additional chill will make it tick any harder than a single application, and if Chill wasn’t doing meaningful damage, Condi Reaper would probably be ejected from the meta again, unless team cleanse is truly lacking these days. Without it, you’re talking periods of burst Poison, and generally slow Bleed application. Maybe some Burning application from Shroud #1, but it seems people have learned that manning up against a Reaper Shrouded Necro isn’t always the best idea.

I really think the perception of how much damage Chill is doing is off from the reality. The only explanations I’ve tried to see about it doing too much damage have fallen incredibly short of convincing me it’s too much. It seems most people think they should survive forever against Condis, and Chill’s unique single-stack pressure means now they don’t.

I’m not really sure what the correct move is. I’d personally like to see a huge wipe of many of the runes/sigils I think exacerbate build issues, but I doubt that’s going to happen.

Nova Stiker.8396:

zencow.3651:

It irks me that they’ve never learnt their lesson about spammy passive plays that are dumb to watch; they did acknowledge that the presence of S/D thieves and their petting zoo ranger/full signet warriors approach from a year and half ago was the wrong way to go; yet flash forward to the present, we have a Tempest/Herald/Reaper rock-paper-scissors meta that relies on Diamond Skin and passive Herald boons

The AoE spam in team fights is still bad with the heavy amounts of AoE CC; it’s at least better than the EarthShaker hambow spams from before but different professions, same mistakes.

And of course the feel that they are spending HoT money marketing the broken crap instead of fixing things (I know that funding development doesn’t really work that way but still).

ArenaNet will proudly disagree:
http://fortune.com/2015/11/24/areanet-investing-in-esports/?xid=soc_socialflow_twitter_FORTUNE

I’ve already made tons of threads regarding why Guild Wars 2 cannot be an Esport unless certain things are fixed and changed.

If ArenaNet actually took a step back and said, “We won’t be an Esport until it’s ready” will help them become an Esport. ArenaNet stop being tryhards and start taking Esports seriously.

That article is actually really interesting, as I also think GW2 has a lot of work to do before it becomes any kind of big e-sport to invest in.

Also, I can’t help but read your last comment as “stop being tryhards and start trying hard.” To claim they aren’t trying is just disingenuous. I think they are just being misled by someone in a position of power that someone doesn’t deserve. Which is unfortunate.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

ANet stated that each profession should be able to perform each role.

I think, if anything, this is their mistake. They are trying too hard to appease everyone, but if they want spvp balance, i think they should limit classes to very specific roles. Unfortunately this is an MMO,so attachment is so strong that they almost can’t. It is a doomed genre for competitive balance.

foste.3098:

By your logic the next expansion should bring in super elite specializations that will make the elite specializations obsolete and so on for every new expansion.

This whole mess could have been avoided if they called thees things something like ‘focused specializations or ’narrow specializations’ or ‘many stupid people thing this is suppose to always be slotted in every build specialization’ ,anything other than elite.

I didn’t say anything about what ANet should or shouldn’t do. But I’m also used to needing an expansion to play an MMO with others when an expansion releases.

Also, “elite” is the term they’ve used consistently to mean “thing you get only 1 of in a build”. You get 1 Elite in your skill bar. You get 1 Elite trait line in your build. In GW1, you could only equip 1 Elite at a time.

“Elite” made sense to use, and I think it’s fine. It also seems many people are reporting that the style an Elite brings to certain classes isn’t always desired. It seems to mainly be desired for classes that either had a gaping hole in their design (such as Necromancer), or classes that had the meta shift on them and are attempting to shift with it (Guardian, I believe, falls into this category. Could be wrong.).

We’ll see what the future holds. I just think this is a useless topic at this point. People seem to want Elite spec nerfs, but I don’t know that I’ve, once, seen a suggestion for how to nerf them. Just robble robble robble.

Xillllix.3485:

What will you ask to be nerfed after Diamond skin?

I’m not sure how many want Diamond Skin nerfed, necessarily. It seems most want it re-designed so there’s something you can do instead of /sit if you happened to be Condi-based and a DS Ele happens across your path. It’s useless in the face of Power, and it’s useless in the sense that teamfights allow your team to bump the Ele down below 90%, then not even the Ele can do anything besides try to heal in order to time Condi mitigation.

Would it not be better for Eles to see this trait redesigned? I still don’t think it should necessarily be a priority to re-design it, but I think it’s a very toxic direction for game design.

Hakuryuu.8634:

And in a very subtle way, it’s a way of saying kitten you to the braindead condi reapers, so I see nothing wrong with this. Move on and l2p.

I love seeing the “braindead” argument about other classes/specs. Ironic how you tell people to l2p against a passive immunity to an entire type of damage/utility, whereas you don’t seem to feel you should l2p against a class actively managing condition application on a target.

But I forget. Everything that beats us is classified (hilariously, I might add) as “braindead”, and everything we do in the game is the highest form of skill.

Morwath.9817:

@Cogbyrn.7283
Well, if you remove trait line (make it not avalible for elites) not used by elite spec, you can buff it in future without worrying that you will overbuff elite spec, which makes balancing much easier ;-)

However this way we would end up with two Elite specs (core elite and HoT elite).

My biggest concern is that, at the end of this, the two elite specs would have to be perfectly balanced for whatever meta develops from it. That means 2 viable specs, at a minimum, across all 9 classes. If that is not the result, then you still have people feeling pigeonholed into a particular elite spec, and nothing has really changed (assuming the goal of this exercise is to make it so people don’t feel stylistically pigeonholed at a competitive level).

Morwath.9817:

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Jourdelune: Sorry, but you purchased an MMO with a structured PvP aspect. You see the effect of them having to try to balance around all game modes all the time.

Just because you want to be blind to the fact that you’re playing an MMO because you put your PvP up on a pedestal, doesn’t mean you aren’t still playing an MMO like the rest of us.

If you want a MOBA game, there are plenty to choose from. GW2 isn’t one.

I disagree with you here, GW1 had its some of MMO and MOBA aspects separated a bit (e.g. some skills was working differently and went different balance routes for PvE and sPvP).

…and I believe GW1 was much better balanced, no idea why then try to balance both completly different modes together in GW2 =/

Maybe that’s how GW1 went about its business, but with GW2, ANet appears to want to keep the separation between game modes as limited as possible. I’m not saying GW2 couldn’t create a game mode separation and try to balance each differently, I’m just saying it’s very apparent that they are trying very hard to not do that.

I tried to not focus so hard no the example, but that one hit home in particular. I’ll try again to express what I think, with the shortness:

If ANet decided to utilize everything they have learned balancing the game so far to tailor the Elite spec for each class in such a way that it maneuvered professions into particular roles for competitive play, I think it’s totally fine that each class would only have 1 viable competitive build. Of course, they still have work to do with Thief/Warrior it seems like, but I don’t disagree with that approach if that’s what they are trying to do.

And I already feel like I’m making a meaningful sacrifice by losing a trait line I’m used to having in order to gain the benefits (and style) of being a Reaper. For every profession, if you removed a trait line from being available for the elite spec that people already include with their elite spec, there is going to be rage. If you remove a trait line they didn’t care about taking, then nothing changes for them and you don’t incorporate a meaningful decision anyway without potentially massive overhaul.

In essence, it seems like you are asking ANet to turn one of the original trait lines into an Elite trait line, and that would require more work than I think it would be worth. That’s just what I think, anyway.

@Jourdelune: Sorry, but you purchased an MMO with a structured PvP aspect. You see the effect of them having to try to balance around all game modes all the time.

Just because you want to be blind to the fact that you’re playing an MMO because you put your PvP up on a pedestal, doesn’t mean you aren’t still playing an MMO like the rest of us.

If you want a MOBA game, there are plenty to choose from. GW2 isn’t one.

Morwath.9817:

Cogbyrn.7283:

My thought is that the “core” profession doesn’t need to be balanced with the “elite” profession, personally. It’s all just the profession. If you don’t have access to all of the content because you didn’t purchase the expansion, then it’s like any other MMO: you are behind.

At least you can still play with those who own the expansion, unlike basically every other MMO.

No, no, you don’t get the point. I have nowhere said that people should do fine without HoT…

Its completly different matter, for example, many Rangers dislike Druid (read: they dislike support/bunker aspect of it) and they would like to be competitive without its mechanics , I’ve same feeling about Necro<->Reaper, where I’m just forced to use RS over DS, just because RS is superior to DS as is Reaper superior to anything else than Spite/SoulReaping, even if I heavily dislike Reaper and its “melee” shroud.

Sorry for missing the point initially, I’m just ultra tired of seeing core vs. elite threads, so I misinterpreted your intent. That’s my bad.

However, I also think diversity in competitive balance in an MMO is a pipe dream. Everyone is going to want their preferred spec/style to be the competitive/meta style. Some rangers really want to be competitive with non-Druid, while others are probably thrilled that they are competitive with bunker/support Druid.

If you heavily dislike Reaper and its melee shroud, don’t use it, especially if aesthetic/stylistic fun is your top priority. If winning is your top priority, then using Reaper shouldn’t feel bad, since it is the sPvP competitive spec at the moment.

Then again, I’m severe in my opinion on sPvP balance. I think each profession should have 1 spec that they shine competitively with, and if they have it, they should be glad they have something. Honestly, if they really want to take this game to a competitive level, you should get pre-built templates that they can very specifically balance the game around. There are so many variables that, core or elite, something is going to come out on top. If it’s elite, people say they have to buy the expansion to compete. If it’s core, people will say that they bought the expansion for nothing and they want their money back.

And that’s all from a competitive perspective only. In my experience you can make a lot of things work for you out in the “real world” of the game against your average opponent. Once you cross the “playing to win” line, I think they should just try to squeak each class into a particular role. As it stands, they’ve almost done that it seems, Warrior being the current Sad Panda with Thief lined up close behind Warrior.

As for the idea in your OP, I personally hate it, because Shroud-based builds that utilize Soul Reaping have always been core to my style. I think it’s specifically a bad idea for Necro because Dhuumfire is specifically not very good on Death Shroud, while it shines a bit brighter on Reaper Shroud.

More generally, though I am appreciative of meaningful decisions, I am already replacing a trait line that I would otherwise really enjoy to have in order to get Reaper. Sure, it’s an upgrade, but I’m definitely sacrificing to get that upgrade, either missing out on the survivability I like from DM, the might-stacking/damage from Spite, or the boon corruption/utility in Curses (I like the Curses line, even if it could use work). The choice still feels meaningful to me without removing a trait line completely from being available to an Elite spec, so I don’t really agree with that approach.

My thought is that the “core” profession doesn’t need to be balanced with the “elite” profession, personally. It’s all just the profession. If you don’t have access to all of the content because you didn’t purchase the expansion, then it’s like any other MMO: you are behind.

At least you can still play with those who own the expansion, unlike basically every other MMO.

I hope that other MMOs have forum threads that say “Level 90 makes level 80 redundant” when an expansion releases.

Kicker.8203:

Schurge.5194:

Kicker.8203:

Dakarius.3284:

There was 1 thief running vanilla sa/da/tr

And lost 0-2. In eu there wasnt a single player without elite spec.

One would think they would leave a few vanilla builds meta so free players dont feel like its pay to win. Seems thats not the case. Every elite spec is better in all aspects. Right balancing would make you sometimes not to pick the elite traitline.

Free players are playing an extended trial… Who cares what they think? HoT is the game now – if you don’t own it, tough nuts! Expansions are not Pay-2-Win.

2 of my friends and other acquaintances bought gw2 before the free trial and then they quit.(thats why they bought it in the first place they thought they can just jump in and out of the game because it is a 1-time purchase). I don’t think its fair to them that it’s this PTW.(they are interested about the game but they wouldn’t buy the expac straight away, my 2 friends at least)

Welcome to MMOs, where you purchase expansions to stay relevant. The fact that you can even play with people who have the expansion and not be hopelessly outleveled is revolutionary.

Supreme.3164:

The rest of the world side

Sunshine.5014:
This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.
Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.
The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

The necro side

Cogbyrn.7283
If I heavily spec to counter power, I can survive for a long time against power. If I heavily spec to counter condis, I can survive a long time against condis. If I spec to sort of mitigate power, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation. If I spec to sort of cleanse condis, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation/cleansing.
Why should condis not be able to exploit weakness in dealing with condis?

The “why you hate condis?” quote

The hate against condis often seems irrationally strong, and I honestly believe it really kills discussions around balance.

Why this thread still going? I should be obvious by now why condis are hated, how it is even possible to compare power builds to condi build in terms of risk/reward ratio?

Without descending in further discussion about skills, traits and all…here and now I will write down the main differences between power builds and condition builds , this should make it very easy to understand why condi builds are despised and frowned upon.

1)
Is there a single baseline stat that increase your defenses against power build?
-Yes, we have toughness

Is there one against condi builds?
-No, there isn’t

2)
Is there an easy to access boon [emphasis on the word :easy] that counter power?
-Yes, we have protection

Is there one against condi builds?
-No, there isn’t

3)
How many stats, power builds need to work?
3

How many for condi builds?
1

4)
Why warriors have berseker’s stance?
-Because it’s the only way for them to avoid being perma crippled/snared from range, something which would nullify them completely

So here were are , an easy to follow example on why condi builds are over the top in this game, you need an immunity to avoid being perma snared to death so that your mele spec has a chance at fighting back

The low risk and high reward of condi builds, it’s what tick people off.

-Too much for too little investment
-Ability to apply pressure without fear of low return *( no need to worry about weakness, protection, retaliation or toughness)
-Little positioning required, bulk of damage can be applied safely from distance

Not much else to say, no need to go much deeper

Yes, I am a Necro. Yes, I have access to transfers(/cleanses, though a transfer has more risk than a cleanse) more often, it seems, than other classes. Yes, even in a power build, I often use condis to help control a fight.

No, I don’t ever stick with a condi build. No, I don’t sacrifice condi transfers for other utilities/weapon sets that would provide more DPS, because I understand the usefulness of being able to drop condis. Even as a Warrior, years back, I would run Signet of Stamina because a full condi drop was incredibly useful (I also ran Lyssa runes back when they converted all condis instead of just 5, so I had two full condi wipes with Lyssa and Stam before Zerker Stance was changed to ignore condis). No, I don’t just ignore the idea of condis when I make my build, then wonder why condi pressure hurts so badly.

How can “little positioning” be required, when often, spacing is paramount for freely applying continual pressure? Sure, you can apply pressure when someone is up in your face, but odds are at that point you’re taking more damage quicker than you’re dishing out. The spacing and positioning helps you establish dominance in the fight, and if you don’t have it, you can be put in a bad place quickly.

I played a Hammer/Greatsword Warrior before Zerker Stance was a condi immunity, and I kept on top of people without much issue. You recognize your weakness and try to fill it with build or gameplay. Since you can almost always try to dodge power application, the slow but steady condition style was something I always recognized as threatening, and always always always built more heavily against than power mitigation from stats/traits.

Even now, as a Power Necro, I take Shrouded Removal, Corrupter’s Fervor, Relentless Pursuit, and Melandru Runes in sPvP when I roll extra tanky. I also always take Plague Signet and one weapon set that has an ability to transfer (OH Dagger or Staff, typically OH Dagger these days). If I see an enemy comp that appears heavy on potential condis (multiple Necros especially), I’ll roll Suffer! as well.

No, I’m not winning tournaments. But guess what? Neither are 95+% of the people complaining about imbalance on these forums. I recognize strengths and attempt to counter them, while others seem to run their Meta Battle build and then complain when something exploits their weakness.

I used to hate condis. I thought they were way too strong, and I went out of my way to try to prove it by making full-condi builds on build editors and analyzing how much damage they did per application. Do you know what I found? I found that I didn’t actually hate condis. I just didn’t fully recognize how abilities applied them.

In short, I’d love to see Diamond Skin be reworked, because I think it represents a toxic direction in the game’s design. If it doesn’t get reworked, oh well, I’ll learn to deal with it.

Vydahr.4285:

Cogbyrn.7283:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Vydahr.4285:

Stand The Wall.6987:

yes its really easy, reroll.

Better idea. Build tanky with Soldier ammy, Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper, take Blighter’s Boon and full shouts. Play aggressive. Granted, you can’t do that much initially, but once you get some life force… Start playing like a rabid honey badger

Did that, took trooper runes and full shouts. Not a single condition stayed on me. It was hilarious when I got loaded up with condis and just used suffer.

I’m going to be trying this soon as well. Kind of excited.

As you can see in my build (signature), I use Scrapper runes myself, but I just switched to using Axe/Focus in PvE and may try it in PvP now. If that is what I do, I’ll also try Trooper/Soldier Runes. Either way, a Soldier ammy Reaper (regardless of rune set) is an absolute beast

What I’ve found with Soldier runes is that condis often cripple me more than power pressure, so I try to help mitigate condis with my rune-ing. I need to start exploring though just to try different variations, just to mix things up.

The aftercast on evades, especially those that also do damage, provides a window for a well-timed counter. Without it, you just seamlessly chain evades together, and it’s arguably worse.

Sunshine.5014:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Sunshine.5014:

This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.

Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.

The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

If I heavily spec to counter power, I can survive for a long time against power. If I heavily spec to counter condis, I can survive a long time against condis. If I spec to sort of mitigate power, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation. If I spec to sort of cleanse condis, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation/cleansing.

Why should condis not be able to exploit weakness in dealing with condis?

Great, now with your own quote in bold. So an Ele heavily spec’ed to counter condi; it loses to power spec. Why do you guys complain then? Wanna take your cute quote back? Lol. Any competent player knows how useless DS is against power users. Play condi? Too bad, read your own quote and try to spin a flip flop.

Have I said Diamond Skin is OP? Or have I said I think the design is garbage? I think Diamond Skin is designed terribly, and should be looked at. I don’t think it’s OP. If I ever said it was OP, then I was on a tear, and I was wrong.

Just because something isn’t OP doesn’t mean it’s well designed.

Crinn.7864:

Melanion.4892:

Sure, every class has access to condi cleanse, but does that make it something they’re taking? No.

And? If you ain’t going to spec into condi cleanse then you deserve to die to condis.

And you still haven’t covered the fact that condi builds are penalized by everything a power build is penalized by (blocked/evaded abilities don’t apply condi) in addition to being penalized by cleanses, transfers, and duration reduction traits. Not to mention condi builds typically having much longer ramp time than power builds.

Condi builds are underpowered in this meta, and will continue to be so with or without the existence of Diamond Skin.

I can’t help but wonder this as well. If you leave yourself open to be pressured by condis, then you die to condis, how is it the fault of the condis? If you die to being CC’d, people tell you to bring stunbreaks. If you die to burst, people tell you to dodge, or watch animations, etc. etc.

If you die to condis, people grab their pitchforks and take to the streets with you in opposition of condis. Nevermind that you can cleanse condis before they tick their full damage. Nevermind that an ally can cleanse condis for you. Nevermind that you can dodge primary condi stacks to mitigate the “burst” similarly. Nevermind that you can block/evade condi application. Nevermind that a boon exists that mitigates condis entirely for its duration, as opposed to just reducing their effect by 33% (for example).

The hate against condis often seems irrationally strong, and I honestly believe it really kills discussions around balance.

Sunshine.5014:

This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.

Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.

The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

If I heavily spec to counter power, I can survive for a long time against power. If I heavily spec to counter condis, I can survive a long time against condis. If I spec to sort of mitigate power, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation. If I spec to sort of cleanse condis, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation/cleansing.

Why should condis not be able to exploit weakness in dealing with condis?

TheLastNobody.8319:

Vydahr.4285:

Stand The Wall.6987:

yes its really easy, reroll.

Better idea. Build tanky with Soldier ammy, Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper, take Blighter’s Boon and full shouts. Play aggressive. Granted, you can’t do that much initially, but once you get some life force… Start playing like a rabid honey badger

Did that, took trooper runes and full shouts. Not a single condition stayed on me. It was hilarious when I got loaded up with condis and just used suffer.

I’m going to be trying this soon as well. Kind of excited.

Crinn.7864:

Supreme.3164:

As somebody said before in this thread : diamond skin is a hard counter to hard counter

The real problem is not even the condi spam which is manageable with enough practice, the issue is chill which affect the ele main profession mechanic attunement swap

The entire class is designed around attunement dancing even if this is less prevalent with tempest, ofc I understand the design point of view of having something affecting ele in particular, something like chill that completely shut down the whole profession; this was fine pre-HoT because it was not possible to maintain perma chill in any way.

But now you have an entire elite spec based around perma chill, this is the main reason why eles run diamond skin, it’s not because of the condi spam really but because of this devastating condition that can now be spammed with impunity; this is a hard counter at 100%

Now that reaper exist they should remove this fallacy of chill affecting attunement recharge, after that …trust me no ele would cry if you’d remove diamond skin the day after

Then give them a trait that specifically reduces the effectiveness of chill. Unilaterally making eles a hardcounter to all condi builds just because of the existence of reaper is absurd.

Besides “hardcounter to the hardcounter” is absurd logic. All that does is change the class that is getting screwed over.

You mean a trait like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll? Or maybe you mean https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Geomancer%27s_Training?

Here’s where I start to have problems: classes often have tools to deal with things, but they “can’t take them” because it would make whatever else they want to do weaker. They leave themselves open to a particular weakness, then complain about the weakness like they shouldn’t have it, or that what exploits their weakness should be nerfed.

Sure, Chilled sounds like an awful condition for Ele to deal with. But if it’s that awful, and if Chill Necros are running rampant, why are accommodations not being made to help shore up that weakness? Because you have to run a meta build to be in the meta? That just feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

And on that note, is Diamond Skin really proving sufficient to help counter this weakness? I don’t necessarily think it is a bad thing for teamplay to be a factor in balance, so if it’s a matter of Condi Necros needing team support to tackle Eles, maybe that’s fine. Alternatively, perhaps if a Condi Necro sees an Ele on the other team, they have to switch to Viper Amulet to help burn through that 10%, leaving themselves vulnerable with less survivability. That could be fine too.

It’s very possible that Condi Necros just need to adapt to Diamond Skin and deal with it. I just think Diamond Skin could be designed better (to the Ele’s benefit, even), and even though I play a Power Necro, I tend to side with condis in the perpetual “I hate condis” discussions. People often don’t want to go to any trouble at all to counter condis, so if they are ever strong, there’s an uproar to nerf them until they disappear.

nearlight.3064:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nova Stiker.8396:

ozzy.8059:

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

Well I’ve posted a lot about this many places, so I feel as though I can adequately discuss the nuances of this meta shift.

Firstly, many new elite specs don’t come with AoE cleansing in their skills/traits in a high amount, and many base class pvp builds have to give up some component of their AoE condition cleansing to become that elite spec (such as giving up arcane/cleansing water to take tempest). Things like tempest generally don’t pack as nearly as much AoE cleanse as they did as a base ele unless they kitten their stats and utility with soldier runes over something like durability or radiance. Druid has poor ally cleanse with only verdant etching seeds, scrapper usually only brings heal turret and maybe some minor help with e-gun and elixir tosses. The new support builds have shifted more towards massive AoE healing and (tempest/druid) and boon spam (tempest/rev)

Secondly, many of the base class builds that were famous teamfight supports for many pvp teams can’t handle the power creep anymore. Bunker guardian’s health is too low to rez people without minstrels, so their shoutbuilds are dead, and the revamped settler’s shoutbow build can be bursted down way too quickly by revenants and dragonhunters. Cele D/D ele fire/water/arcane can’t handle dragonhunter as well as tempest can. DPS chronomancer can’t afford to take inspiration, so thats why the bunker builds are becoming more popular (though helseth’s isn’t optimized for better ally cleanse).

Thirdly, lots of new powerful builds are very weak to conditions, especially revenant, druid, scrapper, and tempest once diamond skin is broken. This has allowed condi builds, primarily reaper, and less so with condi rev, the ability to cement a firm seat in the current meta, since they have enough spammable condi pressure to actually kill the new cele bruiser/healer builds, because none of them have the invinceable network of massive passive AoE condi cleanse to protect them anymore for the reasons I just discussed.

So in conclusion, Diamond Skin is balanced (though a QoL rework could be interesting) because without it tempest would be instantly deleted by reapers. Viper condi revs can break it no problem, and it breaks pretty easily in a teamfight.

I appreciate the elaboration. I think it is interesting that the meta shifted in such a way that it opened the door for condition builds to pressure the new hotness. The aoe cleanse builds get killed by builds that get killed by condis, which have issues with the aoe cleanse builds. From a team play and team comp perspective, that sounds like the sort of cyclical balance that creates room for meaningful variations in comp. At least it is in that direction, tweaks aside.

It isn’t that i don’t want Eles to be able to counter condis, but it seems like it is a weird/bad trait no matter how you slice it. If teams can pop the ele below 90%, then it is a garbage trait. If a condi player isn’t built to out DPS the sustain in power damage, it is nigh invincible. I can’t help but think, even if it feels balanced because there are no options for Eles without it, they could just be given a better option that allows them some play between 90 and 0, without making it so other condi builds have no play between 100 and 90.

If the heal capitalizes on pulsing AoE fields, maybe don’t spam them willy nilly, especially when the Rev is nearing a heal point.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nova Stiker.8396:

ozzy.8059:

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

It was called shoutbow.

So a shout-based Warrior was carrying the team-fight condi cleansing? But now a shout-based Warrior can’t adequately fill that role?

It sounds like you’re building your comp with a vulnerability to that sort of condi pressure, so now there’s a place for that sort of condi pressure. Does that make it imbalanced?

EDIT – Do people think their class/team should have no vulnerabilities? Is that what the game has conditioned players to think?

Nova Stiker.8396:

ozzy.8059:

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

Anchoku.8142:

It would also create a more pvp-like experience so PvE players would not develop bad habits.

This is the attitude that makes absolutely no sense to me. There is absolutely no reason to try to make PvE feel like PvP. PvPers always complain when there is “too much PvE” in their PvP. What makes you think PvEers want PvP in their PvE?

You can develop engaging and interesting mechanics without having a boss have a table of abilities to dodge. If a boss is designed to dodge 5 abilities, then you would use whichever abilities do the least DPS to bait the dodges, then use the highest DPS abilities. Or, you would just use your abilities on cooldown and the dodging would change absolutely nothing. In either case, I don’t see how that makes the fight more interesting.

If you want a PvP-like experience, just go PvP. I really don’t see how PvE needs it.

As far as fight complexity, I’m sure that’ll develop over time. No one should be expecting some revolutionary design on ANet’s first attempt at GW2 raids. ANet needs to find their design stride and gather data on the fights they’ve release thus far first, in my opinion.

To be fair, personal damage meters would still end up with people asking others what their DPS was, whether it is the raid leader to get a sense of how everyone performed, or a snotty group member who wants to compare. If you don’t provide, they’ll probably still be exclusionary. Also, the ability to analyze someone else of the same class to see the distribution of damage across their skills, crit rates, etc., you can really help yourself improve with tips gleaned from the data alone.

However, if that’s the start we get, I’d be more than happy with it.

I am going to also lodge a formal request that you send me all of your in-game possessions. By doing so, you’ll really prove your convictions, leaving the game with no intention of returning.

I look forward to hearing from you.

EDIT – Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

BlackBeard.2873:

Cogbyrn.7283:

So what do we need to fix the problem, then?

Fewer defensive abilities? Fewer abilities that double as offensive and defensive both? Reduced damage on abilities? Fewer escapes? More specialized abilities and fewer “do everything you need” abilities?

Pretty much.

Here is the BEST place to start:
- Fewer instant-cast abilities that aren’t defensive
- Hard mitigation (blocks, immunities, evades) on long CD’s
- Better balance between single-target damage vs. aoe, and melee vs. range. It seems like everything just cleaves nowadays or else it basically isn’t useful. This is why teamfights are such a cluster-crap.

Overall damage needs to decrease, and so does healing. A heal of 2k once meant something, nowadays it is only useful if you can do it every 5s.

I agree with that sentiment, by the way. However, I don’t hold out a lot of hope, since it would require a lot of rebalancing work across every class, as well as across runes/sigils and traits.

ANet dug themselves into a “too much of everything” grave, and crawling out would require an overhaul.

I personally think the game could use damage meters. Even if rendered down to the possibility of exclusion, I think excluding based on empirical evidence (someone not really doing much DPS) is light years “better” than excluding players because of the class they play, based on absolutely nothing in-game.

I was thinking Dhuumfire’s DPS, based on how much damage you get out of it in the time it takes to cast the ability, was better as well initially. However, I don’t have the aftercast data on hand to know what the true rotation lengths are between RS #1 and Scepter #1, and with Scepter traited for 50% more condi duration, it does appear to provide more damage per cycle than Dhuumfire.

That was just a quick look at a build site and comparing some numbers, so it may be wrong in some way. I’m also not sure if you can theoretically gear for more burn duration to take Dhuumfire back over the edge, as I didn’t go too far with it.

Anchoku.8142:

I am struggling with how similar the raid content is with traditional PvE. The same old issues that plagued PvE and made Necromancer less than optimal are still there.

First, I do not understand why there have to be time limits and other gates that force separations between professions with different damage output. I want a developer to explain this. A challenging encounter should not boil down to bringing max dps professions and this is how the raid is shaking out.

Second, the raid bosses still do not calculate aggro the way I think they should. The highest damage or heals should claim aggro. There is no reason to bunker for aggro controller so max dps is the only build that matters. Aside from needing a few high condition damage builds, some CC, and a little boon stripping, the meta is still berserker/sinister/boons, leading back to the first point. The raid does not support professions designed around non-desirable ‘roles’ when the most important requirement is dps. Artificially claiming aggro with a toughness build does not help the team.

Third, raid bosses follow a set script for what they do and when they do it. Once a player memorizes the script, the raid becomes less interesting. I would rather see raid bosses have ten skills like players and enough intelligence to block, counter, dodge, heal, and target skills toward specific professions. This “wandering around using three skills” design is garbage.

Raid bosses should be difficult to play against and not be a simple damage sponge on a timer.

The more I play the new PvE areas, the more disappointed I am in how that play adheres to the old ‘just flail at it until it dies’ design.

PvE is always going to be scripted. If you have a boss that acts “intelligently” with blocks/dodges/etc., then the fight will render down into gaming the boss to force blocks/dodges/etc., after which you apply the actual DPS. It will still be scripted. PvE is a scripted challenge that you overcome as a group. Once they create learning AI, maybe they’ll be able to create something you seem to want.

Also, you can’t say “threat should go to the highest DPS/healing”, then turn around and complain about there not being a reason to bunker. If there was a reason to bunker, the bunker wouldn’t even be able to take aggro in your scenario, since DPS would just be stripping it off constantly. They’d have to fully develop the concept of “threat”, add in abilities that generate more threat, and then you’re back at a trinity. A toughness-based aggro system should work just fine.

Further, these are the first 3 raid bosses ANet has created. What exactly were your expectations? Tuning is always a moving target when it comes to raid encounters. If ANet wants to move away from a “zerker meta”, they’ll have to see how the zerker meta operates in a raid situation, why it still works, and analyze how they might be able to design an encounter that punishes it in some way. It’s going to take time.

And if they are simple sponges on a timer, why was the 3rd boss only killed for the first time two days ago? It took people 3-4 days to figure out a couple sponges?

EDIT – @Skoigoth: I agree with you. At this point it’s about completion, it seems, and if you can complete with a Reaper, then that’s good in my book.

So what do we need to fix the problem, then?

Fewer defensive abilities? Fewer abilities that double as offensive and defensive both? Reduced damage on abilities? Fewer escapes? More specialized abilities and fewer “do everything you need” abilities?

Skoigoth.9238:

The group that did the World first Sabetha kill had a Valk/Zerker Reaper on their team, so we can’t be in that bad of a spot right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnGbi-SA-b4

In before “they would have been better off if he played <insert other class here>”.

Salamander.2504:

Great idea, Cogbyrn and Meow. I was fishing around to see what I could find and I stumbled upon this post of mine, dated to Oct. 28th: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Is-this-DH-Nerf-Enough-to-Calm-the-Tears/first. My post links a screenshot, which shows my win/loss ratio as of Oct. 28th.

Here is the data from Oct. 28th: https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/208816/dh1.jpg

On Oct. 28th, I had 1787 unranked matches and a 51.32% win-rate. Currently, I have 1992 unranked matches and a 50.80% win-rate. If you do the math, that means between Oct. 28th and Nov. 22nd (a 25 day period), my win-rate (over 205 games) was 46.27%. Because I was exclusively queing ranked up until HoT, that means my win-rate has dropped by 9% since Oct. 28th.

Ah, so you were queuing Ranked in your pre-hot experience at kitten win-rate, and your 205+ games since HoT has a 46.27% win rate. So in short, instead of 11 games won out of every 20, you’re winning approximately 9.

What’s really interesting is that your perception is of a much, much more frustrating experience, when it’s just a couple extra losses that you aren’t used to every 20 matches (on average, streaks aside). Given 205 games since HoT, you are also running a 52.5% win-rate only including your Ranked matches pre-HoT.

Of course, you can try to keep applying filters and segments to the data in order to make it look bad, but even a 46.27% win rate isn’t that far below 50%. Considering randomness in unranked, I would imagine it could be within a reasonable deviation from “par”. I could be wrong, but I still don’t think it’s anything to ask for an artificially reduced MMR for.

EDIT – This is also the second time I’ve been censored because of the number 5. Once was “as” followed by 5, this is “a” followed by 55.

Thanks, swear filter. You’re the real MVP.

meow one twenty.4376:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Without the data, I have nothing to go by, besides everything in your OP being snarky, including the part where you say you aren’t being snarky. I only have what is in the screenshot, which is not statistically abnormal. Just a bummer.

I’m also used to seeing streaks like this, as I have a friend who has played thousands of DOTA 2 matches, and he would always comment on his losing streaks when they were especially terrible.

With the data provided you have the ability to actually determine how many games have been lost since HoT by comparing the combined current average to the previous average in contrast with matches played. I’m far too lazy to do the math, but you’ll find that the streaks required to reduce 55% win rate to ~51% at 2700 matches is extremely discouraging.

The OP mentions kitten Ranked win-rate, which is what is in the screen shot (since there hasn’t been a ranked season yet). Was Unranked/Total at 55% pre-HoT as well? If not, where was it at?

Without the data, I have nothing to go by, besides everything in your OP being snarky, including the part where you say you aren’t being snarky. I only have what is in the screenshot, which is not statistically abnormal. Just a bummer.

I’m also used to seeing streaks like this, as I have a friend who has played thousands of DOTA 2 matches, and he would always comment on his losing streaks when they were especially terrible.

The point is that you losing X games in a row is likely to happen if you have a 50% chance of winning a match based on matchmaking, especially with a larger sample space. It has nothing to do with your skill. It’s actually probable that you’ll hit streaks like that.

So the point is, you don’t actually know if you are worse than the game thinks. You just had a bad day. Human beings are really terrible at intuiting probabilities.

So at what point does a player convert from N to V? Is it a natural progression from N5 to V3?

What determines a Veteran player at the beginning of a system? # of matches? # of wins?

Salamander.2504:

Cogbyrn.7283:

All I got from that Screenshot is that over the course of roughly 2000 unranked matches, you are at about a 50% win rate.

Could it possibly get more balanced than that?

99% of those matches were pre-HoT.

Also, watch this:

All I got from that Screenshot is that over the course of roughly 2000 unranked matches, you are at about a 50% win rate.

Could it possibly get more balanced than that?

Aldath.1275:

So, what people is trying to say with the latest coments is: Reaper/Necro IS still a waste of time and resources, does not fit any place inside the meta, does not manage to be useful, and it doesn’t matters how fun it is to play because in the end it brings nothing to the table when it comes to DPS or utility and you’ll be locked inside pug groups or kicked out of content?

…There goes my week and XP boosters for Necro…

You drew a whole lot of conclusions out of some impressions from various individuals. If you want to play Necro, play Necro and make it work. Be a tank, or push DPS to its absolute limit, pioneering the charge towards higher theoreticals.

If you want to bandwagon the flavor of the week/month/year/whatever, then use your XP boosters on Condi Engi or Power Rev, and hope balance patches don’t change your fates. I’d personally recommend making something you enjoy work over worrying about what is “best” right this moment.

I would agree with you Lopez, if there was any in-game data whatsoever to support claims of where classes are on these bosses. All I see are videos summarized by what people saw as the highest ticks for various builds, or spreadsheets that only really start the conversation, instead of finishing it.

If ANet wants to tweak balance around PvE DPS performance, they need to provide in-game damage meters. Otherwise, everyone will just throw numbers around with no empirical evidence, which is only vaguely useful.

And if ANet’s goal is to balance fights such that you don’t need a fully optimal DPS set-up to complete the content, and each class can be part of a raid without keeping that raid from completing the content, then they may have no interest in tweaking DPS values by 1-2k in either direction.

Plus, based on the guy running Lich form for bleed ticks, I’m not sold that Condi Reaper is being pushed to its limit yet.

Photinous.4628:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Photinous.4628:

Being an esport means $$$ for the creators of the game. That’s all it is. The more people that watch it, the more people will want to buy and play it. Unless a large number of people watch the tournaments, then this game will never be an esport game. Just watch the evolution of overwatch once it releases. It will show you how a real game should become esport and may eventually kill the “esports” scene in this game.

The game on the horizon is always going to “kill” the current game that is out. It hardly ever happens.

Overwatch is probably going to be no more of an e-sport than TF2, also.

First of all, I said it will kill the gw2 esports scene, and not the game. Second of all, Overwatch has been heavily designed and marketed as an esports game by blizzard and if you look at blizzard’s history they have never failed being #1 in every category of gaming they have ever entered.

Except MOBAs, where HotS serves a casual niche in the fact of LoL and DOTA 2. They might have tournaments, but it’s a casual game.

I haven’t seen Overwatch’s marketing, but I know people in the beta (unfortunately that doesn’t include me yet). It sounds like a casual MOBA/FPS hybrid. Do you think it’ll break into the MOBA LoL/DOTA 2 scene, or overcome the CS:GO FPS scene? Or do you think the niche it carves out will be large enough to be “#1”?

I still think it’ll be a TF2 style game. Emphasis on skins (hats), fast-paced and fun gameplay, and not a real e-sports contender.

And please, show me where Overwatch is marketed as e-sports. I’m not sure i see it yet.

GW2 has tournaments, ranked seasonal ladders (as much as their design/implementation is called into question), and paid events. If nothing else, they need to work on their spectate-ability over all else. I just think it’s too late in the game to address those issues.

The past is always rose-colored.

Always.

Schurge.5194:

The meta shifts every few days… I like it. Every day there is something new and interesting to fight… today I saw a LB / S+Sh Berserker carry an entire team in Khylo. Not used to Shoutbow actually doing damage was cool.

If this post is serious, I’m intrigued.

Ramoth.9064:

Arenanet wanted to ‘go esports’ with every intention that it’d be the next DotA and LoL.

You know that for a fact? Where/when did they say it? I missed that part.