Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
We had a place at Raids as the tank with the old BB, but now we have nothing
Are you certain? If I recall, raids aren’t out yet so even saying we had a place in raids with old BB is unsubstantiated.
great sustain without giving up much damage, just what a tank needs.
Actually it is really simple. Next time try to figure it out by yourself before posting.
And you’re absolutely certain that it would have resulted in a tanking spot?
And now, you’re absolutely certain that Necros will not have any raid spot, because of the loss of BB?
Where did this certainty come from, exactly?
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
The core gameplay of WvW involves enemy players manipulating the environment to challenge you and get in your way. And your response must be to try and manipulate the environment back in your favor. Literally every objective in WvW works this way. Enemy players take keeps and towers, which erect walls and gates that get in your way. If they hold those keeps and towers for a while, the walls and gates get stronger and become even more of a hindrance. Players erect siege weaponry to deny access to areas, or to take down the gates and walls so the environment becomes more favorable to them. And then there are secondary objectives (initial the orb mechanic, then the ruins/bloodlust). This was all present in the core release of WvW.
That has got nothing to do with what s/he was talking about.
I saw the connection, personally. If you’re taking the angle that Selwynn was specifically talking about the terrain, then even in Alpine BL, terrain was utilized when possible to provide an advantage. Standing on the roof of the entrance to SW camp, using stairs and walls in towers/keeps for strategize advantage, firing down from walls to harass those who are sieging your objective, gathering behind buildings then running a surprise push back at an enemy force when they get close.
GvGs take place in open fields to ensure a fair environment for two groups of players. But WvW has always involved utilizing everything, even terrain, to maximum effect. The Desert BL takes that to a bit of an extreme, but at the end of the day all it really represents is more toys. More chokepoints, more ledges, more environmental defenses.
It’s fine if you want to just run around on an open field, with sporadic buildings that have walls. That’s a personal preference. I personally prefer taking stock of my surroundings when faced with a fight, so I like an environment that is more dynamic.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
It also rankles me how you’re basically using this time where thief clearly DOES need some love as an opportunity to stroke your peen.
Great, skillful vid man, but seriously uncool.
Really? Maybe the class needs some love, but for the 99% of people who aren’t going against top tier players, watching someone succeed in various scenarios should be uplifting and maybe cause them to go back and work on their skill instead of default to asking for buffs.
I’m not saying Thief doesn’t need any fixes, but why can’t someone say “Hey look, I’m finding success with this and it’s a lot of fun!”? I didn’t get “peen-stroking” out of the video/post at all.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
We had a place at Raids as the tank with the old BB, but now we have nothing
Are you certain? If I recall, raids aren’t out yet so even saying we had a place in raids with old BB is unsubstantiated.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
I love how he still managed to down notorious elites with the apparently kitten S/D. Nice video, man.
Were we watching the same video? It was just highlights and 90% were Thieves and Mesmers. The one DH he kills already blew his cooldowns on the other guy, the one Revenant was wearing base armor and keyboard turning. Only elite he killed was Scrapper at the very end of the video.
Do you think his(her?) style of play wouldn’t work then against an organized opponent/team? Are there too many windows for the Thief to be bursted, or do you think his damage/pressure isn’t high enough despite his high mobility and the ability to pressure on a point without being restricted to it (with shadowsteps)?
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
I know it’s unranked and all, but this is the sort of Thief play I was wondering about. Thank you for the vid!
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
WvW Invitational Statement from John Corpening, game director for World vs. World
in WvW
Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283
@Jamais: I had a thing written up, and it was eaten by the logout monster. Why don’t I ever learn to at least copy post text.
Here’s the short version:
- I usually wouldn’t be that nitpicky, but with all of the egregious displays of drama on the forums, I think it pays extra to really stick closely to facts. It was probably too nitpicky though, and I didn’t mean to derail from your other point.
- I would always love more communication with devs. Always. But that sort of communication requires an agreed plan internally at ANet, as if they try to just do on-the-fly discourse, odds are it’ll somehow backfire on them. They should direct the feedback so they get the most benefit, and that plan might take a while to finalize/implement, especially with review processes on post content etc. They might also be whipping up a news blog. Either way, if something was going to happen, I wouldn’t be surprised if it took another week or two at least.
- Players also need to realize that even if they are banded together by anger, alleviating one person’s anger might inflame another’s. Right now the anger feels very generalized, and I bet everyone has their own unique way they’d like to see the problem solved. There’s no silver bullet that’s going to please everyone, and expectation management is, in my opinion, really important.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Do you think Carrion Terror is the current Necro meta build, or are you talking about some past time? I would be really surprised if that were the case.
I’ve been talking about past time (celestial meta), however I believe Carrion Chillomancer is new meta.
Ok, I figured. You are probably right with Carrion Chillmancer though right now, based on what I’ve read in ye olde Necro forums. I think there might actually be a few other builds that serve as “viable” for a large portion of PvP, though, including power-based tanky Reapers and most likely a cele signet build.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
WvW Invitational Statement from John Corpening, game director for World vs. World
in WvW
Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283
I thought HoT released on October 23rd. Seeing as it is November 5th, that’s 13 days ago. Are you counting the beta events? If you’re exaggerating dates and times for effect, I have a difficult time thinking you aren’t doing the same with whatever else you say.
Incredible! Wow! That you really think extreme pedantry makes a good point, and not just sound like an attempt to troll. Anyway it’s funny that you say that when just yesterday you made this post:
Everyone always assumes they have everything perfect after a week, or even just a few days, and it never ceases to amaze me.
I was making a general observation on how quickly players reach conclusions and think they achieve optimal play. It only takes a week, or even just a few days, for players to start calling for balance changes. Sometimes it’s only one day. Look at the forums for living proof of that. I wasn’t commenting on how long HoT has been released, but if you can find “HoT” in that post, feel free to include it. I’ll admit if I’m wrong. Even if I’m wrong, that doesn’t change what I said.
This isn’t even my style of trolling, anyway. I was just stating that my mind stops and says “Wait, HoT hasn’t been out for several weeks, what is he talking about?”, then the rest of your post reads under the idea that you’re exaggerating for effect. I don’t want to feel that because I think you’re one of few who form good coherent thoughts that serve as negative feedback without all the angry spittle. Others would do well to follow your example, so I guess I really want your example to stick to facts, especially since your ideas are often sound.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
(edited by Cogbyrn.7283)
I think I’ve seen this fairly frequently, and it misses in the sense that nothing pops up. No numbers, no “Miss”, no “Block”. It just doesn’t land on anything.
However, the spinning phase does hardly any damage, if memory serves. Basically all of the damage is loaded into the blind hit at the end of the spin, so I don’t think you’re actually missing out on much at all. It’s just a bit irritating.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
In GW1 you had 30-40 viable builds per PvP gamemode, in GW2 it’s roughly the same. There are fewer meta builds because the party size is smaller so people must work from a more limited pool of possible team comps, but that’s it.
In GW2 you get usualy 1 truly viable build per profession once meta establishes*…
Also your example with Paragon is pretty bad, it was used often as secondary profession…Cele Meta for example:
Engi : Cele Rifle
Ele: Cele Ele
Warrior: Cele Shoutbow
Necro: Carrion Terror
Guardian: Hammer/SF Zerker
Thief: S/D Zerker, D/P Zerker
Mesmer: Shatter Zerker
Ranger: nothing (!)
Do you think Carrion Terror is the current Necro meta build, or are you talking about some past time? I would be really surprised if that were the case.
And I wish I could follow this conversation because I always find it interesting to hear about GW1, but literally everyone remembers that game differently. Since it’s almost all anecdotal and dripping with nostalgia, it’s very difficult for me to believe anyone as to how the game actually was.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Did the DH in that vid set those traps up behind the Engi, anticipating a dodge roll back into them? If so, that’s a good read. Sure, the damage might be too high, but isn’t that also all of that DH’s utilities?
Just seems like a burst cheese build. Those usually blow up in fads, then dissipate when people get bored. They probably do a bit too much damage at the moment, though.
Likely set them there because that’s where people to to run to get to the point so they’d run through that while he hits with LB and he can immediately replace traps at point once they are passed. It’s very much a burst cheese… reminiscent of frenzy+100b warriors.
The higher your rating goes the less you see that, usually Maw gets dropped and PoB also gets dropped in favor of more meditation which grant better sustain and utility at the cost of minor amounts of damage.
Interestingly, I also thought Frenzy+100B wasn’t that big of a deal. No one really knew what they were doing back then and couldn’t be bothered to bring a stun break or dodge the animation. Quickness was a bit over the top, I’d say, but that whole scenario was blown way out of proportion (in my opinion).
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
You have to hand it to Anet though OP, they’re consistent:
Give the most solid profession the best (possibly) elite spec,
Give the crappiest profession the worst elite spec – Ranger/Druid.
I would disagree that a gimmicky trap build is the best elite spec. I also thought Druid was considered a really solid support spec.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
@Selwynn: I’m one of those who would self-identify as WvW focused, and I personally think WvW needs more merging between PvP and PvE. I think there has to be a way you can incentivize both types of players to participate in WvW and contribute meaningfully if you direct them with the appropriate carrot. I hate saying it, and I don’t understand it, but so many MMOers don’t play MMOs for fun, they play for reward. I think that reward needs to be guided, and can be guided, so both sides find enjoyment.
I also don’t think the laser event is rewarding for both types of players. It only really matters for PvP players (making an objective easier to take), as a PvEer could receive the same reward for the same locations just zerging around at a different time. It isn’t that the event is solely PvE, because it’s technically a competitive gathering event. You can run over and sabotage other groups of players to keep them down while your world continues to gather. It’s just that nobody really cares that much, because 5 mins after something is taken because of the event, someone else will probably take it back anyway.
I worry that if you make the game too PvP-only, what you’ll get are only PvPers. In my experience, especially in larger-scale PvP, PvPers quit regularly if the going gets too tough. They transfer guilds, transfer worlds, leave the game and blame it for their “loss”, or they try to stack the deck in their favor, removing competition.
PvEers aren’t infallible by any means, but with the right events, they would serve as a target both for attack and defense. Ideally, it would be like a caravan roaming through the wild. It’s a target for being attacked, and therefore it should have defense.
The main issue is that you have to make WvW more rewarding than PvE training in the direction of something PvEers want, so they risk the failure of not getting it all the time. Also, if it gets really popular, you might deal with queues again.
I just honestly think WvW will continue to dwindle unless they make the map feel more like an open world environment, complete with players who don’t necessarily want to fight.
I’m not trying to convince you, just sharing the opinion of someone else on the WvW spectrum. Personally, I exclusively want to be fighting people. I just also want WvW to feel more like open-world, and less like a big sPvP map (which it does actually feel to me, even with the maze-y maps and NPC-defended objectives).
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Thank you for posting, I’m going to try it out.
Do you have to take literally every opportunity, even when given something that might help an experience, to take a jab, though? It isn’t like they put this in the PvE forums and say “Check it PvEers, new client!”. It’s in the forum you would expect it.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
WvW Invitational Statement from John Corpening, game director for World vs. World
in WvW
Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283
We are several weeks into HoT, so now would be as perfect as time as will ever come to commence with the “WvW focus”, and with that I mean that they should start with a dialogue with the playerbase.
I thought HoT released on October 23rd. Seeing as it is November 5th, that’s 13 days ago. Are you counting the beta events? If you’re exaggerating dates and times for effect, I have a difficult time thinking you aren’t doing the same with whatever else you say.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Oh man, a whole 600 HP/s in PvE. Welp we did it boys, nevermind Blighter’s Boon is obviously amazing nothing to do here wrap it up.
Cop out one sentence and mock it. Typical forum whiner. Refusing to understand and see anything beyond that one particular thing they want.
At least I tried.
roll eyes
The interesting part is that Bhawb isn’t a typical forum whiner. He just really hates that Necros almost immediately lost the first thing they received to allow allies to fully support a Necro, since you could heal the Necro through Shroud by applying boons.
Good on you for making it work for you, though.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
I actually really like the notifications. I’m not constantly monitoring the map, so it’s nice to receive a heads-up when the state changes. I can see it being an option, though.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
If you’re running GS, you owe it to yourself to try the new Superior Sigil of Swiftness/Agility + that Sigil of Intelligence. It’s pretty amazing for helping to land Gravediggers.
See, I thought I looked for that sigil in sPvP, and I couldn’t find it. Apparently I’m blind, or daft. Or both?
I’ll look again. As it stands, GS #5 into GS #2 pretty consistently lands Gravedigger if they don’t blow a stunbreak (and for some reason they usually don’t yet).
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
5.I dont know if intended but targets can avoid by side stepping the attack, and if it is intended I want to know why, cause i see all ranger range skills are pretty much heat seekers.
Thank you for your time, and I really hope to get an answer if you working/aware of those things.
Just to mention about projectiles, basically every projectile besides very few that are homing (like DS #1) will lead a target in motion to hit them. However, once let loose, they will follow their path regardless. As a result, even for Rangers (I’ve done this to them at close to max range), you can stutter strafe back and forth, and the projectiles will mostly fly to your sides and not hit. If a Ranger has the increased projectile speed, you aren’t as lucky, but you can do this trick for a lot of different projectiles to buy yourself some breathing room.
I’m pretty sure that’s intended. Also, as an aside, it also means that when you fire a projectile without a target, you can technically hit someone regardless. I used to do this when hunting for Thieves via DS #1 after they stealth. Pop a few projectiles into a Shadow Refuge to see if I can get some hits in. Or, if they go stealth while immobilized, I can shoot projectiles at the point where I immob’d. It’s pretty cool, even though not super useful by and large.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Guardians specialize in protective and defensive magic.
Straight out of the wiki.
I think that line was what they used on the initial description of the class 4 years ago on the website. At the time, that’s what Guardians were.
In 3 – 4 years, the class has developed as the game has developed, both mechanically and in the lore.
People will dig up literally anything from any amount of time ago to try to prove a point.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
One thing that’s helped quite a bit for getting off heals after RS is watching for the Infusing Terror stab pulse, seeing it pulse, casting Terrify, then dropping shroud and immediately healing. If I’ve got a chrono on me, I’ve found my best bet is to hope for an ooLoS spot.
I had this thought in the middle of a match the other night, then totally forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder!
@Vydahr: I’m running something that is less than optimized/ideal, but I’ve been playing around with alternating Spite/DM. Right now I have something like this:
I threw Sigil of Battle on Axe/Focus, but I don’t really like it. I thought I’d be cool and get 2% LF on swapping to that weapon, but that just isn’t much, and I’m really not that cool for doing it. I’ll need to look around at what else I might want with that weapon set.
I know people don’t like Axe, and I know people don’t like Focus, but I wanted to try them together for kicks. I’ve been a long-time Focus user, so the cast times don’t bother me, and being able to strip 3 boons and chill from 1200 range has been awesome. I know Staff has long-range chill on a shorter cooldown, and the AoE fear and such, but there’s something about the amount of LF I can generate quickly with Axe #2, Focus #4, Axe #3 (with BB) that just really tickles me. With the 7 second cooldown on Shroud, cycling through those abilities and YSIM can catapult me back into Shroud at a high amount of LF, and if they dodge those abilities when I use them, then they have less mitigation to deal with me being back in Shroud, since I usually pop in and out fairly frequently based on situation.
Also, Melandru Runes + Relentless Pursuit is maybe my new favorite thing. Someone mentioned it in a thread recently, and I wanted to high-five the thread, because it feels wonderful. With Axe, Focus, and GS, I lose all my weapon-based condi transfers, and I’m only running Plague Signet for emergencies at the moment. To fill that gap I tried just baking more condition “resistance” into my build with Corrupter’s Fervor, Shrouded Removal, and Melandru. I’m not sure how well it’s working, but I think if I play my cards right it feels pretty good. Some condi Thief played me like a fiddle last night and it was infuriating because I was being an idiot in the 1v1, but I’ll be keeping an eye on how it performs under pressure.
Anyway, that’s enough jabbering.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Even with Rise! we’re not OP in my opinion. Reaper’s are very solid, and though general builds aren’t very different, we have a few different flavors that are all good. We’re also one of the few classes that can be extremely tough to take down solo without sacrificing a ton of damage potential (unlike Water camping Eles on point)
And, frankly, that style of sturdiness is kind of new to the game as something truly viable. And if our tankiness encounters some added Might, Quickness, or any other boon, really, we become absolute powerhouses (let me tell you, getting full stacks of might from a teammate in PvE against a boss as a DM build is soooo gratifying.) And, because of that, people very well might get scared. However, we do have clear, exploitable weaknesses.
For instance, even in a build that has Heavy armor toughness with or without Corrupter’s Fervor, a Reaper doesn’t have a lot of inherent condi cleanse. Even though our life pool is high and a single condi user isn’t likely to down us, a couple can. Or a condi guy and power build. We’re strong against pressure and fight back much better than a lot of classes in 1v2’s and greater, but we can succumb. Reaper’s are also ridiculously slow, and have a hard time catching up to targets. Also, though RS can boost a Reaper considerably, it’ll run out. And, again, vs one target we’re strong, but if they can get us out of shroud and burn through some of our HP, they’re likely to win.
So, yes. We’re the monsters in PvP. Big, slow brutes that are difficult to take down. Maybe not the scariest, but Grenth help you if you get caught unaware by a Reaper. But, on the other hand, Grenth help us if we’re caught even a little unprepared, because we’ll go down too. We’re strong, but with weaknesses. As it should be. And if Anet remembers that, then we should do fairly well through future balance patches
tl;dr – We’re solid. But we can be killed. We’re gonna be fine
I agree with your assessment at the moment. When I drop out of RS, I’m really quite vulnerable, and although Rise! helps with that, it’s still the same “no personal stability” situation that can be exploited. I have already seen myself get dazed out of healing multiple times in a row while trying to shout, and it really sets me back.
I feel like I’ve been sort of playing as an underdog for so long that I want to make sure I fairly evaluate how strong my build is. Right now, I think it’s really strong, but can be punished.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
@Cogbyrn: It may be questionable design but that is how it is currently is.
Haha, I believe you. I just think that’s probably a bigger issue than the raw damage number. At least in my opinion.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Just lost both dodges and he just lost both pulls. Now, assuming LB/GS, he has LB5 and maw. Assuming you aren’t built as badly as the engi in that video, you should have another 1-2+ defenses/ mobility skills of your own. LB5 is a nonfactor in 1v1s, so he realistically has maw. If the engi had JUST elixir S, that fight would’ve been insta GG for him.
If he had prelaid his traps, then he would have a full set of new traps to relay if the engi survived (not counting dragon’s maw). And a | true shot + JI + Heavy Light + GS or relay traps | after the elixir S ended would be very hard to counter. Especially if the engi is out of dodges and the DH has daze on traps.
That sounds like questionable design. I’d think the traps should start their cooldown upon being activated. You can always make a secondary ability of the trap activate it manually if you need to trigger your cooldown.
You could also force manual activation of traps with a slight cast time, even just a half-second, so they don’t all pop at once like that.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Did the DH in that vid set those traps up behind the Engi, anticipating a dodge roll back into them? If so, that’s a good read. Sure, the damage might be too high, but isn’t that also all of that DH’s utilities?
Just seems like a burst cheese build. Those usually blow up in fads, then dissipate when people get bored. They probably do a bit too much damage at the moment, though.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
The chill buffs have been looking good in spvp. I run 3 necro builds in pvp now. Wish we had templates so I don’t have to use character slots. The two builds were cele signet and marauder reaper. Newest one is carrion deathly chill.
It’s not yet fully optimized because it’s something I quickly crafted but I’m pleased with its performance Qing Solo so far today.
THANK GOODNESS DRAGON HUNTERS ARE PERCEIVED AS OP
Maybe due to its high damage and low skill capBut I have a feeling there will be soon lots of QQ threads on the PVP subforum about your build. It is crazy powerful but yet to be discovered by the masses.
It has to be. We should all thank DH’s for taking the spotlight off Reapers and Scrappers.
Serious question: is there something in particular about Reaper that is currently too strong? I get that Reapers are strong, as I feel nearly invincible with my Soldier build in the few sPvP games I’ve played. It takes me not knowing at all how to fight against a particular build/style, or multiple people chaining daze/CC at just the right time and applying high damage consistently for me to go down.
But where is the line between them needing to adapt to what we bring to the table, and what we bring to the table being too strong? Someone mentioned Deathly Chill needed a nerf because they didn’t know what could beat a Condi Reaper 1v1.
For starters, should the proclaimed selfish class not excel in 1v1 at the very least? And second, do people just need to figure out that they can’t come full bore at us and down us anymore?
One of my biggest concerns is actually that Rise! is going to see a hit, maybe down to 25% damage reduction or something. Regardless, I’m curious what people think about the current situation, because I feel really strong in PvP. I’m trying to decide when I draw the line of feeling “too strong”.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
I finaly realized what made this 1500tick btw. It prolly was the last chill tick. Dmg of the last tick is added up together with the remaning time as far as im aware. So no wvw, corruption or anything else.
If that’s true, that’s really interesting. Thank you for highlighting it!
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Also, when you defend, you fight players, because the enemy players are the ones making defense necessary. Don’t people want to fight people?
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Sigh. I should know better than this. I’ll see myself out.
I’d be amused to see these people reaction if they had to play any other MMO.
Like holy crap, I thought the RP’ers in SWTOR where whiney, this is something else entirely.
I’m completely floored by this thread. It used to be that if you give people an inch, they take a mile. Now, it’s like they expect the mile.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
yeah, don’t really want to fight when you have to run for 5 min to come back if you die…
They have sPvP for that. If you’re a PvPer, you should always want to fight, because you’re making it so the person you just killed has a 5 minute run back as well, giving you time to take objectives.
Can’t have an “afraid to lose” mentality and expect a game mode to flourish.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
So you think the purpose of WvW is to have large groups of players fighting. It’s a nice thought. I’m sure it’s a purpose. But the purpose?
Yeah, that is its basic purpose, is to offer people that battle environment.
If your going to question it, with an implication that it is not the purpose, the least you could do is offer a reasoning that it wouldn’t be the purpose, and most of all, enlighten us on what you think the true purpose is.
I wrote this long-winded response to your challenge while I was on a work call, because I thought it was a fair challenge to make. Then I clicked “reply” and lost it because of some login error. I should have known better to save my post, and now I’m really sad.
Here’s the short version, and this is all opinion (of course). Before, I was challenging the idea that WvW has a singular purpose, not necessarily stating I had secret information as to what that purpose is.
WvW is designed to emulate the thrill of Open World PvP. The idea that you are running around accomplishing something (questing, farming mobs, killing camps, killing yaks, taking towers, whatever it may be in the game), and a fight can break out with anyone at any time. It may be one person, you may get trained, you may train one person. It could be a small skirmish, or a large one. The unknown is the thrill, and the potential for PvP while doing something else is the draw. Some just want to PvP, so they’ll choose classes that can move around quickly and attack those who are out doing something else. Classic OWPvP set-up.
As such, I actually think PvE is potentially the key to WvW. Here’s an idea I thought up that, I know, has flaws. But I’m looking to incentivize fighting in WvW, so bear with me:
In general, reduce any rewards gained for completing objectives in WvW. Add more PvE events that apply buffs for each world in that BL based on performance. I’m not talking stat-based buffs, like Bloodlust. I’m talking reward-based buffs. The winner of the event gets a buff that dramatically increases the quality of their rewards for taking towers and keeps. The losers get a buff that dramatically increases the quality of their rewards for being part of an active defense of a tower or keep. Winners utilize the buff to then try to storm around the BL with a group that really wants to take objectives. Losers utilize the buff to try to defend any and every objective they have to gain their rewards.
If a world has every objective on a map, they may throw the event, or assist one side or the other. That’s fine. Whoever then wins the event still needs to take objectives, and since they lose, they are incentivized to actively defend. If you win, you gain nothing for defense. If you lose, you gain nothing for taking objectives.
I know there are flaws, both those I can think of off the top of my head and those someone else would have to think up for me. However, I think the key to WvW success isn’t trying to jam/force PvP down everyone’s throats. There’s sPvP for that, and hopefully guild arenas assist with 20-40 man competition.
I think the key is a merging of PvE and PvP, such that PvPers have more people to fight, and fights are incentivized/localized around the map at points that are easy to determine (in the event, at objectives, etc.). PvEers add numbers and gain meaningful rewards for participating. PvPers want PvEers to fill ranks and complete events, and PvEers want PvPers to help take objectives, defend objectives, and defend them while they do events.
Those are my thoughts on the subject. I doubt there’s a very happy medium between making the rewards “too good”, so PvEers feel like they have to WvW, and making them not good enough, so no one joins anyway. I almost feel like they should make the rewards raid-quality though, so if you aren’t part of a guild doing high-level PvE content, you can participate in WvW to work on whatever gear you would otherwise be unable to get.
I don’t know. Spitballing here. I just don’t think WvW can succeed on PvP alone, regardless of how much people say there’s too much PvE in their PvP.
Anyway, not a very short version because I love Open World PvP, and I love thinking about the possibilities. And again, I don’t think my ideas are infallible, but I very emphatically don’t agree that any sort of one-dimensional solution will work.
@Zinkz: I see your point about map design, and how making it linear/requiring “influence” in an area will focus fights. I agree that could work. However, does it just make it more of a numbers game? Will people trade maps instead of just objectives on maps to avoid big blobs rolling down the lane? In DOTA 2, sometimes the best idea when they group up kitten and go down a lane is to group up kitten and go down a different lane. It isn’t always the case that you force a fight by grouping up, but I acknowledge your solution would probably help avoid circling around maps at the very least.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
(edited by Cogbyrn.7283)
They’re trying to reduce the amount of PvE in WvW, and now everyone is yelling at them.
It’s the wrong way to go about it. Find way to make WvW actually fight real enemies, instead of zerging around trading captured keeps with enemies to farm HP scrolls.
People have all the opportunity in the world to fight each other if they want. If they don’t, then it says to me that people don’t want to. They’d rather avoid fighting people for PPT.
The other day I was attacking a camp, and an enemy whose world owned the camp came running up. I turned and started attacking him, and he just ran through to the camp, then ran away to go somewhere else.
I question how much people actually want to fight. I also question what you’d have to do to get them to fight. I guess make it so each person you kill has a 10% chance of dropping a random legendary weapon. That might do it for a while.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Also, I’m sure you know this, but the idea behind relative comparisons of numbers is that, given an equal situation in a boss fight where all classes have to dodge/lose up-time at an equal amount, the DPS will scale equally and the positioning of the classes will remain fairly consistent. Of course, that can easily be called into question given the nature of the damage rotations and the mechanics of each boss, but it isn’t completely off base as a rough sketch. So why go hard against it?
The reason why you could go hard against these kind of numbers as a comparitive basis, is because they could be (not are) compleltely off base. The mechanics of a boss can be made so that they make builds from nigh uselless to very desirable. Yes in some case they can be comparable but in some others they are simply not. The boss that teleports all over the place and reflects/negates all projectiles will make a staff ele’s dps plummit while a scepter necro might come out better.
The numbers are just a starting point anyway. If a boss like that exists, the player needs to take responsibility for thinking through what to do next. If projectiles are all negated in a boss, what is your class’s next best alternative? What build/rotation makes sense on a particular boss given its mechanics?
Understanding the theoreticals behind various builds and knowing how to optimize each build for a given scenario will only make you a better player.
And if there’s a single boss that happens to negate a certain type of damage, does it completely nullify the benefit of running numbers? Because that one boss exists? That’s a reason to say “these numbers shouldn’t be used anywhere ever”? I don’t think so.
Again, I’m just for personal accountability. If you don’t know how to apply the numbers, don’t judge others. If you do know how to apply the numbers, take your gameplay to new heights, and you’ll also understand that they aren’t a mechanism for judging others.
The game needs damage meters, too.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
You can play for free. Doesn’t mean the game is a f2p model. Mike O’Brien specifically said they are still considering themselves a buy to play product. So essentially your entire argument is invalid.
I disagree. There are people who didn’t buy the xpack, but bought the core game before. It’s like they took what they bought from them, those people still should be able to be competitive in pvp.
You’re lucky you can even play with people who have the expac in PvP, to be honest. If you had vanilla StarCraft, and a friend had Brood War, did he pay to win if you were able to play agaist him? No, he’s playing Brood War now.
So come play HoT, or don’t complain that you don’t get everything for free after your initial payment. Expansions aren’t a p2w mechanic.
I have the xpack.
The reason people with and without xpack play together is the fact the population is not high enough to separate them but it still isn’t fair.
What’s another game where you don’t have to buy the expac, but you stay “competitive”? What genre does that happen in, where they don’t add new units/guns/abilities/races/etc. that take the game to a new level, but it’s still an expansion?
That would be esport type games like Lol and Smite. One of the most attractive things about Gw2 is (or was) its level playing field in spvp. Its still much fairer than other mmos I have played though.
Do LoL and Smite have expansions? In LoL, when they release new heroes, don’t you have to buy them? Does buying access to the “good” heroes in LoL make it a pay-to-win game? Otherwise I’m stuck with the rotation heroes, which may not give me a real shot at winning.
Exactly you don’t have to buy them to be competitive, glad you understand.
You don’t have to buy expansions, because expansions don’t exist? That’s your argument to me asking what games with expansions don’t require you to buy them to be competitive?
Sigh. I should know better than this. I’ll see myself out.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
I believe most of the core issues have been addressed by the new map, but haven’t been solved completely…
Not really, the core issues that actually render the game mode worthless and not fit for purpose, have not been touched, running around PvDooring avoiding fights in a mass PvP mode of “epic battles” & ticking for 400+ off-peak for hours with virtually no opponents is still the way to “win”.
Things like ‘more defending’ are a total irrelevance if most players couldn’t care less about defending in the first place because the score is neither here nor there when the game mode is not fit for purpose due to those core issues.
So you think the purpose of WvW is to have large groups of players fighting. It’s a nice thought. I’m sure it’s a purpose. But the purpose?
ANet gave you a large maps with different types of objectives to have various sorts of fights in/around. You can even fight in the open field. And it’s ANet’s fault that everyone avoids fighting?
Are you going to suggest they add PPK in order to incentivize fighting? What you’ll probably end up getting is more hiding/running, to be honest. If a group doesn’t have a clear advantage in numbers, they’ll most likely run away, otherwise they’ll get destroyed to the detriment of their world.
I don’t care what system you propose. You aren’t going to be able to force people to constantly fight unless you queue for sPvP or organize a fight with another guild.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
You can play for free. Doesn’t mean the game is a f2p model. Mike O’Brien specifically said they are still considering themselves a buy to play product. So essentially your entire argument is invalid.
I disagree. There are people who didn’t buy the xpack, but bought the core game before. It’s like they took what they bought from them, those people still should be able to be competitive in pvp.
You’re lucky you can even play with people who have the expac in PvP, to be honest. If you had vanilla StarCraft, and a friend had Brood War, did he pay to win if you were able to play agaist him? No, he’s playing Brood War now.
So come play HoT, or don’t complain that you don’t get everything for free after your initial payment. Expansions aren’t a p2w mechanic.
I have the xpack.
The reason people with and without xpack play together is the fact the population is not high enough to separate them but it still isn’t fair.
What’s another game where you don’t have to buy the expac, but you stay “competitive”? What genre does that happen in, where they don’t add new units/guns/abilities/races/etc. that take the game to a new level, but it’s still an expansion?
That would be esport type games like Lol and Smite. One of the most attractive things about Gw2 is (or was) its level playing field in spvp. Its still much fairer than other mmos I have played though.
Do LoL and Smite have expansions? In LoL, when they release new heroes, don’t you have to buy them? Does buying access to the “good” heroes in LoL make it a pay-to-win game? Otherwise I’m stuck with the rotation heroes, which may not give me a real shot at winning.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
And it isn’t fake math. It’s real math. It’s the responsibility of the players/community to analyze and understand it properly. Running a propaganda campaign against it is no better than running a propaganda campaign for it.
This is ridiculous. If something is given to be misleading or wrong, then it is actually a lot better to campaign against it than for it.
If you’ve spent any time with people, you’ll know that applied math is wizardry to the layman. The average person is in a mindset such that they don’t realize they can apply middle school math to real life problems. They’ve gotten into the habit of letting “smarter people” handle it for them. So of course they are going to take anything mathematical at face value as cannon.
The DPS calcs should come with a disclaimer that says “unless you are in this exact set of circumstances and achieve perfect play against an enemy that doesn’t fight back, you won’t be getting these numbers”. This is something you have to tell people.
I’m arguing that the math isn’t designed to be misleading. The purpose isn’t to mislead. It’s to inform. The nature of the information is the question.
I know that people take what other people say as fact without questioning it, especially if it is a topic they don’t like/don’t care about/feel “dumb” in. But that very much feels like a “you can’t blame people, they’re just ignorant” argument, and I really, really don’t like that mentality. I’m very big in personal accountability, so if a bunch of people are using numbers wrong because they don’t understand MMOs, it’s their fault. If a snake oil salesman sells you a false product, it’s your fault for buying it. Sure, he might be a jerk for trying to swindle people for gain, but you and everyone buying from him are enabling him.
A disclaimer would be nice, sure. But I bet you it would just get lost in the shuffle anyway, and people would still use theorycrafted numbers as The Word. People want to be part of the “in” crowd, and if that means taking numbers as law just to put other people down, that’s what they’ll do. MMOers in particular love to tell others how to play, and it has always irritated me, since very few of them actually understand why they are saying what they’re saying.
Also, I’m sure you know this, but the idea behind relative comparisons of numbers is that, given an equal situation in a boss fight where all classes have to dodge/lose up-time at an equal amount, the DPS will scale equally and the positioning of the classes will remain fairly consistent. Of course, that can easily be called into question given the nature of the damage rotations and the mechanics of each boss, but it isn’t completely off base as a rough sketch. So why go hard against it?
Anyway, I don’t like simply trying to say “believe my numbers” or “don’t believe their numbers”. Any campaigning is lame, in my opinion, and I don’t care to villainize either side. The math has its place. So does individual thought. I personally couldn’t possibly care less about speedrunning, but I still like to know theoretical numbers to inform on rotation potential to enhance my gameplay.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
RS #3 triggers what, 8 total Stability stacks, for about 1040 healing total without healing power. Axe #3 gives you 1 “stack” of Retaliation per enemy hit, which can translate into 5% LF or (I believe if you get the trait that uses it on Shroud), 650 health. Focus #4 can potentially give you 2 stacks of Regen, though that’s unreliable.
And why exactly are we ruling out might as a boon? You can spec to get a stack of might on Shroud #1, on hitting a chilled foe, on hitting foes below a threshold. You can use Runes of Strength to proc more mights, Sigil of Battle procs 2 stacks of might when you weapon swap if you want, etc. YaaW can give you up to 10 stacks of might.
I use Blighter’s Boon currently in my build, and I really enjoy it. All the little pieces add up, and I’m not even fully specced to take full advantage of it. I just think it’s a good supplement.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
You can play for free. Doesn’t mean the game is a f2p model. Mike O’Brien specifically said they are still considering themselves a buy to play product. So essentially your entire argument is invalid.
I disagree. There are people who didn’t buy the xpack, but bought the core game before. It’s like they took what they bought from them, those people still should be able to be competitive in pvp.
You’re lucky you can even play with people who have the expac in PvP, to be honest. If you had vanilla StarCraft, and a friend had Brood War, did he pay to win if you were able to play agaist him? No, he’s playing Brood War now.
So come play HoT, or don’t complain that you don’t get everything for free after your initial payment. Expansions aren’t a p2w mechanic.
I have the xpack.
The reason people with and without xpack play together is the fact the population is not high enough to separate them but it still isn’t fair.
What’s another game where you don’t have to buy the expac, but you stay “competitive”? What genre does that happen in, where they don’t add new units/guns/abilities/races/etc. that take the game to a new level, but it’s still an expansion?
That wasn’t the question. The question is if it means it’s pay to win, which it obviously is.
Obvious to whom? This goes against how I’ve seen “pay to win” used in every single other game in the past.
Can you buy gear in the in-game store that has better stats than gear you can earn? Pay to win.
Can you buy buffs in the in-game store that give you an advantage, that you can’t earn in the game? Pay to win.
Can you buy in-game money with real currency, then turn that into high-end gear that you didn’t have to earn by crafting/playing? Pay to win, but at least there’s a way to earn the gear in-game. It’s more “pay to win until more people catch up”. Archeage was like this, along with being actually pay to “win” (have an easier time doing things) in other facets of the game.
And now we’re adding to the list “Can you buy the expansion and get access to new content that makes your character potentially more powerful in the PvP meta?”. What’s next? Is basketball going to be pay to win, because you can buy nice shoes and have better ankle support than someone just sporting tennis shoes? Is StarCraft 2: Legacy of the Void going to be pay to win, because you can’t compete if you don’t have the latest version of the game?
You pay to play HoT. If you didn’t pay to play HoT, you’re fortunate to be able to play with HoT people, but you’re going to be at a figurative level 60 in vanilla WoW while everyone else has leveled to 70 in Burning Crusade.
Other games never advertised themselves as : Buy one time only.
Gw2 did.
ANet advertised that you’d never have to pay for an expansion? When and where? Show me the ad campaign, I’m curious.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
You can play for free. Doesn’t mean the game is a f2p model. Mike O’Brien specifically said they are still considering themselves a buy to play product. So essentially your entire argument is invalid.
I disagree. There are people who didn’t buy the xpack, but bought the core game before. It’s like they took what they bought from them, those people still should be able to be competitive in pvp.
You’re lucky you can even play with people who have the expac in PvP, to be honest. If you had vanilla StarCraft, and a friend had Brood War, did he pay to win if you were able to play agaist him? No, he’s playing Brood War now.
So come play HoT, or don’t complain that you don’t get everything for free after your initial payment. Expansions aren’t a p2w mechanic.
I have the xpack.
The reason people with and without xpack play together is the fact the population is not high enough to separate them but it still isn’t fair.
What’s another game where you don’t have to buy the expac, but you stay “competitive”? What genre does that happen in, where they don’t add new units/guns/abilities/races/etc. that take the game to a new level, but it’s still an expansion?
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Bring it in line with what? How much damage should it do at full Might/Vuln stacks? How much damage does Burning do at full Vuln/Might?
And how did you get it to do 1500 damage? I used a standard Rabid build and maxed my buffs/target’s debuffs.
The fact that you don’t know what can 1v1 a Condi Reaper doesn’t mean it needs a nerf. You admit that you don’t know, so why are you jumping to conclusions? Something out there probably can solo a Condi Reaper, and if not, then we need to figure out what exactly is making it so Condi Reaper is not 1v1able. If Chill did 200 less damage per second at 25 might and 25 vuln, would some class suddenly be able to 1v1 a Condi Reaper? From 1100 to 900 damage at that level? Or is that not really it?
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
You can play for free. Doesn’t mean the game is a f2p model. Mike O’Brien specifically said they are still considering themselves a buy to play product. So essentially your entire argument is invalid.
I disagree. There are people who didn’t buy the xpack, but bought the core game before. It’s like they took what they bought from them, those people still should be able to be competitive in pvp.
You’re lucky you can even play with people who have the expac in PvP, to be honest. If you had vanilla StarCraft, and a friend had Brood War, did he pay to win if you were able to play agaist him? No, he’s playing Brood War now.
So come play HoT, or don’t complain that you don’t get everything for free after your initial payment. Expansions aren’t a p2w mechanic.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
I’ve seen GS #5 work on inclines several times.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
I’m being honest. I love GS so far, and I can’t wait to use it more. In PvP.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Flumek, you’re exaggerating for effect, and it isn’t helping the discussion in any way. You don’t have to like the GS, but just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s bad.
What exactly is he exaggerating?
Chill reduces damage taken, increases enemy cooldown and keeps enemy in melee range. I think that’s important. Don’t you?
The gap closer GS 5 doesn’t work and AA never lands the final hit for chill. So no chill application on a weapon designed for chill application.
Sounds pretty god awful to me.
I’ve seen GS 5 work many times for me. You also have 12 vuln/12% LF on one of your abilities, and a pulsing blind field on another. You also have an AoE ability on a short cooldown that people almost have to dodge. And if they dodge it, you can play off of it.
Sounds pretty good to me.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
boon corruption for this instability is useless, because it has no ICD on applying boons when being hit. so i just run usual dps setup. cant be bothered with removing boons when they reappear in 2 seconds.
I think the point was that an LFG ad was saying “need Necro”, not “no Necro”. Regardless of how effective you think a thing to be.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Sorry for the double post, but I just ran a test. On the indestructible golem, with Rabid amulet, 25 might, and 25 vuln, Chill was ticking for about 1100 per tick.
Very curious how you see 1500.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
@Cogbyrn.7283 it was just a standart rabid reaper build. mightstacking pushes it up to that number. he was alone (we were testing in an arena) so it was only his own mightstacks, no other sources. I honestly dont know how many vunerbility stacks i had. But keep in mind that Reaper can ez get 25 vunerbility stacks in 1v1 and also can get 20-25 mightstacks. This is insane in 1v1s (also in teamfights. but in 1v1 reaper will win everything now i guess). Perma chill is already hard (more cds on skill and well you cant disengage). This amout of dmg is too much imo
How long does it take a Reaper to get 20-25 might stacks in 1v1? How long does it take a Reaper to get 25 vuln? If you let a Reaper spam Shround #1 on you, yes, Might and Vuln can be stacking quickly. Otherwise, what is hitting you that you can’t dodge? GS #3 stacks 12 vuln, but is fairly slow.
As others have said, by the time Chill is ticking for 1500 (I still want to see it for myself), you’re already in a world of hurt. Odds are, the burning from Shroud #1 alone (assuming a Dhuumfire condi spec) would be destroying you.
Also, it’s funny to say you can’t disengage from Chill. Necros always complain about how Chill doesn’t keep anyone from disengaging, because movement-based abilities are no longer affected at all by Chill in their speed/distance.
Necros already get balanced by super extreme cases that don’t really happen in a real situation. If you’re standing in an Arena, letting a Necro stack Might/Vuln for several seconds, in a full Condi spec, then Chill may tick for 1500. I’d need to see it for myself, not just some snippet of combat log completely taken out of context. But if that’s even the case, what about other classes that stack 25 might? What do they start doing to you?
Can you let any class do whatever it wants for 15+ seconds and expect to live? The whole idea behind Necromancer was a class that gets stronger as the fight goes on. That’s basically never been the case. It finally might be the case, but now chill damage (a condi that is removed by/reduced in duration by the largest number of skills/traits, I believe (I could be wrong)) is “broken”.
TL;DR: I disagree with your assessment.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”