Guild Wars 2

I can’t help but think that the ability to tank in Zerker gear with Toughness food is a failing on the part of PvE’s design, namely it being extremely forgiving to those used to the current meta.

Keep a tankier build in your back pocket, such as a Cavalier + Scrapper Runes DM/SR/Reaper, just in case you end up needing it. Until then, I bet you can pump out a tank in DPS gear, as people are saying.

Photinous.4628:

Being an esport means $$$ for the creators of the game. That’s all it is. The more people that watch it, the more people will want to buy and play it. Unless a large number of people watch the tournaments, then this game will never be an esport game. Just watch the evolution of overwatch once it releases. It will show you how a real game should become esport and may eventually kill the “esports” scene in this game.

The game on the horizon is always going to “kill” the current game that is out. It hardly ever happens.

Overwatch is probably going to be no more of an e-sport than TF2, also.

Peaks aren’t necessarily the best metric for analyzing DPS potential. I played an Arcane Mage in Cataclysm before gear and trinkets brought Arcane up to competitive tier, and you would peak extraordinarily high during burn phases. However, your DPS across the entire fight wasn’t necessarily better than Fire spec at the time. In fact, it was simulated worse.

Everything needs to be in context.

First, you have to define what you mean by “e-sports”. If your definition of an e-sport is a game that competes with LoL and DOTA 2, then sorry, not many games are going to live up to your expectation. Maybe CS:GO, and if you really love the game, you might throw SC2 into that category, though I’d disagree with the latter (and maybe the former, but I don’t know much about it).

I had difficulty reading the OP because of the following:

A successful Esports needs two things:
Players, and spectators. The game is actually not as important.

The concept here is so generic that I have no idea what the OP means. The game is actually paramount, because a “game” constitutes all of its components, including:

• Spectate-ability
• Depth of mechanics
• Pacing
• Ability to understand the current state at a glance
• Etc.

I also disagree that removal of the holy trinity in PvE was a good thing, because based on what I hear about raiding, the holy trinity is sort of present anyway. You have someone who tanks, support who help heal the group, and DPS who bring the boss down as quickly as possible. If you want to design meaningful and complex encounters, structure actually helps you make it more complex without worrying about silly boundary cases. It’s important for balance.

Similarly, structure in their PvP is pretty fluid, from what I can tell. All classes seem to expect to be able to be all roles, and if they aren’t, then “diversity” is a problem. If they solidified builds for classes and had a pre-game draft of various builds (for example a “Condi Necro”, a “Bunker Guardian”, a “Support Ele”, etc.), then they could probably balance PvP much better. Instead, they throw a million variables into the mix and wait to see what settles.

There are a number of reasons why GW2 might suffer as a widely popular e-sport, and many of them I don’t think are really fixable. However, can people hold tournaments and get a thousand spectators or so? Sure. Does it have to be Monday Night Football to be an e-sport when it comes to attendance? No, I don’t think so. As long as they have a competitive platform and offer tournaments/monetary rewards, I think the term “e-sport” applies.

Yasha.5963:

So what I don’t understand is, why did they take away the “solo queue” and “team queue” options and introduce ranked and unranked team queue? There must have been some very good reason right?

One of the greatest things about GW2 pvp used to be that there was no pugs facing premades (unlike almost every other mmo). Even hotjoin used to be pretty fair. Why did they take all of that away? Is there some grander picture I am not seeing?

Odds are it was rampant feedback about how there wasn’t an unranked place to queue for fun, so they needed to make unranked. In that situation, “ranked” could just be anyone who cared about MMR.

I don’t have any history to pull from to support that, but I’m guessing people yelled at them, similar to how they are now, about how they need to change the old system because it was flawed.

Such is feedback when you have a really large audience.

Morwath.9817:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If I’m being honest, I would mute anyone who tried to use VOIP anyway. Most of the time it’s people who assume they know best, or people who want to yell because you aren’t doing exactly what they want.

A solo queue sounds like a perfect recipe for a ‘too many cooks’ situation.

I would mute it for different reason, and for same reason when I instant perma-block anyone using non-english in /team.

Thats why I believe Smite like system is much better.

Yeah, agreed. Even something as simple as what Heroes of the Storm uses, a few options for map pings, such as “Defend here!” or “<Name> on the way!” to let you know what others are doing. I’m just against VOIP.

Do people make new threads about these topics that are already being discussed because they know a band of people will rally behind them, and they want to be flag-bearers for “the cause”?

Also, kdaddy makes a good point. Even in solo queue, you’re going to get uncoordinated teams against a group who knows what they’re doing, and the result is probably going to be similar. Problems don’t magically go away with a solo queue. They just change.

I’ve always thought this trait was extremely poorly designed. If Elementalists need more options for condi clearing, make it something active. Or do something like “Removes 1 (or 2, whatever) condis every 3 seconds while above 75% (or 50%, whatever) health”. Or “Reduces duration of all conditions applied to the Elementalist by 33% while above 75% health”. Or either of the two “while attuned to Earth” instead of at a threshold. Still passive, if passivity is what the design is really looking for, but they aren’t complete negation.

Why does it have to be an on/off switch?

If I’m being honest, I would mute anyone who tried to use VOIP anyway. Most of the time it’s people who assume they know best, or people who want to yell because you aren’t doing exactly what they want.

A solo queue sounds like a perfect recipe for a ‘too many cooks’ situation.

For ranked, if they do make it more restrictive, I think it should be solos or 5-man teams. If you can’t do teams of 3 or 4, you don’t get to do teams of 2 either. Strict solo queue.

Don’t forget, it’s a team game, where teamplay and comp matter. Just because your build happens to counter theirs and you might have a really difficult time in 1v1 doesn’t mean something is OP, nor does it mean the other player is necessarily bad, nor does it mean you are necessarily good. You’re just built to fight that person, and their team has to adjust if their plan is to send that one person against you, whatever it is you’re doing.

Everyone always wants to demonstrate their enormous individual skill, so there’s this backlash against builds that cause them problems. Does anyone ever stop and think “Oh, this build is giving me a hard time, but that’s OK, because I give all these other builds a hard time”? It certainly doesn’t seem like it.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

FYI, here is what a real engineer does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPJOLSe7k6U

Yes those are 7k burns, 5k bleeds, 2k poison and 2k direct damage.

He only gets 7k burns, 5k bleeds, and 2k poison sometimes. That isn’t even close to what he is putting out on average.

Anything to take a shot at red posts, even if they are 11 months old, eh guys? No one holds a grudge like an MMO community.

People really like this Gun Flame build, don’t they? Or can we just not question anything that has to do with Warriors because, well gosh, life is super duper hard for them right now?

I don’t even care to change anything about the ability. I just don’t think it’s a good design direction, personally. If it stays just how it is forever, I don’t care. You can keep the Sniper Assassination Specialist Warrior build. Everyone will be bored of it within about two weeks anyway, I imagine.

ReaperJr.5967:

Pro-vaxxers are not brick walls. Rather, we are supported by the brick wall that is science. That aside, i have no idea what you’re on about.

You mean, i shouldn’t be able to deal 20k even if i specced fully for damage with no regard for defense? Why? How is that questionable design? Im sacrificing defense entirely for that damage. It’s a tradeoff. Risk vs reward. High risk, high reward. Im also taking the risk that the opponent will get hit by one of the most telegraphed attacks in game. So why not?

Also, your analogy isnt really relevant. Before you ask, i had 5.3k solo mmr before quitting slightly more than a year ago, so i know what im talking about.

I didn’t ask for your MMR, because not only do I not care, I don’t believe you anyway.

I also don’t necessarily see a problem with Gun Flame, I just think giving a single attack the scaling potential to hit that hard is questionable design for this game. Do I think it should be a priority to “fix”? No. The game even has downed state so you can just rez a teammate who gets dropped by it anyway. But is it really fun gameplay for both parties to have one build that’s a one-pump-chump, where if you avoid it you win, and if you don’t you lose? It was extraordinarily boring fighting the Zerk Rifle Warrior who specced into this gimmick a bit earlier tonight, because he just folded over.

Is that what it should be? Either you go full gimmick and try to land kill shots, or it isn’t very good? Do you think that’s really good design that deserves strong support in the face of scrutiny?

Vanthian.9267:

People complain about “Gun Flame” yet everything is fine with 24k damage with chill in a two minute fight without condition damage gear.

24k damage spread out over 2 minutes. That’s 200 damage per second.

You’re right though. Sounds imbalanced. Not sure what I’d do in the face of such pressure.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. I promise I’ll get footage up after I upgrade my rig after thanksgiving but every engineer POV I’ve seen has left me underwhelmed. Maybe I’m not paying enough attention to my own numbers but from my observations they seem to do at best comparable damage to my condi reaper.

That’s the problem, the spreadsheets say one thing, anecdotal seems to agree with the spreadsheets, and it isn’t like I think Engi DPS is lower or anything. I’m just curious how much lower.

The game needs damage meters.

/15 char forum shenanigans

So I found what I think was a signet Gunflame Warrior in a Stronghold match. I ate what I believed to be two Gunflames right to my unshrouded face while just watching the warrior. Then I killed him because he could do nothing about the pressure I brought to him.

There’s a reason I spec tanky.

ReaperJr.5967:

It’s like trying to convince an anti-vaxxer, i’m talking to a brick wall.

Ironically, so many “pro-vaxxers” are brick walls, too. And let me tell you what, two brick walls don’t communicate well at all. No they do not.

Also, on one hand, anything that hits for 20k is probably not designed very well. I don’t care if it takes 6 seconds of obvious channel-dancing. At that point, even if it is obvious/easy to avoid, that just means it has to be obvious/easy to avoid, so you have black/white gameplay: avoid it and win, get hit and probably lose. Questionable design.

On the other hand, dying in sPvP is not really the end of the world. You just respawn and run back in, hopefully having learned. If you didn’t learn, watch carefully the next time and learn. It’s like being Laguna Bladed in DOTA 2 (an ultimate that does a very large amount of damage instantly to a target). Yeah, you probably died, but either you entered an engagement you shouldn’t have, or your team can potentially clean up the now-much-less-threatening Lina/Warrior.

Not necessarily the biggest deal, imo.

Tobias.8632:

CtD not affecting condis?

I think this and Spectral Armor still working as intended during Shroud (even though the tooltip still specifically mentions it is removed when you enter Death Shroud) are two of the biggest “Oh, what?” moments I can think of wrt tooltips for Necros. Good stuff.

But yeah, I think a condi necro could serve as a really good tank in the sense that they could build to not take much damage, but still apply some solid condi pressure. My power tanky build also does pretty well for itself, though I haven’t really pursued raiding yet. If I do I’ll be giving the tank role a whirl.

SlayerSixx.5763:

I remember when I first started. I was using this shout guardian build and tried dpsing with it to a fantastic effect (I got rekt). I pushed past it.

I remember my first time playing dark souls. I got rekt horrendously by the asylum demon and immediately quit for a whole month before I mustered up the courage to get that fatkitten down, so I understand where you’re coming from, but GW2 isn’t that difficult. Hell, if you’ve played until level 80 before PvPing (idk why I waited, but I still did), you’ll understand stats a lot better.

I don’t mind a streamlined system, but a completely dumbed down or one limited around newbies? Why not give veteran players the option to cut out the crap they don’t enjoy x.x?

I don’t think a system that is newb-friendly is also necessarily veteran-unfriendly. But given how intolerant people can be (especially a larger/more varied audience like an MMO pulls in, as opposed to a Dark Souls, which consists of challenge-hunting masochists (I spent a large amount of time playing Dark Souls 2, really enjoyed it until I started resenting the fact that I needed a 3rd party program to make a m+kb set-up work (and some triple-mob boss wrecked me after a long slog))), I don’t hold streamlining against them, even if it has an impact on me.

EDIT – And if you give vets the option to cut it, you’ll need to put some sort of restriction on new accounts at least, otherwise people will just complain that new players are skipping the tutorials (or whatever it may be) and playing poorly on their team.

Zargoon.9835:

Hey Justin,

You have some good thoughts in there, but in case you didn’t notice, this thread is 11 months old at this point. Justin may or may not be the droid you’re looking for.

I’d say whoever has the earliest application of the stack of conditions that killed the monster gets credit. So if Player A started bleed ticks at 0 seconds, and Player B starts bleed ticks at 3 seconds, if both Player A and Player B have bleeding stacks applied when the boss dies to bleed ticking, Player A gets credit. However, if Player A’s stacks fall off, and he re-applies them at 6 seconds, then Player B will have the earlier stacks and would get credit should the boss die to bleeding after 6 seconds.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Cogbyrn.7283:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Why do you guys simplify systems so much for new players? Honestly, the game isn’t that difficult to understand. If the player has never queued on that account, force them to build their toon by opening the build screen before they begin. Refer them to meta battle so they have a template to build around.

People aren’t idiots, anet.

I respectfully, but strenuously, disagree.

In general x.x?

Yes. People often struggle with very simple systems, in everything. They blame the system first, then tell others that the system is bad. Much easier games than GW2 have large swaths of people who barely know how to play. Many people hardly understand their own class, let alone all of the other classes, which they honestly need if they want to actually perform well in PvP.

If they don’t make the systems easy to use and understand, and help guide new players through the system, then the player is very liable to say “Eh, I don’t get it”, then play one of the other trillion games that exist.

Being able to dive right into PvP is a blessing, but it’s also a potential curse, because you’re launching a new player into everything there is to know about the game (level 80 builds, stats, damage types, full builds) before they know anything about the game. They could probably use a lot more optional tutorials to explain mechanics, and simple systems never hurt.

EDIT – Also, SlimChance nailed the quote I always think of when it comes to the concept of “people”.

Tobias.8632:

After the past two days, 20+ hours of raiding, I feel like necro/reaper has literally no place in a raid group.

A necromancer can tank, but not as well as a dedicated tank revenant or scrapper or guardian.

A necromancer can power dps, but not even half as well as a zerker revenant who also puts boons out over the whole party as well as the ridiculous 50% boon duration buff.

A necromancer can condi dps, but it is generally poor. I’ve spend most of my raiding experience as condi dps or condi tank because we just couldn’t find people with other classes to fill those roles and I’m like “please someone else condi so I can play zerk rev”. At the hight of a condi rotation, the bleeds are ticking for 5k, the poison is ticking for 1k, the torment is ticking for 1k, and the chill is ticking for 1k. A grand total of 8k damage per second at best, which usually averages more around 5k while signet of spite and other stuff is on cooldown. This is less damage then you could do with a power build, let alone a good condi class like engineer, warrior elite, or elementalist.

I’ve been maining and defending this class since launch, but that was for anet’s “you can play whatever” content strategy, which does not apply to raids at all. If you want to get anywhere close to completing a raid, you are FORCED to minmax your party composition, roles and classes, or you’ll hit the enrage timer when he still has more then 25% health left, and this is just the first easiest boss in the raid, you won’t even get to look at gorseval.

NovaanVerdiano posted a video of his group, including a Reaper, taking the boss down with 37 seconds left on the timer. Not exactly enraging with 25% health left.

Here’s the video, from this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxI1yYV5igY

You say a Reaper can’t tank as well as a “dedicated tank revenant or scrapper or guardian”. Can you define “well”? Are you taking about the ability to take damage? If we’re talking min-max, you’re going to want a tank that puts out as much damage as possible while still surviving.

It’s tiring seeing a lot of generalizations and comparisons, but no data or much explanation.

Evan is absolutely everywhere today, and it has been awesome.

Also, really interesting and good question. I’m not sure deciding on and coding a fix would pass a cost-benefit analysis unless a fix is deemed super quick and easy, but hopefully a story is written on the idea so they can review it for a potential future inclusion.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Why do you guys simplify systems so much for new players? Honestly, the game isn’t that difficult to understand. If the player has never queued on that account, force them to build their toon by opening the build screen before they begin. Refer them to meta battle so they have a template to build around.

People aren’t idiots, anet.

I respectfully, but strenuously, disagree.

Am I legitimately the only one who queues solo and doesn’t mind going up against pre-mades?

StickerHappy.8052:

Cogbyrn.7283:

The issue is that if you restrict a queue to 1+1+1+1+1 only, you cause issues. You either need to create a completely new, 3rd queue, that allows any size group of 4 or lower to queue, since a group of 4 would no longer ever be able to queue into a Team Queue without a solo player to fill. Or, you allow solo players to queue in Team Queue, but why would they at that point?

It would further separate the community and most likely increase queue times. Plus, you can’t guarantee that the solo queuers are taking the game seriously until your rank establishes. In Unranked, you’ll never guarantee it.

It could work, of course. I would queue up for solo queues if they existed. But I don’t mind going up against pre-mades, personally.

Thats why bring back solo q and team q. Simple. We had this before so what are you explaining here?

So you can only queue as 1, or you can only queue as (a team of) 5?

EDIT – The forum filter just hit me with a change-up.

Nightshade.2570:

Right now I am afraid to PvP. My computer is new and has a random crashing problem. (sometimes happen twice in one day sometimes doesnt happen at all). Anyhow I have not PvPed due to the dishonor system timer because when the freeze happens I have to do a full shutdown and restart. This will sometimes take more then 60 seconds.

I am playing other aspects of the game as the freezing problem is not severe and I think its a driver update conflict but has not resolved yet. In the end I would really like to PvP but I cant chance getting stacks of dishonor for this reason.

I don’t think it would be a good thing for all of the people you would be playing with if you would crash mid-match and effectively ruin it, knowing that your computer is unstable. I understand you want to PvP, but it sounds like you should work on fixing your computer first.

The issue is that if you restrict a queue to 1+1+1+1+1 only, you cause issues. You either need to create a completely new, 3rd queue, that allows any size group of 4 or lower to queue, since a group of 4 would no longer ever be able to queue into a Team Queue without a solo player to fill. Or, you allow solo players to queue in Team Queue, but why would they at that point?

It would further separate the community and most likely increase queue times. Plus, you can’t guarantee that the solo queuers are taking the game seriously until your rank establishes. In Unranked, you’ll never guarantee it.

It could work, of course. I would queue up for solo queues if they existed. But I don’t mind going up against pre-mades, personally.

knight.8926:

Cogbyrn.7283:

knight.8926:

Steel Courage.1250:

just stop lol, i just want my main thief fixed so i can have a 50 50 chance against all classes in pvp!

I 1 v the whole team before and still won. I dont think thieves need fixing heres why.

If I so much as breathe on you, you’re going to die.

thats some serious bad breath

Honey, you don’t know the half of it.

So, you want 1+1+1+1+1 vs. 1+1+1+1+1 exclusively? And I’m guessing you want it to balance class/spec distribution. Oh, and you want it to balance MMR distribution as well, I’d imagine.

And people playing together, in unranked, for fun, is ruining your hardcore road-to-MLG experience?

knight.8926:

Steel Courage.1250:

just stop lol, i just want my main thief fixed so i can have a 50 50 chance against all classes in pvp!

I 1 v the whole team before and still won. I dont think thieves need fixing heres why.

If I so much as breathe on you, you’re going to die.

Amazing. Good luck to the participants!

XxsdgxX.8109:

Oh look, again with this kitten. The cancer just resurrected.

Cancer is only ever in remission, it is never fully cured.

Harvey.7820:

Yesterday’s PvP daily included winning a game with a warrior. I usually just win the game with my Dragonhunter and log onto my warrior before the match is over to complete the daily, but since we now get dishonored if we log out to change characters, I simply decided to play a few games of unranked. After some frustrating matches against reapers and other dragonhunters, I decided to just complete my daily in Hotjoin and be done with it. I join hotjoin and instantly see 6 warriors in a single match, all seem to be competant and have skill, are level 80 judging by the flare of their armor, and playing in Hotjoin.

This is what it’s become. Warriors queue hotjoin to get their PvP daily win.

You’re probably right, a sample space of 1 anecdotal hotjoin experience is statistically significant.

Nier.8741:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Ritt.3069:

Unrelenting Assault:
-CC it during the 3/4s cast time (ez)

Which CC should the Reaper use that is ez to land in the 3/4s cast time?

You don’t need to CC the Rev? Reaper is also easy and effective, all you have to do is land the HYDROMANCY PROC (specially during glint where the Rev can’t cleanse the Chill) AFTER you bait out evades (which is already easy) and maybe land Plague Signet while they’re blocking assuming that you have any idea how to bait out cool downs. And if a Revenant burns energy on shiro dodge to cleanse the chills (which they have to because Reaper perma-chill is braindead op) then congrats you made them waste energy and they will have to go glint to refill that energy (Glint gets destroyed by condis).

You CANNOT be complaining about Rev when you are a Reaper, END OF STORY. If you are complaining about Revenant on Reaper then you either have no clue how to rotate OR you literally cannot land hydromancy (hell you even have passive chills, and the mark isn’t hard to land either) or plague signet to save your life.

Also, you don’t need to be 1v1ning Revenants in a team setting, you can get a Druid or Tempest to hold point vs. a Rev and then you GANK/plus that Rev.

Like I know Rev is braindead and effective as a class but so are other classes that isn’t a Thief and a Warrior you know?

The point was that interrupting a 3/4s cast time isn’t always “ez”. Unless you’re a class with ez interrupts.

But I guess if you want to try to shoehorn Warriors and Thieves into another thread, go for it. We should all be impressed by everyone who plays either of those classes, because they are really slogging through a desperate struggle. Those brave, brave men and women.

I also don’t have a problem with Revs in 1on1 right now. Not in the sense that I always win, because I’m still not very familiar with everything they are doing. But they don’t seem to do anything that is completely outrageous, based on what I could tell. I would need to learn more about the class and fight it more before I actually form an opinion.

Ritt.3069:

Unrelenting Assault:
-CC it during the 3/4s cast time (ez)

Which CC should the Reaper use that is ez to land in the 3/4s cast time?

What’s the specific line of demarcation between being meta and not being meta?

Practice in Unranked. It’s unranked, which means it’s no big deal.

Or, just deal with hotjoin group fights. If nothing else, fighting outnumbered forces you to quickly learn your skills to survive or realize what kills you fastest.

Plenty of places to learn, you just need to not care so much about losing/dying.

NiloyBardhan.9170:

LOL @OP’s account name

This thread is HUGE bait XD

Oh god, I didn’t see it at first.

There go my sides, zipping through the galaxy.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I was addressing the trinity archetype in my comment about roles, but I lacked explanation on the following.

As it stands now, thief does not have the capabilities to fill any role -but- the +1 /backcap that they fill now, because bruiser specs are nonexistent, tank specs are nonexistent, and assassin specs lack the sustain to deal with the above two when applied to thief. we’re 100% roamer and because of that thieves can only combat efficiently when there are additional players.

This is essentially the problem we need rectified. We don’t have the baseline values required to build in a way that allows us to be combative in the current meta on our own.

You make a valid point, and combined with how filling that role seems to also impact the Thief’s ability to perform in other venues (namely PvE, because Thieves have always been WvW roamer extraordinaires), I don’t think it’s sufficient for a Thief to only fill that role. Bunkers can potentially serve as tank-roles in PvE, Bruisers can off-tank/tank in a pinch while still bringing DPS in PvE, Assassins would ideally be able to perform a DPS role, and Group Support is most likely useful for allowing others to spec more aggressively into damage in a PvE scene.

A +1/Backcapper, though, is very, very specific to just sPvP, and it also just doesn’t sound very fun by design. You either cap points while no one is there, or hope an ally is joining a fight so you don’t feel like you’re going to get wrecked.

So provided it IS the case where a Thief is hopeless in those other areas, they do need something. I’m a bit skeptical that many here have really put the time and effort in to adapt to a shifting game, as I think they instead are latching onto a mob that is stating Thieves are weak, so they have an out. However, it is a valid argument, in my opinion, that simply filling a +1/Backcap role isn’t sufficient for a class’s design. So it does seem like Thieves could use some design work/pressure tweaking.

I appreciate you (and you, Serious Thought, for the PvE balance angle) taking this journey with me on examining the thought I had regarding Thief balance and sPvP “roles”.

Serious Thought.5394:

Another thing to tack on (can’t believe I’m wading into this hell storm, but I bought this game solely for the Thief class and I’m ready to leave based solely on its state. so I care. stop judging me) is that many Thief players have stated in game and off that they’d give Shortbow 5 away for an actual class. Like Azure said, it doesn’t make sense to give a class an advantage then nerf it dead- just change the advantage. Also, I like how you want this balanced around PvP content and then ignore PvE… we are the new Ranger. In actual raid groups, I can’t get in. I’m a Thief, I literally bring nothing. I do not have high damage, I do not have great condi, I don’t enjoy high supportive capabilities, I’m not particularly survivable without dodges, but its k I can shortbow 5 the boss? I mean…really? Its totally ok to nerf a Thief straight from no PVP viability to gtfo my raid PVE viability? Makes sense guys. Warrior still goes, its why I firmly believe that you are in a better spot. You have SOMETHING. Thief is just the run in circles. Also, I think both classes need help so don’t try and tell me I play favorites- read the signature.

I am ready for people to argue with the most logical post in this forum. Go.

I was just thinking from an sPvP perspective since we’re on the sPvP forums. Thieves in PvE are a completely different animal. However, if you balance a Thief in PvE by increasing its DPS (which, the game needs damage meters, I’ll say that until I RIP), would that potentially help solve problems in PvP? The class almost feels designed specifically with PvP in mind. For PvE, what would they do to increase overall DPS? It seems to me they’d have to just ramp up the auto-attack damage until it gets them up to “snuff”. How much auto attack damage would that be, and would it be outrageous for PvP, given the rest of the Thief’s kitten nal? It might not be, honestly, but I don’t know what kind of DPS any class is regularly putting out, because I have a difficult time trusting people’s ability to do math/spreadsheeting accurately and objectively (game needs damage meters).

And again, re: the OP, it isn’t like Thieves are the only class to be hoisted by their own petard. Necros have seemingly regularly been balanced around “stars aligning” situations because of their overall design, resulting in a whole lot of lackluster traits/weapon abilities/etc. Sure it can be frustrating, but to single an apology out to one class, or think ANet hates a class? Silliness.

And yes, I know Reapers seem to be in a really good place right now, and I really enjoy mine. Good Thieves are still a chore of a fight, though.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You’re missing the point.

Right now, Thieves cannot fight without adds. It isn’t fair to them to insist that because they have the option to traverse obstacles if they take a specific weapon, they should not be allowed to be a capable opponent for decapping a contested point or even defending a pre-owned one. That’s like a teacher saying that because a student can finish a quiz quickly, he has to get a set amount wrong.

You don’t punish a class’s fighting potential in a game where there are supposedly no roles by stuffing them into a role. I don’t know how the game would change if thieves could actually contest points, but it certainly isn’t entertaining or engaging for the people that play thief that are looking for action.

Thieves should have the potential to win fights against skilled players, baseline, in 1v1. being able to fight should not be a privilege that automatically is stripped if you can move quickly, at the cost of all dps, mind you. If you have a specific weapon, mind you further.

Maybe some talented players will be able to take that option of 1v1 potential and turn into complete monsters at the game, but if that skill level is reached then monstrosity is deserved, for any class. And this is 1v1 we’re talking about. Send two people to a point and the problem is resolved.

I’m mostly just thinking out loud. I don’t think Thieves should be totally unable to 1v1, but 1v1 balance is precarious, since your build could potentially devastate one class in 1v1 but fall short against another. At least, that’s how my life has been since I started playing Necro years ago.

But at this point I’m just examining the idea of a class that can:

• Regularly win 1v1s
• Back-cap points with high mobility
• Support fights to +1 with high mobility

Say the Thief back-caps a point. Knowing Thieves are strong in 1v1, can you just send 1 person to go try to contest? Probably not. So the Thief just theoretically decapped/capped a side, and forced a rotation of 2 players to contest. Given the Thief’s high mobility, once the 2 arrive, he can choose to fight for a bit, or just bounce and slam back to a different point to support. If one of the 2 who contested rotates back, the Thief can slam back to 1v1 the node, since Thieves are strong in 1v1.

Could any other class fill that niche/role as well as a Thief? It seems like an extremely important one to Conq-mode, and if not, it means every team basically needs a Thief. Is that balance?

And you can’t tell me you believe that GW2 is designed as a game with no roles. That marketing ploy was specifically targeting Tank/Healer/DPS roles in traditional MMOs. Any game mode, especially PvP, is going to develop niches that require certain attributes to succeed. You want to hold points, so you put someone tanky on the point to survive. Bunkers are born. You need to be able to kill bunkers, so theoretically, Assassins (or whatever you want to call them) are born. You probably need to rotate and support fights effectively, so Roamers are born. Some classes can potentially fill multiple roles to varying degrees, so you get middle-grounders such as Bruisers who can absorb damage but still fight without being impotent. Since each class is unique, a distribution is going to develop.

If anything, I think roles could and should be established from a design perspective so ANet can officially balance around them. Instead, everyone wants to be able to be everything, and it contributes to constant complaining/desire to avoid the role a class excels at because the player just wants to be something else. When ANet tries to balance for all of those cases, you get a wild, nebulous balance ride instead of being able to provide feedback specifically around why your class cannot fulfill the role it’s designed to fill.

In any case, I don’t really think it’s fair for a class to be completely unable to contest a point, since you can make an argument I made above in the other direction. If a Thief cannot contest a point solo, then the team with the Thief requires 2 people to rotate anyway. At that point, what good is the mobility of the Thief if you’re waiting for another to arrive to make progress? Perhaps the Thief could soften the target up a bit just in time for support to arrive, but does any team really need a Thief ever at that point? Maybe not, and that doesn’t sound good either.

I don’t know, I was bored on calls and wanted to try thinking about Thieves from various angles. Regardless, I still don’t feel sorry for the class, like I don’t feel sorry for any class.

Here’s a general thought I just had regarding Thieves, thanks to Dakarius’s post and some others:

People have mentioned that currently, the Thief’s role in a Conq comp is a +1/pet who rotates around quickly. There seems to be irritation about that role, and I think Dakarius might have highlighted why that is (for me, since I don’t really get why having a unique role is a bad thing): Thieves used to be one of the better 1v1 classes.

Let’s examine that for a moment though. A Thief’s ability to traverse a map quickly is probably not going to go away, so they can skip around from point to point quickly. IF a Thief is one of the best 1v1 classes, and they can isolate points extremely quickly to create 1v1 situations on sides, doesn’t that make them potentially too good? You have a class who can go win 1v1s on a dime, so you either need Mesmer portal support or someone equally quick to rotate over and save the 1v1 scenario from a rotating Thief, who can slide off of the point and go somewhere else quickly.

Of course that’s all theoretical, and there are more variables to consider (TTK in the 1v1, speed other classes can rotate, how bunker can bunkers bunkers, etc.). It just seems like the mobility of the Thief lends itself to +1ing wherever he/she is needed, and in that case, making them ruin classes in 1v1 as well potentially makes them monsters.

On the flip side, a Thief should be able to apply pressure to individual targets appropriately, so if they rotate into a teamfight, they can skip around the edges (not Warrior-mode into AoE and die) and give other targets something to think about. Seems like a tightrope to walk, but I just don’t see why being a +1 role is a bad thing.

Out of curiosity, can you swap in new players in the middle of the raid, or does it lock your group until you leave? Are there boss lockouts for raids for any period of time?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Edit: It should be noted that my dps as a full ascended viper reaper PALED in comparison to the viper’s engineer we had in our group. During the split phase we swapped with one of us on green and one of us on red between attempts. The red boss died ~40% faster when the Engineer was on him compared to when I was on him.

Did the green boss die ~40% slower? Were there other DPSers on these bosses? How did they perform on the red boss the second time around? How did they perform on the green boss the second time around?

Sykper.6583:

What I didn’t expect were tears. Bravo, I haven’t laughed so hard in a while.

You didn’t expect tears from a PvP community for an attack doing 20k damage? It doesn’t matter how gimmicky it is, people can’t handle situations where it felt like they couldn’t react, regardless of how many things they could have done to prevent it.