Guild Wars 2

Cynz.9437:

Thing is, why should a dps class that can be easily ignored by half of the classes, and deals mainly single target damage (not even highest in game) at costs of survivability have it’s damage nerfed?

Because that dps class is completely uncatchable by anything that isn’t itself.

The only way to handle a thief is to have your own thief. period. This violates the first rule of balance which is that the best counter to a class cannot be itself.

DH, engi, and war are not counters to thief because they cannot catch a thief. Only revs and chrono have a hope of touching a thief and but those classes are countered hard by thief.

Crab Fear.1624:

There are a “very few” options otherwise than can be worn…but if a majority of players are wearing those….how can any individuality be achieved in the game?

Protip the majority of players aren’t wearing those. Because the majority of players think the way you do and immediately went for the “not-trenchcoat” look. And thus they all ended up looking the same.

Wearing leveling gear is a more unique look than anything else these days.

apharma.3741:

Except a lot of the PvE people have expressed concerns with class balance and in particular HoT elite specs.

A lot of classes can output enough healing to make raids easy but why is druid the only healer you really see? The unique buffs, quite frankly it’s beyond broken in its role.

Can other classes stack 25 might? Sure, eles can keep nice might uptime and other classes can but nothing comes close to the ease of warrior + unique buffs.

Core condi ranger is one of the highest dps specs in the game. Engi doesn’t even use scrapper in PvE.

Warrior’s might gen is purely coming from core traits. Druid is the alpha healer because of spotter and SnR both of which are core.

foste.3098:

Crinn.7864:

What article are you pulling that imagine from? Those numbers seem irregular. WoW at the very least should have exceeded gw2 in revenue if nothing else.

for some reason it will not let me link the article itself so here is the website, you gonna have to do some searching to find it. Filter it by ‘revenue’, it was posted 22 days ago i think.
https://pvplive.net/m/news/

Idk how valid the info is but at least it gives you a number that you can reference to other sources. If it matches up then chances are it is accurate.

Oh they are referencing Superdata’s report.

The chart you linked seems to be only for PC games with competitive scenes, but it is excluding MOBA’s for some arbitrary reason. Probably to make Overwatch look better, since League murders everything in terms of revenue.

foste.3098:

DeceiverX.8361:

And in ANet’s delusional mind they think everyone with the expansion wants to play the elites and that it’ll incite the free players to buy power via the expansion.

How are those profit margins working? Not well.

About those profit margins……https://articles.pvplive.net/article_images/OverwatchRev.JPG

It might surprise you but the main players of gw2 are not pvp’ers but ppl who enjoy raids and idk pve i guess? Anyway these players do not have much concern about class balance or build diversity or whatnot.
So yea as long as the numbers are good no reason to majorly change anything, just pump out the next expansion.

What article are you pulling that imagine from? Those numbers seem irregular. WoW at the very least should have exceeded gw2 in revenue if nothing else.

Evan Lesh.3295:

MOAR DATA: ~3% of matches have substitutes which could* cause the original problem in this thread. We are testing fixes now.

The asterisk after “could” is suspicious.

I like HoT but dislike core.

Emdrix.6124:

Crinn.7864:

Emdrix.6124:

If you spam 4 or 1 you already ate a lot of damage because you did not blind anything and did not interrupt any key skills.

If you’re spamming 4 you should have interrupted every skill which would have included “key” skills.

Exception being warriors and rangers that are typically drowning in stability.

Not really. spamming 4 at the wrong time wont interrupt anything. U can spam at the start waste all your energy and not have anything left for the heal or other key skills

I was assuming a basic level of competency on the thief’s part.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

It’s worth noting that TrueSkill tries to do the same thing that Gliko does in terms of the uncertainty factor in MMR changes. So, uh, while it’s not wrong, it’s also not exactly a revolutionary suggestion in a game that already does that.

Technically TrueSkill is patented so Gliko isn’t exactly the same, but the mathematical underpinnings are similar; just the methods to reach the conclusion differ slightly.

Both do better than ELO for matchmaking.

Trueskill accounts for multi-player teams. Glicko assumes 1v1. Until glicko is redesigned to actually account for teams of players at different skill levels it’s going to be inferior to Trueskill.

I’m also pretty sure glicko isn’t Bayesian.

glicko2
http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf
trueskill
http://www.moserware.com/2010/03/computing-your-skill.html

The problem with thief is that the best class for catching and killing thief is a another thief. This violates the first rule of class design which is that the best counter to a class should not be itself, as that promotes comp stagnation.

OriOri.8724:

This is definitely a balance problem in that within each class some traitlines are so superior to others. But instead of buffing core traitlines I would rather see elite spec lines either redesigned or nerfed some more to bring them in line with core traitlines.

The problem is that elite specs are better for mechanical reasons. The only way to make them “on par” would be to straight up kitten them.

Realistically Chrono and DD are the only Especs that are superior for their traits. Most especs are just taken for the profession mechanic and/or new abilities.

Emdrix.6124:

If you spam 4 or 1 you already ate a lot of damage because you did not blind anything and did not interrupt any key skills.

If you’re spamming 4 you should have interrupted every skill which would have included “key” skills.

Exception being warriors and rangers that are typically drowning in stability.

I would make LF scale off of incoming damage.

There problems fixed without rebuilding the entire flipping class.

Coliseum achievements are not temporary. Arenanet made them permanent awhile back.

I got a +37 and a +34 from a couple matches.

They should set up a guillotine in HotM and publicly execute the characters of match-throwers, and then put the character heads on poles around the main area of HotM.

Bio Flame.4276:

Some previous posters replied saying that “You can’t spam with thief, you must be bad” or “Mesmers shouldn’t spam unless you’re bad”.
Well, we’re not speaking about me or you or someone else in particular. I am talking about how the classes tend to play as, in this current meta, as spammy.
So again, it’s not about YOU, it’s about the classes in general, post-HOT.
The classes are not your mother, nor your GF, nor your Wife, so stop being so touchy and sensitive when someone says that there’s something badly designed with a specific trait or skill on your class.

Pointless rhetoric. Posters aren’t disagreeing because they are sensitive, they are disagreeing because you are flat wrong.

the meta promotes mindless spamming and luck instead of rewarding players for using their skills during windows of opportunity and punishing players with lost opportunity costs.

And I repeat: the issue with a spammy meta, spammy classes,

the meta is not spam. Spamming will get you wrecked in short order by players that know how to use “windows of opportunity.”
The only place where “spam” occurs is low level play where the players don’t know any better.

But I don’t think you are dying to spam. I think you simply don’t understand the game well enough to know the difference.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm interesting except that Initiative used does count as a sort of CD it’s not like Thieves have unlimited Initiative, they blow their Initiative guess what they have to wait for more.

Ini management isn’t rocket science.

And yeah " setup"burst right.. when majority of Warrior Interrupts do a significant amount of damage sans pommel bash and are all on relatively low CDs.

Skullgrinder and Headbutt are the only CC that deal notable damage. Nobody ever died from Shield Bash damage.
Skullgrinder is a issue to itself but that is not the purview of this thread.

What is a Cc used for besides interrupting or locking down players? Oh yeah that’s exactly what they used for funny isn’kitten

Warriors use CC to hold the target in place for their burst. Thieves use CC to interrupt. The usage is completely different.

Also warriors fulfill a completely and utterly different role than thieves. Something you and Cynz like to ignore in your effort to point the thread away.

The only modifiers that show up on the stat page are non-conditional ones.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

foste.3098:

@cynz if the entire class is dependent on a single trait to function then the class itself is the issue,

Except the class isn’t dependent on that trait. If Impacting Disruption was deleted from the game, thieves would still win all the same matchups that they already win, and lose all the same matchups that they already lose.

ID is a totally superfluous trait that has done nothing but promote mindless interrupt use.

You mean like The mindless Warrior interrupt use?

You use a interrupt wrong on a warrior and it goes on full CD. You use a interrupt wrong on a thief and it’s ok because #noCD.

Also warriors CC is used differently. Warriors typically use CC to set up their burst. Thieves use CC just to interrupt.

This thread in summary:
People claiming that (insert class they don’t play) is too spammy.

And that really what “spam qq” threads usually are. They are just standard QQ threads but with the poster trying disguise it.

foste.3098:

@cynz if the entire class is dependent on a single trait to function then the class itself is the issue,

Except the class isn’t dependent on that trait. If Impacting Disruption was deleted from the game, thieves would still win all the same matchups that they already win, and lose all the same matchups that they already lose.

ID is a totally superfluous trait that has done nothing but promote mindless interrupt use.

Erzian.5218:

It should not trigger on auto attacks. That goes for all “on interrupt” traits/skills in the game, though.

My programmer’s gut tells me that the game engine makes no distinctions between AA casts and any other cast.

A ICD would make more sense anyways.

Daishi.6027:

But if people “care about the pixels” why not have a feature where you can hide your division akin to titles?

This is already a feature. It’s a checkbox in the league tab. It’s on by default.

Bio Flame.4276:

Semantics.
My point/idea stands.

Don’t argue semantics, argue my ideas.

Your idea is pure rhetoric.

You are using a definition of “spam” that is so broad that you could apply that term to literally anything.

Bio Flame.4276:

1. Eles (which I play the most): Boonshare, which has automatic triggers for healing, Vigor, Regen and condi removal.
   The auras can be a mess during intense team fights, it’s hard for an opponent to see when/if an aura is going to pop and avoid hitting someone with an aura
2. Mesmers (which I also play) : Clone and shatter spam, which triggers lots of condis; Double Moa, Double/tripple Shatter spam which also triggers the previously mentioned condis; AoE Dazes which during a team fight also get very difficult to predict/see/avoid; Double shield 5 with it’s 2xdouble stun, quickness and projectile denial.
3. Thief: daze spam, backstab spam, interrupt spam, generally a trollish and unfun build to play against due to the huge burst, excellent mobility and general running around the map. It might be fun playing with one, but it’s very unfun playing against one (which should absolutely be considered and avoided when designing a class for PvP).
4. Druid: Longbow spam from afar; lots of healing; Celestial Avatar spam, Pet swap and F2 when possible; too much mobility for the amount of heals and DPS it does.
5. Engi: Invulnerability and block spam, waaaaay too much damage for its survivability; way too many automatic invulnerabilities.
6. Necro: how to put it? Condi spam; GS attack spam, Shroud spam; automatic proc spam due to how the build was designed. One of the greatest offenders as far as automatic procs are concerned.
7. DH: trap spam on teamfights; trap spam on points; Lots of skills with 3-4-5 different effects at the same time

And most of those things that you are calling spam actually requiring stringing together multi-ability combos.
Necro for instance requires a combination of weapon and shroud skills in addition to corrupts in order to create that “condi spam”

You’re not complaining about spam. You’re just hyper-generalizing everything.

kdaddy.5431:

GW2 was not spammy at launch, cant spam elite skills (moa) there are only a few cheesy builds since thief and DH mechanics are based around them.

On the flip side, at launch we had builds running around 1-shotting people. with other classes being totally useless.

Also for the record, nearly all auto-procs are core traits that have been around for years. The only “new” auto-procs, are the two on rev, and the trait in DH.

MadVisions.4529:

hi!
Not to bother, but could you mistakely unpin skyhammer from ranked rotation? It isn’t really grown up to the task yet :S

Skyhammer isn’t pinned in ranked. It’s a potential option but it’s not pinned.

Yessssss. Yessssss. Good.

Spamming doesn’t get you anywhere though. It’s predictable and easily countered.

It just works at low levels of play where people are bad.

alemfi.5107:

Crinn.7864:

How to 1v1 a Mesmer with a necro.

Peck, Squawk, and Flap are your best tools to fight a mes 1v1 as a necro.
It’s a tough matchup, but if you believe in the moa that believes in you, you’ll pull through.

I’m one with the moa and the moa is with me. I’m one with the moa and the moa is with me. I’m one with the moa and the moa is with me….

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

Actually arc divider is good example what is really strong. IP is not in comparison. Thing is, you just don’t want us to bring up spells from other classes because you just want to get IP nerfed.

No class has the interrupt capabilities of thief, and IP hits way to hard for such a interrupt heavy class.
IP would be fine if thieves couldn’t interrupt chain till the end of time.

As a necro I would rather face a power warrior 10/10 times than a IP thief, because warriors can be countered. Thieves you can’t touch because literally every single one of my casts is interrupted.

Warrior begs to differ….

Warrior does not have the interrupts of a thief. The closest would be a old school physical build. And warriors have large amounts of telegraph on their CC.

Oh really? Let’s see Meta Thief can Chain 4 Headshots together, Warrior can Chain 4 interrupts together all on low CD funny how that works isn’kitten Since you were talking about Chaining together Interrupts, and saying how no other class can Chain as many CC, and guess what the Warrior CC Chain does more damage overall….

Meta thief has steal interrupt, their elite and 5-6 headshots if they are alternating HS with auto.
Bad thieves that can’t manage ini are not relevant to discussing balance.

Warrior has 4 interrupts that go on full cooldown when used.

babazhook.6805:

The thiefs auto is immaterial as there counters galore available to every class in the way of traps, aoe blocks and the like that can counter that auto. The thief drops fast when a mistake made.

AoE blocks don’t exist outside of well of precog which isn’t run. DH is the only trapper class relevant to balance discussions since trapper thieves and trapper rangers are free kills.

You seem to have little experience with a thief. I play them extensively and all styles. I assure you that in my p/P build as example I would much rather preserve my INI for unloads over headshot.

This isn’t about P/P thief. This is about D/P thief.

babazhook.6805:

You are facing some pretty bad warriors if they do not have interrupts to use against a necro spamming skills.

The warrior does not only have those interrupts but can easily add to them with all manner of added damage.

The difference is you can juke a warrior out of their interrupts. You can’t juke a thief because they have no cooldowns. Also warrior CC doesn’t get a free 4k hit every time.

Warrior 1v1s are so much easier than thief 1v1s.

How to 1v1 a Mesmer with a necro.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

Actually arc divider is good example what is really strong. IP is not in comparison. Thing is, you just don’t want us to bring up spells from other classes because you just want to get IP nerfed.

No class has the interrupt capabilities of thief, and IP hits way to hard for such a interrupt heavy class.
IP would be fine if thieves couldn’t interrupt chain till the end of time.

As a necro I would rather face a power warrior 10/10 times than a IP thief, because warriors can be countered. Thieves you can’t touch because literally every single one of my casts is interrupted.

Warrior begs to differ….

Warrior does not have the interrupts of a thief. The closest would be a old school physical build. And warriors have large amounts of telegraph on their CC.

Cynz.9437:

Actually arc divider is good example what is really strong. IP is not in comparison. Thing is, you just don’t want us to bring up spells from other classes because you just want to get IP nerfed.

No class has the interrupt capabilities of thief, and IP hits way to hard for such a interrupt heavy class.
IP would be fine if thieves couldn’t interrupt chain till the end of time.

As a necro I would rather face a power warrior 10/10 times than a IP thief, because warriors can be countered. Thieves you can’t touch because literally every single one of my casts is interrupted.

Cynz.9437:

He can heal himself vs direct dmg but has literary nothing vs condis.

Healing is healing. It heals condi dealt damage just as well as power dealt damage.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

The precast animation is identical to pistol#5’s animation. The projectile travel is only relevant if it’s used from maximum range otherwise it’s beyond what you can realistically expect a human to be able to react to.

Also latency. Some of us live in states that don’t have fiber infrastructure.

There is an animation, it isn’t exactly instanios travel you can see it and still dodge it.

If headshot if fired from sub maximum range it is well beyond what can be reasonably expected of a human to react to. Human reaction in a game is around 0.1 to 0.2 seconds plus latency. Headshot does not take a quarter second to apply.

Also why should balanced be done around people with crap internet, that is the worst argument to use.

Seriously? I have the best internet option in my state but I still have 90-100ms of latency because again my state along with most states that don’t have major metropolitan centers doesn’t have fiber infrastructure.

I’m not asking for the game to balanced around crap internet. I’m asking for the design to account for the fact that many players don’t live next door to a internet hub.

Emdrix.6124:

Reducing thief damage would just make killing bunkers impossible even force a boring necro meta again. Cuz then every class will have its damage nerfed except necros

I cannot figure how nerfing PI is going to force everyone else’s damage to be nerfed.

Also thieves are not and where never bunker killers.

Also nerfing PI isn’t going to gut thief damage, PI isn’t even the best way to burst on a thief. Nerfing PI is just going to make it so that you can’t kill people by spamming headshot repeatedly.

I’m pretty sure the MM works by arranging players into 5 man teams and then finding another arranged team for them to fight.

I doubt the matchmaker finds ten players and then arranges the ten into teams.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

The precast animation is identical to pistol#5’s animation. The projectile travel is only relevant if it’s used from maximum range otherwise it’s beyond what you can realistically expect a human to be able to react to.

Also latency. Some of us live in states that don’t have fiber infrastructure.

Expansions are necessary for publicity.

Nobody in the wider community goes “oh man this game I don’t play is having a balance patch, sounds awesome!!!!”

People do however go “Did you hear about that new expansion for XYX game?”

Expansions keep aging games like gw2 in the wider spotlight which is important if you want to attract new players.

Also I’d like to point out that
1) Elo is not glicko, and no you can’t use the terms interchangeably.
2) It’s “Elo” not “ELO” it’s not a acronym, Elo was the name of the dude that invented it.
Unless you’re talking about Electric Light Orchestra which is abbreviated ELO.

Glicko works well for the extrema. The absolute top players go straight to the top and the absolute worst players go straight to the bottom.

The players in the middle however are in for one heck of a MMR rollercoaster

HOT specs are not strong because of some evil dev conspiracy.

HoT specs are strong because the devs used 3 years of experience of what works and what doesn’t when designing them. The Core specs have their designs dating back to prelaunch when the devs where spitballing.

MammerJammer.6174:

It can’t be that bad…

can it?

It isn’t.

Playing without HoT is like playing CS:GO without the ability to use an AWP. You’re at a disadvantage but you can still compete.

Please remember that that forums ridiculously exaggerate everything.

Gwaihir.1745:

With fast hands you can burst an insane amount of times. Its almost impossible to not land one of them considering theyre massive aoes and mace has a leap+interrupt.

For some classes.

Dh are easily capable of shutting it out with their aegis and blind access. So can Mesmer’s and thieves.

Also poison is your friend.

Dawdler.8521:

You can CC and block a warrior all you want – they’re still gonna regen 1000 hp/s.

Adrenal Health requires the F1 skill to successfully hit a target. So blinding/blocking/evading the F1s result in no adrenal health for the warrior.

alemfi.5107:

Basically this. Only reason mace is being used is because of the skill being complained about, the rest of the weapon is pretty lackluster.

Except the block, and the instant daze.

The only thing “lackluster” about mace is the auto.