Guild Wars 2

Harper.4173:

Glass cannons work – is that your real problem here? They work if you’re skilled. If not they don’t.

No. It’s that they work better than other gear choices, IF many people make the same choice, and IF they plan on WPing out if they happen to die.

Seera.5916:

That does not suddenly make WP’ing out when you die and run back to a group event/boss an exploit.

In my opinion, it has always been an exploit. Their change just made it more obvious (to me, anyhow).

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Why is it an exploit if you do it as a glass cannon and not if you do the exact same thing on a tankier build.

It’s not exploitive for one person. It’s exploitive when a lot of people do it.

Ashen.2907:

You are mistaken. Anet specifically encourages people to waypoint out if they die. If the company not only says that it is OK to do so but actually directs you to do so it cannot be an exploit.

Source?

penelopehannibal.8947:

Given that boss fights have been a mechanic since game release, surely if any of the things that are being suggested as an exploit here, would have actually been dealt with by ArenaNet if they considered them an exploit?

That’s probably the best argument against my position, and several have made it. It’s why I stopped arguing about it months ago.

It’s the change in what counts as tagging a boss or event that I think makes it clear. But, obviously, I’m in the minority.

Seera.5916:

So because ANet didn’t give credit to reviving people for event participation, asking people to waypoint out instead of waiting for someone to revive them is an exploit……

Yup.

penelopehannibal.8947:

Waypoints cost money, so I don’t consider this tactic an exploit. Your suggestion sounds like the strategy of someone doing a Guild Bounty Hunt Mission to me. A strategy which many guilds, mostly smaller ones, would use.

I hadn’t thought of that, but yes, that is a good example. If all of the people doing a guild mission were glass cannons, they might very well kill the boss before the boss could kill any of them.

Now, is that good strategy, or an exploit? Or, neither? I’m sensing most of the posters on this thread would opt for good strategy or neither.

Healix.5819:

Originally, scaling was different, but it was changed at some point during season 1. Back then, scaling occurred every few seconds and only active players were factored. Basically, you had to be in combat to count. The problem however was that it was easily exploited and with the zerg design of season 1, became more of a problem. Large groups would destroy the target before it actually scaled.

Exactly.

NumenorLord.6539:

You know what else is an exploit? Those tricky players that use armor with high toughness and vitality stats… How dare they? Monsters are supposed to kill you, when you make a tanky character you are cheating because you are not dying when you get hit. Exploiterzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!

But, there’s a high cost to pay (at least for most gamers): It takes a lot longer to kill things.

So, you have inadvertently made my point for me. The fact that it would be absurd to call this an exploit is intended to ridicule my main idea. But, it does NOT, because the cost a glass cannon pays is something many people expect him to pay anyhow (all the ones who say “WP when fully dead”). Put those two together, and that’s what makes it (IMO) an exploit.

maddoctor.2738:

And non- glass cannons can’t do this?

See my previous post.

maddoctor.2738:

I see this as a not so cleverly disguised “I hate the zerker meta” thread.

Very true. But, not disguised at all, or at least not my intention.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I don’t think there’s really anything to discuss: if ANet cared about this for open world content, they would have acted to deal with it already. Further, I think the OP has confused the issue by making it about the build, when it’s a technique that is stat-independent.
——————————————————

I’m going to restate the OP’s question, because I don’t accept the premise: this has nothing to do with glass cannon builds. The tactic the OP wants to discuss is sometimes called “death rushing”, in which team members attack a target close to a waypoint and, if they die, they use the WP and return to battle ASAP.

We know ANet’s stance on this from GW1: it was perfectly acceptable (if odd) to use this to level characters in pre-Searing to L20 (I over-simplify the process) and to train pets in post-Searing. We know ANet’s stance on it for dungeons: they prevent it (rather than call it an exploit) by disabling waypoints in instances and take steps to ensure foes reset if the party dies.

We can therefore speculate as to their attitude for open-world content in GW2: they don’t care — if they did, they would make it harder to death rush and increase the penalties. Since they have done so for instances and not for open world, we can presume that it doesn’t matter much to them. Ergo, not an exploit.

The discussion of glass canon builds is a red herring and moot: you can do this regardless of your spec. In fact, I know of guilds using this technique against certain bounties, because they know their members lack the DPS to defeat specific foes any other way.

---

tl;dr I don’t see an exploit, I’m 99% sure that ANet doesn’t either, and this has nothing to do with glass canon.

You could be right. It may be more gear-independent than I’m thinking. And, I like the term death-rush. It fits well with what I see as the problem.

The problem is that the meta for builds has leaned heavily towards maximizing damage. Couple that with the very-prevalent attitude that you should WP if you die (fighing a mob or boss), and it creates a problem (IMO).

Now, I used to argue the point a lot, but few were changing their minds, so I moved on. But, the recent change to incorporate reviving (along with healing, etc.) into items that tag an event changed the playing field. So, I thought I would broach the subject again.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Why would it be an exploit for a glass character to die, then WP and run back but, since you single out glass gear, it would presumably not be an exploit for a character geared differently?

Glass gear is what makes it viable. And, since a very large percentage of the population runs such gear, I’m not out in left field on this. I doubt many would admit it in the terminology I’m using, but it’s true nonetheless.

Personally, I never WP out, except at the Inquest Golem II. And I always revive or rally allies when I notice them, provided we’re not at a critical point in the battle (like the last 10 seconds).

Cameron.6450:

There’s also the fact that picking up ice bows and fiery greatswords is a lot more painful when there’s a bunch of dead bodies lying around that you might start ressing by accident.

People calling for dead to wp is simply just because people being dead on the ground are irritating to everyone still alive, and don’t contribute anything. Not because it’s an attempt to game the system in some way.

Most who do it claim it reduces the enemy’kitten points when the dead WP out. So, yes, they are indeed trying to game the system; they’ll even say so, sometimes quite loudly. They wouldn’t CALL it gaming the system, but that’s exactly what it is.

And, the glass cannon plays right into the model. Go in, do a large amount of damage, hoping to live by overwhelming the enemy. If there are enough doing high damage like that, it works. But, if the character does die, he just WPs, thus reducing the enemy’s HP. The claim is it happens in 2-3 seconds.

malachi.7503:

I’m confused, is your scenario meant to imply that when I die from a encounter I should lay there and wait around for someone to come revive me? My understanding is that when I die, that little message pops up and says “use waypoint” and I do. I play solo alot and do die occasionally, using a waypoint allows me to get back to playing the game.
Perhaps I’m not understanding what you are asking.
As to grouping, I’ve noticed that when we encounter various world mobs the waypoints near the mob are blocked for the duration of the encounter. If its a large group it does make sense to wait for revival, but in some cases to me it makes more sense to run back to the fight from waypoint rather than force group members to stop combat to help me up. Again though, perhaps I’m not understanding your question properly.

The strategy works solo by keeping the enemy count down. But, that’s just good playing, and a tank could do the same with larger groups; he would just take longer.

I’m thinking mostly of group events and boss fights.

slpr.2647:

this was put in because of the new healer classes. I myself run a Druid, and with my full druid setup, don’t do a lot of dmg, I try to keep ppl alive, either with heals or rez’s.
so they added the rewards for these classes so we still get credit

It doesn’t matter WHY it was put it. The point is that it favors reviving people. Before they did this, except in specialized content (like the raids and certain bosses), practically everybody runs some variant of a glass cannon.

Look at the threads on the classes where people ask what kind of build is good. Without exception, berserker is near the head of the pack – for all professions. Why? Because glass cannons WORK. And that’s my point.

TexZero.7910:

Since you think i’m treating you like an idiot for pointing out the obvious let me simplify it for you even more.

What gain is there for dying and running back. Each waypoint cost both time and money. Excessive waypointing can lead to cost above what you would potentially net from killing the boss or a lack of event credit. Therefore it cannot possibly be an exploit per definition of the word.

Again, you’re missing the whole point. Look above this post, and count how many people have said it’s a good idea. I’ve already said I don’t believe they are correct.

But the fact that that’s the way many people play makes glass cannons a legitimate build (to them). They hope they live, but if they don’t, no big loss. Just WP.

And, it’s a large majority of players who hold that position. So, if EVERYBODY runs a glass cannon, … well you figure it out.

Coulter.2315:

They are telling people who die to the boss not to wait for a res because its faster and safer for those that are fighting for the corpses to WP and respawn, they are not calling out parts of a exploiting strategy xD

I am genuinely shocked you couldn’t put this together with your own brain (like really shocked, astounded, flabbergasted, jaw-on-the-floor can’t believe it).

Way ahead of you, actually.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

moonstarmac.4603:

the way I got the dive was to stand on the ledge just below the goggles where you can still put them on…this allows you to get a better look at where you are jumping

Yes, that was it for me too. Stand on the little pipe just below the ‘cloud layer’.

Yes, this is basically the only way to do it for non-professionals. Ignore the videos and stay on that little pipe. You can view about half way around the mountain, so you can almost jump right towards it.

And, be a mesmer traveling with mesmers. You’re going to fall an ungodly number of times before you actually get the title.

Then, when you do, stay up there and earn a few gold. Make a portal, waypoint, run back in, and port other players for tips.

Ashen.2907:

When forum posters complained about players lying dead rather than waypointing Anet commented that their dynamic scaling paid attention to active participation, not just proximity to the encounter. Supposedly, dead and/or AFK characters do not continue to affect encounter scaling.

That may be (I actually believe you are correct).

The problem is the people who believe the opposite, and plan on waypointing out if they die. That’s what I’m calling an exploit.

Harper.4173:

1 person dies – and waypoints out – boss scales for 9 people.
The dead person comes back and resumes the fight – boss scales for 10 people again.

But, if 5 people die and WP out, they’ve done enough damage already that the boss dies quickly with the 5 remaining. THAT is the exploit. I’ve seen it happen more than once.

Seera.5916:

3. Prior to this patch, reviving someone did not count one bit towards participation and if the fight is quick enough stopping to revive someone could cost them participation, especially if the person who stops to revive the player arrived late or doesn’t do as much damage as the others around them. This isn’t as big of an issue now that they do allow for support to count toward participation.

Yes, and that’s exactly why I put forth the question.

Thanks, guys! Lots of good info.

Coulter.2315:

Wraith.3504:

Another point of contention is the grinding of materials, Mastery points, Hero points, sepcialization advancement, and other tedium.

You literally cannot grind the bolded things as you can only get them once… Where did you learn to use the word “grind?”

There are dozens of MPs and HPs. And since the process of attaining them can be considered repetitive, they indeed meet the definition of grinding.

I agree, though, with the poster above that HPs and specs are the same thing.

I like many of the changes, although I have yet to experience all of them.

One thing that needs addressing: the release notes say that you now get credit in events for “reviving” allies. Are you using “revive” generally, or specifically as separate from rallying allies?

There are also two major problems that I see in the game that aren’t addressed:

• XP for HoT masteries could be extended at least into the Silverwastes.
• Need a lobby in Verdant Brink for raiders. Right now, it skews the player counts for nearby events.

polarbear.2497:

I won’t treat you like an idiot, but I will agree with the people who say this is clearly not an exploit. It’s playing as the game was designed – it’s been this way since the beginning, and if it was not acceptable to the developers, something would have been done by now to prevent the behavior (such as preventing waypointing to nearby waypoints, for example).

Thank you.

But, they did. See my post above on the most recent balance update (giving credit for reviving people), plus another person’s post on ANet’s fix in dungeons (which prevents waypointing in combat).

I like the idea, and I also agree with Zoltar: use the background to mark them.

Neural.1824:

No, it’s not an exploit. Advantage? maybe. Exploit, no.

Just because someone else plays in a manner that you don’t approve of doesn’t mean it’s an exploit.
If it’s really about PvE (which I am questioning), you need to simply accept that there are game mechanics that don’t follow your own personal rules, but are just fine by Anets.

I used to think that to be the case. However, ANet, in the most recent patches, made reviving people in combat grant progress against that creature/event. So, clearly they are pointing people in the direction of “revive your allies”, rather than, “tell them to waypoint out and save us all the trouble of reviving them”.

Coulter.2315:

Did you just ask us not to argue with your premise? xD

You’ll need to explain how respawning and moving to where you died is an exploit a bit more..

Most people using high damage setups don’t use this “strategy,” for 1 it would require the mob to be near a WP, have a long duration Condition on it or be being attacked by multiple people. Also its just really inefficient.

I see it all the time. In almost every large battle, there’s always a few people saying, “fully dead: waypoint!”, frequently in all capital letters.

They do this because the claim is that the dead person counts against the scaling, but as soon as the dead person WPs out, the creature scales down to the now-smaller number of characters. IF they are correct, then we’re in what I call an exploit.

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

As it currently sits, GW2 (I’m only discussing PvE here) allows a glass-cannon strategy. What I mean by that is that you can put all your optional attribute points into things that do damage. Against smaller mobs, you end up killing the enemy before it can kill you. Against larger mobs, the character begins to have problems.

Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, dies, and then waypoints and runs back to combat to repeat the process.

IMO, this is an exploit. Do you agree? Why or why not? Also, if you agree, what should be done about it?

NOTE: Please don’t argue whether this actually works or not. Most everybody’s mind is already made up on that; that’s quite obvious from many other threads. Please stick with the more philosophical question of whether it SHOULD work or not.

Oh, and if you decide to take my counsel above:

To be fair to those who have already purchased more than one copper-fed, silver-fed, or whatever other infinite devices, perhaps you should make those able to be traded on the BLTP.

Gaile, if there’s any chance of getting more slots, I suggest the price of the 6th through 10th slots get progressively more expensive. I know I’ll buy more at almost any price, but I suspect I’m in the minority.

Additionally, this may even get me to purchase the infinite salvage kits and gathering implements. I never bought them before because it seemed like too many dollars having to buy them for all my characters. But, being able to buy one copper-fed instead of 9 would make it a much more intriguing proposition.

OK, thanks! I was thinking I had to have all the points in one infusion. I didn’t realize that they stack.

So, I can take the +10 I have and put it on a piece of armor. Then, when I get another one (from saving up +1s), I don’t have to pull off the 10 and up it to 11. I can just put it on another piece of armor/trinket. I get it!

I also found an article on the wiki that gives the details. (I searched for it before, but apparently wasn’t using the right keywords. Your posts helped me find it. THANKS!!!)

I find the new format of Fractals (one per, non-random ordering) to make them far more playable. However, in so doing I’ve managed to get to level 20, and I now have to start worrying about agony.

So, how bad IS agony? The wiki has recommendations for agony resistance that top out at 150. Considering the largest known is 21, that seems a bit excessive.

How do people survive at the higher levels?

You know, they could solve many of the gating issues by allowing XP earned in Maguuma Wastes count towards HoT masteries. And, a crossover like that makes sense, lore-wise.

There would still be a huge mapping problem, but if we could at least progress masteries, perhaps the mapping problem would solve itself.

As it is, I dread re-entering the HoT zones.

OK, I get it. Profane is for light, Krytan for medium, and primeval for heavy. I was thinking they were three each.

Thanks! That “check at the bank” tip was exactly what I needed.

Strange. None of my characters have access to any of the three styles, but I know I bought the higher-level versions of the game, so I should have already received one. Or, maybe I had it forever, but just never opened it.

Thanks!

I suppose that means I have to search under 3 characters (with the 3 armor weights). Let me check around my toons.

I have a heroic chest. Is there any way I can tell if I have already unlocked the Primeval, Krytan, and/or Profane armor skins?

Tapioca.9062:

On the subject of not reading, the post you just replied to is from three months ago and is referring to a problem that Anet have subsequently fixed. Almost everything in this thread has been dealt with close to a quarter of a year ago. It only got necroed because the recent patch undid something relating to this subject that it ought not have.

I JUST noticed that myself. Sorry for replying. I’ll stop now.

Scourge.4317:

Do NOT cave on Elite specializations. Everyone already gets access to the new weapon skills that can be used to further unlock the rest of the traits by PLAYING THE GAME. Unlocking your elite traits is no different than how you would progress new characters in other mmos. You get skills every other level by…PLAYING THE GAME. Just like in GW2 you get traits and skills by playing the game. You only need 40 HP…less if you prepared yourself for this expansion. Are you guys new to MMO’s? And once you unlock the mysteries needed to get to the HPs on your first character the rest of your characters won’t have to unlock anything.

GW1 was the same way. You had to go out and do quest to obtain skills or save all of your plat and buy your skills from a vendor. Everybody just wants to race strait to the end.

I think the people complaining the loudest about elite specs are pvpers. I can see their point. And, while I wouldn’t darken the door of pvp, there are many pvpers who think that’s all there is of value. So, gating pvpers for elite specs is, I feel a problem, even though it will never affect me.

Jordo.5913:

THANK YOU!!!

Now just fix the Elite Spec gating and the game will be golden!!!

No, they also need to make a way to figure out where you are on the difficult maps. Maybe make the mini-map 3 dimensional or something. I’ve been to 5 different levels at the exact place where the storyline star is on my map, and I still can’t get to it. All I know is it’s up.

ddoi.9264:

Er…what? There are 50 pages of complaints on that thread because you gated specialisations behind hero points for every single character we have. Not once have I heard anyone complain they couldn’t progress their story. This change solves nothing.

Then you are simply not reading.

Oh, another thing: allow Silverwastes and Dry Top XP to be used for HoT mastery progression. You might want to also include XP from any mordrem killed elsewhere in central Tyria.

NOTE: The player would have to choose which track the XP gets used in, Central Tyria or Maguuma.

This wouldn’t derail the story, because people would still be fighting Maguuma/dragon type bad guys. But, it certainly would help with having to plow through HoT just to move to the next step.

A good move, but I don’t think good enough.

How about making masteries a progression, where you could make partial progress and have it mean something? That could make it less of a brick wall and more like beach sand.

Picture this: you get credit for the mastery for gating purposes once you’ve pulled in some percentage of the XP. You would be required to have the mastery points available, but not actually get far enough to use them.

This would allow players to partially complete several masteries, thus no longer being blocked. But, they wouldn’t get the benefits until they complete it.

Some of the gates might require story changes, though. I’m not sure all of them could utilize such a feature. But, it would certainly help eliminate some more of the grindiness.

OK, I haven’t read it all, but yesterday I bought 5 of these. All I can say is it’s the best game investment I’ve ever made. I would buy 5 more if they offered them, and I would even pay a premium to buy them.

The only thing I would change is to allow me to move them around in the inventory window.

Alveda.8409:

Lots of casual guilds can’t pass Gorseval DPS check. Of course, an all welcome pug raid group would fill, but they probably can’t even phase Vale Guardian and repeatedly wipe on Green Circle. That was my experience of pugging raid for the first two weeks. Raid is not for casual. If you can’t bother to invest in full ascended character, no serious raid group will consider you. Casual raid group may, but you can enjoy your Gorseval wipe.

Sorry, I may have led you astray. I have 9 main characters, and 3 of them have all-ascended gear, and I’m working on two others.

I might raid some day, but it’s just not on the radar. But, other people do want to, and many are the situation you describe.

Vayne.8563:

Except casual guilds attempting to do them which accept less. If you insist on pugging you play by pug rules. If you run with a casual guild the rules change.

A lot of people start with ascended jewelry which is easy to get, and maybe ascended weapons. People in guilds. If you want to pug, you can always make your own pug group and say all welcome, no ascended required. I bet it fills.

I have no interest in raiding myself; I’m too casual to put up with the hardcores. I was speaking more generally, for people who might want to.

Two things: This discussion on the definitions is good. Perhaps we should start a new thread to discuss just that?

Second, I may have used the wrong name above. The map I had trouble with is the third one you get to in HoT. I’m not sure what the name is any more.

Coulter.2315:

By reading what you write, you can’t complain you can’t do anything AND not be terrible. Pick one.

I see your problem. I didn’t say “anything”. I said one very specific thing: finding my way through the map. Are you seriously saying that makes me the worst?