Guild Wars 2

there are healers in game if built for it, but people won’t because they want glass cannons

And 4k even in spvp isn’t really all that much.

Also when slotting its the equipments level not yours that is used (taken from the level requirement)

You cannot put the highest quality gem in a level 1 (or no level requirement) item.

So if a gem says req level 20 the item you want to place it on needs to have a level requirement of 20 or higher

hehe wonder how long before people jumping off high places and dieing start yelling “OP Thieves”

actually tarn you need laurels to get the ascended amulet, its the only way to get it and without it you can’t get enough AR to do higher level fractals

but my point is if you want to appease to the new players and the players that don’t want to learn then you have to nerf stealth to the point where it makes the profession you designed with it in mind impotent.

The choice comes down to having a stealth class in the full knowledge that unless you want them to be totally useless they WILL be powerful vs new players OR you scrap the entire stealth idea and redesign from scratch

the issue is still really the enemy not the thief, this is prevalent in every game that has stealth in it, stealth works best on new players who don’t know any better, this is why spys in TF2 can own entire servers of new people or why in starcraft 2 dark templars can win so many bronze level matches.

However as soon as you go against people who have learnt how it works it becomes almost a penalty because so much of that character is based around that one mechanic as soon as people learn it they can counter it with no danger hence spies in TF2 can barely get a kill or sap off in high level play, why dark templars are almost never used beyond silver league and why thieves aren’t that prevalent in “high level” play.

And you know what? They always nerf stealth repeatedly as well to appease the new players even if it makes the stealth classes totally impotent against people who actually know about it.

The options really come down to leaving stealth and allowing those that use it to be powerful against new players or remove stealth all together and remake the class as something else.

Because no matter what you do in between them it will always be either too potent against new players or totally impotent against everything else.

difference between balance changes and removing MF is that balance changes are done to things people can’t avoid simply by ignoring it and choosing their own teams.

Fortus.6175:

(1v1 and small skirmishes, we all know thieves need some help in WvW-long-range-AoE)

(thats sort of the point we can be very good at the few situations we excel at but in others we are far outclassed, just like every kitten class in the game, yet we get stuck with nerf after nerf because people refuse to accept things aren’t quite as powerful as it actually seems)

because there not leeching, they are still participating in the battle they are still playing there not just standing around or laying dead, sure they are not the most effective they could be but unless I specifically set up a group to be so why should I care?

Its not stopping me playing, not stopping me having fun playing my character and the content still gets done.

Sure theres a line, but just because theres a line doesn’t mean you get the right to alter the entire game and many many peoples set ups because of your own petty petty complaint.

Oh and for me, the line is people intentionally being harrasing and trying to ruin other people (may or may not even be myselfs) game time, which just so happens is what people complaining about something that in total makes not one bit of difference in a way that would change a lot of people gaming experience is.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Where other faults may be inexperience, ignorance, or poverty, and can be forgiven, selfishness cannot.

which is why you and the others who think they for some reason get to call on how people play a game cannot be forgiven.

If you don’t want to team with MF don’t team with them but you don’t get to decide how they can or can’t play attempting to do so is way more selfish.

my arguement is if MF is so bad then what do you want to do about people that don’t build in ways you feel is most effective? or people that aren’t as good?

If magic find is so bad then these other things people can do that can lower their potential much much more should also be complained about yes? but no you complain JUST about mf you think its the only cause of problems and that it exclusively should be changed and that its the only thing that effects fighting and only fighting matters in the game.

And the whole fact that you think you should get to govern what other people do in of itself is a major issue.

what I don’t get is why people think stealth has no counter, when it has plenty and is in fact basically the only thing that can be countered without using any skills at all.

It is not difficult to predict where thieves are when they stealth, coupled with its short duration you can feasibly know where they are at almost all times, what does that then give them? Only things they have to trait for, unlike other defensive skills which still give a mechanical effect be it damage reduction or such.

Sure its not feasible to always know where they are, in group battles it becomes a lot harder (which is really by design) but in 1v1 there’s almost no excuse to lose JUST because of stealth, in fact if you do it well enough stealth is actually more a weakness for them as while they are in it your still hitting them but their not hitting back.

only if they apply the same effort as those in MF, what if that person in full zerker is using only support utilities and weapon? what if they don’t avoid attacks the person in MF do?

They will end up doing less than someone in MF who knows what they are doing will do.

And stacking toughness doesn’t help people who don’t get hit survived so if they are long range and know how to dodge the big attacks how is it helping?

Your just a kitten selfish hypocrit simple as.

but that arguement could be used by anyone that doesnt approve of anything but the most efficient farm.

People stacking toughness? selfish because that doesn’t help them do anymore damage, doubly so if they aren’t actually getting hit at all etc etc

If anything that wasn’t the most efficient way to farm was changed or removed we would have nothing but warrior.

The fact that unless they tell you (and even then they could just troll) they are using MF gear theres no way to know, so it comes down to you beleiving your gameplay is being massively effected by something you can’t even be sure of.

So just no your a hypocritical kitten that believes anything that you don’t personally gain from should be changed or removed for your personal gain, you are thousands of times worse than anyone that wears magic find gear simply because your TRYING to actively control what other people do rather than just slightly slowing down the rate of a dungeon group (if that, people in full zerker doesn’t guarantee a faster run than people in MF)

well sorry but when people start using dps calculations as there proof that MF is making them fail at dungeons then you have to assume that DPS is purely what they want.

The fact is if I came into your team wearing nothing but MF gear it would have no noticeable effect on your own gameplay other than perhaps bosses taking slightly longer and if THAT is your concern then unless your a 100b warrior then your also guilty of the same thing just in a different way.

However the difference is people that decide they want to wear MF gear don’t decide that THEY get to determine how you play unlike all you people who seem to think MF gear is a massive insult to you and is ruining the game and making you fail everything to the point where it borders on harrasment.

pesky thieves and their lightning, fire and earth attacks eh? hate em >< funny how people do that constantly really.

As for the original post unless you give us more details we can’t really explain exactly, if they where using 2 daggers they’d either be heartseeking (no evasive so your attacks would have landed) deathblossomed (evasive but slow/short and costly not really spammable for long) or one of the many variants mentioned above.

Non of which are massively spammable with no drawbacks.

problem is thieves aren’t the only ones that get ignored, when it comes down to it most just want 5 warriors, not because everyone else is bad or lacks support but because they want to farm efficiently.

The fact that its seen that unless your as good as others are at their specific things the stuff we’re good at specifically doesn’t matter.

We can bring a lot of support if used right (not just situationally) and we can bring it mostly without sacrificing other things, yes guardians are best at giving boons does that mean anyone else should not bother using anything that gives boons? no it doesn’t.

Those that actively kick or leave teams that have thieves in are those that only want 5 warriors or some other dps only team formation, this does NOT mean thieves aren’t wanted what it means is that for farming people only want the 1 specific set up they deem best, this is not exclusive to thieves and is not a problem with thieves but rather a problem with pve and warriors 100b move.

If we change the thief to be the best dps then warriors will no longer be wanted if we make them the best overall support whoever people deem to be best support will no longer be wanted etc, if we change it so everyone is equally good at everything then everyone is the same profession.

There is no fix for people who think grinding loot is how you play the game and if you think thats how the game is meant to be played why would you roll a profession you already know isn’t the most efficient at what your aiming for?

I mean if thats all that really mattered there would be nothing but warriors in pve with maybe a few mesmer.

I’ve seen groups kick engineers more than I have seen them kick thieves, the simple fact is that any given class will be deemed not as good as another for some reason or other, the main complaint I see from people in teams about thieves is how many run full glass cannon and instantly die outside that I’ve never had a complaint about being a thief. Is that a problem with the profession? no its a problem with idiots who roll full glass cannon and then don’t dodge.

The other issue of course is people who read horror stories and believe its truth, someone told someone that a thief dies quickly and comes with no support and that person believed them without actually checking to see that thieves can come with a lot and can survive just as well if not better than others. (not helped at all that a lot of people roll thieves and think all they can do is high dps without actually thinking, why theres so many backstab/heartseeker only thieves around)

if dps and speed of kills is all thats important Im assuming everyone complaining about MF are 100b warriors?

If not then just like MF you need to be forced to change because DPS = everything yes?!

Well lets just put it like this:

You either think PvE content is something that should be done as fast as possible and thus anything outside pure dps is unwanted, at which point thief is fine you can pull good damage and are in the top group of damage classes.

Or you think PvE content should be enjoyed in specs you like playing and think support is a useful thing to have in PvE in which case thief is fine as they have a bunch of different ways they can build to support a team and can bring a fair bit to a group that others cannot (they may bring one or two aspects that a thief can but they can’t bring all of it in the same way a thief can bring something from other classes but not all)

If the complaint is that some professions are seen as the “best” at a specific thing (warriors best dps, guardians best boon givers etc) then what do you expect? everyone to be equal at everything? then whats the point in different professions?

Disclaimer: This does not mean I don’t beleive there are things that aren’t quite right with thieves or that I think we are gods that need no improvements, it means that I don’t beleive we are “a joke” in either aspect like some people beleive.

Problem is no matter what change you make, if you cannot complete it in the 24 hours your given you will still miss out.

If your constantly missing it by a slim margin and you cannot work out how to get it done over the 24 hours your most likely only getting a very short time to play and thats over halfway over the reset time…

So unless you only get 1 hour a day to play and the reset is in the middle and you absolutely cannot get another minute or so at the start or end to ensure you get the daily done before you log then your never going to get it.

Sifu.6527:

Dasorine.1964:

Aegis = Stops 1 hit on you, generally not applyable that often

Blind = Stops 1 hit from the boss, reapplyable almost constantly.

Not sure how aegis is better…

Please do the following.

Look at the champ boss.

LOOK and READ the buffs that the boss have.

Proceed to /facepalm

10% efficiency doesnt mean it doesnt still block a bosses attack, just means it only blocks 1 in 10, considering you can keep blind up permenately if you wanted thats 10% less damage statistically, how often can you get aegis up hmm?

And thats only statistically depending on luck it could still work every time.

one 4s bleed every half second means at base you can maintain 7-8 bleeds with Auto attacks, with sneak attack being five 4s bleeds every 4.5 seconds you don’t really keep many bleeds on with that.

It has its uses but for my playstyle it doesn’t fit and its not really faster just cheaper

randomfightfan.4091:

Dasorine.1964:

randomfightfan.4091:

Dasorine.1964:

randomfightfan.4091:

That’s when people start seeing the thief doing nothing but stacking bleeds at ranged (stacks faster and cheaper than daggers) and immediately jump to the conclusion that they’re pvp thieves with no reason to be in pve.

Curious as to this part cheaper certainly, faster? I question that.

5 stacks for 4s instantly every time you shoot from stealth at the cost of no ini but the cnd. Passive bleeds on your aa for 4s. So you SHOULD be able to maintain 10+ stacks of bleed during the entire fight without the help of sigils or caltops or anything. Benefited by haste.

Death blossom is 3 stacks for 10s with no where else to get your stacks and at the cost of 5 ini and is harder to land against a moving target. This means you can maintain about 6 stacks at all times. NOT benefited by haste.

can’t really ignore the CnD cost which is higher than deathblossom and gives you a 3 a 3 second cooldown meaning you can apply 5 stacks for 4 seconds every 3-4 seconds meaning you won’t really keep many stacks on for very long.

It would even out if it wasn’t for the long duration of the deathblossom bleeds in 10 seconds you will regen at least 7 initiative so you can easily maintain your stacks, throw in any extra initiative gains (or max init) and you can keep just as much on and such.

Personally I’ve tried using pistol for bleed stacking but found I wasn’t hitting the 25 stacks I am with d/d and with a bit less options that fit my style.

Plus no poison without switching weapons

I think you’re confusing CnD with backstab. It doesn’t matter where you land the CnD, it will give you invis. You will have to be in generally the same range as death blossom as you would to land CnD. Also with traited gain 2 ini on invis, it’s only 4 ini cost… and that ini WILL regenerate in the time it’s ready to be cast again.

the sneak attack that applys the 3 second cooldown still, my point still stands though cheaper sure, faster? not really and definitely not as easy to keep up.

if the person being attacked is being one shot by the bosses normal attacks you have bigger issues than weakness only effecting 1/2 the hits.

Heck if there getting 1 shot by the bosses special attacks you STILL have bigger issues than weakness only affecting 1/2 the hits

Zepidel.5349:

Dasorine.1964:

Panacea why do you think blind is useless vs boss?

because bosses are for the most part 99% im guessing completely and uterrly immune to blinds.

since when exactly? unshakeable makes it 10% effective thats not immunity and considering a thief if they want can keep it up permenately its still a fair effect.

Panacea why do you think blind is useless vs boss? And weakness? because the person getting hit wont be glad of taking less damage right?

and saying those armours are useless because you don’t want to get hit… what about the person who is actually getting hit and is the one actually getting these buffs?

randomfightfan.4091:

Dasorine.1964:

randomfightfan.4091:

That’s when people start seeing the thief doing nothing but stacking bleeds at ranged (stacks faster and cheaper than daggers) and immediately jump to the conclusion that they’re pvp thieves with no reason to be in pve.

Curious as to this part cheaper certainly, faster? I question that.

5 stacks for 4s instantly every time you shoot from stealth at the cost of no ini but the cnd. Passive bleeds on your aa for 4s. So you SHOULD be able to maintain 10+ stacks of bleed during the entire fight without the help of sigils or caltops or anything. Benefited by haste.

Death blossom is 3 stacks for 10s with no where else to get your stacks and at the cost of 5 ini and is harder to land against a moving target. This means you can maintain about 6 stacks at all times. NOT benefited by haste.

can’t really ignore the CnD cost which is higher than deathblossom and gives you a 3 a 3 second cooldown meaning you can apply 5 stacks for 4 seconds every 3-4 seconds meaning you won’t really keep many stacks on for very long.

It would even out if it wasn’t for the long duration of the deathblossom bleeds in 10 seconds you will regen at least 7 initiative so you can easily maintain your stacks, throw in any extra initiative gains (or max init) and you can keep just as much on and such.

Personally I’ve tried using pistol for bleed stacking but found I wasn’t hitting the 25 stacks I am with d/d and with a bit less options that fit my style.

Plus no poison without switching weapons

not sure how flooding the market would make them.. unobtainable?

And yeah its all about finding the balance, I just don’t really think 500 would be that balance any more than 60 would

randomfightfan.4091:

That’s when people start seeing the thief doing nothing but stacking bleeds at ranged (stacks faster and cheaper than daggers) and immediately jump to the conclusion that they’re pvp thieves with no reason to be in pve.

Curious as to this part cheaper certainly, faster? I question that.

yet your stance of anything but zerker gtfo is not about thief pve, nor is it really about anything but your own stance that farming is the only reason pve exists.

The thread is about how some people don’t realize that thieves aren’t just pure damage, the fact that they can be full zerker and still have a lot of support without dps sacrifice is just another example.

evilapprentice.6379:

Kind of true, but since ANets position is “Stealth should always result in a revealed debuff”, it’s understandable – they’re trying to narrow down the use cases for stealth – you use it knowing you’ll get the revealed debuff, so you’re either going for the kill, or really need to escape/access something in your SA’s tree. You’re still in control of those uses of stealth, you make the decision of whether its worth it or not.

Unfortunately thats basically them saying “we don’t want thieves to be flexible”. If its used defensively its the only defensive skill that if you have multiple utilities for is punished if try to use them too often.

Tbh overall I’m not really sure anet really puts much thought into many of their changes, so many new content and other changes have been poor at best and never fully thought through. This is just another example.

Zepidel.5349:

Dasorine.1964:

Zepidel.5349:

randomfightfan.4091:

Zepidel.5349:

Dasorine.1964:

Zepidel.5349:

>Blind = Stops 1 hit from the boss, reapplyable almost constantly.

hehehe boy are you in for a suprise

Ok so some attacks aren’t forces to miss but unless something’s been added since I last used blind its still constantly applyable and still causes a missed attack,

if this were true you’d see alot more….

$$$$$$$ LF 1 mes 1 thief (bring blinds) and 3 $$$$ZERKER WARRIORS$$$$$$ GEAR CHECK EXIOTIC ZERKER GEAR ONLY $$$$$$$$$ MONEY RUNS ALL DAY LONG$$$$$$

You thought thieves were useless (and might still do) until you saw some of the info in this thread. The people with the posts that don’t say need 1 thief are the kind of people who don’t know any better

Read my 1st post in this thread even tho its written sarcastically you should at least understand it. People do not care for blinds weakness or poison becuase without those things they can still faceroll the dungeon no problem. Its all about getting it done asap and warriors + mes does it best. A zerker d/d thief will do damage on par with warrior BUT from my expierence in dungeons most thieves are too bad/scared to run that build and try the “support” builds that really add nothing to the group besides kitten dps.

That could be said about every class though, unless they go full zerker they only bring in stuff that isn’t full zerker dps.

now you are getting it m8. zerker is the only thing people want in pve.

which really has no real bearing on a conversation about thief pve utility

As for the combofinishing debate it basically comes down to thieves have great finishers but not many initiators so we generally rely on others or consumables for them and they get overwritten etc

The whole point of combos is to reward those that actually work together to get the best buffs, if a team is overwriting combofields and not paying attention its intentional that they don’t get the benefits.

Zepidel.5349:

randomfightfan.4091:

Zepidel.5349:

Dasorine.1964:

Zepidel.5349:

>Blind = Stops 1 hit from the boss, reapplyable almost constantly.

hehehe boy are you in for a suprise

Ok so some attacks aren’t forces to miss but unless something’s been added since I last used blind its still constantly applyable and still causes a missed attack,

if this were true you’d see alot more….

$$$$$$$ LF 1 mes 1 thief (bring blinds) and 3 $$$$ZERKER WARRIORS$$$$$$ GEAR CHECK EXIOTIC ZERKER GEAR ONLY $$$$$$$$$ MONEY RUNS ALL DAY LONG$$$$$$

You thought thieves were useless (and might still do) until you saw some of the info in this thread. The people with the posts that don’t say need 1 thief are the kind of people who don’t know any better

Read my 1st post in this thread even tho its written sarcastically you should at least understand it. People do not care for blinds weakness or poison becuase without those things they can still faceroll the dungeon no problem. Its all about getting it done asap and warriors + mes does it best. A zerker d/d thief will do damage on par with warrior BUT from my expierence in dungeons most thieves are too bad/scared to run that build and try the “support” builds that really add nothing to the group besides kitten dps.

That could be said about every class though, unless they go full zerker they only bring in stuff that isn’t full zerker dps.

I suspect it probably resets at same time as daily does.

evilapprentice.6379:

The only thing I’ve yet to see someone mention in regards to this change (and maybe I’ve just missed it) is now stealth is the only positive “buff” style effect that carries a negative consequence when applied automatically/through no action of the player.

If a target is given regen,stability,vigor,retal,might,fury,swiftness,protection or haste by a secondary means that they did not choose to initiate (another player, a combo field, etc), there is no downside. Now, every time a thief is granted stealth (smoke field AoE, mass invis, blinding powder, last refuge, instinctual response), they are going to take revealed – meaning if I’m too close to another thief using blinding powder, he might have screwed me by giving me stealth when I specifically didn’t want/need it.

Instinctual response becomes nearly worthless IMO (if I’m taking revealed for every stealth, I’m not interested in any stealth effect I don’t willingly initiate), and last refuge (a source of much frustration for thieves atm, since it sucks,can’t be turned off, and is at the very beginning of our best defensive trait line) gets even worse

It’s not the biggest deal in the world, and probably won’t come up so often (though I foresee that when it does happen to screw you, you will be annoyed), but its important to note – stealth is now the only buff in the game that carries a downside in situations where the player did not willingly apply it – that seems a dirty way to fix stealth spammers IMO. An easy fix (conceptually, maybe not programming wise) would be to cause stealth effects applied automatically (Instinctual response, Last refuge) or by another player (mass invis, AoE in a smoke field, etc) to not carry the revealed penalty if no ability is used.

Its also the only buff that penalizes you for having multiple utilities giving it equiped.

Phira.3970:

So if everyone had MF berserker gear rather than full berserker gear, according to the math above, they’d down the boss about 31% slower. Okay, that’s only a slight difference. Gotcha!

Uhuh and what about if one of those full beserker group dies what effect will that have on the speed? what if someone joined in full healer gear, what if people decided they wanted to play a build that isn’t optimal

Should we change all these circumstances because they slow down combat?

Simply put people can play the way they want, you don’t like it? tough, you don’t get to decide how others choose to play the game unless they are directly harrasing you, if you don’t like it leave.

by daily I mean the daily 60 tokens by path.

The main issue here really comes down to the TP, the TP is technically not a method of aquisition, those lodestones came from the same places other lodestones came from drops and chests, if you utilize the TP as a form of acquisition and theres no one farming them to put there just to make the money you soon have none there.

Personally I would say 180 tokens for a lodestone, thats 1 characters daily path tokens for 1 lodestone which is still a painfully low drop rate, however 500 just makes no sense even if you do calculate regular drop rates/chest rates and then bulk it up with TP buying your still saying that 1 lodestone which you need (outside of rune/sigil recipes) a minimum of 100 of is equivilent to a gift that you only need 1 of.

The only reason I can see for putting it that high is to keep the price on the TP high and to limit people that only get to play a short while a day (enough to get 3 daily paths done) from getting them easily.

not really you can farm gold and legendaries just doing the easiest dungeons in the game and FoTM you can technically be carried to.

The stat difference is NOT significant because it makes NO difference in wether you can down a boss or not, at best its a slight speed increase.

no you wouldn’t because when it comes down to it you don’t need it just like you don’t need aegis, protection or anything really you can run with full glass cannons and use no defensive skills and still complete dungeons.

Zepidel.5349:

>Blind = Stops 1 hit from the boss, reapplyable almost constantly.

hehehe boy are you in for a suprise

Ok so some attacks aren’t forces to miss but unless something’s been added since I last used blind its still constantly applyable and still causes a missed attack,

yep people will still stand around after seeing a thief stealth and not do anything and then complain its OP

Aegis = Stops 1 hit on you, generally not applyable that often

Blind = Stops 1 hit from the boss, reapplyable almost constantly.

Not sure how aegis is better…

omg all these selfish people!

They demand you play exactly how THEY want you to play and think if you don’t then its your fault that they aren’t accomplishing their goal rather then their own lack.

If you REALLY think that its people in MF armour that is causing you to loose then you are never going to succeed.

Yes someone in MF armour will have less power, so will someone in healing gear does that mean people in healing gear should get kittened at aswell?

The stat difference is, overall, insignificant, you can do all but the higher fractals with a team full of MF users, will it be as fast as a full zerker team? No, but the point is its still perfectly doable, if they are actively failing its not because there missing some power but because they aren’t paying attention to the mechanics.

Simple fact is people that are demanding MF removed or complaining people in MF are making them fail at dungeons are MORE selfish than those that run MF as they (you) are actively trying to dictate how other people should play for your own personal ideas of gain.

Will anything I just said change your mind? Probably not, because your a kitten whinger whos self entitled and think your the last word on how games should work.

they do drop from mobs, but as I’ve said I’ve done many dungeons, looking at just the type that I have the most I’ve obtained a total of 1 lodestone and 10 cores for that type, maybe im just really really unlucky?

And sure I could just farm cash for TP however the whole point of alternative ways to aquire is so you don’t have to just farm gold and buy off people who are much luckier than you.

The problem with saying that it would only take a month between (your) drop rate and TP is that it means that you have to utilize that function, sure you can’t just ignore TP but when factoring in drop rates you can’t say “oh its ok because theres a bunch on the TP” because at some point that sort of thing will end up at the point where only a few dedicated farmers would actually be getting them as everyone else will be on “TP farming”

If your going to put another form of acquisition for something in the game it has to stand on its OWN merits it cannot be balanced around the fact that other people get lucky or you might get lucky.

Chances are someone could start farming and if they were really lucky get as many lodestones as they need in 1-2 days this doesn’t mean drop rates or other aquisition methods should be nerfed.

If they put lodestones in dungeon vendors they’d have to put them at a price where if you where JUST getting them from there that it would take a reasonable amount of time to aquire the amounts needed JUST from that. 500 tokens would as said previously require upto 2 years farming if you have 1 character to get enough for the more expensive recipes at an average gaming amount, that is NOT a reasonable amount of time for an acquisition method.

Hell even if they where 60 tokens each your still looking at 3-4 months if you JUST got them from there with 1 character using dailys. That would be a much more valid alternative aquisition method because while individually it would take a fair while it would a) not overshadow other ways to obtain them b) still give a decent return rate.

Not that im saying 60 would be a good rate, even I think that would be too low, but you cannot go 500 would be ok because you can get them other ways thats not how balancing it works specially not when your trying to make it available to average gamers that don’t have time to spend farming in ways others can.

If they used that method the laurel costs would be MUCH higher.

first of all this isn’t all about legendaries.

other than that your still putting the price of something you need many of for the same price that in the same recipe you only need 1 of, even if your lucky and getting as many as you are from farming (honestly I’ve done several days of farming in full MF and omnom etc and not seen a single lodestone drop) you still saying that if you don’t want to grind endlessly it should take you several years to get just 1 component of something.

500 just isn’t a realistic token value for something you will need so many of even if you do buy them and get lucky with farming.

The only reason that a 500 token cost would be valid is if it was determined that their price on the TP had to be unaffected as much as possible, at which point you may as well just scrap putting in alternative lodestone acquisition options in total.

Silver.4798:

@Randomfightfan if u can spam clusterbombs for 3-4k a pop in an AoE I would like to know ur secret. Im serious.

Heres the secret, equip shortbow, press 2, click area filled with enemies, bang high damage aoe.

I hit for 2k clusters on my condition build thief… 3-4k should be easy for a power spec specially if they burst it at the right time for that little extra damage thats without any bleed damage added in (though cluster bomb bleeds even on a high condition spec is rather insignificant)

Technically we can’t really be sure of anything yet, we don’t know the entire changes yet, chances are though if your backstabbing often then it won’t effect you.

But who knows they could also be nerfing combo field abuse (which I think is much more exploitative than CnD spam though both are a rather unacceptable)

So funny, thieves are generally fine in PvE, utilized right they can bring just as much to a group as any class can.

The problem is people see a thief in their group and immediately jump to the conclusion there some sort of terrible zerker BS thief that doesn’t know how to dodge roll at all.

If a thief is dieing instantly in a stiff breeze then a) they are most likely specced wrong and b) they didn’t dodge the stiff breeze.

Do I occasionally get gibbed quickly? Yes but so does that guardian who’s basically done nothing all dungeon because he’s “omg the best support” so he feels he doesn’t actually have to do anything but auto attack because he cures conditions every 10 seconds (i’ve seen this happen..)

Fact is with all the different builds available you cannot just blanket the entire class with the good or bad sticker, there are and always will be terrible thieves that think the class is JUST about high burst damage and has nothing else just like you have GC warriors that will run in to 100blade and then die because he ran in solo thinking he’s a god.

I personally tend to hit the higher damage of the group (occasionally knocked from the top spot by pure GC builds) while also keeping my movement up so as not to die and supporting team with both agro management (stealthing squishies under attack enough to allow aggro to peel off.. usually onto myself), healing, defenses via blind, pulling and positioning, ccing, comboing etc etc.

the fact is the TP does exist, there are generally set values for certain fairly common loots that can make a reasonable profit, and then EVEN IF YOU SOMEHOW DIDNT WANT TO USE THE TP BECAUSE YOU FOR SOME REASON DON’T WANT TO USE ALL THE STUFF IN THE GAME.

NPC’s offer enough cash for a decent haul of loot to offset the miniscule WP costs, your entire complaint was that they didn’t which means either your WPing around a lot or just not getting much loot between them, both of which are your problems not the games, when a couple of blues can offset the cost of travelling halfway across the world if sold to a vendor then I think its fine.

Also I never said raise the WP for farmers, just in general, the costs of WP across the entire world is neglible already.

problem is these alternative methods aren’t guaranteed either, I’ve farmed all sorts of dungeons and fractals and I can count how many lodestones I’ve found on 1 hand and how many cores I’ve found on 2, considering how long I’ve been playing if I kept farming like this even with 1 every 500 dungeon tokens it would still take me over a year to get it.

I know your trying to preserve the value of them but maybe thats the wrong way to go about it, they are generally far to rare currently there like the precursor of the crafting mat world, it shouldn’t take an average player months of grinding just to see 1 drop.

As you say other things take a bit longer via alternate methods however they don’t take a year to do nor do their base aquire take so long either.

Sure it can all be sped up if you have multiple characters or sit down and do some hardcore farming but you cannot balance rates around that sort of thing because that doesn’t work for the average player.