Guild Wars 2

You all forget we have an awesome 1200 range utility attack! Scorpion wire! /sarcasm (and Im one of those thieves that actually gets decent use out of it)

Wouldn’t say no to at least 1 quick 1200 range attack at least but can’t see it happening any time soon not with all the complaints by WvW fodder.

well if your really wanting to level fast in WvW your really looking at a good zerger with some good AoE, necro or ele would seem to be best in those cases.

Thief probably not so good, sure you get the escape mechanisms but you pay for it with not actually being able to do much other than support and tagging, your not really going to be able to roam after soloers (the place thief is best at) as an uplevel and your not going to bring much to a zerg until higher level (outside of clusterbomb spam) and of course an uplevel thief has the least defenses of any uplevel meaning you’ll just melt unless you get in stealth (and hope the enemy is one of those people that stops attacking you the moment you do)

basilisk venom only underwater elite

I honestly just avoid underwater combat as much as possible, far to many of the thief utilities don’t work there, or resign myself to just spear #3 constantly and hoping for the best.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_

Basically its an old old term came about when people started comparing changes to say a weapon getting its damage toned down to it being replaced by a nerf bat (soft foam weapons ftw)

D/D for aoe and easy to hybrid condition build.

P/D for single target dedicated condition build.

well with the rest of your build and your lower rate of stealth use your both most likely not going to have to worry too much about conditions and would get more use out of the mug’s combat mobility over going 10 in SA

PhelanDisturbed.1650:

That was my intention. Once I learn to play better start dropping some stuff for more power.

Thanks for your help! Tbh I expected troll responses. Your a true asset to the thief community.

Oh right sorry…. Lolz full zerker nub! there you go

well with an effective 5k power you should do fine, 3700-4100 is the “this is ridiculous and requires silly circumstances but is still technically possible” level of high.

I’d think most “power” builds would probably run more around the 3k-3.5k mark without outside help/perfect circumstances and dont forget those levels will be at the cost else where.

Your levels sound about right for overall balanced but as you play you might get to the point where your finding you can shift the points one way or the other.

well the extreme low would be the base levels:

10k HP
916 power
916 toughness etc

High health for a thief would probably be around the 20k mark, high power would be the high 3k – low 4k mark etc etc

of course it all depends on what your actually working towards but overall I’d say anything less than 50% more than base is looking to be on the “low side” (possibly upto 100% more than base stats for something like power)

of course thats my own personal opinion and of course its all relative 2k power is low if your doing a power build but high if your doing a condition build for example.

as others have said you’ll have to look for condition removal skills and effects, most (if not all) professions will have access to a heal skill that removes conditions in some way then there are usually a number of utility slot skills that will do the same. You’ll want to look for anything that states it cures a condition or cures specifically burn if its fire your having issues with.

Unfortunately I’ve yet to see a good mmorpg put in mechanics such as “jumping into water puts out fire” heck most of the time you can still use fire in water (guardians for example get underwater skills that set things on fire)

yeah practiced tolerance is fairly limited due to working off base precision only, signets of power or signet use would be good alternatives.

Signets of power for ArtC’s reasoning, signet use because it works well with signet of agility, not only do you get to use the signet more (so more team condition removal and team endurance refill thus more dodges) but also gives it the added effect of restoring some initiative as well (which with S/D can mean more boon stealing or more condition clearing)

as long as the level of the item matches the level requirement of the rune/gem/orb/crest etc its fine.

As astral says check the rune for the level and the level of the item is the level it requires to wear it.

well without going for stealth removal or switching heals (which wouldn’t really solve the problem just trade 3 conditions for a different 3 conditions but with a longer cooldown) your basically looking at liberal use of shadow step utility, infiltrators strike (sword #2) and possibly look into slotting in signet of agility in combat instead of signet of shadows(arguably a better choice for a high evasion build anyway as swiftness on dodge overwrites the signet of shadows run buff while signet of agility is a full endurance bar fill).

Though lyssa runes could be a good idea, the Air isn’t really going to be helpful as while the swiftness duration and such is nice the nuke when you get hit is counter productive to the thief “don’t get hit else you break apart like wet paper” style.

that said you should ideally be using stealth at least a little bit anyway due to it being a good portion of a thief’s defense (not to mention tactical strike can be nice) even if your rolling primarily evasion for you defense, making it a question of whether conditions become enough issue that you have to get the best condition removal you can or whether you can hold off for mugs healing, mobility and utility.

I think when my character dies everyone on the server should die too!

bmabrey.7859:

A good first step would be to not let them stealth up while they are being hit, have to be out of combat.

Which is about as far away from what they wanted the thief and designed it to be as you could get without just removing stealth all together. (akin to asking that elementalists should only be able to use 1 element during combat)

I’ve seen it in one or two games, its a novelty at best, often becomes a nuisance with people being able to spam it.

More often than not it rapidly becomes left behind as people that are interested in communicating properly use the dedicated voice chat programs that are often always much better quality.

the satchels are recipes gotten by using the mystic forge.

The satchels themselves are made by using basically the same amount of materials as crafting each individual piece of the set but all in one go (so easier to sell)

So unless your going to be making many sets your actually going to be better off crafting them normally one piece at a time, though unlike other inscriptions you do not have to buy the recipe you automatically learn it as you get to the level you can use it at (like how you learn to refine things automatically)

Demented Lemur.7861:

Well I’m not saying that it needs to be nerfed or anything like that Im just saying it far too common and I ’d like to see a bit more diversity not specifically thief but all classes in general I find its just too predictable to guess what a class is going to run which essentially makes the game slightly boring and I find there are many different viable builds out there maybe this is a balancing issue I dont know all Im saying is it make the game more intresting to see other builds being used

They are trying to do it but it takes time to do so, I mean since last patch theres a much better chance of seeing a S/D thief now due to flanking strikes fixes and buffs, they are also boosting up other things like warrior banners a few patches ago, signets this patch etc.

Just a shame they always seem to end up nerfing other things into obscurity at the same time.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Dasorine.1964:

Yes you will, condition duration sigils stack.

You can also use 2 on-kill sigils at the same time to get 2 stacks per kill instead of 1 (as long as they are stacking the same effect and of the same power)

Oh. Huh, so condition duration stacks with itself but the other permanent buff sigils don’t. Didn’t see that part. Sorry about that one then.

Yeah I missed it first as well.

It comes with them seeming like the same thing (both sets are permanent increases to a certain thing) but end up actually being separate and really quite different. Strange how Anet does that on things.

It comes down to backstab being the highest usable damaging hit we have (technically Pistol whip comes to more damage IF you hit with all hits but thats still over a protracted period of time)

When your in a situation where burst is king like PvP you want to utilize as many fast big hit moves as you can otherwise you leave yourself to being left impotent against people that outlast you, for a thief this generally means either running a backstab build or using hit and run builds/resetting fights/hiding and waiting for best opportunity to kill someone etc all of which are essentially complained about endlessly by other classes who generally end up doing similiar things but in a less obvious manner but with the aid of being overall stronger/more flexible.

And other said, your going to see people running the few “top” builds of any class because otherwise your essentially making yourself a free kill, and it will always be this way unless they somehow gloriously manage to make all skills actual choices.

you have to refine 2 Rawhide Leather Sections to make one stretched leather square, the rawhide leather sections can be gained from salvaging low level leather items such as medium armour or leather salvage items (occasionally from other items too), from certain creatures (boars, bears etc), bags dropped by certain enemies (bandits, centaurs etc)

For wayfairer foothills I think the best chances would be killing sons of svanir for tiny icy bags that have a chance to contain the rawhide. Possibly grawl as well.

Yes you will, condition duration sigils stack.

You can also use 2 on-kill sigils at the same time to get 2 stacks per kill instead of 1 (as long as they are stacking the same effect and of the same power)

gimmethegepgun.1284:

swinsk.6410:

Your thread is misleading.

The title should be “Thief getting blocked in stealth and not getting revealed”

Which is how the game has been since beta. I prefer it this way. As a warrior if you wait until like 2s after a thief stealth and then hit the block button, you will cause them to come our of stealth. Then dodge the cnd or cc them to get some hits in.

Whenever I play as a non thief, stealth has never been a problem for me.

L2p.

It’s not a l2 kitten ue, it’s an issue that thief is able to ignore some forms of counterplay because of a bad mechanic. Which is further supported by the fact that a large number of other limited-hit-count sigils/skills were changed to lose hits when they fail due to counterplay.

Wasn’t that change actually to fix a bug of them fading on any cast regardless of there being a target around? I seem to recall a discussion about that back then.

They already faded on the block etc the patch just made sure it was only in all those circumstances it worked rather than complete misses as well… so they werent changed for that functionality specifically as they already had it.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Dasorine.1964:

Yamsandjams.3267:

In a similar vien, it is also worth mentioning that you can HS someone through BP and still stealth even though you damaged them. This is inconsistent with how other abilities interact with stealth combos, such as engineers using acid bomb in a smoke field. A different rule is applied to the engineer’s case than in the thief’s case.

Actually thats exactly how it works with all other leap finishers, you land the finisher (damage and all) you then get the stealth.

The one exception is engineers leap finisher “Jump Shot” because it applies it after the first hit rather than after the second meaning you get stealth at the start of the jump and if you land and damage someone it reveals you.

In the same way with acid bomb you get the stealth after the damage however you’ve then just put a damaging pool down, one tick from that on something and you get revealed.

That’s true. I suppose this is a more engineer-related issue.

Although, will a thief still enter stealth if they point-blank someone with a cluster bomb in a smoke field? I’m not sure if it for some reason works differently with a blast finisher or not.

Not with cluster bomb no, you’d think it would for the same reason leap finishers do but only some blast finishers would work (for example in this case engineers with shockwave/turret detonation/thumper turret overcharge will work)

Possibly its ranged blast vs pbaoe blasts or such, ranged ones being more “support” than “zomg rush in and blast em ina face” but I’d have to test more which is hard as only really engi and thieves can test solo and thieves only have that 1 blast finisher.

Yamsandjams.3267:

In a similar vien, it is also worth mentioning that you can HS someone through BP and still stealth even though you damaged them. This is inconsistent with how other abilities interact with stealth combos, such as engineers using acid bomb in a smoke field. A different rule is applied to the engineer’s case than in the thief’s case.

Actually thats exactly how it works with all other leap finishers, you land the finisher (damage and all) you then get the stealth.

The one exception is engineers leap finisher “Jump Shot” because it applies it after the first hit rather than after the second meaning you get stealth at the start of the jump and if you land and damage someone it reveals you.

In the same way with acid bomb you get the stealth after the damage however you’ve then just put a damaging pool down, one tick from that on something and you get revealed.

Its not thieves using a different rule, its thieves using skills designed to function with those rules and understanding how they work (aka not trying to stealth with a multi hit skill)

Pip.2094:

@NinjaEd.
Kill pet, and Ranger hasn’t it anymore. Every profession has some “Jolly” skills or NPCs to rely on, yet these all can be made pointless by other players, while there is no help against Stealth.

while there is no help against Stealth…. other than hitting them…

Those skills that have buttons that counter them have it because otherwise those skills wouldn’t have any way to counter them, stealth is already countered by player experience and even at times pure dumb luck, sure its not the “lol I remove your buff and now the fights back to me being generally stronger than you in most ways” but it also doesn’t require a specific build to do so or generally any changes in your character other than how you play vs them

That is basically the whole reason why thieves are really strong in hotjoin and stomping news and uplevels in WvW but in high level tournement play and big zerg battles they become one of the weaker.

Professor Sensei.2941:

Grimwolf.7163:

Auesis.7301:

Assassin, no contest. As soon as Flashing Blades pops, the fight is over.

I was gonna say the same thing. Flashing Blades would end any Thief.
Thieves win in style though. Party Rock dance plus actual clothes instead of the bladed latex S/M suits.

you realize the dance is done by race and not by profession?

Then the question is what breed thief beats the assassin dance?

Also gotta love the thief forums sometimes, a thinly veiled whine thread about thief becomes a dance vs dance conversation ><

PopeUrban.2578:

Dasorine.1964:

(hmm should I take pistol whip or should I take “slashyshooty” which of these would work best)

• SlashyShooty
  The One In the Middle, SharpyThing/ The One That Makes Bullets
  Cut your opponent with a sharp thing, makin’ him slow and junk, then do that one where you get blurry and like kuh-bam a couple times on the no-look direction to hit multiple dudes. Sometimes it makes hearts over other dude’s heads when you use it.

precisely, a good alternative! :P

High damage profession with access to good defense vs High damage profession without access to good defense… hmmm…

Assassin wins unless they stand around derping the moment the thief goes invisible.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That formula can’t be right.

It would take 3250 Power to reach the 400 max (using the .0233 multiplier) and 4300 Power to hit the cap of 425.

How in the world can you get 4300 Power?

Full ’zerker + food + might only gives roughly around 3400-3500.

if it is a cap I suspect that might be the point, pre-update thieves could hit the cap and lose out, now even full power build in optimal conditions is only looking at around the 4100 mark while running a fairly unfeasible build with a very specific conditions.

Though we still don’t really know if its a cap or not.

The issue with that humorless is that even full tank spec thieves margin is much lower than others without utlizing that evasion/blind etc so while you do get to take a bit longer over doing so your sustainable face tanking time is still incredibly low.

At least unless your playing boon stealer

well AoE immobilizes already exist upto I think around 3 second unbuffed durations, but yeah the whole point would be the downsides would balance it out and there would be other balances within the mechanics (such as possibly increasing the immob time but lowering pulse rate to allow for easier cleanse and roll out etc)

Currently traps just aren’t that strong they seem to have a strange mix of balancing, I mean the effects each do tend to be on par of what other people can achieve with AoE variants including cooldowns and such but they are all single use single target.

Its perfectly feasible that they’d be able to be increased upto levels to match at least the other sets of traps and such and I see no real problem with them being able to be made equal to other skills that do similar effects other than the effort it would require on Anets side to do something truly positive for thieves.

the 100%+ is easily possible, heck it was before the signet boost but for a direct damage build whats the point unless your stacking high amounts of critical damage which then makes it harder to actually hit the 100% without relying on fury or positional trait boosts your going to be able to manage more damage with power stacking than with the perma-crit.

With base critical damage levels (80% damage increase on crits for thieves with critical traits line) you’d accomplish the same damage increase by increasing your power by 80% with no critical chance, with the power level of around 2000 people are getting in their builds (which I realize are far from optimal) a power level of 3600 (possible for thieves) and you’d do more damage even if you never crit. However that builds not only going to have that power but its going to be sitting on around a 50% crit rate and a heck of a lot more critical damage…

So yeah 100% crit rate possible(without fury), not really advantageous for people wanting to do direct damage and highly unlikely to be guarantee numbers like in the OP

Well the wiki page hasn’t been updated since February.

The power gain is fairly simple its just a straight 33% more (so around 0.0233 though the numbers im getting are closer to 0.0333) as for the damage scale I havn’t a clue, the numbers Im getting don’t seem to be an average of those ranges or even random rolls between those like weapons, there does seem to be some increase but without having really used them much pre-post I can’t really give a definite answer, specially with the numbers that small having heavy heavy rounding issues with the maths.

Perhaps someone else knows more exact, or can share their own findings to find the exacts.

Theres a chance that as scoota said its the damage cap so if you have enough power to do more than 425 damage you won’t (though I’d find that strange)

the questions come down to:

How would you supplement it? where would the healing and other damage reduction come from?

After you’ve sorted them out how long do you feel you’d stay alive and whats your now abysmal damages average time for a down?

with lowest base HP and second lowest base armour thieves are not really in a good position to start really focusing on a vital/tough bunker set both guardians and elementalists would be able to due to the other defensive mechanics they get (boons, healing etc) which compliment such stats well, the defenses thieves get don’t really compliment those stats being about evasion rather than prevention.

Humorless.1573:

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

Same rules would apply as to stealth – you can’t get invuln for upto 4 seconds after you deal damage.

Till then you’re mine

Well I can wait 3 seconds in invulnerability and then C&D to deal a little damage and continue being invulnerable, if you dodge that doesnt matter i’ll just heal or use a utility to be invulnerable again, and continue dealing 1’5-4k damage every 3 seconds

Since you’re visible I’ll know when to dodge and where you’re going to be. C&D’ing me won’t be that easy. You obviously can’t spam heals because of CD’s. I’ll like to try this and see what happens..

LOL

Then why is dodging CnD hard now? You KNOW WHEN TO DODGE. Did you not learn how to count to 3?

Anyway I would love this. Team up with a bunch of other thieves and just basilisk + CnD focus fire idiots to death in zergs.

not to mention being visible while invincible would allow you to juke out the evades and such anyway, I mean its not like you have to make sure you pull off the combos perfectly because you don’t have any way to reliably prevent damage anymore

Travlane.5948:

yeah i wish they would fix that. the extra hp woudl help especially with signet of agility.

silly! thieves aren’t allowed reliable static defenses such as properly working health gains!

I don’t see how its “over” powered, yes a potential 5s immobilize on 5 people is potentially very powerful but nothing stops them cleansing then rolling out between applications you could make that easier by increasing the immobs duration but slowing pulse rate so 2s immob every 2 seconds instead so people get easier time to flee or alternate between pulses of immob and cripple, which might actually be more useful as then you cycle through different people as others escape allowing it to effect more etc etc.

But heck lets say that even if it doesn’t hit full potential all the time it turns out to be too powerful you could tone it down to levels that other similiar skills have which are generally 1-2s immob on the people as it goes off and then cripple pulses after that, you could then up the duration to match those other skills, would still be useful as a caltrops alternative, it would then basically become a direct damage variant of caltrops with the added utility of that initial immobilize and faster cast at the cost of slightly less damage maybe base damage and of course in stealth utility.

Theres lots of give and take but heck if you really really really wanted to you could just copy and paste caltrops on to it but make slight changes, it would be a boring copy paste but the slight difference (cast time/application method etc) would still give enough variation in use that they become a choice.

And theres also the simple fact that if they managed to improve them onto a decent power level that could be compared to say caltrops where its neither OP or UP then what exactly would stop you thinking of using them? I mean other than the thought that its utterly impossible to balance 2 similiar functioning skills to around the same power? (even if my sleep deprived hastily written idea didn’t manage it and im not trying to bash you I just don’t really understand why you feel it would only ever be one extreme or the other.)

well the crit chance comes in/came in handy for the full burst even if you used hidden killer, but either way its generally not smart and your still not going to really be hitting the big numbers normally, they tend to pop up in silly circumstances such as high might stacks and fairly unfeasible util sets ups or the like.

Just don’t expect to be pulling off the fairly mythical 1-shots (which utilize at least 2 shots…)

well what your getting is actually closer to the real average most those high ones tend to be exaggerated by one side or the other.

They are possible but you have to go more or less all the way full glass and heap on as much power and crit damage as possible. some more zerkers (loose vit, gain precision so you can sacrifice precision else where such as buffs etc) further into deadly arts for more power, the right food+utility buffs etc etc.

It also depends heavily on the targets your hitting if you target the squishies and try and distinguish up-levels from actual 80’s that alone could up your damage somewhat.

I’d have to agree with pope about the flip system and initiative, it is fairly counter productive when you try to combine having a system designed for free flexible utilization of your tools and a system where your tools are strictly ordered and forced into patterns.

Flanking strike is rather an exception mostly because its not a new flip skill, its essentially exactly what it was before its still 2 hits, its still an evade then a hit, they’ve tweaked the rotation so the boon effects on the second strike, increased its effectiveness and sped up and made the whole move more reliable but while the flip skill is nice due to the way this particular skill functioned anyway I doubt it would be all that different if it wasn’t a flip skill.

The suggestion from this thread is to add additional effects to the skills that didn’t have them by putting flip skills, essentially locking you from utilizing their particular core effect (the one your currently actually using it for) until you do something you may not want to do. Which at least in the builds I use would actually be damaging at base.

Ideally for introducing new skills to weapon sets they could really do with having weapon skill customization options, the frame works already basically there with the unlocking the skills and the skills page. Eventually I dare say they will introduce such systems allowing you to choose which particular dual skill you want (hmm should I take pistol whip or should I take “slashyshooty” which of these would work best) but flip skills on weapons in the initiative system could be disastrous.

However Im all for more flip utilities, bring on the scorpion wire flip “reel in” allowing me to reel myself to the ending location of the clearly failed scorpion wire!

if you go by skill coefficient per second it comes out slightly ahead of dagger AA but slightly behind sword AA they both come with little effects too (AoE, conditions etc) at least until initiative starvation (which effects almost every initiative skill)

However its slightly normal for ranged skills to be weaker than melee due to the range advantage, and of course traited it can potentially be better and such.

I won’t argue it could use tweaks and improvements (as could Pistol whip and tbh a vast majority of thief skills) but for what its for (damage) its one of the stronger dual skills as the others tend to be more on utility.

Though this comes down to one of the issues with most skills in this game that the only timing given in game is the activation time, which is generally a half second or more slower than the full use time and for thieves the fact that our skill coefficients are generally really low (each shot is only 0.3 skill coefficient for example)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ghostwolf.9863:

Traps:
Should be buffed.
The thief from ambush trap dies way too quickly.
Tripwire only knocks down 1 target, imo I think it should stay up for about 2-3 seconds after triggered to knock down additional targets that tries to pass it.
Needle trap should immobilize and poison the first target that steps on it as
normally, and for a couple of seconds afterwards cripple and posion additional
targets that walk over it.

I doubt that they will make changes to these any time soon, but I like the lingering effects after they trigger. Tripwire would be a really funny skill to use — might as well change it to Marbles Trap. :P

Well trip wire for example could quite possibly become the thief’s line of warding, sure it wouldn’t have as much stopping power (if they just gave it a duration rather than a use which would really help all the thief traps) but with stuff like the trait that would give them all stacks of vulnerability and maybe some additional tweaks it would probably become a solid choice for the troll/zerg thief at the very least.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I asked you; pick a trap, improve it, if you’d pick Caltrops over this improved trap, then improve it again, repeat until you’re satisfied. Then make an argument why someone will pick your newly improved traps.

“improved in ways that made them better” is a cowardly approach because you know that the only way of make traps not “garbage” is either make it OP or make Caltrops “garbage” — then you’d pick neither.

Actually you didn’t you just stated why would you take traps when caltrops already does what you’d want traps for.

The point is, if they were improved to be on par then you’d potentially take them for the different effects they’d have over caltrops just like any skill choice SHOULD be.

There should be effective multiple choices for most situations with the ideal skill varying depending on build and playstyle.

For example, Caltrops currently is the best/only real area denial tool we have, it is great for spreading people away, slowing them down and applying some hefty bleeds.

For 10 seconds it will disuade people from that area and slow them down giving you a decent escape help and some decent group fight presence.

However it has its faults, its cast on the thieves location and the duration starts the moment its cast meaning unless the thief is in the middle of the players theres a chance that a lot of the duration is wasted. Its effectiveness greatly drops the moment they dodge roll out and if your not condition built.

Now take Needle trap, this trap could be great for exactly those situations.

Improvements: Needle trap is now a decently sized circle instead of a singular line, On activation the trap is active for 5 seconds and hits everyone (upto 5 people as all aoe’s) in the area, it applies 1s immobilize every second, it applies 2 seconds of poison every second and deals direct damage every second (more than currently).

This takes it from a single line that hits a single person for 3s immobilize and poisons them while doing a singular hit of damage to an area containment tool. It won’t disuade people from the area instead it will keep those it hit stuck there much better than caltrops allowing for a better escape from those or more effective containtment.

The bleed damage is lost for poisons debuff to the healing power however it deals direct damage in addition to the potential for traiting to give it weakness as well.

Because its active time isn’t from when cast but when triggered the thief looses non of its effectiveness by utilizing it before the encounter or when running.

Con’s are of course that its duration is shorter, the damage potential is smaller due to the bleeds vs poison.

They would both be good picks, they’d both have builds that would have a preference over the other and both have certain situations where they are the clear choice, however overall their utility is very similiar to the point where unless you’ve specifically traited or built in a way that makes one that much better than the other they’d become a preference.

Zacchary.6183:

How about we just scrap the Thief class completely and see what other class is the next poopstain of the month…

Im betting mesmer or ele would be next, after they get removed who knows.. maybe guardian then open season.

So… improving something won’t help because somethings already good?

So if traps where all improved in ways that made them better (not just “as good as” as everything really should be) than caltrops you’d still only use caltrops because caltrops has always been ok? that makes no sense…

well if you take into account that it essentially comes out as damage per initiative for thieves, which is generally fairly standard

Still wish there was systems like warhammer, stuff like multiple gates to basically every castle and a small backdoor defenders could use to sneak back into the defense (which could be guarded by attackers as part of the siege strategy) with certain classes being able to “sneak” through enemy backdoors to try and help distrupt the defense while other classes got stuff like siege damage reductions for themselve and nearby people so they could push oil defended doors and such…

But alas it seems stuff like this that basically involves essentially waiting in the corner for the enemies to do everything first is the closest this game will ever really see.

unload is actually one of the higher total damages of all the dual skills (working on the pure amount of damage one use will net total, not DPS and not actual real use damage thats lower because people just roll away)