Guild Wars 2

just remove stomp in total, make it so to finish people you actually have to attack em.

yep, the +stats for each trait line is global and just added to your basic stats

Blankverse.4927:

roachsrealm.9284:

….. seeing the problem here yet?

Bad comparison. You’re talking about fighting, i’m talking about being able to run away.

When i meet a warrior or guardian and i am better – i get the kill.
When i meet a necro, mesmer or ele and i am better – i get the kill.
When i meet a ranger or engi etc etc.
But:
When i meet a thief and i am better – he probably will use stealth and … i won’t get the kill.
Seeing the problem here?

Except if there that low health its not that hard to finish them off even if they are stealthed unless you totally forget where they where the moment they go invisible and have no environmental awareness.

unless it states specifically that it effects a certain pool of skills they are global effects.

And those that do effect specific skill pools state which pool (and what pool a skill belongs to is written in its tooltip)

until people stop qqing and start actually learning how to counter things there will be no skill cap in public pvp.

So yeah… theres no skill :P

Iove.3902:

Dasorine.1964:

Iove.3902:

Also it would behoove you to remember that CND builds as well as Thief mobility are receiving buffs. Devs have said that they want to give us more types of conditions. Here’s hoping you can do some burn damage.

They said they are thinking about it, thats not the same thing as giving them.

The nerf is coming before they give any compensation (if any ever gets put in at all, there is patterns forming)

Take notice that I said ‘want’ and not ‘will’ give.

You said certain builds were “receiving buffs” they are not and they most likely won’t be in the foreseeable future if anets previous promises are to go by.

Also spamming backstab is silly, if the target turns around after blocking/evading the initial strike your going to hit their front and loose the major damage.

I would agree that on block something could happen but considering how short the window is to get into position for that strike and how much other people can do to prevent it on miss and such probably shouldn’t

Iove.3902:

Also it would behoove you to remember that CND builds as well as Thief mobility are receiving buffs. Devs have said that they want to give us more types of conditions. Here’s hoping you can do some burn damage.

They said they are thinking about it, thats not the same thing as giving them.

The nerf is coming before they give any compensation (if any ever gets put in at all, there is patterns forming)

Sifu.6527:

I too have made suggestion on how to fix this too but it was drowned in a sea of QQ threads/posts.

Chaining CnD, at least to me, is fine but should only be possible 2 times max until you run out of init. However, there are traits such as Infusion of Shadow, Patience, quick recovery, etc that allows for easy indefinite stealth. Instead of nerfing those traits, they went ahead with a blanket nerf. Right or wrong, only time will tell.

Personally for CnD I’d rather they do something along the lines of when you CnD you get a buff called “Feint” that lasts 8 seconds, any CnD used while this is up deals no damage and refreshes the buff, becoming revealed clears the buff.

This means CnD can still be used for more than just backstab fodder but people can’t abuse it to chip away at new players.

But yeah.. blanket nerf instead, can’t wait to see what other nerfs we get in the near future when all the new players that struggle with backstab thieves that complained to get this nerf find that they are the build almost unaffected by this.

triforge is mystic forgable from drops as well, basically comes down to how much effort you want to put in and such.

but the 2 are identical

I still don’t get why they are doing a blanket nerf rather than altering the few cases that are vailidly silly or exploitative…

It will effect all thieves to some degree if only by limiting choices and not just in pvp but in pve, there are times when switching to full stealth utilities to do something is the easier way (and balanced in such that you have to use full utils and burn em) and of course there are traits and builds that can use stealth repeatedly in defensive methods in a balanced but because some idiots died to a CnD hit every 3-4 seconds or such they decide to blanket nerf the entire mechanic rather than tweaking those few exploitative/imbalanced situations.

Im just very upset that anet seems to have put very little thought into this AND gone against many of their previous statements (of not nerfing professions, not using WvW to effect massive game encompassing changes etc etc)

Are there things about stealth that need to be changed? yes there is, but an ignorant blanket nerf that hurts other builds and professions just as much if not more is not the way to do it.

only rings and mist essences for crafting back item drops in fractals.

The rest must be obtained via laurels or guild merits. Its just you can also get the rings from laurels.

Erg I hated mass raid content, unless your really popular you end up needed to group with people you don’t actually know rather than doing it with a group of close friends.

Gamblit.5041:

It just hit me. While they are changing stealth on 26th, will they also add mobility to Thieves in the same patch, or was it just something they were thinking about doing in the future?

something that will possibly happen, at some point in the future, maybe.

you will have to do both eventually, ascended back item can only be gotten from fractal running while everything else other than rings is obtainable only from either laurels (amulets) or both laurels and guild tokens (accessories)

EasymodeX.4062:

Dasorine.1964:

shatters not a utility its a class skill is it not? Im talking actual utility slots, you can still fire off stuff like charge mantra’s without having to wait between each one.

Phantasmal Disenchanter and Defender will overwrite existing clones and phantasms. They will also be overwritten by mere clones if you have 3 phantasms up.

I still don’t understand why they decided to blanket nerf the mechanic rather than properly fix the bits that are causing the proper problems (and not just complaints by people who think stealth is invincibility)

Because the “blanket nerf” is, in fact, a directed fix for repeated spammy stealths (without affecting stealth stacking, which should probably also be nerfed, but would impact current gameplay a hell of a lot more).

Overwritten isn’t same as not work at all, you still get the effect you click the next button for it just replaces an older one.

So then no one should be able to spam any similiar moves back to back, so if you want to fire off another clone you have to wait for the old ones to time out else your cooldown goes to waste, if people want to put another stack of boons on they have to wait a set period after the last one popped before they use the move.

The fact the people think constantly being stealthed is an issue is just bad, someone staying in stealth is doing NOTHING to you, they at best are escaping without giving you a reward but they are still for all purposes defeated.

If they are doing something to you they are either already activating revealed (how it should be) or are doing CnD spam which should be fixed but specifically so and even thats 1 medium hit every 3-4 seconds predictably.

shatters not a utility its a class skill is it not? Im talking actual utility slots, you can still fire off stuff like charge mantra’s without having to wait between each one.

And yeah stealth change effects more than just thief which is also wrong (though those abusing smoke combo fields outside of combat also needed adjusting)

I still don’t understand why they decided to blanket nerf the mechanic rather than properly fix the bits that are causing the proper problems (and not just complaints by people who think stealth is invincibility)

nerva.7940:

Well if this nerf makes u switch profs then u are and always have been a baddie. After the nerf you’ll just have to think and plan before diving in to unload. And u can still play attrition as p/d. This is really just a nerf to all the cnd spammers and culling abusers. Your damage is still there so enough with the tears. This was a necessary change and all the good thieves know it.

Again the main issue is the fact that its a blanket nerf to all stealth rather than a specific fix for the actual issues.

It would be like them putting on a 3 second cooldown on gaining boons because one specific case can stack all the boons instantly.

Fact is no one else gets penalized for using their utilities back to back, with this change it will punish those thieves that use more than 1 instance of stealth for something other than sitting around farming newbies with CnD only.

Unfortunately healing power is never really combined with more than 1 damage stat which as a profession designed around damage not tanking is a bit of a problem and the health drain given to allies with venomous aura probably still wouldn’t make up for the fact you’re not contributing much else.

That said you don’t need healing gear for the heals to be worth it, as others said the base healing is more than enough for burst heals, though the limitation of needing venoms to activate that trait is what puts me off.

If they made it more feasible to keep venoms on or at least put some more useful debuffs on some of the venoms I’d probably give it a shot.

you get 70 traits, not 60, and its more than enough, any more and there wouldn’t really be any choice involved in trait builds

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leeching_Venoms

yes

because your still firing an arrow with a bomb attached

Not regularly no and tbh im getting bored of this arguement your entire reason for the change is because you want a new skill for YOUR build and don’t beleive anyone else could find value in using it in any other build.

So no, this is a bad change just like every other change you’ve suggested so far.

Except if the group doesn’t have any other major bleed/condition users, or if the group doesn’t have another thief with an IQ high enough to realize how to maximize utilities situation to situation.

Seriously people can optimize builds that aren’t yours and not every team contains condition users (its actually rare for me to be in a team with any other real sources of bleeds, even the few times there has been a warrior they’ve not stacked more than about 4-5)

Masquerade Mantle

Daecollo.9578:

The build you use sounds like a bleed-stacking build that abuses caltraps.
It is good in PvE, except when you main a warrior or necromancer. If you have any of these classes, just assume your not doing damage, because your probably not due to the bleed cap, therefore your probably easily replaceable. I mean your not really doing anything for your group, except decreasing the necromancers dps (if you have one.).

Wow… just wow… I was half joking when I suggested you think only your spec works and everything should cater to it but… that.. wow… your an kitten

Think of them as set bonuses, that 0/2 is how many of that set you have equiped, each rune placed onto gear you have equiped will count and give you each set bonus.

So if your wearing 2 minor runes of the thief on 2 different bits of armour you will get the 1 slot bonus (10 precision) and the 2 slot bonus (7 condition damage)

Same goes for minor lyssa.

If you have 2 of both you should get BOTH sets of bonuses at the same time as long as your wearing the armour bits with all 4 of the runes in.

used to work great with a d/d condition build, would make deathblossom hits 100% critical which not only makes up for the reduced power but also triggered omnom pie every leap at least once if not twice.

It still works nicely for some builds but pie doesnt get as much advantage now due to the kitten internal cooldown.

pvp is not the entire kitten game, Im sick of games being balanced around pvp and thus destroying it for many people.

And bleeds, if set up for it, are great against pve bosses, thats why condition builds exist.

again thats YOUR build, what works for you wont work for others and vice versa.

All skills are not equal, you will never be able to have all skills work equally on all builds, trying to do so will ruin not only the skill but the game.

except it wouldn’t, I already get way more than the amount you listed in a single target encounter with my build and way more in multi target encounters.

You mean it would bring in higher HPS for YOUR build, well guess what, yours isn’t the only build in the game.

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

precisely there set bonuses but flexible ones not attached to any specific gear so you can have armour you like the looks of, with the stats you want on with the set bonuses you want.

well in pve you get a constant heal, when combined with rapid hits (such as auto attack chain, deathblossom, unload etc etc) you can take mob after mob without ever needing to stop to heal.

Throw in multiple enemies with caltrops, aoe attacks (death blossom, swiftshot etc etc) you get lots of healing, more than enough to keep yourself up against a reasonable group of mobs.

This was doubly so when you could have omnom pies triggering without an internal cooldown, with that combo you could actually stay in melee range on most dungeon bosses without having to retreat to heal up or such (unfortunately the pies got nerfed so are no longer that good for thieves)

The moment you put a cooldown on it punishes you for playing a thief who is designed for rapid bursts (burn initiative and back off etc) and it also heavily weakens on of the best skills a thief has for AoE situations as while you may have upped the healing per tick to make it about the same against a single target a cooldown totally stops it working on multiple targets.

There is absolutely NO benefit to putting an internal cooldown on, even if you up the on use heal and everything the ones designed for that purpose will still beat it while those situations that the SoM is for and works brilliantly for will be ruined.

which one? how it nerfs or how its pretty ace in pve at the very least?

works great for me, I’ve basically use JUST it for pve since the beginning.

Putting internal cooldown on it is pure and simply nerfing it.

it adds up for each additional rune you have equiped in the set

so for all 5 you’d get 165 power and 50 toughness

this is true, although I find it a bit depressing that some of our best situational tools tend to come with the interaction of skills with combo fields rather than skills themselves.

savints.6281:

Dasorine.1964:

well the extra damage was to balance out the slow down of the move (waiting for shadowstep to fade out for reuse)

Multi-step was to a) give reason for the dagger move to stay same b) give thief a cool looking move c) increase mobility further.

how powerful it would be would really depend on a lot, if each “step” of the dance took extra initiative you wouldn’t be able to just spam it repeatedly until the groups died, having no control over where the other steps would be could also be a penalty resulting in death (stepping into a warriors hundred blades for example) meaning the only reliable step would be the first one and not utilizing the others puts a “cooldown” on that step without actually totally limiting you from it.

I still don’t really see how the multi-stepping works, so you use dancing dagger, lets say it hits 3 targets, then what, your dancing dagger swaps to a shadow step, to step to your first target? then once you step to your first target it steps to your second target on the next key press and so on, there still has to be a time limit at which you can step at, what if I didn’t want to shadow step and I wanted to use dancing dagger again? I could see it being like this only if it where lets say for instance, had a timer attached to each step and once that timer ran out it would return “flip back” to dancing dagger, lets do the same scenario again, I use my dancing dagger it hits 3 targets, my dancing dagger flips to a shadow step for 1.5 seconds, if I don’t use it with in that 1.5 seconds it then returns back to dancing dagger and I am able to use that again if I want, or if I had used the shadow step it refreshes it for another 1.5 seconds and it is able to be used again but this time stepping to target 2 rinse and repeat, this is the only way I can this happening or could happen, and yeah that would be pretty kitten awesome!

That was the idea, on throw it’d swap to shadow step, you’d have a timer for shadowstepping you’d have so long to use the 4 shadowsteps (or less if you didnt get all 4 bounces on dancing dagger) then it would revert back (ala infiltrators strike) and of course it would revert back after you stepped to all targets once.

well the extra damage was to balance out the slow down of the move (waiting for shadowstep to fade out for reuse)

Multi-step was to a) give reason for the dagger move to stay same b) give thief a cool looking move c) increase mobility further.

how powerful it would be would really depend on a lot, if each “step” of the dance took extra initiative you wouldn’t be able to just spam it repeatedly until the groups died, having no control over where the other steps would be could also be a penalty resulting in death (stepping into a warriors hundred blades for example) meaning the only reliable step would be the first one and not utilizing the others puts a “cooldown” on that step without actually totally limiting you from it.

though I do agree it would be nice if there was ways to streamline salvaging but every way I think of basically takes the same time.

One change that would be awesome though is when you have your salvage kit ready, non salvagables faded out (making it easier to find salvagable gear without having to reorganize your inventory first)

A cool dancing dagger would have its damage upped heavily and on throwing the skill would change to a shadowstep move which you can trigger to teleport to each target (first press takes you to first target, second to second etc etc)

Increased damage would be to make up for the lack of being able to hurl a couple of them (or even make it so the shadowstep involves a swift stab for low to moderate damage)

course it would have to cost a fair whack of initiative else thieves would never be able to be pinned down

that said it will never happen

wouldn’t give them any more mobility than they already get while nerfing damage on consecutive strikes and causing more complaints due to having the same damage it has now but without needing them to be nearly dead first.

Dancing daggers wouldn’t be so bad, however they already nerfed its damage so I can’t see them increasing it again

well if you go full rare to full exotic you gain a total of 102 to major and 75 minor stat.

Its not a great deal I have to admit but once your 80 theres not much reason not to work on exotics for that little gain.

stealth is possible however it tends to only last 3 seconds (4 if you trait), however you can stealth in combat so you can build toward a stealth damage build and still do full damage halfway through combat.

Just don’t expect to be running across maps in permastealth without cheesing

Distaste.4801:

Stealth is FAR too powerful, that is what people are not understanding. It not only gives you a huge advantage offensively but defensively as well. The fact that stealth can heal you, remove conditions, reduce your cooldowns(regen initiative), increase your crit, give you might, and blind all on top of being able to pick your battles, ambush your enemy, and get away if things go south is imbalanced. What makes it even worse is that it is spammable via C&D and the initiative system. ArenaNet took stealth, which is already a huge balancing act, and dialed it up to 11.

Except its not stealth thats too powerful, 3-4 seconds of invisibility with a few extra effects ONLY if you trait for it is not inherently powerful, its power comes from people not following you and good players can and will still hit you in stealth.

The bad part is almost purely the C+D spam, which is really only an issue because of the damage from C+D (though how people still die from 1 mediocre hit every 3-4 seconds and not figure out where the thief is I dont know) or the combo field abuse to get a very long duration stealth, out side of those stealth requires burning a cooldown to enter, a cooldown that takes up a slot in a limited set up and of course while stealthed the thief is not doing anything but potentially taking damage so if people do chain their stealth there not accomplishing anything offensive during that time.

Except rather than focus on the few cheesey applications Anet decides to blanket nerf the entire system that not only effects every thief who uses stealth in any fashion (some won’t feel it, some will) but it also effects other classes and the entire game.

vespers.1759:

Dasorine.1964:

they still take damage and stealth doesnt stop that.

how do i do damage to someone who is invis other than with a lucky untargetted aoe? also what aoe do i use as a ranger? i have barrage on longbow, nothing on shortbow, nothing on sword, nothing on horn, nothing on dagger, nothing on axe, and nothing of GS. i could run traps, and hope the thief steps into one but unless specced they fall at your feet. the flame trap that is probably the best dps trap will only activate when the thief is right on top of me (unless traited but that’s even more based on luck than untraited) and the terrible burn dmg will surely pose a threat to the thief who hits me for 7k+ a hit!

then of course the thief will simply stealth again in 3 seconds! wahoo! and my pet, who will never land a hit on the thief also provides the thief with an extra target to stealth off of.

You’ve been told multiple times as has all those that have come to the thief forum to whine

except spamming 2 will rapidly empty their initiative leaving them empty and unable to use any further weapon skills, they still take damage and stealth doesnt stop that.

The fact that you want this sort of power while still being able to use all the advantages rangers have is what makes you ignorant, you clearly don’t know how to play ranger.

Against competent players most thieves are actually at a disadvantage not having any real actual mechanical defense to reduce damage.

Rangers are not forced to run bunkers, there are many GC rangers and they are capable of dealing nasty damage but they accept that they also risk being taken down by other glass cannons, just as thieves do.

Sure theres some thieve cheese but theres cheese for most profs. People that claim thieves are overpowered because they think stealth stops all damage are idiots plain and simple and will never be happy with “balance” because their idea of balance is having everything while others have nothing.

firebreathz.7692:

Im also willing to bet if you stack mf too high it will work against you.. as your rolling on rarer loot more/too often.. so loot over all goes down with a marginal gain of maybe one more green but 4 less blues per run for example..

Thats not how it works it will never NOT give you loot because it rolled on something higher as all loot drops roll highest rarity and down

And thus you reveal your ignorance once again, professions have differences if you want to have one of the potentially best bursts that isn’t limited by immediate cooldowns you roll thief, if you don’t then you don’t.

Complaining that your ranger isn’t a thief and that your incapable of using it to its maximum potential at what ITS good at then its YOUR fault.