nope, not much changed just a drop in DPS for a DPS class that is out DPSed by other classes.
I heard overreaction was all the rage these days, but some of you guys have gone WAY off the reservation.
there talking PvE although you’ve been told this many times before but seem to still be slightly annoyed because a thief killed you a few times in pvp and thus think everything is about pvp.
… when did I ever say anything along those lines? certainly not in the quote you have there, so… yeah whats crawled up your kitten and died?
You seem to be spewing angry vitriol about things no one is saying, such as P/D thieves abusing stealth when they just used it to maintain a few more stacks of bleeds, or me stating that group encounters in pvp where ANET has stated they know we aren’t that strong took a slight vulnerability hit and yet you seem to extrapolate that these statements are saying that everything is ruined and we were/are using cheese builds and all that.
If anything all this twisting of other peoples statements into your own angry vision of people QQing when they are not makes it sound like either you feel you got hit hard or your one of those that think thieves are unbeatable overpowered gods of pvp, either way you need to chill out and do some fact finding.
Anet is doing a great job so far overall. Lets give them some credit and have some faith eh? You wouldn’t be playing this game if you didn’t like it.
That is also just your opinion, my opinion differs in so much as so far there has been no real success on Anets part either content release wise or balance wise.
Unfortunately when they gave us a bad idea I and at least some others tried giving them alternative methods of dealing with the issues, instead they scrapped their flawed blanket nerf and randomly chose a different blanket nerf without actually telling us why.
And its not changes I dislike, its poorly thought out changes that have little thought put into them that I dislike.
And also you don’t balance someone by nerfing on the basis that sometime in the future you may possibly buff them in other ways. That is not how balance should work.
I’ve posted so many times on different ways to fix at least some of the percieved issues with thieves but between non-thief players that can’t cope with the stealth mechanic at all trolling and ANET’s apparent disregard for a large portion of profession abilities what I’m left with is flickering hope that this is a two time goof only, which in of its self is not enough.
well critical hits on the attacks that apply them is still nice bonus damage, and of course you have a plethora of “on crit” mechanics that could be utilized (including on crit condition application)
problem is if these are the sorts of changes they are going to be making (and the “buffs” are not at all definite, most likely they will never happen), profession wide nerfs that aren’t fully thought through damaging all sorts of builds that are generally seen weaker, making entire trait lines less desirable and still not fixing any of the actual perceived issues.
What exactly did this 1 second longer reveal fix that was so much of an issue that isn’t still massively present? Compared to all the many many area’s it actuall broke?
nope theres no armour with that combination of stats.
Theres Condition Damage (major) Power + Vitality (Minor) or Condition Damage (major) Precision + Toughness minor, which is sort of the closest you’ll get.
it mostly comes down to reuse time and combinations that go with it.
But yeah BV really isn’t elite anymore its almost inferior to most regular stuns take for instance magic bullet from mesmer, 2s stun on a 25s cooldown with additional hits and multiple targets each also getting debuffed some form.
Compared to that BV is almost rubbish, double so when you realize the petrified debuff doesn’t stack duration.
To begin, I’ve always asked myself Why would a Thief use Stealth in this game? Thief doesn’t Stealth. Why would they? . I can not find any Mmo’s where a Thief uses Stealth abilities. The Only Class which fits that Profile and Attributes is Ninja a.k.a Nin.
I found an interesting info. about Ninja Stealth. http://www.cart-white.co.uk/ninja/stealth.htm
Ninja fits your Profile and Attributes Perfectly except with the Nerfs.
So if you are concerned about Stealth being Nerfed or Crippled after this patch, why Not Ask For A Ninja Class? or to be Replaced by a Ninja Class?, Than you can have all the Stealth’s etc.. you want.
Ooooh I get it ! They wouldnt dear to nerf ninja !
Unless ANET are pirates! Theres a good chance they are (just look at all the pirate gear they put in!)
And again the point really comes down to the fact that many people complain that backstabs damage is far too high, when there are plenty of skills that are both easier to land and more damage, the third chain in axe auto attack is a prime example, higher skill damage coefficient, no positional requirements, no cooldown requirements and yet its Backstab that is seen as the deadlier skill.
The BIG difference in GW2 is that stealth can be used to 100% invisibility with no consequences;
But thats just it, there is consequences to stealth, sure its not slow down or such like in other games but it is in ways of loss of cooldowns or damage potential and such.
This is one of the things that annoys me people that don’t realize that its not consequence or risk free, those other games “consequences” tend not to matter, so what if your moving slower at base (almost all of them have ways to remove that penalty) if you can remain in it indefinitely.
While here its either the loss of a limited utility or loss of half our weapon skills. Throw in our absence of mechanics other games grant their stealth professions to make up for lack of stealth in combat and throw in the fact that stealth is trivialized when against skilled opponents in any game….
im not sure dungeons have any scaling with the number of players, they will always be the set designed for 5 player teams.
I do imagine that some at least would be possible with fewer depending on class and set up and personal CoF1 for instance could probably be done by many duo’s but I’ve never really tried and doubt many have as its generally not too hard to get a full team for most.
Some do have definite requirements, usually at least 3 people (CoE and some fractals come to mind)
CoF path 1 requires 5 people to complete due to the 4 brazier+ 1 gate controller part.
ahh true, and dinometer its not required to enter the dungeon but in those cases it is required to progress at certain points.
For example Crucible of Eternity has one part in it where there is a hall filled with lasers and 5 buttons, 2 on the starting side and 3 on the other side of the lasers, which need to be pressed at the same time to disable the lasers to allow the NPC to move forward and unlock the path further. You can enter with less, if your really good you could even potentially solo the dungeon up until that point.
Similiar mechanics are in many dungeons, CoF has the 2 bits rozc said that I’d forgotted, first one requiring 3 people to simultaneously carry something the other part requiring a full 5.
Though not all dungeons have such things, twilight arbour for instance I cannot think of any mechanics in it that force you to have a full group to pass.
Dps on a warrior’s axe is roughly the same on thieves daggers, if they are built similarly. They hit harder, but slow. taking 3.9s to complete a combo compared to a thieves which is about 2s. Misconception people make about it.
The comparison is that axe third chain in auto attack that takes 3.6s to go through hits harder than backstab that a thief requires 4.75s to go through at best (in reality more along the 5.75-6.75 range)
Auto attack damage only axe would still be ahead, the full chain for dagger deals a base of 7kittenage every 2 seconds, axe does a base of 1648 damage over 3.6 seconds.
So daggers auto attack is 380 dps axe is 458 dps
Funny, i’m getting ~900dps for the both, In the mist i use basic weapons, no traits, runes or sigils, and a beserker amulet on both. Stats are pretty much the same(axes slightly higher to due the damage on axes itself), and it take both 10s to down the light armor golem with just AAs. With the thief taking 6-7s to kill it with AAs + 2 C&D/BS combos . Been doing that test for the last hour and thats what i keep coming up with.
Just to note, i opened up with the BS combo, 2 auto chains and another BS. Doing it with an Auto combo first, one BS, and 2 more autos, took 8s
Well I was calculating with base stats only, throwing in C+D and BS without throwing in axe cooldowns will of course somewhat close the gap simply due to the fact that spending cooldowns should always gain more than not (be it more damage or more utility)
Dps on a warrior’s axe is roughly the same on thieves daggers, if they are built similarly. They hit harder, but slow. taking 3.9s to complete a combo compared to a thieves which is about 2s. Misconception people make about it.
The comparison is that axe third chain in auto attack that takes 3.6s to go through hits harder than backstab that a thief requires 4.75s to go through at best (in reality more along the 5.75-6.75 range)
Auto attack damage only axe would still be ahead, the full chain for dagger deals a base of 7kittenage every 2 seconds, axe does a base of 1648 damage over 3.6 seconds.
yeah they doubled cooldown and window time for some reason, clearly they weren’t happy with the fact it wasn’t channeling enough people at the same time to cause overflow.
yeah eventually all the CC gets nerfed because no one likes being unable to act and it made them far too powerful, which of course always ended up dropping the “stealth” classes to the lower regions of effectiveness.
Hence my statements that you either have to put up with stealth being powerful against new/unskilled players, nerf the stealth users to oblivion or remove stealth in total. Because either way someones going to be complaining of being OP.
The problem with comparing stealth between games is other games tend to give even sillier things to make up for the limited in combat stealth usually in the form of stun locking.
Aion was a prime example at release, the stealth class basically lived or died on whether they could kill the target with their stun lock chain, if they could then the target had no way to fight back if they couldn’t then the stealth class was almost entirely incapable of killing that target in any way.
Here thieves get more frequent stealths but at no point do they prevent the enemy from attacking for their entire damage potential and at no point are they totally untouchable by the person their fighting. Heck even the damage potential of a thief isn’t way above anyone else, they have easier burst potential but have to get it in the same way anyone does.
if people who have never played thief before are correct because it makes us instant kill everything? (just like every other “unique” mechanic thieves have apparently)
I said “nearly” permastealth. The 3 seconds of being revealed before they can stealth again is not enough. So the additional second gives other classes a way to react better.
A maximum of 50% up-time on stealth is near-permanent?
Read it again. I’m talking about this scenario: thief appears, attack, disappears. Appears, attacks, disappears. These, previously, 3 seconds of minimum time of appearance, were too short to react (or 2 seconds, including clipping).
What your stating sounds very much like CnD spam which is not effected at all by revealed or the revealed duration increase, which of course comes with piddly damage that even the fragilest of glass cannons should be able to cope with.
If your absolutely definite about it NOT being that then a thief would still have only realistically been able to rukitten0% uptime on stealth and still deal enough damage to be a threat.
yeah the crystal prison is evadable but is probably the hardest part to dodge, fortunately we have the advantage of instant shadowsteps that allow us to escape them if we miss time it.
glass cannon vs glass cannon complaints are always meaningless, two people built to die instantly to kill instantly means in those fights its always those that hit first that are at the advantage. Stealth CAN give the thief this advantage but with its short time and lack of range even with mobility skills it isn’t a guarantee.
And then of course you have the fact that each profession has been designed with different things in mind, thief get the high burst with next to no staying power with a debatable mechanic to help them utilize that, mesmers will have things they excel at that others will find annoying/overpowered/broken.
Is there imbalance? probably yes, there always is specially when you have to take into account all the different player abilities and different little things that can tip things either way.
they never said they would buff thieves in this patch, the mobility changes especially where things they’d like to look into in the future (this is developer speak for we’d like to but probably wont has been in every mmo I’ve ever played)
Until they explicitly state that they have put this and that in the patch you should never expect what is said and even then until the patch notes are shown you shouldn’t expect exactly what you might think (as this patch has shown many people who are new to MMORPG’s and play a thief)
Even in PVE… i never can just Stand and DPS in a boss fight (aside from World bosses)..
Splash dmg always require me to backtrack recoup and get back in.
Yeah its not nice to receive nerfs to your main (thief is my loved and fav class)..
But it is done.. Lets work with the current limitation.
I would/will/do, the only reason I complain really is because of the ridiculous manner these changes have been implemented, no acknowledgement of exactly what they wanted to fix, the main cheese/exploits still present and untouched that everyone thought where the targets, the knock on effects of blanket changes that nerf/cripple things that where in no ones sights due to there weak/already balanced nature in a way that makes it seem they just were not thought about.
I am not a CnD spammer, i use stealth aggressively, i had the 3 second cooldown down to a pat.. i will just need to get used to 4.. and all the complaints saying that this will reduce their backstab dps by 33% obviously thinks this game is just stand and dps executing a near perfect rotation.. and receive no dmg from players or mobs where they had to backout and go on the defensive heal etc.
Well 90-95% of those complaints are about PvE where it sort of is just stand and dps executing a rotation for the most part.
And yeah the current nerfs not entirely game breaking but its not exactly negligible to certain builds (s/d loosing stun rate, p/d loosing bleed maintenance etc) and the biggest slap in the face comes that they never stated why they put it in, why they nerfed so many different facets of the thief while other aspects that others actually think is a problem are untouched.
Why do people think thieves don’t face risks when engaging, just what do you think stealth does? give immunity to damage? prevent any sort of prevention of escape?
Everyone else face the same risk as a thief the difference is the skills and mechanics each get to try and mitigate, others get things that actively stop or reduce damage at the cost of cooldowns, thieves get a mechanic that prevents unobservent/unprepared retaliation at the cost of either cooldowns or pseudo-cooldowns.
And other games stealth lasts more than 3 seconds base.
Yes I get it, when your new and a thief disappears and you don’t know what the hecks happening it feels like their gods but you really can prevent such things in so many ways.
tbh we don’t know what exactly the culprit is that made ANET decide these nerfs, it could be mugs 1.5 damage coeffiecent on a 45 second base cooldown move, it could be the CnD spam, could be the smoke field abuse, could be flanking strikes awesome boon ripping ability, could be the constant unresearched flames and complaints or could just be Anet dev’s don’t like us, we don’t know they probably won’t tell us and people will claim what ever they feel is unfair to them the most is the cause/not the cause.
Unfortunately rather than target the cheese/exploitative behaviour (CnD chaining, out of combat combo abuse etc etc) they’d rather do sweeping nerfs to mechanics in a way that effects off-spec builds and the weaker areas of thieves (PvE for instance) than address them.
You got nerfed, it was coming. You’ll get nerfed again. It’ll happen. You’ll also receive buffs in separate areas. This is called balance. Undoubtedly you’ll cite the time frame between now and then, but this is the penalty of being able to ride high so long on gimmicks, just like the HB warrior.
Just be patient, you’ll get more build diversity out of this in the long run. Oh and don’t cry about not getting love faster enough. A Ranger will kill you for that lol.
Those “gimmicks” where the things least effected in fact some of/most of them completely unaffected by the wide nerfing. The nerfs hit the area’s where thieves where on par or slightly below the majority of professions.
They cannot run away while under the stone effect.
Before this change basilisk venom actually applied 2 effects, first being the petrified condition, this is the stun that last 1.5 seconds and can be broken with a stun break move.
The second was an immobilize, this was hidden and was not removed when petrified was meaning after stun breaking people where still stuck in place.
With this patch it just means that anyone under the effect of basilisk venom escaped using a stun break not a stun break and a condition remover.
well things such as axe/axe warriors who could trait to get 5% power to vitality, upto 12% damage on full adrenaline, 5% more damage and 10% more crit damage on top of beserkers stance to keep their adrenaline up and higher damage after dodging to go with auto attacks containing chains that deal higher base damage than backstab and a big old finisher?
Or maybe bunker guardians who get fast instant meditations that heal while also healing for every boon they apply while also gaining 160 toughness?
There are lots of combinations out there, which is pretty much why you can’t.
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