Guild Wars 2

Annoying as this is, perhaps ANet’s stance is that its actual effect on the matchup is miniscule. Perhaps what’s needed is for people to “abuse”/“exploit” their server to 2nd/3rd place, or even drop to the next tier.

If you feel someone is negatively impacting your gameplay you absolutely have the right to let them know this and ask them to stop, whether or not it is being done intentionally. It is then that player’s right to decide, with this new information, whether they want to continue to do what they are doing.

It is a player’s right to play as they like. However, it is not a player’s right to be sheltered from being told that their gameplay is negatively impacting those of others.

Liewec.2896:

this would work too if they can’t be bothered trying to fix the problem by removing the cause

I think you’re confusing the cause with the effect. The cause is severe win-loss reward imbalance. The effect of this is stacking teams at the start, and the effect following this is the spectate/autobalance.

If you want balanced and even matches, you cannot have incentives for unbalanced lopsided matches.

+1, let’s get this to 1000 replies without a red comment

It’s the only thing people can do to counter team stacking and 1v2/2v3/3v4/4v5, which probably has a much worse effect than this match manipulation that you speak of. Spectate/rebalance happens as a result of severely imbalanced matches, not the other way around.

On top of that, apparently having 10 people in the server, playing or spectating/AFK, will “soft cap” it (“Play Now” will no longer send people in), you will often end up with 4v5 with a spectator and greatly diminished chance of someone else coming in to take that last spot.

If you want more even matches in a setting where people can just come and go, then you need to reduce the win-loss reward gap and provide extra incentives for someone to join/stay on a losing team. AB volunteer is one example of this done right, and I am generally the first person to click the button unless playing with friends. I am happy to play for the underdog, but I am not enough of a masochist to sacrifice 60% of the rewards for it.

Until then, if people are farming rank points by stacking one side, I will have zero bad feeling about forcing myself into the farm with the spectate button.

I remember seeing them say that to obtain a Legendary weapon the player had to prove that they could excel in every area of the game. To me that includes the Wv3 environment. (Although, I don’t know why the maps in sPvP weren’t included as well)

The fact that PvP is not included, along with the finished product being tradable, destroy any legitimacy in the argument that legendary weapons are supposed to be proof of excellence mastery participation in every area.

People are irked that WvW map completion requires them to depend on luck, as well as the participation of a large number of people on the server. Even increasing the cost of the Gift of Battle to 2500 badges (even at 500 this covers the requirement of including WvW that you/the devs listed) or raising the minimum WvW rank to buy it to 50 would not draw nearly the amount of complaints, since they are things a player does not need to depend on the rest of the server for.

The PvE equivalent would be dungeons being closed except for 3 random one-hour blocks every week.

Full disclosure: I have WvW completion done on 6 characters. 3 of them were done back in the day of free transfers by moving to a 550+ppt server. The other 3 were done more recently when my current server dropped a tier and became a 550+ppt server for the week.

I suspect the experiences of most in this thread are similar to mine, rather than some supposed anti-entitlement blood, sweat, and tears.

Zabroccoli.5870:

If the OP wants this just for the Legendary, then he doesn’t deserve it. The whole journey, leading up to acquiring one, is to prove that you have MASTERED all facets of the game. Thus the Gift of Mastery. This thread leaves me speechless. Just, speechless.

Can we require PvP rank 30 to buy Icy Runestones then please? After all, you want people to have proven they’ve “MASTERED all facets of the game” right?

DaShi.1368:

Grenix.1576:

remove reward penalty for loosing side (in hotjoin at least) Just put reward for amount of time played. Problem solved.

This won’t work because how points are rewarded is not obvious. Also, people will still rather be on the winning team, than suffer on a losing team that is getting stomped 4v5.

Winning is 250% as rewarding as losing. People stack because of this disparity in rewards. This stacking encourages further stacking as people refuse to accept a stacked match as a fair defeat. Few people care about hotjoin win/loss, so long as the matches are somewhat even and the rewards somewhat balanced.

Just reduce the disparity between hotjoin winning and losing (something like 400-300 from 500-200) and add a bonus 25/50/100 points for greatly reducing or eliminating a significant deficit.

People will be less incentivized by rewards to stack (either at the beginning or midgame) and the bonus will give people a reason to fill the losing team in uneven matches. Reduction in the win rewards will keep some stronger players in arenas, and a buff in loss rewards will keep some weaker players in hotjoin where matches may become more even.

gennyt.3428:

I thought I made that clear. Yes, queues aren’t fun but why get upset about it, it’s first come, first served just wait your turn to play. They paid like everybody else and they don’t owe anybody anything. The very second you start thinking people are taking up space or “blocking” anyone simply because they are on the map and have removed themselves from your approved activities is the moment that you’ve just face planted into the entitled zone.

How far does this opinion go? Does it cover crafting/AFK parties on Friday nights in the home borderland?

While fulfilling their main purpose (GvG/crafting/AFK) none of these people are “contributing”. On the other hand, just like people could stop their GvG to go help the cause for a few minutes, so can crafters and AFKers.

Shirogatsu.3150:

style.6173:

If skyhammer or spirit watch pop-up, quit the game and do something else for 15 minutes. Problem solved.

Note: Only works for people who do not care about the leaderboards or their W/L and just play to ruin the fun for teammates

Fixed for you.

On a serious note – there should ban from PvP for week or so for behaviour like this.

Lol’d if you think a ban would work. People could simply adjust their protest to giving 1% effort instead of 0%, and it would be expedited as they “accidentally” fell through the windows. “Oops bad dodge lol”

kirito.4138:

L2P Skyhammer and it be the eziest map to carry/win

TIL carry/win is equivalent to fun

Thank you for the valuable insight. I will make myself successful and famous with this and include you in my memoirs!

kirito.4138:

Should try soloq if u want to pug

Good idea. Oh look it’s Skyhammer. Time to AFK.

Jeknar.6184:

DaveGan.8065:

By fighting for yours, do you mean join +550 PPT server for free (and transfer back the same day) in the first few months of the game? Staying up late for Australian PvDoor karma train? Because this is how most of us did ours, until servers started recruiting for more coverage, transfer fees/cooldowns were implemented, and ratings became more stable.

Cattlepult bugged in Diessa? 99.9% world complete? Just keep transferring servers until you find one that isn’t!

But these newer players who are hopelessly stuck on one color every week? Screw them because we already got ours done, right?

You’re quick to assume things you don’t know… I admit my first 100% was easy since I was on BG during the infamous BG/ET/HoD week.

The first is the one that matters, and I seem to have nailed my assumption.

Further justifications and excuses can be placed in an abandoned and overflowing garbage disposal somewhere in Detroit.

Screw everyone else though, right?

nearlight.3064:

Blix.8021:

Aomine.5012:

nearlight.3064:

The solution is simple OP. Get everyone’s WvW guilds together and WIPE THE KARMA TRAINS!

That’s actually a great solution.
You can counter the entire worthless uplevels zerg with around 10 dedicated wvw people. Even condition spec works greatly in EOTM!

Also, it takes one well placed AC to drive back an entire EOTM zerg from the keep

Wiping uplevels is boring. You don’t even get much loot because they die so fast that you can barely tag them. The loot you do get is light and small loot bags a lot of the time. And if you wipe their zerg a few times, they just leave to find a better overflow or go pve.

If we were in it for the loot, we’d go to touch ourselves in dRy ToP or join a skip tazza SE p1 box farm party.

We’d do it to try and get Anet’s attention and to fight against the karma train mentality of the game.

I read this as: “Of course it’s boring and the rewards suck. That’s why I’ll type inspiring sounding words to get others to do it for me.” How honorable…

If you were in fact serious, though, please hurry up then. I’m ready for ANet to end the use of karma as we know it and meaningfully attach it (and dragonite) to something more skill based than time based.

Jeknar.6184:

If I gotten 1 dollar everytime I hear a PvE’er cry about not being able to take green keep PoI/Vista, I’d be rich today…

Sometimes I wish Anet would just remove WvW from map completion, so I don’t have to hear the same QQ over and over again because my server is never green and we never get the green keep in Eternal Battleground. But then again, I rather have them to suffer what I’ve suffered instead of seeing the map completion being handed to them. I’ve had to fight for mine, everyone that have it fought for it, so they have to fight for theirs aswell.

By fighting for yours, do you mean join +550 PPT server for free (and transfer back the same day) in the first few months of the game? Staying up late for Australian PvDoor karma train? Because this is how most of us did ours, until servers started recruiting for more coverage, transfer fees/cooldowns were implemented, and ratings became more stable.

Cattlepult bugged in Diessa? 99.9% world complete? Just keep transferring servers until you find one that isn’t!

But these newer players who are hopelessly stuck on one color every week? Screw them because we already got ours done, right?

IsilZha.3608:

DaveGan.8065:

Then they should implement something to fix it. If switching teams gets more rank points than not switching, of course people will switch. If rewards for winning are 250% the rewards for losing, of course people will want to win at any cost. When you can spend 3min12sec on the winning team to get the same reward as 8+min on the losing team…

Yeah, I’ve suggested before it could be a simple fix: Don’t allow players to switch to the other team once they’ve picked one. Even if they drop back to spectator, don’t allow them to swap to the other team.

The vocality of the teamswapping you reference is a good thing, not a bad one. Announcing “I’m abusing the system because I can” and making “Afk Cuz Skyhammer” characters in Solo Queue bring these issues to discussion much faster than stealthily switching teams or putting in 1% effort on Skyhammer to bypass the AFK check.

Stop asking players to be honorable. “It’s just hotjoin”, and if you don’t switch teams someone else on the team will. Why him and not you instead?

Just because you can exploit something, doesn’t mean you should. Who wants to play with someone acting like a kitten like that? So if you play a game of chess with a friend, and it’s clear he’s about to win… you flip the board around and claim victory? Do you then just announce “it’s not a tournament, it doesn’t matter.” I mean clearly in that situation if you don’t do it, the other person will, so why not just do it?

You’re presenting a false dichotomy here. Hotjoin exploitation happens with strangers. I’m sure if you played it with 9 friends you guys would do whatever possible to ensure teams were as even as possible.

The issue is that this isn’t the case, so you have the prisoner’s dilemma. Exploit or get exploited. Welcome to all of society. Honor isn’t tracked, and rewards are purely based on win-loss.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

DaveGan.8065:

Hamster.4861:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Valid point, but in my experience it doesn’t matter if you have 1,000 or a 10,000 toughness high DPS builds will cut through you like butter.

Wrong. learn about how armor works plz.

butbutbut

A 7000 backstab hit on 1000 toughness (~2k armor) would hit 4667 on 2000 toughness and 1273 on 10000 toughness!

Those numbers are like almost identical!

Not spamming #2 repeatedly would be a good start to changing those numbers but, I won’t coach you since you’re clearly an expert.

TIL toughness mechanics vary on skill used…

I suppose since you claim the damage kills you anyways I can run a more realistic representation of what you must be doing.

70000 damage from zergdiving with buffs or allies with 1000 toughness is 46667 damage with 2000 toughness and 12727 with 10000 toughness.

Hamster.4861:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Valid point, but in my experience it doesn’t matter if you have 1,000 or a 10,000 toughness high DPS builds will cut through you like butter.

Wrong. learn about how armor works plz.

butbutbut

A 7000 backstab hit on 1000 toughness (~2k armor) would hit 4667 on 2000 toughness and 1273 on 10000 toughness!

Those numbers are like almost identical!

I want to keep playing your game Anet and company. I want to push more of my friends into buying it. I want to buy more gems. Just show me SOMETHING.

Introducing Skyhammer Exemption Package, 8000 gems! Never get Skyhammer in your Solo Queue again!!! Help us to fund development for even worse maps!!!

IsilZha.3608:

The problem is, hotjoins are terrible because of players like him, who then use the excuse that hotjoins are terrible so it’s totally okay that they do it. PS: I have video of this abuse. The guy would even announce he was switching.

I’ve called out several others I’ve caught blatantly team swapping when their team starts losing, and they all end up with the same “lol it’s hotjoin” and continue to be the plague that makes many hotjoin games awful and ludicrously lopsided.

Then they should implement something to fix it. If switching teams gets more rank points than not switching, of course people will switch. If rewards for winning are 250% the rewards for losing, of course people will want to win at any cost. When you can spend 3min12sec on the winning team to get the same reward as 8+min on the losing team…

The vocality of the teamswapping you reference is a good thing, not a bad one. Announcing “I’m abusing the system because I can” and making “Afk Cuz Skyhammer” characters in Solo Queue bring these issues to discussion much faster than stealthily switching teams or putting in 1% effort on Skyhammer to bypass the AFK check.

Stop asking players to be honorable. “It’s just hotjoin”, and if you don’t switch teams someone else on the team will. Why him and not you instead?

Make an achievement for doing all the mistlocks, with a fractal tonic or weapon chest at the end or something.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Chase.8415:

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

Look at the picture. He has 23 matches played. Please explain how that should be at the top of the leaderboards, especially when 8 of those are losses. It would be understandable if he was 23-0, but he’s not.

Because he obviously won against people with a high rating, possibly people in the top 30 or 40. That is how someone can reach the leaderboard with a less than 50% win rate.

Because he won against high rated players that should make him a viable candidate for rank 1? No it should not. This rating/ranking system is terrible, and how players are placed is even worse. This is how every ones matches will go if they don’t lose there first placement matches, they will get an auto rank 1 because this system flawed.

I am not saying it should be perfect, but it definitely should not be this far from it.

How about this far?

http://i.imgur.com/j8z8o9s.png

xil.5140:

Something needs to be done about people who afk in TPvP queues, it screws the rest of us. I’ve noticed more and more people afking shortly after the start or the whole match. Especially on Skyhammer people will just completely AFK and 9 times out of 10 that team is going to lose because of it. Just now I got out of a match where someone on my team swap to a character named “Afk Cuz Skyhammer” and did just that. Please ANet do something about this.

Would you rather they put in 1% effort to get past the AFK test? At this point you’re not going to convince people to take Skyhammer seriously.

Please don’t move in the direction of using something like personal score (~actions performed) ever again.

We don’t need to further encourage players to cap points with 3 people and zerg for kills while discouraging more defensive playstyles.

The main problem is that the reward gap between wins and losses in hotjoin is too high, taking the focus away from optimal play and moving it to optimal team selection and manipulation. Just close that gap since hotjoin matches don’t matter anyways.

Evan Lesh.3295:

At what point are you seeing players join teams from spectator mode? Rewards are based on time played on a team, so are people forgoing partial rewards to be on the winning team?

There is a 300 point discrepancy between winning and losing. With 8 minutes (iirc) required to get full credit, you need 3 minutes 12 seconds played on the winning team to get the same reward as 8+ minutes on the losing team.

Perhaps it’s time to accept that hotjoin results mean either very little or nothing at all and reduce the difference in reward between winning and losing teams? Instead of 500-200, perhaps something like 400-300 or 350-350? At 400-300 it would require 6 minutes on the winning team to get the same reward as playing 8+ on the losing team. An added bonus to this would be reduced rewards to farming servers that can get everyone autobalanced to the winning side.

To encourage serious participation on a losing side, perhaps a small reward (25-50 points) should be given for overcoming a large (100+ point) deficit in the match.

If we are talking about the spirit of the game and immersion, consider [EotM] to be a network of spies and scouts. As color allegiance changes every week and cannot be considered voluntary by most measures, allegiance to the guild and allegiance to the self may conflict with allegiance to you who may be the same color as me (a hypothetical me, as I do not play EotM anymore). As a result, we defect and choose guild and self over you.

As far as a solution to karma training, I would like nothing more than for karma to be removed as a currency. I and other players do not want to feel forced to grind and train our way to progression.

If, on the other hand, rewards for defending were increased, people (us included) could continue to game the system, with “spies” and “scouts” in place to warn well in advance of incoming attacks. Every objective would be a virtual fortress, and we would simply take turns trading kills to trigger the defense reward.

This won’t stop until “trains” stop being one of the best pathways to rewards. On the other hand this is a problem for ANet, as they intend for Guild Wars to be a casual game with most of the rewards and progression attained through casual play.

So long as the more hardcore players continue to be bottlenecked into these casual modes, we will continue to game them to our advantage.

Trolling and being/feeling trolled are based on motive and perception, not action. This is not a single player game, and so your actions will bring consequences from the others you affect in the game.

You are being ganged up on because you are a bigger obstacle than the entire other side, and the other side considers you to be a bigger obstacle than everyone else on your side. With this common enemy, why wouldn’t they gang up on you, even if there might be a weakly stated and never enforced rule against it?

It is nice that players can finally do something against those whose motive is to derail. Back when Queensdale and Crown Pavilion were being trolled, there was nothing to be done because there was no kick button and no way to attack other players.

mathras.2450:

DaveGan.8065:

TheGrimm.5624:

People organizing to avoid fights though, that turns my stomach. Go to some PvE zone if you are completely unwilling to fight.

If only said PvE zones and dungeons weren’t nerfed so hard. If only flipping keeps wasn’t the best (and one of the few) way of obtaining dragonite, and flipping all objectives the best way of obtaining karma. People will optimize whatever can help them get to where they want faster, and EotM is no exception.

Full disclosure: I am in said guild, but I have not gone back to Edge for almost a month since my last alt hit 80. Just like I have zero issue with you defending, I have zero issue with coordinating to avoid fights and maximize rewards. Additionally, if your presence is hindering the progression of people on all sides, I have no issue if they band together to try to stop you. When pressure from defenders is too great, we would take a break or find another overflow. It’s recommended you do the same when your defense keeps getting shut down.

So you’re advocating enemy teams working together to kill members of your own side, because they dare to play the game as intended?

Don’t forget this is a multiplayer game. If you get in the way of people’s progress they will look for a way to run you over or knock you out.

As far as playing as intended, your motives can, will, and should always be called into question. If you’re killing bosses early in Boss Blitz, if you’re throwing down flame rams 1200 units from gates, if you’re deploying 100 ballistas in keeps, if you’re defending in EotM, people will try to determine why you’re doing such a thing.

There is not much ANet can do against trolls, because they can simply fake ignorance and say they’re new. This is why there will always be things outside of the scope of the lettering of the rules. As a result players have some expectation of policing themselves. That’s why the answer to you question is yes, the ends to justify the means.

Now stop crying, get off your fake moral high ground, and learn how to better place your own ACs and other siege.

Linking to a deleted reddit post in your signature of you impersonating someone in [EotM] isn’t helping your image any. Your cherrypicking of this post and complete ignorance of my previous post (written on your request, I might add) is also noted.

TheGrimm.5624:

People organizing to avoid fights though, that turns my stomach. Go to some PvE zone if you are completely unwilling to fight.

If only said PvE zones and dungeons weren’t nerfed so hard. If only flipping keeps wasn’t the best (and one of the few) way of obtaining dragonite, and flipping all objectives the best way of obtaining karma. People will optimize whatever can help them get to where they want faster, and EotM is no exception.

Full disclosure: I am in said guild, but I have not gone back to Edge for almost a month since my last alt hit 80. Just like I have zero issue with you defending, I have zero issue with coordinating to avoid fights and maximize rewards. Additionally, if your presence is hindering the progression of people on all sides, I have no issue if they band together to try to stop you. When pressure from defenders is too great, we would take a break or find another overflow. It’s recommended you do the same when your defense keeps getting shut down.

mathras.2450:

I’ve asked you before to stop trying to derail this thread. Why are you continuing to do so? This is about karma training – not a single guild. Yet you’re coming in here with very defensive comments – it seems a little suspicious.

If you have something to add to the discussion, be my guest. Perhaps you could offer a solution to the problem at hand? Decreased rewards for capturing objectives, or diminishing returns? Or as I suggested in the original post – if Anet intends this to be a PvE map, they could remove the ability to kill other players?

Thanks

As I and others have said, your thread got derailed long before my posts and this thread already should be closed.

As far as your second point goes, I’ll bite. Since this game is not in a growing phase, I don’t agree with proposals to nerf anything (unless they are counterbalanced by other buffs). As far as a solution goes, I think it would need to be making other aspects of the game more viable.

The EotM ktrain is done for 4 reasons: karma, dragonite, WXP, and XP. In fact, many players feel “forced” into EotM, especially when they are doing it for karma and dragonite.

Karma training requires that karma is needed in quantity, and that specific ways of obtaining it are vastly superior to other ways. One solution to this issue is to introduce it to PvP, buff it for map exploration/completion, and reintroduce it for doing dungeons. Another solution might be the removal of karma altogether.

Dragonite comes from WvW/EotM keeps and world bosses (many of which drop just 3-5). To clear the dragonite farmers out of EotM, perhaps the lesser world bosses should drop 10-15. Alternatively, reward dragonite when a keep is defended, in addition to it being flipped and reflipped.

Experience comes very fast through events in EotM. Dungeons are still nice but they have been heavily nerfed. Boss chests from dungeons are now once a day. Karma from them has been virtually eliminated. World completion rewards cannot compare either. There are various methods to address this.

• Tomes of Knowledge could be more widely available outside of sPvP.
• Boss chests from dungeons could be reverted.
• Map completion rewards could give enough experience overall to provide 5-10 levels on completing a map, rather than 2-3.

WXP is also obtained in EotM, but I don’t see anything wrong with that at the moment.

tl;dr: Guild Wars 2 is no longer a growing game. Rather than nerfing ways to level and gain progression, other areas need to be buffed so people do not feel bottlenecked into content they may honestly rather not do.

heatherlea.7186:

How do I know? Because I was just in EOTM right now and saw him with his guild tag popped as I alt tabbed to see this thread.

You mean you added him to your stalker list to recognize the account? Treebeard The Swift is not even a valid character name, much less anything close to a character name Treebeard The Swift.9620 plays. Your BS and motives have been exposed yet again, but keep trying.

heatherlea.7186:

And you are trying to devolve this conversation about other players instead of the core issue is the cheating that is going on in EOTM.

Your impartiality is highlighted for all to see. It’s a bit beyond the speculated impartiality of Treebeard (you have yet to address a single point he made other than speculate about his guild membership).

To be honest, as this thread includes a link to a reddit post impersonating Elaina Eldee, it has already been derailed and should be closed.

heatherlea.7186:

Treebeard The Swift.9620:

The thing is, i’ve been in quite a few eotm maps with [eotm] commanders

I’m sure you have been, since you are in that guild. So why are you pretending to be impartial in this discussion?

Why does membership in the guild remove his neutrality on analyzing an issue?

How do you even know he’s in the guild? Either you are (or have been) in the roster yourself, or you are grasping for straws. The former would undermine your own impartiality by your logic, and the latter says quite a bit about your motives and credibility.

Additionally, ANet’s removal of your last thread has shown their feelings on the matter.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

So I suppose the post on that guilds website was fake too?

Anyone can make an account and join the website. There is not even an application process. Simply hit “join” with your Enjin account. The forum posts are still there.

I don’t think the backlash today is against 3 way ktrains; it seems to be against the (false) “mass reporting” allegations. Your red herring attempts are pretty adorable though!

Again, though, if people are feeling trolled/griefed they should have every right to report it to ANet, who will sort out the issue from an neutral point of view.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

DaveGan.8065:

Sinbold.8723:

Wow, I just read the Reddit post linked above. Someone actually admits to violating the ToS by using match manipulation? Mass reporting a defender is also against the ToS. Defending is not a reportable offense. My jaw is still in my lap.

Neither is griefing Boss Blitz runs. Or intentionally killing QD champs out of order. Or reaching for thinly veiled excuse and kicking people at the end of dungeons. Joining rated PvP matches using troll builds and trying 10% is also not against the ToS.

Looking that the post history of yesterday’s OP (ANet deleted thread) will reveal at least the one of the above, as well as a general motive.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/unicorngirl-1487/showposts

Defending is not a reportable offense, but reporting for trolling/griefing motive is not uncalled for.

Will you fault casuals with a sore in their rear who report people for requiring lvl 80s and zerker meta for dungeons too? They feel it goes against the spirit of the game, so they report it. We disagree with their feelings but we can see some validity in coming to that conclusion.

If people feel the motive is not defending but griefing/trolling then why can’t they report and let ANet sort it out?

So you are ok with what is going on?

I would not encourage people to do it on a mass scale, but I don’t see a problem with it if the people doing it are feeling trolled/griefed. Reporting =/= ban.

UPDATE: I just talked to Elaina himself and he’s confused as hell. It seems someone made a reddit account, impersonated him, and made stuff up.

Sinbold.8723:

Wow, I just read the Reddit post linked above. Someone actually admits to violating the ToS by using match manipulation? Mass reporting a defender is also against the ToS. Defending is not a reportable offense. My jaw is still in my lap.

Neither is griefing Boss Blitz runs. Or intentionally killing QD champs out of order. Or reaching for thinly veiled excuse and kicking people at the end of dungeons. Joining rated PvP matches using troll builds and trying 10% is also not against the ToS.

Looking that the post history of yesterday’s OP (ANet deleted thread) will reveal at least the one of the above, as well as a general motive.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/unicorngirl-1487/showposts

Defending is not a reportable offense, but reporting for trolling/griefing motive is not uncalled for.

Will you fault casuals with a sore in their rear who report people for requiring lvl 80s and zerker meta for dungeons too? They feel it goes against the spirit of the game, so they report it. We disagree with their feelings but we can see some validity in coming to that conclusion.

If people feel the motive is not defending but griefing/trolling then why can’t they report and let ANet sort it out?

Compare/contrast this with 21 karma weapons?

Those were punished using an obscure catch-all “no exploit” clause. Is this immune to that clause, or is it up to ANet to decide to enforce it somehow?

It’s also meant to be easy for an outnumbered red group to take.

spoj.9672:

Thats curious lol. I remember several months ago people were argueing that soldier was better and it achieved higher effective power than knights. So basically the guy who was telling me i was wrong was wrong himself. Shame i was too lazy to do the math for defensive gear myself. I assume ferocity has nothing to do with this?

Guy made a reddit post with 0 traits 0 runes 0 sigils 0 food 0 spreadsheets 0 calculations shown. Soldier has an advantage here, but pretty much any slight tickle will turn things around.

Said post got a lot of upvotes and became scripture.

EDIT: Ferocity change did hurt knight more than it hurt soldier, but not nearly enough to turn things around.

Furious.2867:

Except I’m rich and you’re not.

Interpersonal skills

I don’t expect socially inept people to understand where I’m coming from.

The irony.

My sides.

haviz.1340:

I’m not disagreeing, just saying he disregarded major input to simplify calculations.

I don’t think he dismissed them completely, as he did mention that most buffs are power-based, which give more benefit to Knight. He also offered a calculation showing how/why Knight received more benefit. I do agree he could have done a bit more to address (directly) why the calculations could be simplified, rather than just doing it.

That said, I do disagree with your earlier statement that the difference between Knight and Soldier is miniscule, and I was somewhat trying to demonstrate that with my last post. Difference shoots up to about 10% with traits, runes, and buffs.

haviz.1340:

You miss 1400 stats points because you disregarded traits. That’s quite a lot considering the difference between Knight’s and Soldier’s is miniscule.

Traits skew the discussion even further, as pretty much any offensive trait spec will heavily favor Knight over Soldier (the only stat where Knight falls short of Soldier relatively is precision, and this is easily offset by 1.) traiting into power, and 2.) 4 of the 8 professions having ferocity in the precision line as well). I think we can agree to ignore defensive traits, yes?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13KQ8cDeTNifn7vsJzuJkWto_5fyifDpKhmentXtod1w/edit?usp=sharing

This was an old spreadsheet I haven’t updated, and the crit chance equation off by 10 precision. Effective power without the universal % multipliers for most armor is compared with most trait distributions is shown, along with the ability to make your own adjustments to anything (food, runes/sigils, traits, buffs, etc).

tl;dr — Soldier is a one-trick pony and thus has reached more of its potential than Knight, so it will gain less with traits and support from the party.

Effective power (basically what Guang is calculating) is very simple. Equations below for anyone to use.

CritCh = 1/100 x Floor[(Prec – 822)/21] (**Add 420 to Prec for fury, or 0.20 to CritCh directly)
CritDmg = 1/100 x (150 + Fero/15)
EffPower x [CritDmg x CritCh + (1 – CritCh)]

Everything else about Guang aside, his figures comparing Knight/Soldier here looks correct. Knight does have lower effective power without buffs, but will easily come ahead with some/full buffs.

The only reasonable exception to Dishonorable for me is if you are doing Team Queue with a full pre-made team and they all check a box indicating they are okay queueing up with you. Solo Queue and partial Team Queue (even 4 should not be enough) should absolutely be out of the question.

This exception may also be iffy, and calls into question whether the Dishonorable debuff is intended as punishment (deterring people to willfully leave their matches) or as protection (ensuring 5v5 matches for everyone else).

Each track is divided into 8 “mini-tracks”. The weapon box is at the end of the even numbered mini-tracks. The token boxes are are also in the even numbered mini-tracks but are obtained mid-mini-track.

Thaddeus.4891:

Its true that frailty is not that bad. Since we are talking about a pug carrying build, it make sense.

But your setup don’t work at all for a Phalanx Warrior. Strength is useless since you will already have a constant 25 stack of might and Battle and Energy only proc when you switch weapon, an action that you almost never do in the middle of a fight on a Phalanx build since you need to stay in GS, and again the Might from Sigil of Battle is useless in a phalanx build.

That 25 might depends on an uninterrupted rotation. This is harder to achieve while doing something like fractals, and some things in general with PuGs. Strength sigil makes dodges and cancels affect the might output a bit less.

Additionally you have the PuG dungeon situations where the ele does know to drop FGS but the party will not stack might. The faster you get to 25 stacks (or even 15+/25+) the faster the fiery exploit sword will exploit.

Ideally swapping off of greatsword won’t be necessary, but sometimes it’s needed for either you or the team (maintain more cripple uptime, use horn for vigor/weakness/cripple removal). Battle sigil ensures there’s not a total loss of might during the period Forceful Greatsword can’t be used.

The teams have a limited time to prepare for the tournament. Time that could be spent practicing builds and rotations now have to adapt themselves to accommodating unique communication circumstances that their rules otherwise left for granted (“please have TS and a mic”).

They are not worried about your ability to communicate with them. They are worried about their ability to communicate with you.

“It’s not you, it’s me.”

Does it suck that they didn’t even let you try out? Possibly, but if they already decided that it’s too much work to adapt to you then it doesn’t matter whether you’re asking for an hour of their time or a second. Even a second of wasted time is a second that could have been spent practicing or trying out someone else with no communication accommodations needed.

In another sense, TS+mic is like the Berserker meta of PvE. Is it possible for someone wearing PVT or something else to contribute more than someone running Berserker? Absolutely, but the ceiling is already lower on anything non-zerker. That player on the Seahawks will never be Tom Brady.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Seriously? Like everyone here has gotten a chest but me? This is baloney, Anet I call shenanigans…

~360

2 pink rings
2-4 exos (don’t remember all)
0 pink armor
0 pink weapon

You’re definitely not alone.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ryn.6459:

One last question if you dont mind.
Im short on dragonite, so right now I only have one ascended GS. What sigils do you recommend me? So far Im using force+accuracy.
Thx in advance.

Night + Force is pretty standard. It don’t work well for day time dungeon meaning CM, HotW and Arah. Usually, ppl don’t really care about CM and HotW, while they either don’t do Arah that often or have a special equipement for Arah with Force + Undead slaying.

Otherwise, Force + Accuracy is pretty much the best all around setup. That work well in all dungeon and fractals.

I would throw at least an honorable mention for the Frailty.

Any party that can’t quickly hit and maintain 25 vuln stacks will benefit from it. If you can maintain even 3-4 stacks with it it will be a major boost to party DPS.

I run Frailty+Strength sigils on my greatsword, Battle+Energy on axe/warhorn.

How many of the 4v5s were on Skyhammer/Spirit Watch?

I know people who will refuse to play those, and I’m getting close to that point myself

Behellagh.1468:

DaveGan.8065:

Behellagh.1468:

a flipper

We are not talking about one single flipper, but a population of them. Reducing the expected cycles/transactions (in case you need a stat lesson, expected value is an weighted average and we are speaking in decimals, not whole numbers) an item goes through before becoming a final good would create lower average prices, as every cycle adds cost and inefficiency through the 15% TP tax.

The rest of your scenario is again irrelevant because you either chose not to read or decided deliberately to keep pushing your own narratives which are irrelevant to the discussion.

Until you first said flippers cause prices to increase, this post, I didn’t have a problem with anything you were saying but I can’t agree with that notion. There isn’t anyway they can raise the average price when they can’t control supply. Too many other players including other flippers will keep the price in check, within a trading range, due to undercutting. Prices increasing, and I’m talking average price, have more to do with changes in supply rate or actual demand rate due to content changes than a segment of TP users trying to squeeze a few % out of the inefficiency of players selling to the highest bidder and buying from the lowest seller.

You haven’t read anything I’ve said because you continue not to address any of my points or questions. You simply say I’m too dumb to understand your point or this thread.

I think you, Aidan, and perhaps others seem to be going on the notion that flippers bring “equilibrium” to a market. On the other hand, I believe the population in this game is big enough to easily bring things into equilibrium, even if the buy-sell spread is wider.

As far as my conjecture that flipping does increase costs, it is based on my notion that while flipping narrows the buy-sell gap, it does not create an equilibrium; rather, it simply shifts the old one.

Every transaction is 15% inefficient due to the TP tax, and flipping adds an additional transaction. In the end someone has to eat this cost, and this is why I mentioned reducing flipping. I should add that I am not looking at flipping from simply buy item A, sell item A. It is probably more like, buy item A, modify a bit, sell item B (in the realm of crafting or promoting/refining).

Perhaps I should have simply stated that I think it would be more efficient to encourage more people to promote/refine/craft their own raw mats.

As far as your other points and questions, I didn’t address them because either I agreed with them (definition of speculation, etc), or I felt they were deviating from the topic of flipping vs average cost/efficiency.