Guild Wars 2

HazyDaisy.4107:

I just want to know where all these disadvantaged new players were 3-1/2 weeks ago.

But, let’s say 1 million people purchased the game over the last 3-1/2 weeks and chose wvw as their introduction to GW2, a bit odd considering they’d have to level first, but whatever, we need the bodies so come on in.

Look at that, new players can get a legendary backpack at level 350…what’d I get at level 350? Oh yeah stomped more often by increasingly bigger crowds of people while wearing exotic level and below gear in T6 or T7. Man, those new people have it rough.

Read previous post about the issue with timegating and comparison with other modes. Not gonna bother repeating.
Short answer: the rank is not the issue, it could be higher for all I care.

Ansau.7326:

Deihnyx.6318:

Can you stop judging people for the way they play or the reason they play?

Seriously. Such an hypocrisy is baffling. If you dont care about rewards why do you care so much that others want them. It makes no sense at all. All you’re doing is pushing away potential people who could be hooked up while encouraging half afking from people who will get these rewards no matter the time grind.

Be happy the same behavior wasnt observed in pvp and pvp vets werent requiring everyone to retroactively play the previous seasons before enjoying the rewards of the current season. Would have been funny.

Arguments have been continuously given as to why the current system is punishing/unfair and all you come back to is that booo new players are playing for rewards. Stop it and debate fairly, without prejudice. Learn about how the other modes work with timegates and maybe you’ll finally understand the core issue here.

Yes i play for reward and yes I have fun with that charr guild I found and none of their vet is being half as condescending about their right to anything. I will grind the ranks but I will not stop pointing out the design flaws with locking timegated rewards behind a full job of hours.

In wvw PLAYERS ARE THE CONTENT, not rewards.

In any PvP game all that matters is the community, everything else is secondary. That’s why sPvP has died, the game mode is flooded with so much pve content that sPvP got full of people that didn’t care about competitiveness and the competitive scene didn’t have place anymore. That’s the reason why wvwers are so harsh over pvers, we want to keep wvw as it is.

The reason why people don’t want pvers in wvw is because they want WvW content: zerg fights, roaming, RvR, pvp scene… not pve. Why are pvers so selfish that they have to force game modes and their communities to cater their desires? Isn’t pve big and vast enough that now competitive game modes have to be turned into your desires?

Seriously, anyone saying they come to WvW for rewards or skins shouldn’t put a foot into it, is doing nothing good for the game mode.

So let me get this straight.
As a person who bought the game, who played a lot of the other modes of this game, I come back to WvW, properly gear up to WvW using that shiny little reward gold I earned from PvE/PvP. I join a guild and go raid with them for hours everyday, and go roaming during downtime.

But so because my initial reason to do it is rewards I bring nothing good to it?

Yeah. Makes it clear who’s causing this mode to die.

Let me know what secret ritual needs to be accomplished to stop being seen as filthy bags.

Can you stop judging people for the way they play or the reason they play?

Seriously. Such an hypocrisy is baffling. If you dont care about rewards why do you care so much that others want them. It makes no sense at all. All you’re doing is pushing away potential people who could be hooked up while encouraging half afking from people who will get these rewards no matter the time grind.

Be happy the same behavior wasnt observed in pvp and pvp vets werent requiring everyone to retroactively play the previous seasons before enjoying the rewards of the current season. Would have been funny.

Arguments have been continuously given as to why the current system is punishing/unfair and all you come back to is that booo new players are playing for rewards. Stop it and debate fairly, without prejudice. Learn about how the other modes work with timegates and maybe you’ll finally understand the core issue here.

Yes i play for reward and yes I have fun with that charr guild I found and none of their vet is being half as condescending about their right to anything. I will grind the ranks but I will not stop pointing out the design flaws with locking timegated rewards behind a full job of hours.

You know people can be in the game mode as well as the rewards. Both aren’t incompatible.

And again. The reason why people are playing is their own business. Shouldnt be that much of a big deal to anyone.

Also. Nobody is asking for everything to be given out within a month (ascension takes at least 2 seasons btw) but there is a middle ground to be found between that and the current base pip.
Do not believe in people who keep saying new players want insta rewards. This has never been the main complain here. I for once think 350 is way too low of a rank for Warbringer, i have issues with timegated token requiring a lot of work per week, turning the fun of that mode to painful grinding and encouraging idle play rather than active play.

VaaCrow.3076:

This thread is literally just 3 people throwing a tantrum because they’re being forced to finally enter wvw, posting the same thing over and over, not learning from anybody who bothers to respond, staying completely ignorant.

If you can’t just sit down play the game and have fun then i’m seriously wondering what on earth you keep bothering to post for, just pack your bags and leave,. these forums and this game will be alot better for it.

Deadhorse.gif

The same plague can be found on both sides.

There are definitely new players that want the moon and this doesn’t help coming to a peaceful understanding, however there’s also a small number of people who are more than happy to circle back on what their vision of wvw entails (reason for playing: not your business) or straight up lie about people wanting insta rewards.
If you are one of those who think the current system works as intended, and at the same time are using either of these tricks in your argumentation, you are contributing to the same posts circling back.

Believe it or not there are people, including vets, that are answering with interest, even admitting something could be done about base pips. They’re just being neutral and don’t play on prejudices.

Debunk arguments with counter-arguments. Even if 5 people tell you you shouldn’t play for rewards, that doesn’t make them “win” a discussion.

At that point I’m simply waiting for someone with enough integrity and knowledge of the game as a whole to argue the specific points and solutions I brought up. Still hoping

I’m gonna keep comparing with others modes, since this is the most factual example we have to demonstrate why the current system is punishing/unfair.

First of all, if you’re immediately gonna say “this is not the same thing, this is not pve/pvp, it’s gotta be different”. Either don’t or explain why it has to be different. This is not acceptable to keep spamming that, hiding other arguments, if you’re not providing any to support your case. Everyone put time in the mode they like the most, you consider WvW is more time worthy, explain, prove it, otherwise it remains an opinion, and just an opinion.

Secondly, the REASON why people want the rewards is off topic, there is no “good” or “bad” reason to play the game. That again is only an opinion, everyone paid for the game and is allowed to enjoy its content for the reasons they see fit.

Ok. So the problem is that they introduced a new currency (well, old but they reintroduced it as a permanent thing) that is limited on time. You only get a certain amount a week.
- The Fractal equivalent is pages, not level 100 with AR ascended. You need to get to rank 2 to start getting your 2 pages/day. 7 hours a week, being very, very generous
- The Raid equivalent is LI, it’s 13 a week. The time required is based solemnly on skill. From 3 hours to infinite.
- The PVP requirement is… playing during pvp season, the ascended shards are not timegated, repeating the last chest doesn’t remove them. An hour everyday (7h/week) is more than enough to complete all the chests in 2 months.
All these modes have one thing in common: Whether you’re new to the mode or not, you can get exactly the same amount of that specific currency today. And this timegated currency is something that is there to keep you playing a bit everyday/week, it isn’t meant to make you play that mode 3-6 hours a day.

The real token of your past experience is your rank. Not the WvW tickets. Again comparing with the other modes:
PVP: Your PVP rank: Gives you access to additional finishers (that’s all they get yes, not specific advantage)
Fractals: Access to higher fractal tiers, more ascended stuff, fractal backpack
Raids: You simply get the kills faster if you’re good/experienced. And you are ahead with LIs.

Now you can tell me sure but so vet raiders have indeed an advantage! Yes but not an unfair one. If you want to start raids today, you can get your 13 LI within the same time as anybody else. You aren’t asked to go back to only doing w1 and earning w1 rewards for a few months, then do w1-w2 for a few other months, etc. Everything is readily available to you.
That is what you are asking with this pip system you are calling fair, you are asking a new player to retroactively “give their time” to the WvW god before you can start earning the same timegated rewards as the others.
If you do a strict comparison to the other modes, this is indeed unfair. It does punish you for not having played earlier by adding a second gate, beside rank. A new system is in place in June 2017, everyone should be able to put the required 1h/day to cap the timegated currency.
The immediate answers are either “you want insta rewards!” or “we deserve this”. No, for that specific part, you don’t deserve it more than anyone else. It is also HYPOCRITE to say that people are basically asking for insta rewards. They WILL have to grind the ranks anyway, just like you did. If they’re slow they’ll get it in a few years anyway. You aren’t simply asking for an advantage (you already have it) you are happy to push new players further down.

What would NOT be unfair (and is already in place for the most part) would be to gate the rewards behind high ranks, or any form of non timegated, permanent advantage. The difference then if that people can catch up at their own speed on ranks, while being on par with the other modes when it comes to timegated rewards.

If you absolutely have to keep the rank pips, that’s okay, but make sure that the base pips allow for reaching the timegated reward within a reasonable amount of time, if you want more grindy rewards after that, that is fine, but the WvW tickets must remain in control and accessible within a reasonable amount of time.
Hell, if you spent less time fighting people for trying to get a fair experience, you could be asking for stuff that would be ACTUALLY good for you. PVP chests get a renewed 20g per last chest, if you had forgotten.

Also one bit of personal opinions. Some vets are absolutely marvelous and welcoming, I must say the experience in game has been really good so far.
But some other people here on the forum… I don’t know, I feel that they are mainly here to ensure they get as much as they can out of this, no matter if others are left out. Why aren’t you welcoming this renewed interest for the game mode you play the most? What exactly is your problem with making this mode less discouraging, you who keep pretending you don’t care about trivialities such as rewards?

Mel.3064:

Seera.5916:

If they put in a similar title for owning all Legendary weapons from the base and a similar title for owning all Legendary weapons from HoT, then I’d be fine with a own all legendary armor from HoT title being added.

But there’s nothing special about legendary armor that’s not special about legendary weapons so it wouldn’t be fair to reward getting all of the armor pieces but not getting all of the weapons.

Legendary Armor is special because you are required to raid 12 weeks for one set and a total of 60 sets for all 3 sets and spend thousands of gold in addition. Legendary weapons are not timegated or skillgated by anything last time I checked.

Well LI should be easier to get overtime, with more raid wings being added.
It’s a lot faster to get LIs today than it was when HoT came out.

Also, Astralaria is timegated by a stupid journal collection

I mean… I agree but I don’t think that happening. I don’t see them adding 3 new classes at the same time and I also don’t see 3 new extensions coming up in GW2 lifetime (even though I wish so)

I’d be fine with just rank gated, even as a low ranked myself.
If T3 armor turned out to be a precursor to legendary like I think it will, it would probably be rank gated pretty high.

However a full year of 175 tokens is not enough to get all T2 weapons, T3 armors and backpack. It’s closer to 2 years.

Ritualist, Paragon, Dervish.

But unless they add a new class per armor type, which is not going to happen, I’d rather have them as elite classes.

Ritualist has to happen though. You hear me Anet? MAKE RITUALIST GREAT AGAIN

I am happier with the current implementation of living story.
Sure, it doesn’t come as fast, but that’s not an issue. Knowing that I have time to do it let me enjoy other content of the game, and other games in the general.

Sure, the maps are pretty much abandoned when a new one come out… and I don’t think that’s necessarily an issue. When new content comes out you still get the excitement of new content, lots of players around talking about it etc. It’s still there, the only difference is that players who are late into the game can still come back to it later on. Not a big deal.

Also non repeatable content is a nightmare for any completionist or AP hunter. It’s definitely a strong argument for them (myself included) to leave the game if something just stop being doable. I don’t mind them asking you to pay for living story you missed, but everyone should be able to catch up on the previous content and AP, otherwise an achievement score makes no sense.

My big issue however is the fact they abandoned dungeons. I do like fractals, they’re fast dungeons and they’re cool, but dungeons had (still have) so much potential, as demonstrated by the aetherblade path. I would love for them to slowly rework them one by one and offer a new challenging experience for 5 players. Raids are very nice, but the game is missing more content like Nightmare CM, stuff that can be done with only a small group of friends.

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Sarika.3756:

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Horrible comparison. ANYONE that does T4 fotms gets rewarded with lower tier chests, the only thing needed is AR, which is gold gated NOT SKILL gated. Even if we were to take what you said on face value, you can progress fast enough to get enough AR to do T4s to gain all chests, again by skillful play. The same can’t be said for WvW newer players spending a inordinate amount of time to get awarded reasonably.

So long term goals are now unreasonable?

It’s not like the first reward given out by the tickets requires rank 2000. There are definitely items that can be purchased while progressing up through the ranks.

The tickets are timegated behind a large amount of hours you need to do per week in order to cap on the timegated reward, the first few tiers reward very, very little. It doesn’t compare to fractals. The only timegated currency in fractals are pages and you don’t need to be “high rank” in fractals to obtain them every day (and it doesn’t even take an hour/day).
The timegate with the pvp backpiece is 3 matches a day. Again, something that can be done in less than a hour.

When you venture on the field of comparisons with other modes, it’s very easy to demonstrate that there is no other mode currently that requires such a time investment for a timegated reward. PVP is definitely not putting that much pressure on you, you have 2 months to complete the pips, and even then, the currency (ascended shard) is repeatable.
The closest comparison would be legendary insight and raids, without skill/experience (call it what you want) you can spend a lot of hours if you want them all, but with proper experience/carrying, it takes you only a few hours / a week. The big difference is that since pips are passive only, no matter how good, how active or how invested you are, you are not rewarded according to what you do, but what you did or did not do before.
It always needs to be repeated but giving special advantages to high ranks is absolutely fine/normal, but a week of gaming in 2017 should be rewarded with the rewards of 2017, and not proactively requiring time from the previous years.

Last thing… let’s not forget… it is actually faster for players joining raids now to get their LI (13/week), where it used to be only 3, 6, and 9 LI a week.
With WvW it’s the other way around, players joining now have a much harder time.

Long term goals are reasonable, so long as there no punitive timegate. Gating a reward to a rank is a much better design than gating it being a limited per week currency. There can be a timegated currency but it needs to be there to keep players active everyday, not to have them grind for it.

I’ve played about 30-35 hours a week to reach diamond and reached about 80-100 as well. I don’t have an exact number but it seems on par what the numbers you get.

Radjan Majere.4208:

No system will satisfy all of us, because we all have varying principles about what the ideal state is. We should be having 2 different debates – 1 about the principles, and one about the execution against the principles.

Some people want the new reward system to be attainable in the same time period for someone who ignored WvW for years and someone who played it exclusively despite kitten rewards. Others want to be able to maintain their more exclusive flashy stuff for longer before every Average Joe can get it and make it not “exclusive.”

Everyone should accept that no system will satisfy everyone’s inherently conflicting principles, and that every system is going to have some fundamental unfairness to it even if we agreed on most of the principles.

Despite all the differences expressed here, I think it’s fair to say that none of us think ANET nails the balance perfectly on the first time out, so it’s fair to say there might be room for improvements.

I’m opposed to any change that eliminates the value of higher WvW ranks entirely, because I know many of us have spent countless hours in WvW with really 0 rewards – before WvW reward tracks, you could spend literally hours in this game and make VERY little progress even on WvW rank, if you were scouting towers that didn’t end up getting attacked, or spent time repairing walls after a siege, or escorting yaks… I LOST money many nights back when we paid gold to upgrade structures for the benefit of the team. I got 4 years worth of rank gain advantage on a new WvW player, sure, but I didn’t get ANY skirmish tickets for all those weeks – new players will start getting skirmish tickets while they’re leveling up to bronze and gold (and come on, it’s not that slow to get to bronze or even gold, at which point you’re only a 1-3 pips/tick behind most regular WvW players out there – not that many people are diamond rank).

That said, that doesn’t mean the advantage has to be the current system or none.

I’m platinum rank (+4) now after years of casual WvW play and my advantage over a rank 0 amounts to less than the pips you can get for judicious use of outmanned buff. That tells me the outmanned buff is probably too strong, even if not always available. That someone who is Diamond (which is pretty rare) earns 2 pips/tick more than me seems pretty reasonable.

Full-pop servers probably hate that the system incentivizes people to semiafk and goose participation while taking map slots from more active players.

Maybe the advantage in pips-per-tick is too high a percentage of the overall pips – maybe baseline pips for all should go up 1 or 2, but keep the current rank gaps. Maybe the skirmish tickets should skew more to the lower end, so that the advantage in what is reasonably attainable is smaller, even if it does exist. Or maybe that shouldn’t slow down at the top, but you shouldn’t even expose the top chests to people until they ARE a certain rank (making lower tier players focus more on getting THEIR max rewards, after which their focus should on ranking up instead of maintaining participation over time with minimal activity). There are hundreds of ways to adjust the mechanics, all which will have some fundamental unfairness to it.

New WvW players need to respect that the advantage for long-devoted WvW players should exist as one of those principles (though again, we can debate the right principles), and Veterans reaping the advantage shouldn’t dismiss charges that the execution is flawed to reflexively defend ANET’s first real appreciation for your devotion to the game mode.

Very well done.

As a beginner (well, bronze), I absolutely agree that your experience has value. That you get WvW-focused rewards faster only make sense. Just like having pve raid experience will get you kills faster or being properly geared for fractals.
I also agree that the issue lies with the balancing of this advantage, or rather, the disadvantage it puts on the players who are genuinely wanting to get into that mode.

Lots of veterans welcome new players since it brings some activity into their mode, but a vocal minority – be it in game or here – are hostile to them because of the reason why they are joining. There’s also new players that are expecting Anet to take back all the given advantages… both of these behaviors won’t lead anywhere.

All I’m asking from these people is to be open to suggestions to make the experience better for everyone. You don’t have to agree to everything, but you can certainly put your pride aside for a second, quit with the sarcasm such as “pvers want insta rewards” or “your experience doesn’t mean quaggan” and understand that as of right now, getting even to silver rewards you with very few tickets, and still require a very high amount of dedication, giving a strong incentive to either “farm” the remaining hours or just give up on a rather interesting mode.

The suggestion I’ve been defending since the beginning was never really commented or debunked:
Don’t give more pips to high rank, give them discounts on tickets (or/and other stuff). The difference is psychological, You’re effectively given the same reward for the same amount of hours put during a specific week (more or less given whose server is winning) but high ranked still get stuff faster, and new players can choose to bust their * off to catch up or spend more tickets for the same stuff.
It also partially solves the afk problem, since high ranking will have a significant impact on their rewards in the long term.

Cyninja.2954:

The timer is lenient enough to allow for multiple minutes inbetween inputs. Now this might be a minor anoyance for other players in pve (and even here it has become a more and more visible problem) but in a competative enviroment as wvw it can negatively impact a big part of the active playerbase. So no, the game does not amply protect from people abusing the system. It’s become so bad that even in pve we get constant “is afk farming allowed” threads on a regular basis.

I understand it has an impact, however you can reasonably assume that every server has their own “half-afker”, it might not balance out completely, but I’d be very surprised if one server had 10 afkers at time X while their opponent has 0.
It’s from personal experience but I haven’t seen a lot of afkers during prime time either (which is when afkers are the most impactful).

As for PvE, AFK farming is a whole other deal because your pet/minions do the job for you. No participation required, you don’t have to move, very low risk of dying. It is indeed a big issue.

Cyninja.2954:

No one is talking about people waiting at camps or doing their own thing. The issue is with players waiting out their contribution ticks and staying semi-afk for multiple minutes in the starting area. With other new pip farming methods finding more and more ways into the game.

As Kovu said in a previous post, Anet couldn’t have given more incentive for afker to want to afk-grind more. They’ve locked rewards behind quite a lot of weekly hours (other topics discuss this already) that you get whether you’re truly active or not (hence the “working as expected” answering a specific person who never stops saying that )
You will never prevent people from wanting to farm for rewards (nor should you, everyone can play for the reason they choose), so rewarding people for being active is the logical answer to afking.

Cyninja.2954:

If you have to take a break of more than 5 minutes, leave the area and let others cycle through. If you are on a tier 1 server, be prepared to be active as much as you can and finish inventory and merchant management at the end.

If you have to take a break of more than 5 minutes, you get kicked anyway
But I see what you mean.

What they could do is simply reducing the participation debuff/afk time before kick when there’s a queue, since it’s mostly an annoyance during prime time.

I simply stated that there is no such thing as afking without the use of a bot (which is illegal to use), because the game requires you to refresh your participation. For people who don’t care about participation, they automatically get kicked pretty fast anyway if they’re truly afk.
If people are just taking a small break, whatever the reason, they are within the acceptable boundaries set by Anet and I find people trying to get them kicked laughable. Next thing you know you’ll get kicked for just talking to a merchant for too long.

Now, whether you choose to follow a zerg, do roaming on the other side of the map or mindlessly flip camps nearby, all these scenarios are contributing to the server. Whether some people think it is not ok to wait near a camp to flip it has more to do with elitism than anything in my opinion.

This is getting better and better.

Please highlight where I am including myself in that description.

Because seriously, I get it people here play pvp and love jumping at each other throats, but that’s really pushing the concept far here.

Jayne.9251:

You all were booted to character select. It was glorious. And it opened up the queue.

And you are assuming I’m an afker because… ?

So you report everyone you see not moving at camp?
Interesting. Knowing that pretty much everyone pip/reward down after they’re done with their run, including commanders, and knowing you can just be afk bio or discussing about a strategy, reporting someone not moving would be the equivalent of… oh yeah, assuming again. Exactly what you’re doing here.

Jeez what is the problem with you people.

Not my motherlanguage, sorry for the confusion

Giving permanent discounts is different imho because you are offered two solutions: If you’re low rank you can either spend more of them for a reward, or wait, grind up ranks, and then spend them.
In both cases veterans are winning, the only difference is that you can rank up at our own speed without effectively “losing” tickets every week.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

No the 2K requirement is still total bs mindless grindfest which should be brought within reason.

First the backpack is only 350, which you can honestly reach within a month or two without killing yourself, so it’s on par with the other modes.
For the 2K armor, sure it’s a grind but on par with the grind we had to go through with pve raids, and you need tickets anyway, so even if they would lower that you would still not get it in shorter time.

You’re gonna have to rank up no matter what, that part is the dedication and dedication is what is locking these rewards. There is nothing wrong with that. The weekly reset/timegate is the only real bad stuff.

Bots are illegal and should be banned from the game, I don’t think anyone is gonna argue with that.

However players half-afking are just using the system to get the most of it, but aren’t doing anything worth “banning”. They still refresh their participation every so often.
Working as intended, right?

It could be a precursor to make it even with the raid legendary armor. Something tells me it might happen in the future but they’re just not ready to announce it.
And if they do, spvp players are gonna start complaining as well, wanting the same stuff to happen with their ardent glorious armor.

Personal opinion also, the triumphant armor has the potential to look a lot better than the raid legendaries, so I could definitely see raid players complain about that too

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Im completely 100% fine w/ 1st place getting 3 pips, 2nd getting 2 and 3rd getting 1, im talking about pips awarded due to rank. and how there is no mechanic in game which gives bonuses for doing “nothing” due to having high play time, both concurrently or previously. (exept new wvw pip system/rewards)

High ranks still need to put in a lot of hours, just not nearly as much as a low ranked.
But anyway, this isn’t the problem. And Anet will never take back an advantage they just gave to a population, they would riot.
Instead some of the solutions are:
- Increase base pip (incremental loyalty could work)
- Increase time (one week > two week or a month) before chest reset > give low ranks time to breath and high ranks get more repeatable chests
- Not give more pip to high rank, lower pips, and instead give high ranks perma rewards (discounts, fancy stuff etc).

Offair.2563:

Funny they complain about the rewards as lots of us have played this mode for years without them. Ya come with fractals as a comparison, a new player still needs to have ascended armor and the AR needed, unfair!

I personally don’t complain about high rank getting things faster. However your statement is incorrect.

High rank in WvW = level 100 fractal (and so ascended armor) => You can do that stuff at your own speed. This is what your 4 years of game give you instant access to.
Fractal pages = WvW tickets. Both are timegated and that’s the issue here. You can start grinding pages at T2, which only takes a few hours to get into. After that, you get a steady 2 pages/day. => When a chest resets in WvW, since most of the tickets are locked in the highest tier of the pip track, new/casual wvwers only get a small portion of it, the equivalent could be 0.5 pages in fractals.

The situations are not the same, fractals let you grind the timegated currency at the same rate as everyone within reasonable time, not WvW.

IndigoSundown.5419:

This is not at all true. Players who have played a lot of WvW are in no way forced to play WvW less because they will get rewards faster. That you think so reveals that your only interest here is the reward.

Ugh, What? Where did I say anything about “forced to play less”?
You don’t have to play as much as a low rank to get the same reward, how did you come to translate that by “forced to play less” ??

I did play many days of WvW after getting diamond, please do not assume things about people.

Serenity.6135:

Deihnyx.6318:

Firebaall.5127:

What’s next for you to whine about?

I’m gonna stop here. I’m tired of the condescending tone people like you keep pulling.
I’ll make it short: I think 40 hours is punishing new players for not having played the mode enough and punishing proactively is absolutely stupid. Nowhere else in the game does it even come close to that but whatever.
You think that makes me a “whiner”, I think that makes you a bragger, and I’m done with this stupid debate.

I will keep discussing it on TS instead, where people actually discuss about alternatives and solutions to benefit everyone.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

That said, I think a good argument can be made for increasing base pip acquisition and improving the distribution of tickets across the skirmish track rather than lumping them all into the final chest of each tier. I’m in favor of increasing the Commitment bonus (and gutting Outnumbered, it’s much too high) and possibly the server placement bonuses. That way, new/casual players will still have to put in time/effort, but progress will feel more consistent.

That’s really all there is to ask, so thank you for pointing it out. As it was said by pretty much everyone it is normal for veterans to get stuff faster and easier, just don’t gate it behind an unfair weekly timegate that literally takes years for casual or semi casual to get.

Lol keep throwing out these random numbers then complain about people not taking you seriously. If you only care about WvW now because you want some new shiny and want it easier to get, but think its unfair that you actually have to do the content in order to get it..yea…sure ok, then complain nobody takes you seriously…

As it has been repeated, nothing has or is stopping you from playing wvw, getting ranks or earning rewards. It does not matter if you are rank 1 or rank 9k, each player can only earn a certain amount of tickets each week. Coming on here with the attitude that you should have an easier time of getting rewards will not make you many friends. These are designed to be long-term rewards not something you grind out in a few days then move on to a new farm.

Not random. 3 pips is 40 hours. 2 pips is 60 hours etc.
For a beginner 40 hours is an optimistic average.
I will return the advice: Don’t throw random attacks if you want to be taken seriously. Read all the other threads and understand why people are talking and discussing this issue.

I couldn’t care less if I don’t make friends here of people who want their mode to be grindier than all the other modes of the game and have the balls to be condescending about it. Not everyone is that self entitled.

Firebaall.5127:

What’s next for you to whine about?

I’m gonna stop here. I’m tired of the condescending tone people like you keep pulling.
I’ll make it short: I think 40 hours is punishing new players for not having played the mode enough and punishing proactively is absolutely stupid. Nowhere else in the game does it even come close to that but whatever.
You think that makes me a “whiner”, I think that makes you a bragger, and I’m done with this stupid debate.

I will keep discussing it on TS instead, where people actually discuss about alternatives and solutions to benefit everyone.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

That said, I think a good argument can be made for increasing base pip acquisition and improving the distribution of tickets across the skirmish track rather than lumping them all into the final chest of each tier. I’m in favor of increasing the Commitment bonus (and gutting Outnumbered, it’s much too high) and possibly the server placement bonuses. That way, new/casual players will still have to put in time/effort, but progress will feel more consistent.

That’s really all there is to ask, so thank you for pointing it out. As it was said by pretty much everyone it is normal for veterans to get stuff faster and easier, just don’t gate it behind an unfair weekly timegate that literally takes years for casual or semi casual to get.

ThunderPanda.1872:

but…. you do get things faster if you’ve played for longer in PVE…. fractals, masteries, etc? I don’t see new players getting stuff before they have to, in your own word “grind”, their levels or mastery

That’s your rank masteries.
There is no weekly timegated behind an insane amount of hours in PVE, or PVP. in PVP the last chest is repeatable without skipping the currency.

Firebaall.5127:

Deihnyx.6318:

And what you guys don’t understand is that they’re not giving you more, they’re just allowing you to do it faster, and skip the brainless grinding.

Instead of fighting people who are fighting the grind, ask for better, more permanent rewards for your rank. New players are not responsible for the so called lack of rewards and it has nothing to do with the new system.

Ok, all new “PiP” related rewards are now tied directly to WvW rank. Better? No….you’d still be in here crying the same tune.

Yes. better. For a lot of reasons that have already been explained I don’t know how many times.
Ranks aren’t timegated and you can grind them at your own speed. 1 rank = 1 rank no matter the time you spend on it. 1 chest != 1 other chest. The first few chests are very, very low in tickets and it would take years to take anything worthy.
AND higher ranks actually encourage active play instead of just afking camps.

People are complaining about the fact that the weekly reset is ruining any chance of steady progress for new players or players who can’t put a job on it.

But sure feel free to think it’s all about crying and ignore all the arguments that were given.

Firebaall.5127:

What you fail to understand OP, is that WvW players have historically been under rewarded for their game time vs PvE players.

This is a nod to the dedicated players of this game type, and you have no right to complain about it.

And what you guys don’t understand is that they’re not giving you more, they’re just allowing you to do it faster, and skip the brainless grinding.

Instead of fighting people who are fighting the grind, ask for better, more permanent rewards for your rank. New players are not responsible for the so called lack of rewards and it has nothing to do with the new system.

Tom.8029:

WvW is an eternal battle and those who’ve committed the most time should be rewarded the most. The mist war will still be there tomorrow, whether you’re there or not!

Should be rewarded the most yes. By giving more things or locking rewards behind higher ranks. There are many ways to do it.
The only reward you get is less time in that mode you’re committed to play. It’s less a reward for you than it is a punishment for someone who wants to get started. Hence all the fuss about it.

PabbyGaul.9682:

I never get my diamomd chest. Im okay with that. Do you feel Im screwed too?

What’s your point?

You can choose to care about it or not, that doesn’t change the fact that there are legit players who wants to get into wvw, both for the mode and the rewards, and are getting discouraged by how unwelcoming this system (and some of its players) is.

VaaCrow.3076:

Deihnyx.6318:

VaaCrow.3076:

I don’t care about my rank either, just like i don’t give a rats kitten about any reward,the majority of the posts in these threads are hilarious, get over yourselves and either commit or don’t. not everyone has to pander to try and create the reality you want. I really hope anet stick to their guns on this, companies shouldn’t pander to the vocal minority. Just because you think 40 hours is excessive, doesn’t make it so, that is YOUR opinion. And as for seeing lots of afkers, you’re right, i do see some, and when i do i fire a report, just like pve people do for afk farmers there

Have fun reporting afkers who aren’t actually afking. Because they actually need to do something every 5 minutes or so

And yes that is my opinion that I defend, as it seems really obvious to me, it was also defended by some vets, but that is the whole point of the debate. However I just don’t accept “boo skin hunters are bad” as an argument.

Also, unlike many I did not propose any alternative that wasn’t a win for everyone, including vets (and especially vets actually).

I have an alternative, play the game, and get the skins over time. As intended.

I got to diamond on Monday. Wrong assumption here.
It’s not because I can get it myself that I automatically don’t want other players with less time to be screwed, guess that’s the difference between us.

Strider Pj.2193:

Deihnyx.6318:

wvwers could get that too… if vets were more motivated to ask for better rewards rather than a … time discount on their favorite mode.

Yep. But here is the thing. Many of us would rather play the game than come in here and QQ on the forum about how long it takes to get a shiny.

We are happy we are getting something and quite frankly many of us are happy that it takes our previous play time into account, AND isn’t something that someone can pop into, get in a month and leave.

So, see all of you out there!

It’s that other thread all over again.
Summary of the counter arguments:
- Players need to play the mode no matter what, the difference between 20 hours a week or 40 hours isn’t about commitment, it’s grinding.
- The currency is timegated, meaning that the people who want their reward are gonna farm the mode, effectively increasing the number of “afkers”, all of that because it resets every week.
- No other modes proactively gives you an advantage. That’s the big dark point here. You already get more stuff unlocked by having a higher rank, so you already have advantages. If tomorrow you were to start fractals or raids only your skill would determine how fast you get to the end, and not time. PVP has an initial commitment requirement, but it’s getting to rank 20: Not nearly as demanding as WvW.
- This whole system is done backward: If you play wvw as your main mode your only reward is… to play less. Quite baffling you aren’t asking for more meaningful rewards (discounts, special infusions aura, special high rank commander icon etc).
- This whole system is done backward (2): Instead of simply asking for a high rank for the backpack (ranks aren’t timegated), they choose to only ask for 350, and instead require a lot of grinding, effectively giving even more of an incentive for afk farming.

You guys have to understand that none of that is meant to screw the high rank players over, but on the contrary to not proactively punish newcomers.
They would just have to higher the rank of the legendary, give more permanent bonus to high ranks instead of time discount, it would be a win for everyone. Low ranks would still be required a lot of work but there wouldn’t be the very annoying weekly reset to screw their progress over.

VaaCrow.3076:

I don’t care about my rank either, just like i don’t give a rats kitten about any reward,the majority of the posts in these threads are hilarious, get over yourselves and either commit or don’t. not everyone has to pander to try and create the reality you want. I really hope anet stick to their guns on this, companies shouldn’t pander to the vocal minority. Just because you think 40 hours is excessive, doesn’t make it so, that is YOUR opinion. And as for seeing lots of afkers, you’re right, i do see some, and when i do i fire a report, just like pve people do for afk farmers there

Have fun reporting afkers who aren’t actually afking. Because they actually need to do something every 5 minutes or so

And yes that is my opinion that I defend, as it seems really obvious to me, it was also defended by some vets, but that is the whole point of the debate. However I just don’t accept “boo skin hunters are bad” as an argument.

Also, unlike many I did not propose any alternative that wasn’t a win for everyone, including vets (and especially vets actually).

reddie.5861:

wvw = pvp
pve = rewards

i really dont understand why people are so horny over some reward system, seems im one of the few who really dont give a kitten about rewards lol

PVP does have pretty good rewards actually. It gives quite the amount of gold and the ascended shards aren’t timegated. You are also given a decent amount of time for them (2 months) versus one week for WvW.

wvwers could get that too… if vets were more motivated to ask for better rewards rather than a … time discount on their favorite mode.

VaaCrow.3076:

If all you people play for is the rewards, i hope they buff the requirement to max rank so i never have to encounter people like you in wvw again, as you’d all rage quit and let us get back to playing the game.

Seriously, this thread has deviated from meaningful discussions to practice bashing.

Last time I checked we all paid for the game and rewards are part of the game. Some people get pleasure playing for rewards, so what? Who are you to tell us what “playing the game” means? Why do you think achievements are even a thing in the first place?
It’s only your opinion and not an argument by itself, and certainly not the divine morale.

Sure buff the requirements and then feel free to complain about all the afkers… and watch them throw the same argument back at you: Get back to playing the game, stop complaining about stupid practices of others.

See that’s the sweet irony here. You are no better or worse than people who are hunting for skins. Only your carrot isn’t skins, it’s your rank making you think it gives you the right to look down to people. If you truly only cared about playing the game, the pips system shouldn’t affect you. Let’s keep it honest here.

The argumentation was given many times, the grinding is way too high compared to the other modes and is gated only by time, not even by skill. Timegating something behind 40 hours of playtime has no justification, there is a middle ground between “instant rewards” and “mindless grinding”.
This is the only thing that matters here. It’s nobody’s business who is playing for what reason, we are all entitled to enjoy the game for our own reasons.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

Pip farmers are the only ones who see problems with pip acquisition. Those of us who have played the game, continue to play the game.

Saying “I for myself no longer really want to do WvW normally and i used to only play that mainly, all i do is log in and farm pips dont even care if the garrison is being lost as long i am like in outnumbered map for increase my pip acquisition” is something that a dedicated wvw player would never say, but a shiney hunter.

There is nothing wrong about being a shiny hunter. And reasons why pip acquisition is too low was already discussed in another thread, in details.

The difference between putting 20 hours a week in WvW and 40 is not dedication, it’s pure grinding.

I feel like people here are either perfectly aware that WvW is much more demanding and are willing to discuss ways around it, and there are others who are going to be toxic to any consensus no matter what, even when they’re still largely winning this and could get even more out of it.

It also came to a point where highlighting fairness compared to others modes is automatically considered invalid “because it’s wvw”. Because somehow this wvw playtime is worth more, nevermind how grindy it is. Feel free to believe that, it’s gotten too ridiculous to even answer anymore.

There is no need to repeat things that have already been said. People arent gonna change their mind at this point.

I can grind the 40 hours. And I will if needed, and yes some of these hours will probably be flipping camps while watching a movie. Because unlike what some people say, this is all this 40h system is encouraging: grinding.
And yes. Meanwhile the pack doesnt even require silver rank. More untested non sense. But whatever. The vets are happy.

PabbyGaul.9682:

The difference in rewards and time it takes dor newbies vs vets to gain them is INTENDED. Its not a mistake. It was designed that way knowing how long it will take. Working as intended.

Working as intended doesn’t always mean working best, as it was shown many, many times with anet reworking older systems, reworking pvp pips, reworking pve traits, etc. This is hardly an argument in favor or against the current system, it’s just stating what the current system is right now.
For example, in game pretty much everyone agrees that the outnumbered pip is too much. If we never discuss anything, then let’s just admit everything is perfect and be done with it.

I dunno, if I was a vet I would spend less time trying to fight my right to “play less” my main mode and instead ask bonus that benefits me directly rather than punishing others.

Bloodyjoker.4327:

Don’t sit there trying to afk the outnumbered bonus or complain about rewards. Get gud wvw steroids and play the game mode. Don’t spend 40h a week. Just dedicate 20h a week and if you miss mithril/diamond for 3 weeks, you’ll be a grand total of… 1.3 week behind. You need the levels to even spend the tokens to begin with!

It’s just gonna be another argument about the “working at intended”. The rank needed for the backpack is… 350. Mid-bronze. By just afking flip camp/sentries you will get to that by the end of your “grinding” journey.

So let me ask, or reask again. Do you want people to play decently for 10/20 hours and afk for the last 20, or wouldn’t it make more sense to increase the rank required for the backpack, and instead reducing the amount of pips required per week?

Also 60 levels for 4h, 1 rank every 4 minutes? That is far from being an average. Maybe you get lucky and blobs of people come dying at you but defending, capping does not level you up that fast, booster or not.

Turk.5460:

I asked earlier in the thread and am still curious as to why you think this should be used as a comparison. The only connection these items have is that they are legendary back items. I think this would be a reasonable comparison if the game modes were all similar, but they are not.

Because we’re talking about fairness. If pvpers are asked to spend x amount of dedication on a mode to get something, it should be about the same on their own mode. It’s a personal opinion of course.
That’s if you care about shinies of course, which I’m pretty sure you don’t :P

Turk.5460:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Wvwers seem very entitled all I keep reading is that they deserve this. Tell me then if we go into raids together to get legendary armor, do I get it 4xs faster then you? If not then why not? I have thousands of hours more in that game mode then you do.

How would you feel if all the LI’s you got before legendary armor came out…suddenly disappeared when the update brought legendary armor? And then with all those thousands of hours in raiding, someone brand new with no xp was promised a spot in your established group, barely assists in the kills, or even just dies/afks upon engaging, then got the same LI’s as you?

Except your time didn’t disappear, you didn’t lose a rank or all the advantages (masteries) that came with it. You gained the ability to access T3 armor before everyone else (which is fair).
Also with raids, we knew very early on what would be the requirements: 150 LI for the legendary armor. If you wanted the armor at release date, you knew exactly what you had to do and could plan accordingly.
Someone brand new in raids is theoretically able to still get his legendary armor within 3 months, either by learning fast or getting carried. Same with fractals. And none of that require a steady 40 hours a week.

Anet had so many ways to give WvW vets some very nice treats. Heck locking the backpack behind a 3k rank would have made more sense than the current situation. A minimum rank is not timegated and infinitely better, AND you can’t just AFK it or you won’t reach the rank.
Think of all the other nice things you could get instead: Permanent discounts on WvW items, discounts on Waypoints (an incentive to PvE), cheapers infusions or ability to buy prenium infusion with special roXXor effects at rank 5k, 7k, new prestigious commander icon for high ranked… etc.

But no instead, they just allow you to play less of the mode you actually like by giving you more pips, while forcing everyone else to play an insane amount of time if they want to get the legendary within similar time than the other two backpacks.
It’s just… done backward lol.

Kovu.7560:

Reward pips for actively accomplishing things in wvw instead of passive things like wvw rank or the outnumbered buff. Moreover, so long as pips continue to be tied to the world’s most lenient participation mechanic, AFKHeroes taking up que spots will continue to reign.

Agreed, that would probably lead to max capping faster BUT would also be a much richer game experience imho.

Ashen.2907:

Instead of increasing base pips I would like to see bonus pips for participation tier. A hardcore wvwer will be at tier six pretty consistently and so receive the same number of pips they do now. A more casual player who has fewer hours per week to play, but who really seeks to contribute when he does play, would see an increase in pip generation. This might also disincentivize afk pip farming, particularly if the outnumbered pip bonus were trimmed back some.

Haha we were actually discussing it with some guildies yesterday. Make T3 easily reachable but have it take quite some time to reach T6, and rewarding T6 with higher pips. Great idea too.

Strider Pj.2193:

Again, no one will explain Why maxing the tickets out each week should be easily obtainable?

We do. By saying that 40 hours is not just uneasy, it’s ridiculous.
14 hours-ish (I’m fine with 20) is not “easily obtainable” either but is on par with the other modes.

So we basically agree that base pip needs to be boosted. I’d be fine with 20 hours, it’s significantly better than the current situation and still requires a big investment.

Everyone wins!

Turk.5460:

You’re only handicapping yourself if you think that it is a necessity to finish it. The completionists will max tickets every week, regardless. And due to their dedicated time spent doing so, they will obtain their rewards faster. The casual players will finish chests casually, and casually obtain their rewards at a casual pace, since they are the ones choosing to only play a few hours here and there. This is all incredibly fair.

Social life/Long job hours/outside recreation, etc? – This is the weakest argument out here, and I’d rather not see it again in threads like this. No one is forcing anyone to play this video game, and if you feel as though it is encroaching on another aspect of your life that you love, then STOP PLAYING.

This isn’t about obtaining armor for the sake of it being armor. Its about obtaining shiny new skins. If a WvW player just wanted exotic armor, its incredibly cheap to buy them with badges of honor.

We got it, vets feels that they retroactively deserve the world, and some vets (not all, I know at least one here who is quite nice and understand the issue) are quite hostile towards new people wanting their piece of the cake.
Pretty much everyone here agrees that vets deserve to get their stuff faster. That is NOT the problem.

But incredibly fair? Enough with that.
I agree that complaining for 14-16 hours/week would be debatable, it’s about 2 hours a day, which is within the range of time you can expect people to have. And that is ALREADY a big commitment, on par with what you’d expect from Wings of Ascension/Ad Infinitum
But 6, 8 hours a day? No. Nowhere near fair, no matter how pretty you try to make it look like. You can play less of course, but less it takes significantly more time (we’re talking years) compared to the same tier of rewards from other modes (= 2/3 months).

If you think the reasoning is flawed and WvW should require more time, please actually explain why, don’t just say it has to because WvW necessarily requires more.
If you can start from the beginning and get Ad Infinitum in 3 months, Wings of Ascension in 2 months, hell a Legendary armor in 3 months if you’re good, there should be a decent way to get Warbringer by committing to WvW for about the same time commitment/week. There shouldn’t be a pre-existing contract that triples your time if you did not commit. It should be the OTHER way around (via discounts for high ranked).

Please again, explain how this reasoning is flawed.

Some additional maths, because maths are fun (not really)
A “casual” – as you name it – player starting WvW now and playing 10, 14 hours a week and getting 35 tickets will have to wait more than a YEAR AND A HALF. This is what you’re asking players from other modes who have a normal life.

So yes, you will keep getting that same “it’s taking a full time job” argument till Anet addresses it, or till WvW players are too tired of afkers farming the remaining 20 hours to make up for this dumb requirement.

Ayrilana.1396:

Phantom.8130:

Deihnyx.6318:

Long term goals are great!
However they have to remain achievable.

Just….. gonna put this out here. Originally, for the titles, someone would have to play 24/7 for around 8 years straight to get the yak slapper title. 56 years to get the title for attacking SM. Someone broke down the math a couple years back, which was pretty eye opening. They eventually changed the requirements. But… yeah. That’s… how long term WvW rewards roll.

By comparison, 14 weeks doesn’t seem too bad now, huh?

Rewards are very much achievable. You just can’t have every reward within a short amount of time.

I feel like no matter how many times numbers are repeated there’s always going to be someone saying it’s too short.
2 years if you’re doing every chest every week. Double, Triple that if you can’t get them all every week.
If you think that’s too short, I give up. But really in this case, don’t blame people for afk/flipping camps outside of primetime because this is pure, brainless grinding to ask for that many hours a week.

Phantom.8130:

Deihnyx.6318:

Long term goals are great!
However they have to remain achievable.

Just….. gonna put this out here. Originally, for the titles, someone would have to play 24/7 for around 8 years straight to get the yak slapper title. 56 years to get the title for attacking SM. Someone broke down the math a couple years back, which was pretty eye opening. They eventually changed the requirements. But… yeah. That’s… how long term WvW rewards roll.

By comparison, 14 weeks doesn’t seem too bad now, huh?

8 years wow… that reminds me of some gw1 pvp titles…
But yeah 16 weeks is only for the backpack
And again I don’t mind the two years, and I don’t mind high ranks getting things faster, I’m just an advocate of not having timegated stuff requiring crazy amount of hours per week, aka more than you would ask a regular WvW player.
All the love !

Long term goals are great!
However they have to remain achievable.

The game is not exactly brand new, we can assume it will live another 3, 4 years maybe? More I hope. But anyway. If you play “at your speed” and put up 14 hours a week, 2 hours a day, which is already quite the dedication (and I hope wvw vets would stop calling that “pvers”) it would still be far than enough at the end of the journey.

And that is the issue here. It’s not that you need to catch up, it’s that the timegated stuff you’re gonna need in mass is mostly locked out till you catch up. And that is unfair. Any new player should be allowed to put up their time every week, and slowly catch up to the regular WvW players.

Again, just give discounts to high ranked, that is far more efficient and doesn’t put time pressure on everyone to complete their chest. A maximum of 10 to 20 hours a week (depending who wins) should be more than enough to be proof of “dedication”

revox.8273:

this is amazing… how people want to have it all.

I DO enjoy the mode, I played it for hours this week with commanders, had fun and all, in bronze so it’s not like if I had started yesterday either, that doesn’t change the fact that wvw tickets are timegated (unlike ascended shards in pvp) and as such requiring that much time a week is simply unreasonable.

Reminder if you want to “have it all”:
T3 skins + T2 weapon skins + legendary backpack = almost 2 years of farming tickets. That’s if you get to diamond every single week.
You’re gonna tell me it’s not reasonable to say that 40 hours a week is excessive?

You guys are really ignoring the core of the issue, or are refusing to see it. It’s not hard for anyone to see that the core requirement is way higher than it should be, way higher than any other mode.

So yes, keep you ranked bonus, no problem at all, but they have to make the standard weekly requirement match what you would expect from a normal WvW player. And it’s not 40/50 hours.

Also please stop turning that into pve/pvp war. pve players never said you should not get loot. And not getting loot would have to be a discussion too. You get a decent amount of clovers, ascended loot and other stuff as well.
Also pve doesn’t necessarily mean “does not enjoy pvp” it merely means “pve mode as main mode” that doesn’t mean they never did wvw ever or aren’t enjoying it. It can also means they’ve played spvp and want to try something else, there are many reasons to be low ranked. NONE of them deserves bad-mouthing.