Guild Wars 2

bwillb.2165:

Not so much, no. It’s a game that’s going to have bugs and lag, and you shouldn’t really punish someone for lagging out.

What I do miss, however, is proper risk vs reward balancing. Right now some of the best items come from crafting, which is 0 risk, while uniting Tyria and taking out an elder dragon gets you a few lv 78 greens.

Agree about lag, and that was truly frustrating (and still is), but I mean… death doesn’t really mean anything in this game. It’s not “bad”, its just inconvenient. It’s almost as if lack of any understanding of the game and/or you character’s abilities is just… fine. Yet it’s an MMO, so if you , and everyone else you encounter, don’t know anything about anything and just rush in… well, ok then. Just keep doing that and you’ll win eventually.

And if you damage your stuff, you just have to pay in “time spent” to repair it.

It’s just flat to me. Add to that the fact that no matter whether you truly bother to know your part or not, if you just put in the hours, you’ll eventually be geared up enough to be “average” and therefore capable and you have a game (not just this one but seemingly all of them these days) that is an enforced gear check.

Sure, there’s no grind for gear here. I get that, and in some ways even enjoy it. But in the end, if all you have to do is spend the hours to get the gear, and the gear basically automatically overcomes the content… why bother?

Don’t get me wrong, this is the most beautiful game world ever built. But to me that just isn’t mattering any more. All I have to do is wait and my gear will win for me if I can mash a few buttons in sequence (at least in pve).

That’s exactly the problem with WoW.

and as for pvp… well, I’m inexperienced if I’m honest, but the reason for that is that pretty much any 3 on 1/2 will win, especially if part of the “3” is one of the holy trinity of THIS game.

I’m not directly opposed to the idea of the trinity, but I admit to hating to wait for groups when one is missing. Having said that, I’m also opposed to groups failing because nobody knows what they should/can do.

Anyway tl;dr: lag sucks, but games with zero consequence for sucking suck too.

I know the title is a bit odd, and I don’t mean as in some kinky S&M kind of punishment, but the kind where things like “death” had consequences that mattered and real skill showed itself simply by the fact that you leveled?

I’m not saying anything like “omg. punish me!”. Please don’t take it that way.

But I was talking to a mate today about why we just don’t care about games anymore, and it came down to, “they’re just too forgiving. Even if you have skill, you can’t show it.”

The talk came round to original Everquest. Loss of experience on death, potential loss of all your gear, ridiculous danger in basic travel, “meditation” to regain mana meant looking at a book on your screen for 15 minutes while you couldn’t move, mobs didn’t have “leashes” and could/would chase your through an entire zone if you kitten them off, no instant travel, no mounts, etc.

And the weird part is… as much as I hated it back then, I found that I kind of missed some of it now because every game that I’ve played recently is… dull.

Anybody else, or am I just some kind of weird old masochist who thinks that if you spend a hundred hours of your life at something, it should feel like you did something, rather than just experienced something?

Good to know.

Can we also ask who approved the script that led to him being hired

I only ask because while I thought his personal performance was fantastic, the lines he was forced to perform were… less than stellar.

So while I love the actor, I think it’s fair to say that I disliked the dialogue, and am less than pleased with the writing.

Thanks.

Best: tough one, but if forced I’d have to go with “stuff they did to keep the world lively at level cap” (instanced nodes, deleveling, cooperation with nearby people).

Worst: “Hand of the Designer Showing”. Mob placement, “obstacle” placement and spawn rates in this game are the worst I’ve EVER seen in any game. It’s so obvious that so many things were placed exactly where they were to slow you down that it drives me crazy. It’s so bad, I almost can’t play any more. There’s this BEAUTIFUL world to go explore and every kittening square inch of it is designed to either irritate you, confuse you or bore you so you’ll slow down. Pitiful.

Almost.

1 is supposed to be there, but really isn’t. It’s not that you get nothing from lower level content, but to say its relevant is a bit of a stretch as implemented. But this will probably get tuned.

I’d agree with you that factually, pvp, wvw and dungeons exist. Do you actually “get” them? Hmmmm. Some do, some don’t. There are bugs/exploits/problems with each of these that make people not want to do that content, so while it may be technically available, it’s not really “ready” for them to get.

The rest of both lists is pretty accurate imo, but your final assertion that there is no carrot on a stick is simply incorrect. There are carrots, there are sticks. They’re just different colors and sizes than other MMO’s.

This game is different, but not different enough to warrant all the hooplah about it’s revolutionary new this and that, and “game changing” ballyhoo.

It’s another MMO with a few differences from still other MMOs.

That’s all.

I basically think of them as armor that has a chance to buff occasionally. They take a shot or two for the team (mobs LOVE to kill them for some reason) then go bye bye.

I’m not sure what they were supposed to be like, but given that I can’t tell when/if they actually do whatever they do… yeah, I stopped using them completely and try to focus on other skills that I’m more certain actually work.

You have enough to make a deposit?

:D

On a more serious note, it would be nice to have all the currencies despositable, like dungeon tokens, once they get the account bound thing done.

Not really second thoughts, just quite a few first thoughts (e.g. things I thought I would see in the game) never happened.

I got a lot out of it and overall, I’m happy.

I won’t be playing much for a while. Far too many bugs/tweaks/bots/irritations still to be worked out.

I’ll come back occasionally.

Oh, and +1 on the headband thing. I look like a reject from a 70’s basketball team and can’t fix it.

So after reading this whole thread, the consensus seems to be something 1/10 like Orr.

And 7/10 who had an opinion want more level 80 areas.

Granted, this is just the forums, and just a tiny survery.

But… I’m willing to bet that this means that since these are game design professionals, soon (10/1/12 maybe?) there will be several new 80+ zones released.

I hope so.

Because the one that’s here seems to be almost universally hated. So best case is “new surprise” content.

Worst case is, “we tuned what’s there to suck less.”

Meh. I’m not convinced about this game at all anymore, much less enthused or convinced that the developers want to deliver what the marketing hype promised.

I’ll wait. We’ll see.

Porky.5021:

Derpinator.2894:

I just hope you never procreate or vote.

You’re the one who just threw yourself off a bridge. Not sure you should be telling other people not to procreate or vote.

No. I pressed a button. And on most other “skills” it would be smart enough to realize I didn’t mean, “Hey, let’s leap off a bridge because it looks GREAT! And, that’s the… best looking way to position ourselves for… the next best looking thing!”

So I maintain my argument. If you think this is good, or that skills like “automatically attack everything in range, even that helpless moa that’s just standing there eating… whatever moas eat” is good…

Never mind.

I’m laughing too hard to finish now.

ituhata.6830:

Derpinator.2894:

Just “did what I wanted” and got thrown off a bridge because my #3 skill (whatever the hell it’s called) shoved me off.

“Learn to play!” you’ll say.

Um… no. That’s not learning to play. That’s learning to deal with the failure of the developers to realize it’s a role playing game. No one, ever, EVER would hurl themselves off a bridge unless they intended to.

So it’s not lack of skill. It’s kitteny design. I should be able to hurl myself off a bridge. But unless I choose to, it shouldn’t happen.

This is reason #4,708 why what was promised wasn’t delivered. Was there ever a “you won’t hurl yourself off of bridges” promise?

Nope.

But if I have to explain why this fundamental and forced game mechanic is kitten broken to you, you deserve the game you got, and I wish you well in it. I just hope you never procreate or vote.

I’m sorry but people die from doing dumb and unintentional things everyday. Driving. Working. Even fixing things around the house. You may not have meant to do it, but that’s what happens when people get careless or aren’t really concentrating. Sorry if you were expecting an invisible wall to keep your character from leaping backwards off a bridge.

You mean like the invisible wall to keep me from swimming into water that’s too deep?

Or the invisible wall around mobs that let’s them hit me when they’re facing the wrong direction?

Or the invisible wall that prevents me from finding a way to climb that mountain range in my way?

Or the invisible wall that surrounds thieves when they die?

Or the invisible walls that suddenly crop up when a blade of grass or a 2" high barrier blocks my long bow in wvwvw?

Or the invisible wall the keeps me from climbing over a “fence” in every city in the game?

Or the invisible wall that appears when I use a “combo” that turns my axes into frozen bullets of death?

Or the invisible wall that blocks the camera that magically floats around me while doing jumping puzzles?

Or any of the other 10,000 invisible walls in this game?

Can you be more specific about which invisible walls don’t make sense?

Im gessing u don type gud. so nice to meet u 2.

bots iz in evry mmo, so don break the gam for non botz. nun of uz rushed to 80. we jus played and got ther and was sad cuz it like sucked.

I dont want you to keep goin cuz ur not makin sence.

gw2 promis was 2 be sumthin diffrent but it delivrd same as evrybody els but pretended 2 b diffrent.

good talk

Just “did what I wanted” and got thrown off a bridge because my #3 skill (whatever the hell it’s called) shoved me off.

“Learn to play!” you’ll say.

Um… no. That’s not learning to play. That’s learning to deal with the failure of the developers to realize it’s a role playing game. No one, ever, EVER would hurl themselves off a bridge unless they intended to.

So it’s not lack of skill. It’s kitteny design. I should be able to hurl myself off a bridge. But unless I choose to, it shouldn’t happen.

This is reason #4,708 why what was promised wasn’t delivered. Was there ever a “you won’t hurl yourself off of bridges” promise?

Nope.

But if I have to explain why this fundamental and forced game mechanic is kitten broken to you, you deserve the game you got, and I wish you well in it. I just hope you never procreate or vote.

I’ve realized that improving the playability is secondary to forcing play in the acceptable manner. So I’m going to do… stuff. For a while. Or nothing. Or both.

Maybe that’s the design philosophy. It’s impossible to tell.

But as far as investment in this game, desire to return, desire to buy expansions or gems or anything off the trading post…

Gone.

Just thought I’d share my thoughts for others just starting and hoping that what was promised in all the marketing hype will be delivered.

It might. But you’re going to have to wait until the “scourge” of bots is dealt with, and about 1,000 other irritants.

So, for now, go find something else to do. Come back in a few months if you can remember to. Log in occasionally and chill out in the world.

Care?

Bad idea.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

The system is not intended to punish players who manage to beat a chain very quickly through their skill. But if that group then decided to start speed clearing that path, it’s supposed to diminish their returns.
It’s use is as more of an insurance policy against future exploits or bugs.

It is currently not our plan to outline how the DR system works, because doing as such provides those intending on exploiting the system with bits of information they could use to circumvent it.

So what you mean to say is, “Being good is good. Until it’s no longer approved. And we won’t say what approved means.”

I’m not a dungeon guy. I think they’re badly designed. But this is… I don’t have the skill to articulate it. I think “cuz kitten you, that’s why” pretty much covers it.

Not good.

Dogblaster.6713:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Dogblaster.6713:

All i just saw for past 2 days was .. Arah 2 bosses speed farming tokens.
- This is not why i am playing guild wars .. armor from explorer dungeons are ment to be prestigue, when someone has it, Everyone should know hes skilled and did spend a lot of time doing hard dungeon. Not someone who just repeated 2 first bosses, reset … etc

This patch was the best patch for past few weeks, stop complaining already. Those who are good and skilled already cleared arah and other dungeons on explorable mode and those who cry becuase they cant complete it, they dont deserve to. Learn your class, build proper builds and stop whining.

You guys just want all served on silver plato for free. Not going to happen in guild wars.

bye

No… People cry because ArenaNet punishes them for being “good and skilled” by implementing DR on dungeon tokens.

Either its DR or lock from dungeon like in every other MMORPGS. What will you cry next time about? … Come on …

Areanet atleast gave you opportunity to farm even when DR is up, your choice .. If they went with lock system you would complain anyways !

and btw.. Try harder next time

I don’t like farming dungeons. At all. I think I have total of 20ish tokens and am not bothered in the least by someone who has full dungeon armor while I don’t.

But if someone else does enjoy repetitive grinding, that doesn’t hurt me at all.

So tell me again why people complaining about running face first into a ginormous Developer Block is bad?

In my opinion, the designers are reacting to data, not players. This means they’ll be wrong most of the time because the data is broken by bots/farmers/elites, meaning a small subset of the actual population meaning that reacting this way ensures that the majority of the population will be unhappy with the majority of decisions.

And that’s a good thing how exactly?

xlilashx.2903:

JonPeters.5630:

All rewards are susceptible to our code that is dealing with people who are speed clearing dungeons. If you find yourself getting less rewards consider whether or not your rate of dungeon completion is extremely high. This did not get reset with the patch.

If you think you are running at a fairly reasonable pace post all of the chains you have run and the times to complete and we will file it to try and figure out if it is a bug. Please post accurate times, otherwise we cannot determine if there are in fact bugs in the system.

Thanks,

Jon

To be quite honest, this new ‘Diminishing System’ is quite stupid, if it means that we only receive 60 tokens on our daily then eventually drop to 8-6 tokens per run I would rather the old system back. Seeing as you state that depending on our time completion depends on how many tokens we get? Then explain the fact that some people get 60 while others only get 15.

Honesty we can’t help the fact that we are able to find shortcuts and breeze through dungeons quickly in order to obtain armor, its expected in any MMO. At this stage of the game many players are willing to grind to get their Dungeon armor, but not to the point where it will take them weeks/months, in the old system I already found that obtaining some of the tokens for my armor already took me weeks, why make it harder?

It may get to the point where people just forget about dungeon armor for their stats and just craft everything considering they all have the same stats and people will do dungeons at their own pace just so that they can trans-morph it.

I honestly don’t like the idea of changing the fact that we don’t recieve tokens from every boss; as many have stated if the group falls apart or say the dungeon glitches, we wasted time for nothing. Yes people say suck it up; try again – but for those who do the right thing with no reward in the end isn’t that fantastic. If this ‘Diminishing System’ is still going to be implemented make it so that before we enter the dungeon we’re made aware of how many tokens we’re going to receive for that run (after we pick our path)

You really need to take into consideration the effect some of your decisions may have on this game. Yes by all means boost the daily to 60, it will encourage us to take all paths of the dungeon, but you shouldn’t be penalizing us for our efforts in completing them especially in a certain time frame or completing them numerous times. As I already stated, this decision may effect the amount of players willing to use dungeons and pick crafting over it in the use of obtaining exotic armor.

With major changes like these, I also believe that the public should be made aware of these changes before putting them in action so that we can tell you what should be implemented and what shouldn’t be as now you’re finding that we agree with some changes but not all.

-Ciao!

Ummmmmmm. I’m telling! You said “daily”.

GRINDER! GRINDER! OMG GRINDER!

:)

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Ok, I’ve tried to be sane, sensible and respectful mostly. But the lack of response about what the hell we’re supposed to actually do has worn me down so…

Can someone official please tell us how we’re “supposed to be playing” the dungeons?

I think I get it, so I’ll take a stab:

1) Take a group of friends with voice chat so you can communicate.

1a) but it won’t actually help since there will be so much stuff going on that you can’t communicate what’s happening because you don’t understand it.

1b) but don’t worry, if you spend enough currency on repairs, you’ll eventually figure it out.

2) Yes, eventually you’ll figure it out, but be prepared to lose a lot of money on repairs learning the fights since the drop rates are so low that you will be at a negative until you straighten up and learn how you’re supposed to be playing.

3) Once you know the fights, be prepared to have an easily repeatable experience to do over and over again.

4) This is not a grind. It’s “experiencing the content.”

5) because the fights become easy once you know them, the token costs are high enough that even a skilled player must spend at least a week to get a dungeon set of armor assuming that’s basically all you do is grind that dungeon. It wouldn’t be fair to the content designers for you to spend less than a week of your life doing the same thing over and over again for the shiny at the end, now would it?

4 Yes, the last one was 5, but this is 4 again because that’s our philosophy) If your friends don’t happen to like that dungeon set… well, they’re stupid. So… I don’t know, give them real life money to join you or something. I’m just a developer. How am I supposed to guess what your friends want? Offer them cookies or wash their car. It’s not my problem. Or maybe you could promise to do stuff you don’t like over and again to help them if they help you. Sure, that’s it. That’s very fun and democratic. Everyone gets to spend at least twice as much time as they would to get what they want. That’s fun, right?

5. We like 5 so we did it again. If you don’t like 5, go play WoW) Never join a PUG. This content isn’t for everyone, it’s for truly skilled gamers, with unending patience and silver; people willing to work together without frustration or lives for dozens of hours at minimum – hundreds at worst since you can only get each dungeon’s items from that dungeon – to achieve the goal. That’s fun. You’ve been told. Don’t make us ban you for failure to have the required fun in the required way.

5. I said we liked 5. So much we’re going to do it over and over again, but it’s not a grind. It’s 5. The prettiest number of all) All of the above is subject to change without notice, and even with notice, the changes may not actually work as promised.

7 kitten 6. We hate 6. It’s like swinging a sword over and over and over again. We hate that, so we skipped it.) Don’t get disconnected or fail to finish a dungeon. That would suck since you’ll probably be negative in the money count if you do and get no tokens, but hey, it happens right?

8) Bots are bad; don’t be one. Honest players are fine, but we have to assume everyone is a bot, so get over it.

9 We don’t like 9 either, but it’s basically the complete opposite of six visually, so we kept it.) Dungeons are fine the way they are. We’re not changing the tuning at all. Unless we do. But we can’t talk about that because that would be a promise, even if it wasn’t, and promises are bad. Unless they are marketing materials that sell copies. M’kay?
1
0) This is not the game for you if you disagree. Just look around. At least 100 people have said so, so it must be true.

So, can someone official please let me know what we’re supposed to do/think/like?

I don’t care really, I just want to know if I should hang up my hat now, or wait for a few more patches before I even start to decide.

In the meant time (honestly), love the game. Just not sure it’s the one that will be here in a month…

Does anybody have a link to an official Dungeon Philosophy or something from ANet?

I mean, if I break down a lot of what’s being said and done, it looks a bit like this. And I’m not trying to intentionally provoke here. This may come off as snarky, but I swear that’s not my intention. I’m trying desperately to understand the philosophy to decide if I want to do the content based on it at all:

“Dungeons should take a minimum of 30 minutes to run.”
“All content in each dungeon must be seen by all party members.”
“A set number of fights must occur and be won by the party.”
“Difficulty is based on a one of two formulae that either multiplies party DPS by some factor to determine mob health and damage output, thereby extending fights to the acceptable length of time, or multiplies the number of mobs in the encounter and the number of events per second occurring on screen to cause as much confusion, and therefore difficulty, as is necessary to extend the encounters to the acceptable length of time.”
“You may only receive a rate of return on time invested of x tokens/silver per hour.”
“You must see x number of square feet of content per hour to avoid these restrictions.”

When I try to interpret the patch notes and comments, I’m getting a very formula-based result. That doesn’t quite square up with the other stuff I’ve seen about their philosophy, so I’m either misinterpreting the actions of the team, or I misinterpreted the intentions pre-launch.

Or maybe I’m missing something else?

For what it’s worth, I’m against exploits of any kind. But the diminishing returns thing seems a bit… I don’t know. Sulky? “If you don’t see all of our beautiful content, you get punished.” I have a hard time believing that’s what’s ACTUALLY happening behind closed doors, but it feels that way.

So please, someone, is there an official statement of intent anywhere?

Personally, I think there is actually only one quest in this game: the personal story.

I’m at 50% map completion, finished PS and 80 (+30ish) on my main. And in all that time, the ONLY time I had to go from one place to another was in the PS, or when following a caravan event.

I’d like to see questing as I thought it was going to be designed into this game. A simplified example:

Level 1. Escort the beer cart to the outpost by the river. Thanks, now if you’d like to, you can feed the guests some beer (heart event here), or go out and gather up deer meat for the feast (heart event here), or if you’d rather, you can take this package of documents over to Bullywhistle in Rata Sum (personal quest, no personal story) or help us get these fireworks and roasted meats over to Greff at the fishing camp (start Dynamic Event: escort the Dolyak). Or all four. Or none of the above.

And if you choose to feed people beer, they get drunk, then get in fights, which might lead to a brawl which leads you off to get herbs to cure hangovers and bruises…

Or if you choose to take the fireworks, there’s a fireworks display that draws the Grawl out of the caves, but if they come out of the caves, the caves will be empty for a while until reinforcements arrive or if you take the documents to Rata Sum, that allows them to finish a new golem prototype that if you bring it back to the outpost, it stays there as a guard for a while until it’s destroyed…

I’ll stop there, but I hope you see my point. There’s no cohesion in the questing as implemented. No progression. It’s just a constantly recycling set of “stuff to be near”, rather than stuff to be involved in.

I’m an explorer at heart, but I really miss quests that help you explore in this game. They’re all “localized”, except the escort events.

As for an “immersion” solution, here’s one that I think is pretty simple and comes in 2 parts:

1) spawn a personal Crier when you get relatively close to a quest who runs over TO YOU and offers you the quest. I haven’t thought through the details, but maybe if you get in the same 1/4 of the zone as the quest giver, or when you accidentally loot a quest related item? In any case: Hub avoided, heart avoided, quest gained.

2) spread out the items that satisfy quests. Maybe even to different zones. Maybe even make some of them in WILDLY in appropriate zones for your level so you have to do more than just kill your way through to getting them. Like you know… sneak or something.

Anyway, just a couple thoughts on immersion, the main point being: for the most part (there are of course exceptions here and there) each heart and “event” feels like it’s an instance, not part of a world.

My $.02

Undecided mostly. I actually had no problems with loot in dungeons personally since I never planned to “farm” a dungeon set anyway, but the change could be good for people who wanted it. I will say I hope to never see anything like “Arah shard group. Must know the jump” again. I went along once to see what “the jump” was all about.

Felt like cheating to me, so I didn’t bother again.

I’m just waiting for the dungeons to settle in a bit. Maybe a round of tuning here and there as some of the encounters are just… painful at the moment. Not really challenging, just a grind to get through.

So… we’ll see.

And as for PUGs… yeah, they mostly suck. But something should be done to allow these groups to complete the dungeons. Create difficulty modes or something. Because REQUIRING you to be on at the same time as friends/guildies, and then them wanting to do the same dungeon as you, and then them not being just as bad as a pug can be asking too much of the player base.

My guildies and I got spanked in CM the other night and haven’t been back. We’re not bad players. We were on voice chat. The encounters are just overtuned right now. It wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t so bloody expensive to try out new tactics, but each of us ended up losing something like 20s before we just gave up in frustration. And we still have no idea what we were doing “wrong”.

So… yeah. Undecided.

Folks, remember to us the +1 function if you like a post. I just did and it feels great!

This is great stuff, even if the results are necessarily limited to the subset of players who use the forums (and all the psychological confounding factors that implies ).

If you played in any of the beta weekends or stress tests, you may recall that Anet have a survey system in place in game.

I would LOVE to see them use it for a few of these things then publish the results, or at least share them with the OP as a thank you for being level headed, respectful and trying to actually be useful to the community.

Well played OP. Well played indeed.

Ideas/suggestions:

More puzzles. Jump an otherwise.
More events, dynamic and just interesting based on NPCs.
More reasons to move to lower level zones.

… never mind.

I just realized that the developers must know this. And they chose not to do it for some reason.

Given that, I think it’s time to wait for the true next generation to come out.

Love ya,

Good talk.

Love to. Please show me where the practice areas are so I can do this.

If you mean, “just pay the price in silver to figure it out”… um. No thanks. And this is exactly why few people know how these work.

Actually, few people know IF they work, and what they do if they do work.

Combos are an AMAZING idea. But the implementation was painfully obtuse.

"

You want to change the world, but there are also millions of others who do. Only few exceptional people will make any significant impact to the world, or else whatever they do will just be diluted by each other.

A game where you can make a difference in the world is EVE online."

I think WE want to, not just me. And "significant’ isn’t the point. Change is. If I could do something that caused an event to be named after me and I knew that someday, a few other people might find that challenge with my name on it… well, that would be better than the current system where I am literally just another number.

I doubt many have thought it through to this level, but I would guess that the chance to make a “permanent” difference, no matter how small it actually turned out to be, would be a huge incentive for many people.

And I’ve never played Eve, but I’ll check it out.

Aramanth.1546:

The thing about these classes is ArenaNet wanted to make them balanced by making them a little bit of everything, that’s why all classes have at least one ranged weapon option and skills that heal themselves and allies. The problem is by getting away from the holy trinity of healer/dps/tank (which I remind you has been successful and even desired in other games) the professions lose purpose. What’s the point of a guardian if defense is useless? Why bother playing a Necromancer if they don’t have the damage output of everyone else? Why bother playing a Mesmer if all mobs seem to group together? By making all the classes a jack-of-trades (good at everything, a master at nothing) they’ve become too balanced in everything. No one can effectively survive a hit from bosses, no one can heal damage well enough, no one can dish out massive damage. I find it mind boggling that anyone would get away from the holy trinity when all other games- the successful ones, mind you- were based around that. It gave us strategy, purpose. If I wanted to be full defense in exchange for little power I still had a purpose as the guy who made sure everyone else stayed alive. If I do that here, I end up being a third wheel- defense is useless and my damage is a joke.

What’s hilarious is even though people try to defend the lack of class purpose by saying now people won’t be looking for a specific kind of person in order to start a dungeon run, as though they were required, people still are looking for specific characters. I was in a dungeon run that had asked for a defense-based guardian or a support elementalist. They even asked me beforehand how I was specced to make sure I wasn’t some knock off of a warrior. And I still died, despite being nothing but toughness and vitality. As far as I can tell, the only class that hasn’t suffered is rangers- not only do they get their own personal tank but they just wail on the enemies without worry. At least a Necromancer has to attack before their minions fight, potentially drawing aggro.

Look, bottom line is classes tend to suck because the holy trinity isn’t being used. There is no set healer class, no true tank, no true dps. And it’s ironic that in a game that totes you can be whatever you want with each of the classes people end up using very specific builds.

I want to +1 you but I just can’t.

I’ve done probably 50 pug groups and not once has anyone asked about someone else’s build. That’s not statistically relevant, but it’s interesting to me since I have been a victim of the LFG tools in other games.

Still, finding a group is hard. In my opinion unnecessarily hard. And the reason seems be because a LFG tool forces the “trinity” concept; it doesn’t just allow it.

Solution: I have no idea. But what’s here isn’t revolutionary. It’s just a changed dynamic floundering around for solutions.

so, back to the original question: does every class suck?

Yes. At some things. But they are all decent at most things. And that’s part of why those who are unhappy are unhappy.

We don’t matter. We’re replaceable with pretty much anyone else.

We’re cogs in a machine, not engineers guiding it.

I’ve made this point a dozen times, and … well, I guess I’ll make it a few more times. Maybe some day it’ll catch on.

Art.7628:

The baseless “this game takes skill”, “we want an even playing field” and “cosmetics are enough reward” among other arguments against DPS meters and gauging all fall under one category to me. That category isn’t innovation or success… it’s casual/carebear/easy mode.

This game’s innovation has a lot of potential and I would hate to see it ruined by masking an inability to provide proper reward/reaching out to all types of players due to the casual market… once again.

Unfortunately right now, people are confusing innovation with appealing to the casual. This doesn’t work for longevity. It has been proven over and over again.

I’m sorry. I didn’t understand any of what you wrote. You seem to think there is something about games that isn’t casual. You also seem to think (without providing anything remotely like evidence) that things supporting your view have been “proven over and over again.”

You also mentioned DPS meters which I didn’t see anywhere in the discussion until you mentioned them.

Would you mind starting over so I can try to understand your viewpoint?

Thanks!

“Marketing strategies usually have a set target audience. When someone who isn’t part of the target audience buys the product, it is pretty pointless to complain that it is not what they wanted.”

I wanted a sports car. I was promised a sports car.

I paid for what I believed was a sports car.

A tricycle was delivered.

I seem to have missed something.

Didn’t read.

No.

All game enjoyment issues are developer issues. When we buy a steak/cheeseburger/pair of underwear (e.g. luxury item) no sane person blames themselves if the result isn’t enjoyable. No one buys these things HOPING they’ll be enjoyable. They always, always buy them BELIEVING they’ll be enjoyable based on marketing.

If the marketing doesn’t match the deliverable…

Good talk.

So your question is, “which class is obviously overpowered”

Define “super cool”.

Yeah. I’m that guy.

“Leashing” in this game makes trains a pathetic mimic of real trains in prior games.

Run away.

You don’t. Traits can be reset at your trainer in Lion’s Arch or wvwvw map for some silver.

I’m not being snarky here: if you want a “finished” game with everything laid out and perfect… well I can’t think of one.

I’m not happy with the game at present. But since I don’t have to keep paying each month… I’ll wait.

What’s in the future?

More of the same I’d guess.

Ranger. 80 + 30ish.

It’s OP and therefore boring.

I’m trying others, but they (so far) seem sluggish and less interesting.

It’s a tough balance. I’d hate to be developer with customers like me.

Hotdogs.8934:

Even if they added raids, nobody would do them because there is no gear with better stats as a reward. If they made it super hard, people would just complain.

Stats mean nothing when you look at it. Impact does.

In other games you want gear for the look/power it conveys. But only because that makes you feel powerful/different.

I believe the reality is that we want to make a difference in the game/real world somehow. And this game, and all others, fails in that regard.

My $.02.

Cik.6479:

Moonthrower.1406:

The core idea of this game is that your skill is what matters… not your gear.

Thats funny. Skill. Hmmm…I’ll start this video about there. . .about skill. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-8Iph0PdU&feature=player_detailpage#t=253s

Thanks for wasting 10 minutes of my life.

This guy is a kitten who doesn’t actually have a POINT.

He whines about lack of “skill” then says, outright that gear collection equals skill.

Not funny to put this here. At all.

I agree there are massive problems with pvp, but the equalization of levels isn’t one of them. Yes, it needs some rebalancing. But his whole point seems to be that what you collect in the pve world should make a difference in pvp.

No. Just no. Being invulnerable because of time spent grinding is STUPID. It has nothing to do with player skill. At all.

So… lots of juvenile felines at you.

The end.

I’ll summarize:

Nothing.

We want to feel like we change the world and we don’t.

Thus, it feels broken, and it is.

Good talk.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Lance Coolee.9480:

@Wintyre:

I challenge you to give me one clear, thought out, logical reason why making the same “vanity plates” available through different means would negatively affect you and the community.

I never said it would negatively affect me. It will have no affect on me whatsoever. It will negatively affect those who enjoy striving for badges (skins) that commemorate specific in-game activities like running dungeons.

So your actual argument is actually that achievements should be visible in some way. I’d get on board with that.

Oddly, if the “visible” thing is a token, a sprite, a memento hanging over my character, I could care less about some and really want others.

But if it’s what my character wears all the time, every time I look at them… I want options for getting there. Or maybe I don’t. I’ll have to think about it.

I mean, a specific set of armor for completing 1,000 dungeons, that can only be gotten that way almost sounds worthwhile. But that’s not the same as completing the same dungeon 1,000 times.

I’m not sure why.

So. Badges for specific accomplishments: good. Character defining skins for them: bad.

Or maybe not. Time to do some thinking.

[edit: fixed a posession thing in the grammar]

If they actually wiped you off the aggro lists for mobs, you could at least use them for exploration.

As it is, they’re mostly just a waste of space.

Now, if it let you FIGHT as the mob you were mimicking for a while that might be cool. At least as a gimmick.

Maybe implement them in dueling? e.g. you can duel as Monster_X against someon else’s Animal_Y? That could be fun.

+1

Combo fields seem like a cool idea, but it’s really hard to know a) what they’re doing and b) is it actually helping.

A tutorial, or even just some kind of a practice area with target dummies and maybe some kind of consumable for testing would be nice. e.g. vendor sells potion of <combo field type>. You throw it on the ground and it mimics the type of field a player skill would do for 10 minutes, so you can shoot stuff through it, stand in it, whatever. Obviously, this could only work near the target dummies. Wouldn’t want us making our own combo’s out in the wild and ripping poor unsuspecting mobs faces off.

I’d like to have SOMETHING to do with them. I think I’m up to 50 unopened so far and I refuse to spend my gold or real money to buy keys before the economy settles down considerably.

Greyfeld.7104:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Greyfeld.7104:

But this “solution” is very narrow-minded, because it assumes that dungeon rewards should be different from world rewards, and should be set apart specifically only for those who run the dungeons. The reality, however, is that gear progression should have multiple approaches, and the “path” you choose should be based on what you enjoy doing, not which armor set you want to end up with.

100% agreed. Why shouldn’t I be able to gain enough “game currency” to buy a dungeon set of armor by helping out in other areas of the game map? Granted, there should be some “challenging prerequisite” to being allowed to purchase the dungeon set, like proving my worth by completing all paths of the dungeon; but following me earning the right to purchase it, I shouldn’t have to continue to do any one of a very few list of options to actually obtain it.

I’m not even sure that single dungeon run should be required. In the proposal I’m making, these sets wouldn’t be “dungeon sets,” they’d simply be “exotic armor sets,” or whatever the hell you want to call them. Gear that is extremely costly to get ahold of, but can be purchased through time and effort expended in any part of the game you actually enjoy partaking in.

And with an equal amount of time spent doing any one of a number of different things to gain the currency to purchase them, other rewards should be granted as well. Skins, pets, minis, achievements, rare crafting materials, etc etc. It grants the best of both worlds: a token/currency system that eliminates the randomness previously associated with raiding, and random drops that still grant the “gambler’s success” adrenaline surge that many other people enjoy.

+1

And from a content economics standpoint, this could actually work out even better than forcing people into underused content. If as a designer you have underutilized content, tweak the “global reward” system to give people more incentive to go there and do stuff.

So if you want the dungeon armor, that’s actually the EASIEST way to get it: run the dungeon over and again. But it’s not the only way to get it.

Ha! That would put the “I grinded this dungeon 1,000 times for this armor” crowd on their rears.

“Oh yeah? Well to get mine I had to <insert even more challenging challenge>!”

:)

Lance Coolee.9480:

SirMoogie.9263:

Derpinator.2894:

But again, maybe I’m missing something on the other end. Maybe if everybody does only what they like to do, and can get the rewards they want it breaks the game somehow?

I’m feeling really dense here to be honest. I know I’m missing something; I just don’t know what…

I agree with you, but I just trying to help you understand why. The dungeon armor is for people… well… people like this:

Malediktus.9250:

Giving more tokens or reducing the price is unfair to those people who already played dozens of dungeons and maybe even bought gear for those tokens.

Personally, I think that if you’ve performed some great feat you can advertise it through achievement or just saying so. However, I think I may be in the minority when it comes to this. I think most people want something tangible to show it. Not just a title or achievement, but things that show status or grant special power (like better stats or abilities).

We should just make special achievements for those guys. Or even just titles.

IE:

Sir Moogie
<That guy who shown enough bearing and perseverance to kill Giganticus Lupicus 50 times!>

That’s right, all hail “that guy”.

+1.

I was thinking about this the other day actually. As far as I know, I’m the only one that can see my achievements. It would be nice to have some way to show off a little bit.

I’m not sure how it could reasonably be implemented without causing huge problems (80 people all showing off their stuff at once could be a huge graphical nightmare), but something like a trophy case that you could “display” outside of combat?

Or maybe a Boy Scout style sash that you character could wear with all your merit badges on it?

Something like this might mitigate the fact that right now ONLY gear shows your achievements, grind or otherwise.

Mickey.4207:

Who knew people could argue about something so subjective for 6 pages. As if it is even possible to define what is fun for others.

Rewards are fun. At least for me.

Visually, it’s actually great, although it needs some kind of a break now and again to keep it from just being oppressive. Creepy. Kind of gross and depressing. That would be awesome if most of the zone were that way. But the entire place? Not one single spot of light that we, the heroes, have managed to salvage and heal?

It’s too much.

And others have already stated most of the problems with the mechanics so I won’t rehash except to say: this zone needs work. A lot of it.

SirMoogie.9263:

Derpinator.2894:

Please help me understand if I’m missing something here..

You are missing a few things… I’m not saying I agree with them, but you asked. Some people do like competition and a sense of achievement over others. The “prestige” gear like legendaries and dungeon armor was put in to address that. They were supposed to show that someone put in great effort to get them, and in particular with dungeons, that they did something challenging. However, you’re right on the grind factor here. If you complete all three paths of a dungeon you should walk away with enough token for a armor set, and maybe a weapon or two. You’ve shown you can do the challenge in my opinion.

The other thing you’re missing is MMOs thrive by having an active population. If people leave the game there is less of a chance they’ll come back. When more people leave developers start asking the question of whether it is worth continuing. Sometimes this is a good thing as it can spur the developer into creating new content, or even a new game with more bells and whistles that couldn’t be achieved under the old engine. To help retain customers MMOs, especially pay for play ones, add grinding content to keep players in game longer. Eve if there were no cash shop or monthly fee there is something to be said about retaining an active population to do things with.

Thanks again (I mentioned this post in my last one).

And I get that you want an active population. Which is exactly why I would think having the maximal number of options for achieving goals.

Look at it this way. If the server population is, let’s say, 100 people.

And there are 10 cool armor sets. But for some reason the majority of the population just happens to like the look of #4.

Now the ONLY way to get set #4 is… I don’t know, something a lot of people would find really unpleasant… maybe reading War And Peace. In Russian. Even if you don’t speak it.

Because it’s a game, who’s going to do that? Not many people.

So now you have a lot of people who have to settle for their seconds favorite armor, or just not play at all because they refuse to learn Russian and read 1200 pages to get the reward.

It seems logical to me that locking content (even if it’s just cosmetic) behind a required, repetitive action can only damage the health of a server population. I’m not advocating making these items easy to get. I’m advocating making it possible to get them without forcing yourself into content you don’t personally enjoy.

But again, maybe I’m missing something on the other end. Maybe if everybody does only what they like to do, and can get the rewards they want it breaks the game somehow?

I’m feeling really dense here to be honest. I know I’m missing something; I just don’t know what…

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

If you are forced to repeat a specific piece of the content to get a specific piece of gear, that’s a grind. Whether that piece of gear is “cosmetic” as in GW2 or “opens up new content” as in other MMO’s is irrelevant.

If there’s only one way to get it, that you have to repeat over and over, it’s a grind.

Convenient definitions do not an argument make. I can define “grind” as “having to kill enemies” or “having to craft” or “having to explore” and advocate that I should be able to just log my character in for X hours a week and have the legendary item mailed to me. Or then I could complain that logging in is a grind …

Hmmm. I’m trying to decide if you’re trying to be insulting by calling my definition of a grind “convenient”. I choose not to be insulted and rather point out that mine is a perfectly acceptable definition and each of your examples actually illustrates that point. If you “have” to do something, and it’s the only way to achieve your objective, that’s a grind.

Even one option makes it less grindy. And having dozens of options removes the grind altogether, unless you are one of those who thinks everything in the game is a chore. In which case, I would ask why you bother to log in.

So to blend you examples, and your apparent goal (the legendary you mentioned) and my convenient definition: If each of those things was the only way to get your legendary, then yes it would be a grind. However if you could do any or all of them (other than the silliness of “just logging in”), it’s not a grind.

Thanks for the earlier clarifications (can’t get back to the post now that I’m in the editing window, but you know who you are).

It never really occurred to me that forcing yourself to do something you didn’t want to over and over again could create a sense of prestige, but I suppose I get it. I’m still not sure why developers would force you to do it though.

If you just want bragging rights… no, sorry. I still don’t get the point of being forced into a specific piece of content.

Guy 1: “See this armor. I ran CM 139 times to get it. It took me two months of farming, but I got there.”
Guy 2: “See this armor. I managed to get it without ever setting foot in CM. It took me two months of farming, but I got there.”

I mean, if you want to brag that you gutted out the same dungeon 1,000 times to get your armor, nobody’s stopping you. We see the uber armor. We know you spent mountains of your time to get it. Why is it necessary that that be the ONLY way to get it?

How does me spending time doing other things that I enjoy stop you from enjoying your armor?

Still not getting it…

80 Ranger. 6/10 (but I expect it to go up as more polishing is done on the game)