Guild Wars 2

Strange. I’ve never seen this from the bots. I have seen them standing in one spot flailing at nothing forever, or standing at a chest/node spawn waiting.

This is sad but as the previous poster said, seeing it in the game is a pretty good way to identify it (and it should be reported when you do) but there simply isn’t enough manpower to physically find bots in game. They have to do it through code, statistics and then observation before they can really take dramatic action.

Although I think if I were in charge of an MMO I would have a report botting option and a team of about 100 volunteer player-trustees (known as Game Guides as opposed to Game Masters in earlier MMO’s) who could go investigate, gather evidence and escalate appropriately.

In fact, I think I’ll volunteer to help. It’s something else to do in the world, and this world is stunning.

zydal.2790:

Derpinator.2894:

zydal.2790:

Agemnon.4608:

If you completed it then you already know you could beat it so repeating is just redundant.

So you want to run a dungeon once, get the gear, and be done? Wow.

“You got from level 1-2, you already know you could do it so repeating is just redundant.”

“You got your crafting to level 2, you already know you could do it so repeating is just redundant.”

“You killed someone in PVP, you already know you could do it so repeating is just redundant.”

Hopefully you realize how ridiculous that entire argument sounds.

I remember playing pencil and paper D and D and taking multiple weekends to finish a dungeon just to get whatever amazing thing was in the chest at the end.

Dungeons in video games are fast-food copies of the reason people love dungeons. So let’s not be too hasty to blame/hate for someone saying, “been there done that after one run” because it’s largely true. Doing it over and over again refines technique, it doesn’t necessarily make the dungeon any different or better.

I recognize that it’s a compromise that designers have had to make to adapt to technology and consumer demand for this fast-food alternative, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with wanting to run a dungeon once and get a trunk full of loot out of it.

Is there anything wrong with WANTING it? Of course not.

Expecting it? Asinine.

With the “Been there, done that” mentality I could get every single piece of gear available from dungeon rewards in a single night. That’s ridiculous. Expecting that, and expecting ANet to put it in? Downright stupid.

Video games that incorporate an online element are all about retention. GW2 cares about retention less than sub-based games, but they still want/need people to stick around and continue playing the game. If a game becomes a ghost-town, it becomes less inviting to new players, so it doesn’t sell as well. As it stands now, in a few months I’ll still be running dungeons to get the cosmetic gear I most desire. I personally see nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong with that, but expecting anet to put in fun things to do between getting the awesomesauce isn’t stupid at all.

So, let’s just say you’re correct. You could get every piece of gear in a single night. That’s one extreme.

Here’s the other: there is no possible way to get even ONE piece of gear in a single night. And to get all of the piece of gear you have to do the same content something like 50 times.

That’s where we’re at. Extreme number two. An entire night’s play with no in between rewards for the effort.

How do you bridge the gap?

I would bet that in an hour I could list 500 things that COULD be done to make running each dungeon, each time, more rewarding.

I’ll spend 30 seconds, assume that each line below starts with “finish a dungeon or boss encounter within the dungeon”.

Get a buff that turns you into a pirate ghost until you choose to click it off.
Get a random delivery of crafting materials from the ether.
Get a minipet.
Get a balloon animal sword filled with poison gas.
Get one of a random selection of food items that only come from that dungeon.
Get a “be a mob” token that allows you to take over a random mob somewhere in the world and control it.

I’ll stop there. Sure, none of this stuff is in game already, but it could have been. Along with hundreds of other “allong the way” incentives. Titles, town clothes, show weapons, more gold per run (never going to happen), a pet that follows you that is the same model as the dungeon boss and calls you, “My Lord” for your 10th victory.

The options are endless. Why they don’t exist is a mystery.

zydal.2790:

Agemnon.4608:

If you completed it then you already know you could beat it so repeating is just redundant.

So you want to run a dungeon once, get the gear, and be done? Wow.

“You got from level 1-2, you already know you could do it so repeating is just redundant.”

“You got your crafting to level 2, you already know you could do it so repeating is just redundant.”

“You killed someone in PVP, you already know you could do it so repeating is just redundant.”

Hopefully you realize how ridiculous that entire argument sounds.

I remember playing pencil and paper D and D and taking multiple weekends to finish a dungeon just to get whatever amazing thing was in the chest at the end.

Dungeons in video games are fast-food copies of the reason people love dungeons. So let’s not be too hasty to blame/hate for someone saying, “been there done that after one run” because it’s largely true. Doing it over and over again refines technique, it doesn’t necessarily make the dungeon any different or better.

I recognize that it’s a compromise that designers have had to make to adapt to technology and consumer demand for this fast-food alternative, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with wanting to run a dungeon once and get a trunk full of loot out of it.

Skelks. All of them. kitten ’em.

And as many have said, everything on Orr.

Leiloni.7951:

Why do you think it should be any other way? Games are designed to be played, so play it and you’ll get your reward – there is no need to buy stuff with gold when it’s all the same level of stats. You’re just being rewarded with a cool visual after playing the game type you prefer.

What if I hate dungeon X but really like the armor from there?

It’s a game after all. Me being able to earn that armor doing something I like doesn’t harm anyone else’s game. At least I can’t see how it would.

If a developer wants people in their content, make people WANT to be there by developing great content. Don’t force people to “endure” what they don’t want to get what they do want.

It’s mind boggling that this is even a consideration on the part of a game developer so I have to wonder if there isn’t something more to it than just, “well, play our way or hit the highway.”

I’ve seen quite a bit of “here’s our philosophy and we stand by it” from these developers but not ONCE have I seen anything that had a “if you don’t like it, get bent” attitude. I find it hard to believe that’s their attitude, but I could be wrong of course.

Illushia.3721:

Okay then.

Not wanting to have to move ten feet to do something is lazy.

No matter whether that’s ingame, in real life, or whatever.

So, no. You’re wrong. It is lazy.

You are damaged.

The point isn’t “walking ten feet”. It’s spending 20 minutes to get to a guild group or event that I actually want to participate in, versus spending 20 minutes farming kitten mobs that I don’t care about to raise the “money” to avoid spending 20 minutes walking to said event.

Please. Stop putting pixels here. You are wasting even more of our precious minutes in this universe deciphering your nonsensical drivel.

I had a huge post written, but I’ll narrow it down:

Give a bunch of people a few hours to learn their classes. Or 100 hours of “normal” content like the 100+ hours of regular zone mobs you created (snore),

Then throw random groups together in this dungeon.

Observe. Laugh if you must. Cry if you have any sense of decency.

Change appropriately because… kitten.

I know. “Specifics!”.

But seriously. Try this. This instance is so tuned toward your highly experienced alpha team, and not towards normally leveling players in the real world, that YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED to have allowed this into the release of this game without a) much more build up – e.g. lots of really rewarding encounters that kind of prepare you for it and b) a much shorter event cycle so that I didn’t have to spend over an HOUR and more than 1 PRECIOUS GOLD, to find out that none of us had any kitten clue how to deal with this encounter and would resort to fighting and ragequitting in the end.

It would be different if it was shorter, cheaper or we had more practice leading up. But this is a bit like introducing a full-contact Chuck Norris into your living room while trying to watch Sesame Street for the 100th time. There’s just no way to be ready for the pain.

So try this. Seriously.

Seriously.

Crake.5827:

FadeXF.5460:

OmegaNine.9148:

The company that makes the game sells gold (Gems, that sell for gold). You are not going to catch them giving people a break on money management. The poorer you are, the more likely you are to buy gems for gold or items. This is why you can’t make money from dugeon runs anymore in my opinion.

Honestly, if they keep the game content up (Add dungeons, PVP maps, world events….you know, stuff we wanna do) there is no reason they shouldn’t want to be paid for the development costs. I would personally rather see dungeons sold for 5 bucks instead of gold sold though.

I have a feeling its going to create a “pay to win” system in the end. But I am sure smarter minds than mine have thought this over before the game came out.

Yup. I am seeing this trending now.

I would pay a monthly fee… it’s not like I haven’t almost the majority of my gaming life. (I was one of the first in Ultima Online… like day 1 I was there… with friends and familly going: “WTF: you are paying a MONTHLY FEE??!!!” )

I would pay a monthly fee to avoid paying for travel costs. I just don’t want to see this nickle and dime garbage on in game currency. Especially when the tool tips themselves say something about a miniscule cost. Yeah ok. It’s not miniscule when you are awarding us like 1-1.5 silver per event… the quickest ones being like 8 mins… the longer ones more like 10-15 mins or more. Especially if you factor in other costs in the game like repair costs, crafting costs, buying manuals for your own character advancement, buying gems from other players or even buying things on the market or for your alts. There’s PLENTY of gold sinks already. There’s no need to pick my bank apart on travel fees.

Anyways. I’ll leave it at that for tonight.

Last I checked paying monthly fees didn’t stop wow from charging for quick travel. And their quick travel wasn’t even that quick.

Also, aside from repairs and the hilariously cheap trait retraining name me one of these “plenty” of other gold sinks. As I said earlier manuals are holes to be filled since they are one time payments. Crafting, you pay for materials which go to other players. And there is nothing from the gem store that really requires at all to be bought, so thats an optional sink. The only real sinks in the game are the TP and travel.

Let’s back up a second here.

The purpose of a gold sink is to stabilize the economy.

The economy consists of people who rely on trading of in game materials because they can’t get what they need/want on their own.

They can’t get what they need/want on their own because of designer decisions.

So… designers deciding that there has to be an “economy” causes one to exist. It’s not reality and therefore the only “need” for gold sinks exists because designers say there needs to be one, and that’s only because they decided there needed to be game-wide scarcity.

We seem to have forgotten that it’s a game, in a game world, designed by and controlled by people.

So you’re willing to pay a monthly fee to travel… why again?

Haishao.6851:

You make about 1 gold every 3 level around lv 40 and waypoint only start costing 1silver at lv 50+ So either you spend all your money on things you don’t need, and seeing how cheap everything is on TP you probably buy more than you’ll ever need in your lifetime.

Or you afk farm events in lv 1~15 zone and expect that it will make you rich.

The later is more probable.

Um, no. Maybe, MAYBE, you do. But definitely not everyone, and we have no way of knowing if the majority do

And even if they do, we have no way of know if that’s because they’re “putting up” with something they actually hate or whether they’re truly ok with it. Or even like it.

I highly doubt both of these, but I will admit that we can’t know.,

Crake.5827:

tl;dr: Gold sinks are necessary in a game economy because currency is generated infinitely. Gold sinks actually stop this from getting more grindy down the track for newer players.

/snore

Gold sinks are necessary. I agree.

Travel isn’t one of the necessary one because it causes more harm than good by a large margin.

tl’dr: Ignoreme.

Cik.6479:

There is a significant lack of rewards for many activities in GW2, particularly WvW and dungeons.

I liken it to most socialist society sways….socialist societies evenly distribute small amounts of entitlements to everyone, while not enabling those that output more effort for a more rewarding outcome, with, well….a better reward.

/vomit

There’s nothing socialist about GW2 and nothing socialist about your take on socialism which you clearly haven’t studied; let me fill you in. It was never meant to be a real thing. It was a experiment in “what could be if we weren’t all self-serving kittens.”

But we are. So no point in digging deeper into what was never meant to be.

Now to your “point”, which is… truly ignorant of both reality and fantasy worlds…

“more output” in these cases doesn’t actually mean more productivity. That’s something that can ONLY be measured by personal gains (duh). It means merely that basic participation in a system guarantees a survivable return.

This is how EVERY game works. At least every one that has any kind of fan base.

The reality is that basic participation (mouth breathing) has to reward at some level. True excellence must also be rewarded at a much higher level.

In every game, and every society, this happens. Guess what, even in communist countries it still happens. The distinction is that in communist countries, “excellence” has a more fluid definition.

Please. Learn something. You appear to be one of the ignorant masses that are destroying our future through ignorance. I’d rather have a socialist future operating under reality than an imagined future as you seem to see it operating under ignorant beliefs…

Just this minute left a pug after an hour of trying to finish my personal story event: kill Zhaitan.

Why?

“You aren’t making an suggestions!”

When I was the only person in the group who admitted at the start to never having been there before, and my suggest in reality was, “Let’s regroup at the waypoint and talk about what to do.”

It’s not possible to be any more reasonable than that, yet the kittentards who continue to breed and join these games see this as a deficit.

So my answer is: if you keep getting ragequitters in your groups, are they worth staying with?

I doubt it.

Illushia.3721:

You did not comprehend what I said at all.

Obviously you read it, because I didn’t say the changes were lazy until the end. But you didn’t comprehend it.

I disagree. I comprehended perfectly.You not only implied that wanting simplified in GAME experiences were “lazy”, you stated it directly.

I rebut by saying, it’s a game. The truth is that anyone’s disagreement with what a work ethic in a game is from yours is a disagreement; it is not evidence of laziness.

So, my attack wasn’t actually aimed at you, but at the subset of the populace who make claims like “You’re lazy!”

And even if it was personal, you have no ground to stand upon as this is a game. By definition, from person to person, there can be nothing lazy because there is nothing to gain.

Or to put it more simply:

No. You’re wrong.

So very much agreed. I literally just camped out of a pug because after 1g spent on repairs, in a zone I had never been in, some moron said, “you’re not making suggestions” as if I had any information to work on. Mind you, this is “Kill zhaitan”. The final node in the personal story for which I can’t possibly have any suggestions excep, “Stop. Let’s talk and decide what to do as a group.”

So yeah. The suck of PUGs needs to be taken into account so that all content is accessible to all people.

Or admit that this isn’t a goal.

“You’re lazy!”

And you, dear poster are willing to eat a kitten sandwich with a smile on your face because you believe it’s the best you can get…

This game is amazing. But it can be improved in a thousand ways and seeing servile dregdges support it with comments like this horrifies me.

Carry on.

RashanDale.3609:

Some parts of the current system are just stupid.
For example that it costs you to travel into capitals and from one capital to another.
Since you can travel via Heart of the mists to Lions Arch for free, you dont really walk or pay anyway; you just spend more time looking at loading screens.

That being said, its a good thing that travelling costs something. It emphasizes you to do something in the areas you visit or at least makes you think about where to go instead of hopping around like a frog.
And it isnt really expensive either. From Lions Arch, nothing costs more than 2s50c

It is expensive in my opinion, but apparently you value your real life time less than I. So again, let me ask you:

Why should I get paid for spending 5 seconds killing a mob, yet have to pay for waiting for a loading screen for 20 seconds?

In real life, I’m still just mashing buttons and waiting for things to happen. Why is one version a “cost” and the other a “profit”?

FadeXF.5460:

The apologists are also trying to tell me to go out there and explore the world… well I AM. I’m trying to play the game the way YOU are telling me to. And I am getting no gold here going for all the skill points… and walking all over the map because I have 24 silver now to my name is RIDICULOUSLY NOT FUN.

I just want to hop to another zone closest to some skill events that were bugged as I was leveling. But I can’t because it is stupidly expensive. So I have to hoof through all the content I’ve already seen… back and forth… and EXPLOIT going to PVP for a “free” time consuming port to WvWvW then out again.

How utterly STUPID. Not fun. And making a liar out of ArenaNet’s “we value your time.” Bull kitten you do. If you actually did, you wouldn’t force me to grind just to use your stupid WP system.

I am starting to hate this game.

For what it’s worth, be at peace with the fact that they will change this. As much as I’m disappointed with the difference between what was promised and what was released, unlike any other game company I can think of (coughblizzardcough) I think these guys at anet really want to make a great game, rather than just build another profit-cog in some machine.

It may take some time, but I think/hope/believe they’ll get there.

I would REALLY like to see a bit more communication from them however. Not trying to be arrogant (but obviously will sound arrogant), this argument in my prior post stands all scrutiny to which I can put it. But as I’m not a game developer, I’m curious if I’m missing something and I hope to get some official feedback on it.

So let me just restate it: if I get paid for killing a mob which takes 5 seconds, why do I have to pay for a zone transfer via waypoint that takes 20 seconds? I can “farm” mobs all day to pay for travel expenses, but it’s simply not fun and since control of the game is inherent in being a “developer”, why would you make me do something that’s unfun and unprofitable in A GAME?

Deadly Toy.2630:

Like others have said, you should play a video game mainly because you ENJOY playing it, not because you want to get better gear just so you can seem “better” than everyone else. Same as leveling, you don’t try to level up just so you can reach max level as soon as possible just so you can be “better” than everyone else; you level up because you enjoy doing stuff in the game. Seriously, if you are spending so much time at a video game just to achieve higher stats on your character or virtual prestige, you need to get a life.

I enjoy getting in-game copper for my activities. Why should I have to pay out in game copper for waiting for loading screens when I hit a waypoint?

Sure, this is a slippery slope (like why should I have to pay for repairs, or upgrades etc.) but the fact remains some costs are truly optional (getting a new skin for your weapon) while others are not (taking a waypoint to join your guildies before they all log off or find someone else).

Do I need to go on?

To all the supporters:

It takes (even without omnomberry bars) 5 seconds to kill a mob that drops 9c worth of “stuff”. It takes (on my midlevel machine) 20 seconds to load a new zone when I hit a waypoint.

Please explain to me exactly why I should get “paid” for one, and have to pay for the other…

No no no.

Jesus people.

“Fun” is in the eye of the beholder. Some like the grind for gear, some like the grind for looks. Some like jumping puzzles. Some like to pwn noobie zones like a demi-god. Some like… well you get the idea.

anet has an opportunity to change everything by CHANGING NOTHING here, and they won’t/can’t do it because they want to appear to be changing things more than they want to do what’s necessary: allow people to do what they enjoy.

This game has magnificent potential. The problem is that they promised a lot of things that they can’t deliver on because they’re trying to be different, rather than simply allowing the player base to do what they enjoy.

I’m no rocket psychologist, but I understand that people enjoy doing different things for their amusement, but there seems to me to be a pair of hugely important factors in games that are overlooked these days:

1) games are about fun. Fun = choices between rewarding and challenging activities, not choices between the least painful possibilities to participate in those possibilities.

2) kitten economies. If they’re broken, it’s just a game. If somebody has a bazillion gold, who cares? Ban them for exploits if you catch them, warn you players that if they’re stupid enough to buy unofficial currency that they get banned (and follow up) but otherwise, leave kitten alone. Simply make it POSSIBLE for someone to enjoy the game without other’s involvement, and let those who want to dabble in the in-game markets/economies do so. If I want to NEVER touch the auction house, I should be able to happily “finish” the game without doing so. Yes, this will cause item drop rates to be too high. Who gives a kitten? Let the auctioneers play their auction tycoon game. It’s what makes them happy, so why stand in the way?

Ok, so I haven’t thought #2 through as thoroughly as I should, and maybe not #1 either, but… just give us choices between fun options.

That’s all. Really guys. That’s all it takes. Choices between fun options.

/rant off

First the tl’dr: waypoint travel is too expensive. It should pay. Not just be free.

The math:

To travel from wayfarer foothills (outside Hoelbrak) to Arah waypoint. 3s 88c.

To travel from wayfarer to Durmand Priory (where an Asura gate to Fort Trinity waits for “senior” members of the pact), then on to Arah waypoint from Fort Trinity: 4s 34c.

This. Is. Broken. No matter what you think of the “cost” of travel. Making two stops on the way should be cheaper than a direct flight. It isn’t.

And now, once again, WAYPOINT TRAVEL SHOULD BE FREE AT WORST AND PAY US AT BEST.

Free if we use them to just conveniently hop.

Paid if we do something to help NPCs along the way like deliver goods or messages.

Paid a lot if we skip them and run from point A to a chosen point B instead of using the waypoint.

I despise this mechanic of the game as it exists, and I think that if you’ll spend a moment thinking about what it means, you will too.

What it means: if the content between A and B is so unalluring to you that you wish to skip it, you have to pay for that privilege with your precious real life time spent either running, or farming for gold to pay the “skip” fee.

This. Is. Broken.

Sousuke.7268:

Derpinator.2894:

Waypoints shouldn’t cost anything.

Not having waypoint costs would kill the game world. Sorry but as much as i think the current price is too much, I also think it is necessary (the idea that is).

Skyrim and Oblivion both had “free” travel, and I found the games to be….boring that way. Its more fun to roam.

I still want to be “forced” to go trough the world from time to time – but I don’t want to be punished every time I want to get something done fast.

I disagree that it would destroy the game world. In fact, in the rest of my post, I said that not only is free a good beginning, but PAID waypoint usage is ideal. Find other ways to leech gold out of the economy; just not this way. It’s terrible design (at least at the current price points) from a psychological standpoint.

Games are about rewards. Doing things that feel good and fun. Having to make a real-life economic decision inside a game is not fun.

Here’s the logic:

My friends (or just I, all alone) want to run Dungeon X or Event X. It’s in zone Y.

That’s at least 5s round trip to go help them, or 20 minutes of running/zoning etc. Sigh. Which is more important. The half hour I spend either way (to make up the silver later by killing things or the 20 minutes each way I spend traveling back and forth by foot) or spending the time with my friends."

This means that no matter what I choose, I’m paying a price in real life terms for an activity specifically designed to SKIP doing something I don’t have time or desire to at that moment: walk.

I agree. It’s way more fun to roam most of the time. And I do. I’m an explorer at heart and I love it. But when I want to use a waypoint, there is always, ALWAYS a reason for me to skip the content in between: I don’t have time to roam.

And whether that reason is good enough for you, the developers or anyone else is irrelevant to the cost associated with paying with my real life hours to skip something I don’t want to do because it’s unpleasurable.

Hawken.7932:

@TurtleofPower: lack of Anet response makes me happy (as it perhaps means they won’t give in to the vocal minority QQing about every little inconvenience.
The travel costs are fine. If they made them free, it would make the game into a lobby game. It’s working (well) as designed… the cost is meant to encourage you to take part in the world by roaming, rather than zipping around instantly.

It’s not a “little inconvenience”, it’s my real life minutes spent doing something I don’t want to do in a game.

So you’re almost correct. It doesn’t “encourage you to take part in the world by roaming”, it punishes you for not wanting to do that at that moment, or having some reason not to at that moment like my guildies want to run Dungeon X which is halfway across this expanding world; you know, how it gets much, much larger as you level and open new areas.

Punishing me for not wanting or having the time to run… That’s a bad philosophy.

Let me skip it if I want to and reward me well if I don’t skip it.

But let’s be honest, if the “reward” for just roaming around was worth it, no one would use the waypoints.

So put another way: the fact that people use waypoints means that the “stuff” between them isn’t worth running through all the time.

That’s the designer’s problem. Not the community’s. And we shouldn’t have to pay to skip something we don’t find interesting enough to slow us down at that moment.

Waypoints shouldn’t cost anything.

In fact, they should find a creative way to implement potential rewards for using them like being a delivery person to an NPC at the other end.

This is the only “unavoidable” gold sink in this game if you think about it, and it’s the one that’s tied to the most important issues in gaming: personal time and sociability.

It is a poor system for an MMO and needs to be completely rethought at best. At worst it should be a trivial cost cost that through massive numbers of “transaction” helps to balance the economy. It should not be a cost leader of the entire system because rapid travel for sociability is a cornerstone of the genre unless there is some reward for the time spent. And forcing me through 5 events “on my way” to the one I actually want to participate in is a very poor substitute.

WoW got this horribly wrong also and had to patch it together with the dungeon finder. I hope ANet rethinks this.

Yup.

Static world. Static mob spawns. Predictable AI. “The economy!”. etc.

I’m hoping for better as they polish it though because MAN is the world pretty. I mean seriously. It’s stunning and I really, really hope they can tweak this thing to be what they promised.

Tiresias.6473:

… is completely insufficient to allow a new player to participate in the economy in any meaningful manner.

…

Overall, it’s a good system. It could use some tweaks, but its heart is in the right place.

They can participate as a new player should even in ridiculously inflated economies. By looting their own stuff and buying from vendors. Just like we had to do while the TP was down for two weeks. It didn’t stop me from reaching 80, experiencing any of the content, participating in any way. The outrageous costs of travel as the size of the world increases (as I open new areas by leveling) is definitely impacting my ability and desire to participate in the larger world.

So I disagree that it’s a good system. There are other gold sinks that are optional. This one is not and it’s particularly bad because it wastes the only currency that really matters: player time.

“Farm” to pay for travel (which costs time), or spend time to travel. You’re spending time no matter what and no amount of skill in the world will change the costs or the time required to move from any given point A to any other given point B.

Is anybody else here horrified by how often words like, “plan”, “decision”, “cost”, “conserve” and “sacrifice” keep coming up about A GAME?

Maybe I’m crazy but… I have a job in my real life where I have to do all of these things to pay the bills. I don’t want to do it in my video games too.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot and travel by waypoint should PAY the player, not the other way around. I don’t give akittenabout “the economy” and “gold sinks” because I don’t buy gold. For those that do… groovy. Buy your way to the most awesome skins, or xp potions to super zoom your way to level 80.

I play this game to explore, hang with friends, see the amazing artwork etc.

So I run most of the time. Butkitten when I don’t want to, I don’t want to FOR A REASON and it shouldn’t ever be akittenif you do,kittenif you don’t scenario in a game.

I’ve said it before but here it is: having to make a choice between spending my real life minutes running through content I’m not in the mood to slow roll at the moment and “farming” to make gold to skip said content by using the waypoints is a punishment to me simply for being in the game world.

It has to be changed.

I can avoid the “death penalty” (at least in theory) by NOT DIEING. But this one… it’s unavoidable. It’s a penalty no matter which way I go and I’m coming to like it less and less the more I think on it.

I’d love to, but the amount of inane babbling that NPCs do in this game seems overwhelming at times. “I told you not to sharpen the combabulator coils!” “I didn’t, it was Murfo. He was drunk!” “Oh. Well then why did you..” etc. etc.

I’d love it if this turned into something like having to solve the jump puzzle of the sharpened blades in the giant thingymabob of destruction.

But I mean… how much time do I have to spend? Will it ever turn into anything?

I’m not saying telegraph everything but… actually, yes I am: telegraph everything. It’s a game, and while I appreciate the designer’s work to no end, standing around waiting to see if something is going to happen isn’t my idea of fun.

It just occurred to me that I can’t think of a single reason for having currencies in game that can only be spent at certain vendors and then only for certain items.

Why not just gold?

Real money purchase problems?

I mean… so what, honestly. But if there are things that are just soooooo valuable as to need to be locked away from real currency (which just means “can only be bought with player time or skill”), have two. I’d be almost ok with that.

But how many are there in this game? Gold, karma, honor, individual dungeon token, wvw rewards, xp>skill points…

I’m honestly curious if there’s any good reason for all of this.

Based on the horror stories like this, I’ve never bothered with any dungeon in explorable mode, even if I could find a group, which has been a serious challenge to say the least.

I can’t imagine based on the overwhelmingly negative feedback that these costs and lackluster mechanics are getting that there aren’t changes in the works.

As a player (even one who doesn’t DO dungeons at the moment) I would love some feedback from designers BEFORE the changes.

Not a couple of sentence that amount to, “There ’ya go kids!” after the fact, particularly when the after isn’t significantly better than the before.

I know they’re busy trying to make the game as close to perfect as possible, but it would be nice to be a fly on the wall for some of their internal conversations about these things.

As it is, unless something is a clear bug or exploit, the communication is awfully sparse (although MILES better than many other companies post launch).

In summary: 50 runs of the same instance as the ONLY option to get the ONLY “upgrade” in the game: armor skins.

Um… no. If the tokens were for all armor sets, running all the dungeons and choices a few times each to get the pieces we want might feel worth it, but even then what are we talking about realistically? A couple hundred hours of doing the same thing over and again for a skin?

It still seems out of whack to me, but maybe I just don’t get it. To my mind, 2 hours each doing 50 (actually different!) different things makes more sense.

I mean, lets say there were theoretically, only two currencies in the game. Gold and Karma. And, theoretically, you got those as rewards for everything you did. Jump puzzles to minipet fights.

And let’s say theoretically that you could use either or both to purchase anything from any vendor in the game.

What would it hurt?

I’m honestly puzzled by the multiple currencies and closed-shop mentality of the vendors.

Why was it put in?

I feel a new topic coming…

Wanko.8103:

Karthus.9841:

Wanko.8103:

>less farming

Less how? I hit 80 and got best armor possible after playing like 5 days or something. Do you want an “I WIN” button or what?

70 time an instance of 2 hours mean 140 hours, mean 6 days 24/24 of gaming that for a casual gamer alias anyone work it means 17 weeks just for a skin.

Casual gamer isn’t supposed to get this skin. This kind of challenge made specifically for those, who like grind.

And why make it a “time spent = reward” thing?

Why not one seriously challenging jumping puzzle for people who have that kind of skill?

Or recruiting x number of players for your guild = cool lewts?

Or exploring 100% of the game world = skins?

Or crafting x number of pieces = skins?

Or making x number of item sales on TP = skins?

I think the problem a lot of people have with these things is that the ways to get them are essentially ALL time based, but the number of avenues for achieving them is limited to activities that not everyone enjoys.

What about other kinds of skill? Real challenges based on the timed-skill events in the world for example (gather 1 lightning bug and feed it to the cow in under 15 seconds = skin)?

“Grind” just means “doing the same thing over and over again”.

For some people (maybe even a lot or most) that’s a form of entertainment.

But for a LOT of us, it isn’t enjoyable at all.

But a few other things that people can do that are enjoyable and SHOULD be rewarded:

testing myself repeatedly against a jump puzzle might be (if they fix the freaking cameras in this game),

or doing a real old fashioned treasure hunt through multiple zones,

or winning pvp battles with other classes skill sets or strange weapons that are single use and spawn at random,

or going x number of hours without dying,

or getting “assist credit” by helping other players in chat, or… my lord there are THOUSANDS of things people enjoy doing with their time.

Is it hard to implement each and every one of these, not to mention all of them? Yes. But I think anet cares deeply about making the time we spend in the world feel worthwhile, so it wouldn’t surprise me to see any or all of these and hundreds more in the world eventually.

Wanko.8103:

>less farming

Less how? I hit 80 and got best armor possible after playing like 5 days or something. Do you want an “I WIN” button or what?

I want a game where clicking “log in” feels like a win button, and a lot of the things that people are complaining about amount to penalties just for spending your time in the game world.

I’m sure most will be addressed in time, and some never will because the developers will disagree that they’re a punishment. To each his own.

But I’ll say it again:

They should communicate more than they are.
Games should always be about rewards; never about punishment. This is a fine line because “having to choose A or B” can be just that: a challenging, difficult choice.

But things like “Here are waypoints. You can use them, but whether you do or don’t, you’re going to spend your time doing SOMETHING that you clearly don’t want to do. Either farming to pay for the trip, or running through territory you’d just as soon skip for whatever reason.”

That’s a punishment and needs to be addressed.

My suggestion (off the top of my head): Pick your destination (it’s where you want to get to eventually) and click the waypoint.

You get two options:

a) deliver a message for the Asura. The waypoint travel is free, so long as you stop and talk to the NPC at the other end and deliver the message, and you actually get a few copper pieces for the trip. (reward, reward)

Or deliver a package. Item drops into your inventory for delivery to the NPC and it prevents you from using that waypoint until delivered or destroyed. If you deliver it intact, not only do you not have to pay for the waypoint (reward) but you keep anythying you gather on the way (reward) and get a nice little chunk of change or something from the NPC at the other end (reward).

This way I have a choice of rewarding options. If I have time, I’ll take the run and make some cash. If I don’t (like I’m just trying to get to my guildies at the dungeon entrance) I take option B and don’t feel penalized for taking the time to endure the loading screens (and yes, that is a price that players pay in real life minutes just for being in the game world and it needs to be taken into account.)

It’s not a perfect system, but imo it’s a LOT more fun than the current one.

And it’s just one way that always focusing on rewards can improve games like this.

^ Almost agree OP. Good play should be rewarded. Bad play is punishment enough all on its own.

If you suck, and therefore zerg rush your way to victory, secretly deep down… you know it.

If you have (and use) the time to perfect your skills and find like minded others to play with, you should get more/better than those who don’t.

I HATE content being locked behind artificial walls like in other games, but I’ll tell you what I hate even more: PUNISHING A GAME PLAYER FOR ANYTHING that doesn’t break the game.

Games need to be about rewards. Punishment is never acceptable for the general game experience. If you’re harrasing others, or exploiting or whatever, go eat a bag of broken glass for all I care.

But games should be mouth-breather: small reward, all content. Uber-raiding-god: large reward, all content.

Easier said than done, I know. But that’s why I’m a mouth-breathing gamer, not a designer.

Definitely +1. I already have to pay to get to the waypoint, then pay for repairs. Why make me pay psychologically too?

It would be especially sweet if it could be called, “sweet release from the zerg” when there are more than 2 enemy players on you. The other day as I was trying to get to help some realmies in wvwvw I ran into an area I didn’t know very well. Turns out, it was the front door of another realm held area.

As soon as I showed my face about 30 of them rushed out and did… terrible… things to me. I’d love to have a choice to skip that humiliation (yes, it was my own fault) and still be able to thumb my nose at them by denying them any honor/glory whatever for what amounted to using a nuclear warhead on an infant.

Your body disappears and your spirit shouts, “COWARDS! FACE ME THREE OR FOUR AT A TIME!”

Because I can usually handle my own 1v1, 1v2, even 1v3 if I have my gear/skills set up for it. But 1v30? Come on. That’s just not right at all.

Or, as was mentioned before, you’re exploring alone and run into a box canyon for a chunk of ore. You turn around and watch in horror as 5 or 6 of those Risen that can blind/pull/stun all appear out of nowhere.

You know what’s coming and just want to get it over with…

+1 and my guess is after the recent “you can now discover from collections/bank tab” that it will come soon. I’ve stopped crafting completely for a while for this and other reasons (omg drop rates are low for fine materials). I just don’t have any more room for inscriptions, noodles and unused dowels, but I’m afraid to sell them/destroy them since I don’t know what I’ll need yet.

In OP’s defense, this list is just a (very small) sampling of the suggestions/complaints found in hundreds of threads in these very forums, not to mention dozens and dozens of other places on the web.

I’ll give anet credit for an amazing game. Maybe even the best ever MMO-to-be, but this game is far from finished and the details about these requests are here for the taking if they choose to.

From my perspective, and maybe what’s beginning to bother so many others, is the silence from ANet about most of these issues.

Not even a “Hmmm. We’ll look into that one.” for most of these.

Does that mean they’re off the table completely? Cool. Just let us know.

They’re all in the works? Cool. Let us know.

Some combination thereof? Cool. Let us know.

I feel like there’s already been more feedback from anet since launch than all of that provided for Diablo3 by that dev team (just to put this in perspective), so kudos guys. Seriously. Way to be!

But more is better in this case. Overwhelm us with communication, even if it’s only to say, “No. That’s not how we do things here.”

+1 for something this, for me, maybe just a 3rd and 4th “pair” and the ability to rotate through them instead of just swapping between A and B?

I very rarely like to us greatsword on my ranger, but a) carrying one all the time and b) swapping to it when I want to use it is just unnecessarily tedious for such a situational even. Right now, I’m forcing myself to use 1hs/horn even though I DESPISE the 1hs animation-lock just because it’s the highest damage output combo for the weapons I have. But there are situations when I’d rather us Axe/horn instead even in spite of the damage loss. But alas, since I’m a ranger I basically have to have a bow at all times so my option is stop, equip, go, finish whatever caused me to want to switch, then swap again manually.

Painful. And it wouldn’t be an issue if the animations didn’t suck so badly on 1hs.

And I’d like to suggest a “build swap” for traits and skills.

Just the ones you’ve unlocked already, I’m not talking about changing how your points are allocated in traits. For that, go pay your fee and change your stuff.

But I’d really like to have an easier way to add “muddy terrain” and switch from traps to signets when I’m in exploration mode on my ranger for example. I have the skills available, but it’s hit H, click traits, move to traits, select drop down, select drop down, select drop down, now switch to skills and/or change them one at a time in the hotkey bar. Then if I run into a combat situation (which WILL happen when exploring) it’s either a) have the “wrong” set of skills queued up and deal with it or b) run out of combat, reset, run back in again.

Painful.

It’s not “hard” to do, but it’s irritating to HAVE to do it when I should be able to just have my “exploration build”, one click and go explore. And my “combat build” if I run into something that makes me want to kill.

I feel like I have to fight the UI and I really thought that was a no-no for ANet’s philosophy.

- Ranged attack physics have been fixed to better reflect actual physics: You should now see an advantage in range from being located higher up in the world than an opponent on the ground. Further, since an arrow travels in a parabolic arc, small objects like the edges of caste walls in WvWvW and blades of grass or small bumps in the terrain and stairs will no longer obscure targets that are below you. In addition, if any part of the rag-doll of an opponent is visible on screen, there is a chance for the attack to hit. This chance will diminish depending on how much of the rag-doll is visible as well as taking the other standard conditions into account, e.g. distance to target, relative elevation, type of attack, moving target or stationary etc.

- Certain animations like the 1hs “1” key for ranger have been modified. You should now be able to move and strafe during the sequence, as well as interrupt it by dodging. In addition the escape and closer animations such as the “3” key 1hs animation for ranger have been fixed so that the moves can no longer throw you off of walls and bridges and a pair of new options have been added: “maximum range” allows you to choose how far away you “leap” during these animation. It can be preset allowing for instant access, or you can toggle a “channel mode” that increases the length of the leap the longer you hold the key prior to release. “directionality” let’s you choose whether to leap forward or backward, or you can combine this skill with your dodge keys to choose to move in any dodge-enable direction. We anticipate this giving more ability to anticipate where you will land and skillfully handle a variety of situations.

-The Asura have added new gates to each dungeon entrance to and from lion’s arch. This is to facilitate travel and reduce expenses for players who may wish to run to save money on waypoint expenses, but do not appreciate having to hack their way through the mists and/or run for 45 minutes to see if there is a dungeon group available. Oh, and the lfg tool has been revamped to work. And an lfg channel has been created.

- A new collectible tab has been added: For The Forge. Items can be placed here for storage for later use in the great forge.

- Introducing Boon of The Explorer – daily achievement: Each event and dungeon participated in that is in a different location each day will provide an increase in total Karma, xp and gold generated for all subsequent events. This will encourage players to move around the world and continue exploring, rather than merely bunching up in the highest reward areas and repeating the same events. This stacks up to X times and provides a maximum increase of X00% reward. This boon is persistent upon death but resets each day(week/month). — while this is a fun exercise, I’m not a designer so I have no idea what the limits and resets should be. I just know I would rather feel truly rewarded for moving around and doing different things.

As it stands now, traveling feels like a punishment. I think this is completely broken in a game that is all about exploration.

- New feature added: map notation. Now you can add notes to your in game map so you can remember where that node was, or the vendor that sold rare kittens, or which event you really enjoyed and want to repeat, or mechanics of the boss fight that you had 20 levels ago or… etc.

The trading post has been updated. It allows you to purchase the items you’ve searched for. ;p

Drop rates for cloth, leather and all fine crafting items have been increased dramatically, allowing those who are working on crafts which share resource pools to be leveled more synchronously and at closer to level-appropriate times.

A new type of trap has been created. It is the reverse of the enemy-damage model and allows “friendly traps” to be laid so that allies can trigger them in times of need to gain regeneration, quickness, protection etc.

Rangers can now use rifles.

Hit boxes have been modified so that strafing out of line of site of an opponents attack animation will cause the attack to miss, just as would dodging. Animations and AI have been updated so that mobs are now smarter about this to avoid exploits. (I’m looking at you raptor/drake/bear).

Guided missile technology has been mostly removed from the game. Ranged attacks by NPCs that are “in the air” will now MISS if the target moves out of the flight path. This should allow players to survive if more than one ranged attacker decides its their time to die because, yeah, you’re basically toast right now if that’s the case. And we’re really, really sorry we EVER put this one in the game considering the insane spawn times, health pools and damage output of some mobs.

I love carrots on sticks. I just don’t really like being beaten into a drooling fetal position crying in terror with the stick to get the carrot. And right now, it’s a big stick held by a giant stinky Fist of Grind.

And it’s a baby carrot.

The good news is, I still have less than 50% map completion so I have a lot more to do in the world before I get truly “upset” about the grindiness of this self-proclaimed grind-free game.

And it’s funny you mention that gear really does make a difference in wvw. I did MUCH better when I was in my 40’s because most other people were also – not that I have a huge amount of time in wvw. Maybe 8 or 10 hours total. I leveled and geared kind of casually compared to what appears to be “average” in wvw now and I’m finding it less than fulfilling since I don’t have a full gear set built for it yet and I feel rather squishy.

Oh, and how can I have more than 50 kills but only about 20 tokens? I’m very confused by the process of earning the tokens.

Can anybody point me in the right direction?

I can’t speak for tailor but I can certainly speak for Leatherworker and Huntsman. I salvaged every single piece of medium armor that I collected from level 3 (when I could afford my first set of tools) to level 80. And I saved every claw, totem and scale. Every one. And by the way, I’m an explorer. I’ll go WAY out of my way to grab a node of ore, tree etc. And of course, kill things along the way.

I ran out of materials leveling huntsman to around 275, wood at first, then fine materials. And leatherworking is now stalled (maybe permanently) at 75 because I refuse to go farm in lower level zones until the rates are more appropriate and I’m not spending my hard earned copper on items that should have dropped while I was leveling up.

The drop rates are just too low and need to be adjusted if you’re using two crafts that share mats which is to say, if you’re doing two crafts.

I get that this is a game based on killing things, but OP makes a good point. Most of the DEs revolve around one of three repetitive themes:

Kill the invader(s).
Protect the moving object by killing the invader(s).
Gather something and bring it to an NPC which is made challenging because you have to kill the invader(s).

I would really like to see different goals and methods for success implemented.

A few of the more clever things that I’ve seen and enjoyed are the bug catching quest and the cow tutoring quest. I can’t remember the zone unfortunately, but those were fun. Frustating for various reasons like having to talk to the NPC to get the first one – since that was the first one I ever encountered where you were required to start the quest with an NPC in the entire game, and in the case of the cow suit having a “new” set of controls to operate the cow.

Overall, I love and appreciate the concept of dynamic events, but they are not challenging and as far as I can tell, don’t actually do anything to the world, not even in the short term.

Hmmm. I think Asum.4960 just hit me with a ton of bricks.

I love this game and the world. It’s gorgeous, but something has been nagging at me since the very first time I logged in and has continued to bug me at a subconscious level up until just now.

Now that I’m 80, other than the dungeons, it feels like I can go ANYWHERE in this game alone if I’m willing to just run past the mobs. And the only reason I didn’t feel this way leveling up was because I was still leveling and didn’t notice the extreme freedom of mobility.

I remember in other games (EQ for instance) there were, even at max level, entire zones where you had to have a group to move. Each mob, each pull was a true challenge and the rewards were excellent for pulling together to get to your destination.

THAT is what’s missing in this game. Truly challenging open world content.

I’m 80 and I’m exhausted.

Personal story bugs and the fact that it just keeps going and going and going has got me down on it a little, but I’ll be done with it soon and it’ll be behind me.

And I would agree with everyone here who says don’t rush to level. It happens so quickly just by exploring the world that it really surprised me sometimes.

I’d log in and just go dink around for a few hours and a friend would log in and say, “Hey congratulations on lvl X”, which was like 4 or 5 more than what I expected to have. It really does go quickly, especially from 50 to 80.

As for where it’s headed… good question. Graphically this may be the most beautiful game world ever created and it is VAST so… it’s headed out there, thataway, yonder.

I’m not even at 50% map completion yet and like I said, I’m exhausted from running all over the place.

I would like to see mob spawns and aggro ranges in the higher level zones adjusted so I could go do some more exploring but for me, that’s about it. Go see what’s over there. Ooooh neat. What’s over there? Ooooh neat.

etc.

Well I found a “fix” at least for lvl 80 ranger with the elite form of the crow skill.

When you get to the first canyon, before the opening of the cave, burn everything you have to kill everything. This keeps the “team” alive.

Then wait until everything is off cooldown, particularly crow form.

Then focus everything you have, and I mean EVERYTHING on killing the champion. If you can get him dead, then even if you die you can keep coming back and finally clear the cave mouth. Then just walk back to trahearne and he’ll go into the cave and finish things. You still have to follow/kill, but if you can get that champ down, at least the story progresses.

I’d guess I spent 1g or more on repairs trying to find a way through this and I can’t imagine how badly this must suck if you don’t have a massive dps/hp boost like crow form.

This almost made me quit the game. I get “challenge” but this is just kitten stupid.

This whole issue must be a terrible balancing act for developers, but I believe it really comes down to giving players options, and rewarding “better” players.

If you want this game as it stands, you play in normal mode. Nothing changes.

If you want a challenge you play in “mid-core” mode, where if you don’t die, you get rewarded. Not just achievement points, but actual rewards for thoughtful play.

If you want to be a true hardkitten you play in hardcore mode, where you only get one death per toon, but huge rewards for making it.

The current system of mild punishments for death is just lame. And I hope with all my heart it dies soon.

Rewards work better in games than punishments. Choices work better than predefined scenarios.

I don’t think this is controversial or hard to understand.

edit: Oh, and this requires that you actually tune your game before release for all levels and options.

This one has SERIOUS issues at higher levels because of poor beta testing policy. If no on gets a chance to play the higher level content, no one can comment on it. Thus: Orr.

Guys,

This game is so badly flawed above level 30 that I have a suggestion for future releases.

Break the beta up into groups and allow some players to test the end game.

max level 20/40/60/80 groups in beta.

I love this game… until it starts to feel untested.

I’m completely stumped in the personal story at lvl 80 because of a bug.

Crafting is broken starting at about level 10 because you can’t possibly gather enough materials to keep up.

Leveling is useless and unfulfilling because you don’t actually gain any power, you simply open the ability to survive in higher level areas.

So many quests and events are broken at high levels it’s impossible to list them all.

Orr SUCKS BALLS and is not fun and I don’t even know what the end of it looks like since I can’t stomach the thought of trying any more.

So again: test the high level content too in future releases.

Please.

If I’m dead because the npcs are useless, how the kitten am I supposed to do this?

OMG. I’m so close to walking away from this game and company forever…

The NPCs are just standing around outside the cave. My instructions are to “Escort Trahearne to the Royal Tombs.”

But he just stands there. Talking doesn’t work. Moving doesn’t work. Going to the tombs doesn’t work.

I’m about to give up hope on this whole kitten game.

I almost understand dieing in my personal story. But why don’t NPCs rez me if they win after I die?

They sometimes rez each other.

Although not with any kind of logic I can find.

Further update:

Arda apparently managed to survive while I flailed around aimlessly, yet only held on long enough for me to arrive just not in the nick of time.

I can’t wait for this punishment to end. 80 levels and 50 installments of this psychological brutality. At this point I’m only finishing it to say I managed to endure it.

Not. Fun.