Guild Wars 2

Sorry to burst your bubble,but even in PvE, necro sustain is horrid. The difference is that PvE is so easy(or one-shots) that sustain doesn’t matter, so any sustain at all (guaranteed in your 6 slot) is plenty.

That said, we know Path of Corruption will be useless in PvE. Enemies that use boons use short duration-high frequency boons, so stripping them is currently pointless (unless it’s via spinal shivers for the extra damage)

Renewing Blast is a case where the necro isn’t the frontline. Simply by standing behind the melee allies, you can pump out ~700 healing per second to all of them (adjusted for rate of fire, but not the unknown healing power ratio). You don’t even have to stand far away, so you will still be getting big damage in from life blasts for close range.

Muchacho.2390:

Am i the only one who finds the new traits not that bad?
Though some of the new gm traits may need a number adjustment or some swapping but it is difficult to say without testing them.

I find them to probably be quite good. The new Death Magic trait may need a buff, but honestly, I think it will be a lot stronger than we’re giving credit for. After all, you can extend death shroud’s lifespan dramatically with spectral armor and Locust Swarm. Even in PvP, it can be a pretty sizable amount of time spent in death shroud, so you can regain a pretty good amount of health. The extra toughness we’ll be getting will help contribute to that as well. Depending on how the new Blood Magic trait works, you may have necros in WvW that just do not leave death shroud for zerg fights. Coupled with Transfusion and you have very durable zerg support that keeps pumping out damage.

Really, the trait that’s most confusing to me is the SR 13. That one depends entirely on the healing power scaling. The devs stated it would be about 800 health per shot, plus healing power scaling. If you can line up behind a couple allies, that’s some very strong, sustained healing that you are putting out.

I am really glad that with necros, they addressed the two biggest flaws with the class: low sustain and terrible group support. Whether they did a good job with it remains to be seen, but they made the right moves.

Talyn.3295:

We can do almost anything but to be great at it we give up way to much. If Anet ever gets this, maybe we will get the right kinda buffs in the right places. But I think they are happy because “Guardians are in a good place.” That seems to be there answer for us everytime we ask for something.

Actually, what you describe is very much being in a good place. You can do anything you like, but specializing too far has diminishing returns. You can still be that hyper-specialist, but that opens up new weaknesses, as specializing should. Sounds like a great place balance-wise to me.

Warriors shouldn’t be compared to at all because they give up very little to be fantastic at multiple things simultaneously. They aren’t in a good spot, they’re way beyond it.

@Bash: I’m pretty sure there are multiple viable Guardian builds per game mode. The issue then is “is a Guardian filling this role better than someone else could.” Those builds are still viable, just not optimal.

ronpierce.2760:

I wouldn’t seriously look too much into it. Don’t get hyped on anything they say until you see numbers. I’m betting its like 80 HP/S in Death shroud or something awful.

They stated the healing is equal to the Regeneration boon. In this case, we actually have the full numbers.

I guess people didn’t think about the fact these traits were in development before the Ranger CDI even started, so nothing covered in there will be in this patch unless the devs were already doing it beforehand.

They stack. Not sure what you mean by “how”. If you hit, Vampiric procs. If you crit, Vampiric Precision also procs.

And if you couldn’t find that on Google, you need to work on your Googlekitten for it is very weak.

Sarrs.4831:

Alternatively, characters which already exist will have all of the traits they have access to unlocked. Except for the new ones of course but it’s doubtful that they’ll require you to do personal story missions just for the sake of avoiding this problem.

From the blog post:

Unlocking Traits

All major traits will be locked on characters created after the feature pack. All existing characters created before this feature pack will be have all previously existing major traits unlocked.

Bolded for emphasis.

Guardian one is pretty boring too. Big boost, but really boring.

I don’t think 4 second reflect bubbles on a 15 second cooldown will be bad, especially since most engies still pack Healing Turret as their heal skill and SD builds use Rifle Turret. Plus, this trait enhances the only elite than engies ever use anyhow.

Suitable for all builds? Not really, but I do think it will be better than you are giving credit for.

Anchoku.8142:

Dhuumfire – condi requiring precision placed into the power line
Unholy Sanctuary – heal requiring healing placed in the toughness line

I have to reserve judgement until I try out the reworked DM tree but my first questions are whether the regen is corruptable or strippable, and whether the regen ends when the DS tranform ends. Players who pop in and out of DS can already configure for a small heal on exit but I doubt many do. What kind of build is 0/0/30/20/20? Wasting DS on “turtle” strategy does not have much appeal but it is too early too do more than speculate.

Still, I cannot help drawing parallels with Dhuumfire.

From what they wrote, it isn’t a boon, but rather a state-check with healing equivalent to the Regeneration boon.

So, the only way to stop the necro from regaining health would be to get them out of death shroud.

I can see this trait being decent, but we still need to not be totally immune to a boon when using our class mechanic.

Bash.7291:

All the other ones look rather interesting, Though I think the Necro one might be a bit OP since they already get a free second health pool along with minions…

Not free. They have to build it up first. Plus, death shroud is only a delay tactic for survivability as right now, they cannot, under any circumstances, gain health in death shroud.

mPascoal.4258:

Great take out Hidden Killer and make my equipments useless Anet. Because ppl haven’t spent time on getting Ascended or anything…

Nothing is getting removed traitwise, these new traits are getting added to make it 13 major traits per line instead of the current 12.

blakdoxa.7520:

This mesmer trait will work nicely with CHILL.

It will. Good thing mesmers have no reliable access to chill (Chaos storm is it, and also highly unreliable).

That said, if a mesmer and necro decide to tag-team you, may Grenth have mercy on your soul.

My reaction when seeing the trait was “big boost, but talk about boring.”

Yeah, it would make more sense in Blood Magic, but since they also said the traitline is getting a rework, we’ll see how it goes.

That said, it is good Grandmaster design: they open up new builds.

Carighan.6758:

@coglin

I think this is largely a cognitive issue.
Players see direct damage attacks taking 50% off their health in 3 hits. They react, they heal, they shield, whatever.

Players see a condition damage attacker apply conditions. Their health pool is – at that moment – ok. So they don’t do anything until their health drops to 50%. However unlike direct damage, the moment you need to react is once again when the damage is applied, not after it has given the enemy the momentum they want.

So basically, we as players don’t take conditions serious enough.

Got it in one. This is, in fact, the actual problem.

I started the game playing a condition build primarily (this was at launch), and as such, I do take conditions seriously at the moment I need to, because I recognize when the defenses against them should be used. As such, I don’t have any more problems with condition builds than power builds, no matter what build I am using or on which class.

Lich stomp hasn’tever worked, to my knowledge. Not supposed to, either.

Brashen.2671:

As things stand it will be Spite, Deathshroud, spam DS skills, Spite again. Then, rinse and repeat with the odd epidemic thrown into the mix whilst the necromancer strolls around with 100% health.

Anyway, we shall have to wait and see

Wow! You’ll have to show me this build that can use Signet of Spite within five seconds of using it last! That’s really impressive, since even traited, it has a 48 second cooldown!

Rising Dusk.2408:

This sounds horrendously weak if all it does is give you the regeneration boon (essentially) while in DS. I’d consider it good if it enabled ALL heals to work in DS, but we just don’t know yet.

Keep in mind that it’s a regeneration boon when you aren’t actually taking damage, so the power of it is going to be stronger than at first glance. Plus, we still have the ability to build life force while in death shroud, so it will probably add a fair amount of durability. The real advantage is that the only way our opponents cans stop this healing is to burn us out of death shroud (since it’s not a boon), which means they waste their burst ability on that instead of when we’re actually vulnerable. It’s unlikely that they will do that, unless they are bad.

Hopefully, though, this also means we can benefit from Regen while in death shroud soon, in which case the double-strength is nice.

You’re confusing yourself. Stop it, take a step back, and breathe.

Direct damage is just as spammable as conditions are. Condition stacks do not amplify each other, they just occur at the same time. Each condition attack deals the same amount of damage each time the skill hits, exactly the same as direct damage attacks. The only difference is the time it takes for that damage to happen.

Lucentfir.7430:

I will say this, I don’t play a bunker play style I play a Damage hybrid spec, that is all i will say, and how I’m finding it good.

Necros don’t have issues with damage. We aren’t at the top of the various classes, but we get the job done. They do have issues in PvE (what necros are great at isn’t useful in PvE) and on the defensive front, though. They are probably the worst class for sustain, which is sad, considering they are supposed to be the attrition profession.

I agree with you there. So, what are some things everyone can agree on? I’m pretty sure we all would like to see defense/sustain improvements, especially in the form of siphons becoming worth using. I believe an increase in our ways to deal with CC is also up there (not necessarily stability, though if not that, then a way to punish the use of CC).

Rezzet.3614:

immob on the other hand is just game breaking being able to stack good luck escaping classes that slap 20s-30s+ immob chains every 10-15-20s

Got news for you, those classes could get hose chains whether or not Immobilize stacked duration.

Bombsaway.7198:

The necro is supposed to be a sitting duck if alone straggling in WvW. But have you seen their condi spam in larger fights??? That is balance.

In larger fights, conditions are pretty much useless due to group cleansing being so prevalent in zergs. Still a potent profession in those fights, but for other reasons.

Bombsaway.7198:

Actually, dodging physical damage is of greater benefit in a small fight because time to kill matters more.

This is more because the direct damage deals more total damage than relative value of the avoided attack. A wasted cooldown is a wasted cooldown, regardless of who used it, and both condition and power builds are heavily reliant on skills other than their auto attacks.

But I agree that I often see people ignoring condition users in a fight, and they pay dearly for it. The reason is that they don’t see the huge numbers popping up right away, so they think they aren’t taking as much damage (to a point, they’re right, but they are actually getting hit pretty hard).

Chorazin.4107:

Does chill change thief initiative regeneration?

Nope.

Lethal Stranger.5093:

Immob should be way higher on the condition removal priority list, that’d fix most of the issues.

Condition removal priority is always the most recently applied.

You have a strong point with the likelihood of minimal and maximal situations. Hundred Blades is a good example, there. Its optimal situation is when your opponent is standing still so you can land the full channel. While it requires no skill in PvE to do that (most enemies just stand in place), in PvP scenarios, it is harder to pull off. Still, this optimal situation comes up much more often than people like to admit, with skills such as Throw Bolas, a mace or hammer stun, or even using Fear Me when you positioned yourself on the opposite side of your target from a wall. Because the optimal situation is easier to create, it needs to play a higher role in balancing the skill.

The issue is that so many skills and traits are balanced around solely their optimal circumstances with little regard to how common or simple those circumstances are to set up. For traits, I could mention all of a necro’s life siphoning traits. In a build with Vampiric Precision, Bloodthirst, and Vampiric Rituals, 50% crit chance, and Banshee’s Wail packing 4 wells, a single skill rotation (all 4 wells, plus Locust Swarm) can siphon up to 19,437 health on average. This is a ton of health, but outside of PvE, it will never work as it requires 5 enemies simply standing there in melee range, not blocking, dodging, blinding, or going invulnerable for 13 seconds. In realistic situations, the necro gets about 70 health per second from a dedicated siphon build, which is downright pitiful. Going for this also requires the necro to be in a very dangerous spot, as getting that kind of siphoning means he has 5 enemies breathing down his neck. The 1.5k health/second from that siphon burst cannot compare to the DPS of five melee enemies. This is an example of balancing purely around the optimal situation.

Jocksy.3415:

coglin.1867:

Every procession had alternate skills and traits that very specifically limit or void these all together. Main problem is that the OP just spews claims out there as if it means something, andmnever even attempted to offer an actual fact.

Can you please tell me what my ranger has to “specifically limit or void” chill and immobilise? One that is not tied to my dead pet on a 60 seconds CD and that is just a general and very conditionnal condi removal?

Not all profession has abilities that targets chill, cripple and immob… thought they should hall have…
(don’t know enough the other professions – war, staff ele and thief are the only one that I know have abilities that target those condis)

Engineers also have a trait similar to Dogged March, but it doesn’t grant Regneration.

I recognize that the title may attract a number of people calling for buffs or nerfs, but that is not what I am going to discuss. What I perceive as a problem is the fact that there are two metrics that skills and traits are balanced around: optimal use and normal use. The problem is that so many traits and skills in this game are balanced solely around one, and not the other.

For example: of the new healing skills, Litany of Wrath and Defiant Stance were both balanced around average use. Under normal circumstances, these act as decent heals (perhaps a bit below average). However, under optimal conditions, they can fill the user’s health bar multiple times over.

Compare that to Signet of Vampirism. The Signet’s active is balanced around a minimum of five players (including the necro) all hitting the same target with no interruptions for 5 seconds, which is the optimal circumstance. Consequently, for anything less than that, it’s flat-out subpar to any other option (even antitoxin spray). Such a circumstance never arises in PvP or WvW where the signet even makes a difference; anybody goes down when being focused by 5 players for 5 seconds without avoiding attacks. In PvE, either the signet is worthless (solo roaming can never make full use of it) or it’s functioning under optimal circumstances (stack & smack bosses).

Now, I do come at this from primarily a necro standpoint, but even within the class, the philosophies are applied differently to different skills and traits. For example, Locust Swarm has the potential to completely fill a necro’s life force pool from 0 all on its own with no traits (2% per hit, up to kittens per pulse, 10 pulses). That’s a pretty potent effect, but the skill is balanced around average use (where it will fill 15-30%, depending on enemies present).

At the same time, however, we have traits such as Weakening Shroud, which was reworked in the Dec 10, 2013 patch. The Weakness duration on that trait was set based on +100% weakness duration and flashing Death Shroud with the Near to Death trait (as stated by John Chapman). It’s a potential circumstance, but this balance decision was made without regard to what flashing death shroud actually means, as it denies a necro their primary defense. In general, if you’re beating someone with flashing death shroud at every opportunity, you don’t need death shroud or any of the related traits to beat them. This balance decision was made by considering the optimal situation solely for the trait and not the implications of such a situation. This is another problem that crops up.

I have many more examples, and I am certain that the community has some of their own.

TLDR: If you are going to balance around average use, balance everything around average use. If you are going to balance around optimal use, balance everything around optimal use.

Prysin.8542:

Thief (thief got one, but once they use it, they are too easy to kill).

Two, actually. Withdraw and Roll For Initiative both remove cripple, chill, and immobilize as well as proved evade frames. One is even on a short cooldown (shortest of all healing skills).

That said, Lightning Reflexes is one of those skills that just feels like it should break immobilize as well. Some of the other stunbreakers feel the same way. I would suggest that teleport/shadowstep stunbreakers not remove immobilize, though, since that movement ignores the condition.

Minion traits should remain primarily in Death Magic for thematic reasons, as well as the reason that it’s just so much easier than trying to find Blood Magic traits that should go into Death Magic instead.

And the real changes that need to go into death shroud involve synergy. Right now, using your profession mechanic basically turns off the Blood Magic tree. This, I feel, is a much larger problem than life blast’s cast time.

Dark Path is easy to dodge and is quite possible to just outrun if you had some range. Other methods of stopping it don’t tend to work, though (I think Swirling Winds and smoke fields still work on stopping it).

Chill of Death is the one method I didn’t mention, and I agree that it is overall unavoidable. It is, however, predictable.

Yamsandjams.3267:

and popping virtue of courage in that way is often wasteful anyways)..

Still affects your allies, so not really.

Got to hand it to Locust Swarm on Warhorn, though. Potential gain of 100% life force from it untraited over its full duration (2% per hit, 5 targets hit with each pulse, 10 pulses). With Gluttony and Banshee’s Wail, it’s potentially 143% life force from one skill (would be 165% if Banshee’s Wail functioned properly with it). The best use is to use it, then hop into death shroud.

Chillomancers can be annoying, but generally speaking, they rely on easy-to-dodge skills to have that kind of effect.

Spinal Shivers: 1.25 second cast. Easy to avoid if you’re paying attention, and similarly easy to predict (they will try to use it when you have 3 or more boons).
Spectral Grasp: short cast, but a high-arc, medium speed projectile. Noticeable and easy to stop. Also unreliable as heck on the pull.
Dark Path: 3/4 second cast, but if you are at 800+ range from the necro, you can actually outrun the projectile (it just barely moves faster than a player with Swiftness). Shortest cooldown of any chill inflicting skill the necro has, and also unblockable. Keep in mind that projectile reflection and Guardian bubbles (all three kinds) don’t stop it.
Chillblains: hardest to dodge, but more because it has a similar animation to Mark of Blood than being really difficult.

zapv.8051:

Your right!!! Nerf necro marks, so they can get buffed. Here’s to a 6k putrid mark.

Strangely, I think Putrid Mark can already hit 6k in zerker builds. It’s the only one that can, but since Life Blast can hit that hard and it has a lower power coefficient than Putrid Mark, it should be possible.

Thank you, Allie, for responding. I agree with MonMalthias that the worst part about the balance in this game is actually the frequency that changes happen, not the changes themselves.

Hopefully this gets real discussion and the balance pacing picks up a fair amount.

“Types of fields” is a different story from “finishers”, though. We have one good, one okay, and two lousy field types. Although, both Dark and Poison fields would be great if we had frequent, reliable blast finishers.

That said, only Ice fields would make sense on a necro out of the other field types. I would adore having ice fields.

And I definitely agree that the reliability of our current finishers is absolute trash. The only one that we can control both placement and timing of is Necrotic Traversal on Flesh Wurm, but using it for a blast finisher is a massive waste.

Lucentfir.7430:

@Drarnor Then play a thief life leech thief, you think it’s miles better then.

That’s my point. Life leech thief is terrible, but it is far better than life leech necro. Necros are supposed to use siphons extensively, yet a thief can out-do them entirely by just slotting Signet of Malice and calling it a day (as the on-hit heal base is higher than Vampiric+Vampiric Precision+Bloodthirst combined, and it also scales with healing power). Deciding to actually make a life stealing build is a bad idea on a thief, but they still out-do the necro quite extensively.

Will.4298:

We’re not asking for the moon and the stars here. Just copy the behavior of the mesmer clones and be done with it.

So, you want minions to die whenever you kill their target?

Mesmer illusions cannot have the same AI as other entities due to the fact they are locked on to a single target. If that target dies, they die.

Hammer/Greatsword with Healing Signet and 20 points in Defense (nabbing Cleansing Ire and Dogged March).

Hey look! I just came up with a build that has superb mobility, damage, CC, sustain, and condition cleanse! And I still have utilities, elite, 50 trait points, and gear to go!

I don’t have an issue with Warriors built for mobility having good mobility. The issue is that they get it with very little tradeoff.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Drarnor what planet are you on? We have close to no finishers. 1 on staff. Minions. Both of which are not used by a lot of people. I have zero finishers or combo fields in pvp.

You didn’t read my post beyond “we have an okay amount.” I went on to clarify that while our numbers are probably fine, their massive unreliability is not.

Lucentfir.7430:

Again Vampiric by itself is terriable, you have to combine it with other things to make it potent(Runes/Food/Sigils/Weapons),

Which Thieves have equal access to, so you’re kind of making my point for me.

Theives don’t have tons of evades unless you’re running D/D, S/D or SB.

Or Withdraw, Feline Grace, their traits for Vigor, or using Roll For Initiative. Off-hand pistol allows for excellent blinding ability as well. Only two venoms are needed to completely blow necro siphoning out of the water, so it’s feasible that their other 6-0 skills are something else if they wanted a siphon build.

Venoms are easily expended/negated by blocks blinds and dodge(So it’s possible to not get a tick of leech at all while consuming the charges).

True, and each failed attack does drastically reduce the difference in siphon values. Then again, a missed attack fails to siphon for anyone.

Control conditions, i mean initiate wise such on weapon sets, and profession mechanics (DS, for necro).

What thief has issues initiating? Ever? Heck, they have a “teleport to target” as their profession mechanic! Which then can give them another powerful control effect (such as from Guardians and Necromancers)

Necro will be able to sustain better then Thief since it has they have DS, which can absorb blows. On paper it appears that way, but in practice it plays out a whole lot differently.

Not exactly. If a Thief starts having serious problems, they are capable of leaving, healing up, and coming back. Necros don’t have that option. Necro sustain is nonexistent unless they can actually hit someone, so if anyone disengages and re-engages, the necro is at a serious disadvantage.

Of course, I could always bring in Signet of Malice, which on its own does more than every siphoning trait on the necro combined.

Considering siphoning is supposed to be a necro thing, shouldn’t they be the best at it?

Stand The Wall.6987:

I dont see an OPness to this suggestion. Necro has almost zero finishers, this would help in that area. Other classes have really short or spammable blasts.

We have an okay number of finishers. The problems is that they are A, not controllable, and B, taking the same slots that our fields do.

A is really the bigger issue. We have no direct control over where the minion finishers go and, other than on bone minions, no way to decide when they go off.

Lucentfir.7430:

Also someone saying a lifesteal build for thief is better than Necro life leech?The only realistic way life leech thief would be possible is if they built for venoms(Most of them on a kitten CD) which is mainly played for as a support build. Thieves won’t have any way to help mitigate damage to sustain with that leech(lowest Base HP, and no protection, DS, or blocks, or control Conditions/CC), and there’s Cooldown for your traited leeches(however long the CD is on Venoms) So i don’t think it would be better than a necro who was built to leech.

Consider the following: Leeching Venoms gives a base heal of 325+20% of Healing Power. At the minimum 200 healing power to get the trait, that is 345 healing (and at least 350 damage) per venom hit. That means to equal the healing from a single venom stack, a necro with Vampiric must successfully hit 11 times.

The lowest number of charges a non-elite venom has is 2, so by activating one skill and hitting twice, you get 22 times the effect of necro life stealing from traits.

Spider Venom alone lets the thief siphon the same amount of health kitten hits from Vampiric. If a necro can even land 55 hits in that 45 second time period, he’s doing well, but a thief can boost those numbers drastically by investing in healing power or equipping more venoms, or just traiting venoms further.

Thieves do, however, have excellent access to control conditions (much like necros) and tons of evades plus stealth access. Having less base health is a weakness, but they have superior methods of not getting hit in the first place (which is better than reducing the damage taken) as well as being capable of restoring their health far faster.

So yes, Thieves can create better siphon builds than necros can. One trait and Spider Venom is all that’s necessary to out-do a necro, and they have significantly further that they can boost it. Each additional trait for venoms increases the ability much further than each additional siphoning trait.

I would say that this is just par for the course, except it wasn’t that long ago that minion AI was pretty reliable. Yeah, it would get stuck in strange elevation change situations like Skyhammer or with people on rocks, but that’s kind of expected. Everywhere else, it was running pretty smoothly.

Now it isn’t running as smoothly. I haven’t been running minions except for the occasional flesh golem or bone minions (suicide runs on the assault knights), but they’ve become kind of unresponsive even when I summon them in melee range of my target.

The problem with life stealing right now is that every siphon that’s any good is rune, food, or sigil based and the ones necros actually get are downright terrible. Thus, any “siphon” build you can do with a necro, you can do at 99.5% or higher efficiency with any class at all. And those classes don’t have to blow trait points. Thieves can actually do a better siphoning build than necros if they choose to.

Siphon necros should be very high sustain, but still weak to CC (as you can’t siphon if you’re not hitting). By its very nature, the build has an accessible counter.

Stand The Wall.6987:

I’m just saying its there and if people dont wanna use it thats their problem.
Other classes have practically no stability.

Yes, but Thieves have tons of evades and short cooldown stunbreaks, as well as the ability to escape when things go badly. Necros lack these things.

And if it doesn’t look like any of those, then the necro stacked them one atop the other like a baddie, so dodging them becomes even more efficient.

The next feature patch I’m sure won’t have them. For one, there has been no discussion at all from the devs to us letting us know what might be happening. Two, did you honestly think they would roll it out in only 3 months? This is ANet we’re talking about.