I guess I would need some universally accepted definition of “greedy.” They are a business. Arenanet is a subsidiary of NCSoft, which is a publicly held corporation traded on the Korean Stock Exchange. Those who invest in stock, including NCSoft, do so with the expectation of return on investment. As most of us who have retirement accounts probably understand, as “owners” of the company our primary concern is our return on investment…which is tied to profitability of the company. Does this make us “greedy?” Well, yes, in a manner of speaking I guess so. I would hope that the companies in which I hold ownership positions would maximize my share value. Otherwise, I have absolutely no incentive to invest in them.
How does or should this impact the features of a product? Generally, I would say that product features should be added and refined such that it results in the greatest customer retention and attraction of new customers. In terms of purchases, we obviously want that maximized as well. At what point does the enthusiastic pursuit of sales and profit cross some ethical line? Other than the obvious legal line, that has been the subject of business ethics debates for decades (well…even longer than that).
One of the beauties of the market in product areas such as this is that there is a lot of competition and switching costs are relatively low. When I purchased GW2 I received pretty much what was promised me. I have purchased gems in the cash store and pretty much got what was advertised. It gets stickier, perhaps, when we begin to use the argument maybe some promises of future features were either explicitly or implicitly made. There is likely little chance of avoiding the phenomenon of different customers perceiving different implied promises.
For me, however, I feel that I have received what I purchased. If the game design moves in a direction that I am unhappy with, I can either adapt or move to another product. I realize that this may sound kind of “uppity” but, while we all may think of this entire thing as being an MMO, it is in a more generic sense just a commercial product that we can either purchase or not purchase.
I am wholeheartedly in favor of having to work my way through the zones on foot. Once I uncover areas of the map and get the WPs I want the option to move quickly. Sometimes I will plow my way back through killing and doing events….and sometimes I go to where I want and do what I need to do. An example…several days ago I was cooking up some food and found that I needed an ingredient sold by a karma vendor in the middle of Timberline Falls. Now, if I have to run all the way down there just to pick up some shallots…that is beyond irritating.
I agree that many of the mid-level zones seem very lonely. In order to possibly correct this, I would hope that they would work on more incentives to be playing in the zones…rather than taking away conveniences to try and force you to transit on foot.
Just my nickel’s worth.
Money is the problem with skill based rewards in MMOs. Gamers are entitled. Many people simply cannot accept that there is some sort of reward locked behind content they cannot complete. They will complain of bugs, bad mechanics, cheap designs… but rarely will they admit they simply are not good enough to do it. This creates an unhappy, unstable player base.
And thus, we get content pushed out and designed for the masses. Everyone can do everything, so the game can have maximum retention and make that $$$. It’s not unlike little league soccer back when we were 10. Everyone plays, and everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season. Can’t hurt anyone’s feelings.
To be fair, highly skilled players also complain if they feel the content is “beneath them.” Your post comes across to me as laying all the blame for all the game’s shortcomings in your view on casual, less skilled players. Perhaps I am wrong and just reading it the wrong way. A little empathy goes a long way.
And…yes, I readily admit that I am just not skilled enough for some content and…no, I do not feel entitled to the same rewards as those who are skilled enough to do it.
Sorry if that came off as kind of elitist, I was simply trying to explain why a heavily skill based MMO either isn’t happening or would be a niche game. Also, you may accept that, but many people do not. One only has to look at all the Liadri hate over the past two weeks to see this in GW2.
I personally prefer a game strikes a balance between the two, but that’s hard to do. You inevitably get one or both sides complaining about the other. At the moment, I think GW2 lies heavily on the skill-less (for lack of better wording) spectrum. It’s not a bad thing, but people need to realize that’s their approach.
Players who love games like Dark Souls or Ninja Gaiden types or I Wanna Be the Guy / spinoffs are in the minority in MMOs. Unfortunately, there really are very few options in the genre for skill reliant PvE.
No problem…and I totally agree on the desirability of balance you spoke of. And, to be fair, I too prefer a game in which when I beat an encounter it is because of my skill (the little that I have) and not sheer luck. I also agree that it is likely a true exercise in frustration for developers to try and please everyone. Finally…and sadly, when I play I end up being highly focused on what I want and expect without regard for what others want. When I step back and think about it, I realize that I am not the center of the universe…so perhaps it is good for me to take that step back now and again.
And thanks for the thoughtful response.
Money is the problem with skill based rewards in MMOs. Gamers are entitled. Many people simply cannot accept that there is some sort of reward locked behind content they cannot complete. They will complain of bugs, bad mechanics, cheap designs… but rarely will they admit they simply are not good enough to do it. This creates an unhappy, unstable player base.
And thus, we get content pushed out and designed for the masses. Everyone can do everything, so the game can have maximum retention and make that $$$. It’s not unlike little league soccer back when we were 10. Everyone plays, and everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season. Can’t hurt anyone’s feelings.
To be fair, highly skilled players also complain if they feel the content is “beneath them.” Your post comes across to me as laying all the blame for all the game’s shortcomings in your view on casual, less skilled players. Perhaps I am wrong and just reading it the wrong way. A little empathy goes a long way.
And…yes, I readily admit that I am just not skilled enough for some content and…no, I do not feel entitled to the same rewards as those who are skilled enough to do it.
This is what I said before. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Play-The-Way-You-Want/first#post2228888
Rephrased here.
I think Guild Wars is the best when those extrinsic rewards are provided for things that are intrinsically rewarding. However, an extrinsic reward can be useful to push someone out of their comfort zone.For example, if I were afraid to run a dungeon because I didn’t know the path and I’ve heard that people are kittens to newbies, but I do it because I can save 5 gold on the sword I want if I do it a five times, then that’s all good. If I find that I hate dungeons I can spend a relatively small amount of money and avoid them.
On the other hand, I think extrinsic rewards that (for all practical purposes) “force” someone to do stuff they hate or find dull are bad. If I feel like I have to run a dungeon to get the sword I want (not talking about skins) because otherwise I have to pay 50 gold then the incentives are too misaligned. Because even if hate running dungeons, I’ll do it because the alternative isn’t reasonable.
Nicely put.
Interesting question and point of view. I will preface my answer by saying that I do not pay much attention to many of the rewards such as minis, skins, etc. I have only a modest amount of gold and most of my toons have exotic gear (karma, tp, etc.) along with a few laurel and guild commendation ascended pieces. Much of what we receive, however, does not phase me one way or the other. So, from this limited perspective, I don’t really experience that “reward overload.”
With that caveat…I agree that the game cannot be devoid of rewards from a practical perspective. I also feel that a good mix of intrinsic and extrinsic reward works best for me. From my professional life both teaching management and owning my own business, I have found that most people are motivated by a combination of intrinsic and extrinsic rewards…with neither alone being sufficient to create a motivated and enthusiastic staff.
If, however, I look beyond my own limited preferences and try to consider the larger group of players, it does seem like folks get really caught up in farming rewards. Whether that is good or bad I cannot say. It doesn’t bother me at all and, I guess if they are having fun at it, then maybe it isn’t all bad. That just doesn’t appeal to me very much.
What I don’t really understand is that my image of a “Casual” or someone whose bad / just doesn’t care about the game, isn’t someone who would even know what a forum is, let alone take the time to post on one.
Yet there are tons of posts on here calling people who want challenging content “entitled” or use any manner of trickery to turn them into some kind of demon. Its almost as if there are “Hardcore” Casuals, people that take pride in being sub-par at the game, and want things handed to them w/o any effort.
Its a pretty scary thought.
First…not sure how you came to your definition of “casual” but is seems a bit harsh to me. Perhaps I am a “hardcore casual” as you so delicately put it. I play a lot and I enjoy the game. I try to improve my play and work on my characters to improve them. I am not nor do I make any claim to a high level of skill. That is not, however, the same as “taking pride in being subpar.” I don’t go around with a sign on my armour stating how crappy I am and how happy I am about that. Not at all. I have a good time…I do what I can do…and I am realistic about my skills (owning my own business has taught me the art of self-evaluation).
I have not seen this huge trend of anyone implying that more skilled players feel “entitled.” I fully expect that they, like me, want content that is appropriate for their skill level and they want to be rewarded for that. I do not have a problem with that per se. What would discourage me is if the game became an endless cycle of increasing challenge aimed only at the more skilled player.
From a very practical perspective, that means that in order for this game to continue to appeal to a wide audience, there are always going to be a few players for whom the game is ridiculously easy…and a few players at the other extreme for whom what we have is far too challenging. For the bulk of us under the curve, though, there would be a range of challenge all the way from easy to hard and we would make our choices based on our preferences.
Finally…this debate is certainly not unique to GW2. It could almost have been cut and pasted from forums for a number of MMOs. From my seven years in WoW, I can say that they have struggled with it the entire time and continue to struggle with it. Other games…pretty much the same. There are probably games that cater only to the highly skilled players (I have indeed avoided some MMOs simply because they seemed too challenging for my tastes)…and there may be those that cater to the totally incompetent (haven’t seen any of those yet). The most successful, though, seem to try and build in something for a wide range of skill level. The trick seems to be to be able cater to different groupings of players in a way that is more inclusive than exclusive. For me personally (not speaking for anyone else), GW2 has done that. There is plenty for me to do while, at the same time, there is content that is clearly too challenging for me.
I think the OP has a valid point. I also think that there are far more people not interested in hard content than are interested in hard content, but I don’t see why we can’t have both.
The problem is, Anet isn’t likely to make more content for the smaller percentage of players…and lest you think people who like hard content are the majority, we know from past interviews with devs that that’s not really the case.
As an example, Ghost Crawler, the head dev for WoW, has said publicly that only 5% of the playerbase ever beat the hardest content in the game. That’s not a huge percentage.
There’s a reason why games are getting easier and easier. Obviously if everyone loved hard content, games would be getting harder…but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
But I think that there should be hard stuff in the game for people who like hard stuff…as long as it doesn’t reward them with power. That I’m dead set against.
I mean if you’re really really good, you don’t need more power. It’s the guys who are really bad who need more power. lol
I am completely against significant gear treadmills, check the link in my original post and tell me if you think that’d be to broken.
I agree with Vayne’s post and was heartened by the OP response. My fear (and I infer similar fear on the part of others based on the comments I see) is that as you add more and more “challenging content” with rewards that help improve game play then it leads to even more challenging content with even better rewards…and on it goes. As a less skilled player, I am completely okay that more skilled players will get some better rewards than me. In fact, I am very happy about it because it gives me heart that these skilled players will hang around longer and make the game richer for all of us.
The key is balance. How do you reward that skill on challenging content without starting that endless tiered reward structure that vastly widens the gap between the more skilled and the less skilled players. The gap is already there simply by virtue of the skill gap. Rewarding that skill in ways that lets these highly skilled players play even more challenging content just exacerbates it. This, of course, assumes that the rewards envisioned improve game play. If the rewards are focused in other ways, such as appearance, titles, achievements, etc. then it is a very different issue. Since I care relatively little about appearance, skins, legendary weapons, I am not the best person to comment on that. My concern is simply the rewards system as it affects game play.
From another aging player…
“I feel your pain”
Yes, there are times when the mind knows exactly what to do but the hands won’t cooperate. Lots of good advice in the posts above so I won’t repeat any of it. The issue at hand may be this particular piece but it really applies more broadly to the entire game, at least for me. At the end of the day, there are some of the things that I can do easily…some things I can do with considerable effort…and some things that are, frankly, probably beyond my ability given my innate skills and time/energy available. That said…two key points.
First, when I approach these types of things, I can usually get a sense pretty quickly whether they are within my ability or not. If, as I screw it up once or twice, I can see my problem…or if I go check out others’ approaches on Youtube and I learn “the trick”…then I persevere. If, however, it becomes clear that I understand what needs to be done but just cannot do it (i.e., jumping puzzle in the lab in Caledon Forest), I shrug and move on.
Second point…the beauty of GW2 for someone like me is that there is very little in terms of content that is “must do.” In seven years of WoW, I learned that it is very sequential. If you do A, B, and C…but cannot do D, then you will not be able to do E, F, G… In GW2, there is very little that you must do in order to do other things. I have been playing since beta…have six level 80s and am having a grand time. I do a variety of things and I am not usually afraid to give new things a shot.. At the same time, I am not the least bit afraid to shrug and move on if it does not work out.
Not sure if this will help or not…but at least you know you are not alone with this issue.
Once per day, per account, you get the guaranteed rare chest (the one that pops up in the corner of your screen)
Once per day, per character, you get the boss chest (the 3D one that’s typically filled with salvage fodder).
My experience is consistent with this. Heaven knows I have tried getting more than one a day but, alas…no such luck for me.
So, will we have another chance to buy them? At the time, i didn’t have the money to buy it, so i was wandering if we will ever have the chance to buy it again? Cheers guys
The answer is yes.
10 days of special sales in the Black Lion Trading company which will bring back limited sale items such as the gathering tools. This sale will start on Fri Aug 23 at 12:00 am PDT.
http://dulfy.net/2013/08/13/gw2-the-queens-speech-patch-details-revealed/
For me, this is good news. I bought a few of each when they were out and they have been well worth it for me. Would love the opportunity to outfit the rest of my family.
Lots of things to address here. I think it’s best to do this in order
@Elothar
It’s simply a matter of opinion. Some feel that guilds should operate like online social groups, others – myself included – feel that guilds should operate like online communities. It could be old fashioned nostalgia of previous guild systems, but it definitely seems like the low requirement, casual approach to guild creation in GW2 produces more casual groups than online communities.
So, I guess my point is that guilds should be what the people in them want them to be. As for GW2 “producing” more casual guilds, I do see your point but do not really agree. I go back to the idea that guilds/players will do what best suits them. Granted that Anet has set a somewhat low institutional bar – but for me that merely means that it is simple to get up and running with a guild. Once we are up and running, the GM and members will make their own decisions about what the guild is about.
Orange players VS Rock players
This topic is ridiculous, contrasting completely unrelated things. Skilled is the opposite of unskilled, entitled is the opposite of earned. There are entitled and honestly gainful people in every level and discipline.
Agreed.
If we absolutely must stratify the player base in this manner, then you are really looking at two very different defining criteria – stratification based on sense of entitlement and stratification based on level of skill. Having skill does not automatically mean that a player does not feel entitled just as a lack of skill does not mean they do feel entitled.
Guilds are not supposed to be a this casual.
Not saying you are wrong here…but how did you come to this conclusion? Given that the requirements to start and maintain a guild are somewhat minimal, it would seem (my take on it, anyway) that guilds are supposed to be whatever the guilds want them to be. Perhaps I missed something…and you are correct. Wouldn’t be the first time that I was wrong.
Having no data to back me up, I cannot say what matters most to the majority of players. I think (opinion only) that it is not as simple as “loot is all that matters” or “content and having fun is all that matters.” It seems to me that it is a more complex combination. I like loot as well as the next person. I will not engage in activities that I do not enjoy in order to get loot…had enough of that in other games.
With regard to the famous (or to some “infamous”) Manifesto…I watched it a number of times before release and frankly it helped to influence me to purchase and play the game. I have not been disappointed at all. Are things different in some respects than I envisioned in the beginning? Of course. Some better…maybe some worse…but in general, from my own perspective with my own preferences, it seems to hold up pretty well.
The reason that the Manifesto still works for me is that I came to GW2 after some consideration because I was unhappy with the other MMOs that I had tried and played…some for long periods of time. The key points in the Manifesto really “spoke” to me in terms of the things that I did not like about the other games. And true to my expectations, the things that were important to me have played out well in GW2.
I get the feeling this was directed at me and let me respond.
Just look at how the game has been progression this past year. Nobody bothered with South Cove until they included the 200% mf and what happen after they took it away? Nobody bothers with SCove anymore. The inclusion of Ascended armor, the new changes to dungeon loot and the inclusion champions loot. The point being people only seem to be focusing only on lewt (except maybe WvW and Spvp to some degree).
Anyways, most changes in PvE have been mainly about LOOT.
In a way you are right, I have no direct evidence that it is about loot, but I can infer based on the changes to the game that loot seems to be the biggest motivator for most PvEers.
Not at all…was not really directed at anyone in particular. My apologies if it came across that way. My point with that first paragraph was really that my offering was based only on my personal observation and opinion and should be considered that way.
Your points are certainly well taken although I am still not convinced that the majority feel that way…at least not to the absolute extent (loot is all that matters). While I probably refer back to WoW more than I should (it is my longest experience with an MMO), there is ample evidence in WoW of people willing to do just about anything for loot. But I also see a lot of people (many of my friends) migrating to GW2 specifically because of that…the desire to spend more time on thing we like. Now…granted…it is fantastic if great loot drops from the things we like doing anyway. But the difference here in GW2 seems to be that, if I do not want to do an activity that offers great loot, I can pass on it with the confidence that it will not adversely impact my ability to enjoy the game.
As for Southsun, I certainly cannot dispute you since I spent little time there – killed the Karka Queen once and did some of the events in the beginning. It didn’t take long, though, until it seemed like there was little over there that was really fun so I went elsewhere and did something else. Again…important to note that this is just me…and I speak for no one else.
The point about PVE changes being mostly about loot…well…yeah…ya got me on that one. But still, back to my original intent with the post – I do not really feel misled by the Manifesto. Not everything has worked out exactly as they envisioned but I chalk this up more to enthusiastic and committed developers and artists than to deliberate misspeaking. To be sure, there is a certain amount of puffery in the Anet promotion – generally characteristic of most marketing communication efforts. I tend to overlook much of this as I overlook the puffery in just about every promotion campaign.
Having no data to back me up, I cannot say what matters most to the majority of players. I think (opinion only) that it is not as simple as “loot is all that matters” or “content and having fun is all that matters.” It seems to me that it is a more complex combination. I like loot as well as the next person. I will not engage in activities that I do not enjoy in order to get loot…had enough of that in other games.
With regard to the famous (or to some “infamous”) Manifesto…I watched it a number of times before release and frankly it helped to influence me to purchase and play the game. I have not been disappointed at all. Are things different in some respects than I envisioned in the beginning? Of course. Some better…maybe some worse…but in general, from my own perspective with my own preferences, it seems to hold up pretty well.
The reason that the Manifesto still works for me is that I came to GW2 after some consideration because I was unhappy with the other MMOs that I had tried and played…some for long periods of time. The key points in the Manifesto really “spoke” to me in terms of the things that I did not like about the other games. And true to my expectations, the things that were important to me have played out well in GW2.
Guess: Playable Skritt race.
(Just because I’d love that! Nothing to suggest that as even a remote possibility.)
I’d buy a new character slot for this.
My Asura necro when spawning a minion…“I’ve created life…of a sort”
Asura at the Thaumanova Reactor when revived “Thank you…that was surprisingly helpful.”
Okay…I am biased toward the Asura.
I am okay with it. To me it seems I get the biggest karma “bang” from the jugs and they are account bound so it doesn’t seem to matter much to me.
I admit that I really don’t notice. I pay attention to gameplay, player interaction, and general sense of community. In fairness, I am not really sure what a legendary would look like since I have never looked into them.
For those that want to “…allow us to randomly challenge a friend to a duel”…does this mean you will only challenge your friends? I have no problem if you want to duel your friends…go for it. My objection to dueling in general is that (in other games) I get challenged…and then browbeat when I refuse. Or…continued challenges after I refuse. Second issue is the insane amount of duel-related chat that goes on in community channels.
If there was an auto-decline with harassment sanctions against those who pushed the issue after a decline…and a mandated separate channel for duel-related chat then I honestly don’t care. That said, it would seem that an instanced dueling area would be a better fit for both duelists and non-duelists.
To anyone else who is having this problem, try vexa’s lab
This was my missing piece as well.
What comes to mind for me is the line from “Blazing Saddles”…referring to a “Laurel and Hearty Handshake…”
I have a bit of a different perspective on this. I have owned and operated a private business of about 15 years and I look at this, and similar issues, through a decidedly business filter. In my mind, what happened is that customers received something for which they had not directly paid…and it was given as a surprise. When I make a purchase decision regarding gems…or anything else…I use the basic economic principles of utility and cost. I determine how much I want or need something and then determine whether the asking price is worth it for me. When I purchase gems, it is because there is something in the gem store that I think is worth my money (typically extra bank slots, bag slots or character slots). The deal is consummated…I get what I want…they get what they wanted…deal done. But now, I get something extra as a surprise “thank you.” It has no strings attached…no conditions. Just a simple “thank you.” Maybe they planned it all along…maybe not. But…the minute that they tell you in advance, it is no longer a free thank you gift but rather another incentive to get you to spend money. Kind of a like a “but three and get one free” deal.
A surprise thank you gift seems thoughtful to me. I take the gift in the spirit in which I believe it was offered. Had they given me advance warning and told me that if I purchased X amount of gems I would get a free kite, it would not really seem like a free kite to me…but rather a part of the packaging of the deal – gems plus a kite for Y dollars. Both are legitimate marketing tactics but I am less likely to tumble on to the package deal than to buy what I want “straight up” and be pleasantly surprised by a free gift after the fact.
All that said, though, I am not sure what either tactic has to do with trust. They did not cheat us out of anything. They did not falsely represent what they were selling…or the price. No bait and switch that I can see. The only thing I can discern is they decided to give out a gift without prior “warning.” While others may well look on this warily, it does not seem like a trust issue to me.
Palu…thank you for having the courage to share this with us. It reminds me that there are real people behind the names. God bless you…
So…going to wade in and give this a shot. Seriously…not trolling and not trying to be a jerk.
First, I am not quite sure from your post…comparing the text and the title…whether the point is that competition is a must for the game…a must for an player…or some other must. You say that you want people to respond with their real opinion but when they do, you say that they are irrelevant. I am not quite getting that one. All that said…
No, I am not a big fan of competition in an MMO. That is my opinion…my feeling. It is based on this. I own a business. I am up to my proverbial butt in competition all day long. My livelihood and that of my family depends on me competing successfully every single day. When I am at home playing, competition is the last thing that I want. I enjoy doing things with my guild. I like the cooperation…the sense of shared adventure and accomplishment. I have run a few dungeons with friends…same thing. I enjoy the cooperation and sense of shared accomplishment when we finish (or shared humility when we get the crap kicked out of us). I enjoy open world gaming…doing stuff that interests me at any given time or jumping in to help out others that I encounter.
So, no, for me (my opinion…my feeling) competition is not a must. I realize that others like it and I would not dare to suggest that they are wrong or that their expectation of the game is in any way less relevant than mine. We all come to the game for our own reasons.
Caveat: I am not that familiar with the concepts of sandbox MMOs so it was hard for me to consider the discussion within that context. That said…
First, I am not sure that “loss aversion” is the right term for this. I know of almost no one that is not “loss averse.” If you ask me if I want to go lose some money, lose a bet, or even (on a grander scale) lose a war…my answer would be a resounding “no.” Coming from the business world, the term “risk aversion” is one that seems more suited to the discussion. In considering risk and reward, all things being equal, some people are more risk averse than others. Even narrowed down to a single person, the degree of risk tolerated would seem to be some ratio of the value of the reward to the individual versus the impact of the loss to the individual.
Another key point in the discussion is consideration of the motivation of individuals to play MMOs. Some players are highly competitive; others are social creatures who thrive on the interpersonal contact; while still others come to the games as a means of “decompressing.” The elements that make a “good” MMO are likely to vary with that motivation. While some may well thrive on heightened risk, others would likely turn away from it. With that in mind, is there some objective metric that tells us whether an MMO is “good” or “bad” other than market performance? Certainly there are technical considerations….graphics, music, voice-overs, diversity of activity, etc. but, assuming most companies in this business are capable of competently providing those elements, how is a good MMO distinguished from a bad one?
Finally, as the author points out, the entire concept of the MMO is to create a virtual environment where loss will not have the same impact that it does in real life. If we are downed by an enemy…PVP or a PVE mob…the consequences in game include a bit of silver for repairs, the cost of a WP, loss of time, and aggravation of having to fight my way back to the point where I died. Keep in mind that this is considered alongside the probability of loss versus the probability of success. A simplistic view of this would be that, as you either increase the impact of loss or increase the probability of failure, the potential reward would have to be increased in order for the function to hold. But…(and this is nothing more than a guess…no formal research to back it up), I doubt whether this is a linear function with no limits. I suspect that as the consequences of loss go up or the likelihood of failure goes up, the rewards would have to increase by ever increasing amounts until at some point there would be no reward great enough to justify the level or risk.
But the MMO, by its very nature, serves to dampen that function. The risks are virtual (other than our expenditure of time and what little cash we play for the access). The developers can increase the magnitude of loss consequence or reward along with difficulty (which impacts probability of success) and within a range, I expect that it might heighten the experience. As the magnitude gets cranked higher and higher, though, it will certainly weed out a lot of more casual players. The question is…does that make it a better MMO?
I started out in several guilds and tried the rotating representation thing…but it really didn’t work for me. I now belong to just one guild…I represent it on all my toons…and things are fine for me. I don’t have strong feelings one way or the other about the larger picture of whether it is good for the game or not.
Favorite that I have seen – Mesmerelda – my wife is ticked that someone beat her to that one. Favorite of my own toons…Asuran Eng – Oodles.
For me, there is something in the OP that resonates. WoW was my first…and wow…what magic. At various times, out of curiosity, I tried EQ, Conan, SWTOR…and they never measured up. I have been with WoW for seven years now (my sub is up on August). I came to GW2 as a result of my gradual change in game playing preferences. I love this game and it has some magic but not the kind of magic I felt when I set foot in Azeroth for the very first time.
But…to be clear…I am making a conscious choice of GW2 over WoW. I do not expect the kind of magic I felt when I entered Azeroth the first time. To be fair, very likely much of that was simply the whole concept of the virtual world, which I had never been exposed to. I understand that I cannot “re-live” that initial experience. Like many things in life, the “first experience”…the newness and mystery…just adds a component to the experience that cannot be replicated.
That said…I do love the GW2 magic.
People don’t hate talent. People hate braggarts.
Well said!
I am a decidedly mediocre (or possibly worse) player. I admire talent. I have played with some remarkable players and hold them in the highest esteem..seriously. I marvel at what these players can do. No envy…no jealousy…just admiration. What I dislike…as one who is not so talented…are those with the talent you claim to have using this as a foundation for denigrating others. This unfortunately is sometimes the case.
As for braggarts…well…they are annoying but I largely just disregard them…whether in game or IRL.
Going back to the original post…I am not sure how a “game” can be antisocial. I can understand “players” being more antisocial on one game than another, however, I have not found that to be the case with GW2. I too played WoW for many years and had very few in-game friends. It’s just my play style. I interact with people in the world…greet them, thank them when they help out, give answers to questions when asked, and acknowledge thanks from other people. I join in group efforts when the opportunity presents itself. I do not, however, go around making lots of friends nor do I want to. I am in a very, very small guild of friends and that is enough socialization for me.
For those that like more socialization; more online friends…I don’t see why GW2 would be any more unfriendly to that style that any other MMO. In Wow, you do not need friends to help you quest or do dailies. If you LFD or LFR, there is relatively little “friend-making” that seems to go on. I agree that true raiding or PVP guilds are likely to be tight-knit but, honestly, it would seem that the same would hold true in GW2.
Am not saying that the OP has it wrong…perhaps this game is not as friendly to that play style as they would like. It’s just that, from my perspective, it seems about the same in terms of opportunity as any other MMO I have tried (WoW, SWTOR, Conan, Everquest…).
Mounts…especially those that defy gravity.
Raids…
I am just now unsubbing on WoW…because the Blizz model for this game is “all PVE roads lead to the raid….otherwise you are wasting your time.”
If you create raids with all of the attendant rewards that minimize the rewards and pleasure from other PVE endeavors, then we have nothing more than WoW with good graphics. It seems to me (from my own peculiar perspective) that Anet has tried to adhere to the notion that players should be able to play to their own style and preferences and still earn meaningful rewards. Sure, there are rewards in dungeons, particularly the explorer mode, that are not available to us mere mortals. I don’t have a problem with players who do these kinds of things getting some rewards that I cannot have. I do have a problem, though, when you set up a gear progression/grind in which nothing of substance is available without being a truly hardcore raider/dungeon-runner.
In short…I am happy with the current design.
First…OP – great thread. Thanks. It has been a hoot reading all of this. I find myself nodding at some of the posts. Others clearly come from players far more advanced than I. One thing that should come through clearly….keeping everyone engaged and happy is a monumental task. I, for one, am very happy with Anet’s efforts in this.
So…my style. Nothing new here. As others have said, casual, explorer, PVE, will do dungeons if friends are on and will go. Sometimes I just relax and marvel at the beauty of the world. I love the world boss events…even if it does sometime seem like a very brief loot-fest. It is…at least for me…fun to see and interact with all the players gathered waiting for the dragon…dancing…playing…and doing the things we all do.
Just having a good time.
Would I buy a new expac and why?
Absolutely! I enjoy it. I look forward to logging on and playing. I enjoy the content and I enjoy the choices I have that seem meaningful to me.
Dead on…a good read.
It seems to me that the contention in this issue is tied largely to the decision by Anet to conclude the personal story in a 5-player dungeon group. Absent that, I don’t see the issue. If you like dungeons…do dungeons. Run with your friends, guildies, or in PUGs. If you don’t care for dungeon play, do other things. GW2 is incredibly diverse and has lots to do. I have played a number of MMOs and this is by far the most friendly to those who choose not to do dungeons and the like.
As for the personal story – Anet has already made the decision that Zhaitan is killed in a dungeon by a group of five. This obviously creates “winners” and “losers.” Those that like the dungeon play are happy…those that don’t are obviously disappointed. A compromise that pleased at least a few more people might have been to have the “Personal Story” end before the last fight in the dungeon…with a note that “…it is now time to join other heroes for the final confrontation…” Allow those that worked their story to that point to get the achievement for the “Personal Story” completion. Those that go on to the 5-man instance get an additional achievement, titles, better gear…whatever.
Having suffered through the Blizz forums for years, I hate to see this community divide itself along the same lines. GW2 does indeed seem to live up to much of its promise to provide something for everyone and to make the world experience much more meaningful than other MMOs. The biggest challenge that I see (from a decidedly mediocre (at best) player) is to avoid the model that Blizz has taken – “all roads lead to the raid (or dungeon in this case).”
Having dungeons is great…having multiple difficulties is good, I guess. I would never advocate that they remove them or nerf them just for players like me. I am okay that some content is beyond my ability…no complaints. I just hope that Anet doesn’t take the approach that they need to convince me to like dungeons. Been there…done that…got the scars to prove it.
While I am very disappointed, at least they told us early on. At least now I can disengage from this particular content and find something else to do before I have boatloads of time, energy, and enthusiasm invested.
I guess I do not have the discerning eye that most of you have…I really enjoyed the entire thing, including Trahearne. I would probably preferred to see fewer characters killed off. It seems that, especially toward the end, they were dropping like flies. In the event that I were to actually do a future expansion of the PS, I cannot think of a lot that I would change. The deal breaker for me, though…and the reason I quit this PS before it ended…was bumping up against the dungeon requirement. If they change that approach in future iterations, that would be great.
I have to say I enjoyed this part as well, although it took me a minute or so to grasp the mechanics of the fight. I thought the entire encounter was quite good.
Some great posts here. I have only leveled up an Asura Engineer so that is my only point of reference. Also, I am probably an average to below average skill player. I just abandoned the personal story line when I discovered that the last mission requires a dungeon group. Up to this point, the difficulty levels seem to be all over the place. Some missions are incredibly easy while others (Starving the Beast) took me days of experimentation to accomplish. I did solo everything eventually up to the point I quit. I found it easier for me if I waited until I was a few levels higher than the mission. Also…the comments about gear are dead on. Having the best gear that you can, even though it is downgraded, is very helpful.
In the end, this whole PS thing is kind of a personal contradiction for me. I really enjoyed it more than just about another other part of the game. Now that I am up to the dungeon, it has been really tough on me to just let go before finishing. Six plus years of Blizzard and WoW, though, have soured me on PUG dungeon groups. To the OP points, though…there are definitely missions with a lot of intensity…maybe tuned just a bit higher than I would like. My judgment of them and the overall PS is now biased by the abrupt requirement for a dungeon group. Had I known about the dungeon while spending days on Starving the Beast….I would have just let go then instead of powering through.
I also was disappointed to find that finishing my personal story required dungeon completion. The PS has been a really fun…sometimes challenging…experience and it was really building in a cool way with those last few segments. Now…hmmm…well, I guess I just move on to something else. While I enjoy playing out in the world with people…and there are incredible opportunities for that, six + years of Blizzard has left me a bit down on organized dungeon groups…so I just avoid them.
That said, I respect that this is a decision made by the developers and I expect that it was vetted and discussed rather rigorously before doing this. I don’t like it…but I understand and accept that I do no have to like everything. I also understand and accept that by refusing to do dungeons, I am foregoing a good bit of content. The decision is up to me and the consequences of that decision accrue to me…so be it. But…and this is a really big but…you might have warned us ahead of time.
I have spent considerable time on the PS…only to drop it now before the end. The one saving grace is that I know better than to start it when I begin my new character. This is, again, a decision that will remove one more piece of content for me. But the implications go beyond that. We now have the Living Story…which seems cool enough and something to get excited about. Is this going to end up in a dungeon as well? Based on what I have experienced with the Personal Story and the lack of any information to the contrary, I am concluding that it probably will involve a dungeon and will now just stop bothering with those snow and dirt covered objects.
My desire isn’t that they change the arrangement now…probably not practical. I just hope that they recognize that not everyone plays dungeons (even though they may well enjoy playing with lots of players out in the world) and giving us a heads up on activity lines that will end up in dungeons will help us make better decisions about allocating our play time.