Guild Wars 2

NinjaEd.3946:

Dee Jay.2460:

You think with all these sweeping changes they might take 15 minutes to fix this thing, but alas, all is vain.

Sadly they want LR to grant stealth, they just can’t graps the fact that reveal is unavoidable when up against a trait that has 0 cast time and no method of activating it yourself. I remember reading a post that they do not want the 1 point SA minor trait to grant anything but stealth. I wish I could find that thread, but it was briefly discussed and a long long time ago.

but… but… LR doesn’t grant stealth does it? i thought it granted reveal? Oo

is it weird that i found your ini management the most impressive thing? teach me your ways! (drools)

DeadlySynz.3471:

The only thing I can think of that might be a weakness for a warrior, is in the hands of a player whom think’s their invincible. Stroll into battle thinking they are godly only to get wiped out because they in fact think they are invincible.

wouldn’t say that’s the only weakness but… my gosh that happens a lot. (bags) Warrior players seem to be especially prone to rushing a zerg by themselves xP

shadowpass.4236:

Emi.4152:

hmm… for the warrior i would say the greatest weakness is the obvious animations.

so fricken annoying when ppl say this, u are implying ltd (learn to dodge) and yet, I bet u still get hit with more than half of the telegraphed skills warriors have.

its not that they are telegraphed, u can dodge a few, but they are on such short cooldown that u run out of dodges after a few attacks.

Of course i still get hit by telegraphed skills. Sometimes i don’t notice, sometimes i’m concentrating on something else, or even sometimes i’m completely out of everything to do anything about it. But the fact remains that warrior hard hitting / cc skills are well telegraphed and you have more of a chance of mitigating them than you would with other classes. (as well as being predictable for certain builds)

On the flip side… what exactly would be the point for warriors if every single worthwhile skill they have is avoided 100% of the time? <- not exactly what i would call balance either.

If anything, the only things i’m not entirely happy about when fighting warriors is that their stat advantage seems a little too high & the nike warriors are… well, nike warriors :P but thats not too bad, i don’t go into every fight expecting to win.

Paavotar.3971:

And yet our primary source of dealing with these conditions come from runes and food that everyone else can have as well. And you see warriors actively pushing to deal with these conditions because they hinder warrior in great extend because we have no instant teleports or anything like that that would bypass these conditions. All of our mobility skills, which warrior is pretty dependant on, is affected a lot by cripple and chill.

also have nifty traits and condi cleanse :>

Most warriors carry Healing signet that grants roughly 450-500 hps when you combine it with adrenaline health. That is our healing. They don’t have any fast way to heal up if struck with burst, but if they are left to regen afterwards it’s no problem. You need to keep the pressure up when you face warrior.

1. that’s considered sustain not burst or rather… sustained burst! :P and the amount of ‘sustained burst!’ you need to take down a warrior far exceeds all other classes. (all classes and builds are ‘weak’ against ‘being hit over and over and over non-stop’ and warriors are better at dealing with that than others. i.e. not a weakness xP)

2. you know you can… press on the healing signet button for a bunch of hp all at once right? but most warriors won’t… because the passive is very very very nice.

If the warrior doesn’t have LB with them you can pretty easily reduce their condi cleansing by a lot, just avoid the obviously big animated burst skills. What comes to BS, if you see it start avoiding the warrior if you are condibuild. You can easily save your biggest condi burst after it ends, then you have 30+ seconds to stack him with a tons of stuff.

most classes have problems with many many condis being stacked on them at the same time and will also die (faster than a warrior due to lower health as well….) and they don’t even have LB.

I’m not saying there is one magical weakness warrior has no way to protect itself from, but warrior has quite a few of them and while covering one they open another a bit more. Because warrior has a ways to defend itself against most of it’s weaknesses (not in one magical build) and is rather easy to adapt to new environment it looks like we don’t have any weaknesses when it’s not actually true.

agreed and never said i didn’t Oo

but saying… lots and lots of damage/condi will kill a warrior and that is a weakness! is going abit too far… xP

edit – please keep in mind that me not agreeing with a few points does not mean i’m automatically saying “OhMiGoSH war OP everywhere Nerf everything!!!”

i like how you used shadow step offensively so much :> using about turn and free camera might make your withdraws more accurate though!

yushhh ninja nurse!

i imagine it could be useful to a support ele in wvw no? an unkillable cc spammer and water fountain :P

Paavotar.3971:

- Weak to move impaires
We can stack a lot of reduction to them, but thats it. Our only ways to deal with them is cleansing or stacking that reduction. We don’t have instant teleport skills to go around them. This weakness is the reason you see so many warriors with the -40% food and runes to reduce it.

wouldn’t say this is a warrior weakness as warriors deal with things like that better than most. Would consider it an strength if anything Oo

- Burst damage
Yes, we die to it. Outside Endure Pain and couple blocks with relatively long CD’s we quickly die to damage spikes. We can heal roughly 450 to 500 hps and additional shout heals but that opens us to other weaknesses if we trait for that. So as long as you can keep high pressure on us and can bait our EP and blocks you will down the warrior in matter of seconds.

Definitely is not a warrior weakness. i don’t think any class has the burst potential to take down a glass warrior in a single burst. in my experience, it will always take multiple bursts to take a warrior down. it’s almost like saying a weakness of people with hp is damage xP again… would consider this a strength… warriors have the best anti burst in the game i think………………

- Conditions
True, we have good amount of cleansing with CI and we can negate them with BS. Maybe you could bait out BS and after that bomb the warrior. Signet of Stamina is a good condition clear but it has longish CD as well (45s) so you can bait that out as well and you see it in warriors toolbar if he/she has it.

Highest HP, good condi cleanse, very nice healing… unless you consider something “that can kill you” as an weakness… then sure. compared to the other classes? no, definitely not

- Boons
While some warrior builds do more damage the more boons you have we have no reliable way to strip you from them so you don’t have to worry about that.

not really a weakness this… its like saying warriors do not have clones so you dun have to worry about them when fighting them! few classes have this ability…….

Warriors have weaknesses yes, but not THAT many, and definitely not ^ those.

unlucky.9285:

lots of stuff

make a video… then we can point things out for you, what you might do better and what to watch for when fighting a thief. it’s very hard to do so when all you’re pretty much describing can be summed up with “every attack i do is blinded, evaded, or negated through stealth then i died.”

messiah.1908:

i dont know why you say its broken. your 18k burst is maybe in 6 seconds so 3k dps which is like power d/d which can cnd+bs+AA every 4 seconds
engi who put too many conditions is broken also ?
diamond d/d ele which can heal fast is broken also?
s/s lb warrior broken also?

so about the same dps as a d/d thief… while the d/d thief has lower armor, lower hp, less dodges, less gap openers, and has to stay in melee range to actually do the damage you are comparing the condi burst to :P

Cygnus.6903:

Emi.4152:

hmm… for the warrior i would say the greatest weakness is the obvious animations.

This and the long cast times for the important-to-hit-attacks.

Oh, and we are easily kited by anything with a few cripples and chills and a little +condition duration.

Only a few long cooldown utilities to soak all of the damage that warriors, as opposed to many other classes, are forced to eat.

now that i’m thinking about it… they also have very predictable combos… unreliable gap closers (insane gap openers though Oo weird).

lunyboy.8672:

Which are largely neutralized by rolling Asura.

true xP although to be fair, warriors tend to roll giant norn characters Oo no clue why hehehehe!

hmm… for the warrior i would say the greatest weakness is the obvious animations.

i agree with quinn agreeing with amonatory who agrees with baby hahahaha.

but when you win against a p/d thief as a d/d power… you can’t help but to get up and do a little dance!

hmmm… d/d will usually be at an disadvantage against p/d but! if you can get the p/d thief to follow you to an area with very limited room for kiting (e.g. between cliffs, on top of the little walls in areas like EB keeps, BL south east camp), power d/d can overpower p/d very very quickly (even in full dire gear they will be squishyyyy)

Plus d/d is more fun :P

Peow peow.2189:

Emi.4152:

waow Oo

1. negate the entire purpose of stealth by adding footfalls. (don’t get the point, it would take God’s most holy decree to land a backstab, you realize that right? you probably do… oh…)

2. nerf weapon evade killing the last viable thief weaponset in pvp…

3. nerf damage by half…

4. nerf the already nerfed vigor resulting in even less survivablity and buff swiftness “because we need it more”

5. give thieves more traps.

okay… so basically, make sure thieves do not have burst, nor sustain, nor survivablity in the name of “raising the skill cap”. in return thieves should be massively buffed with a new trap skill.

I agree with this and hope they implement just so people like… this… would stop posting. and i will still kill you with my mines

(2 months later) nerf mines!!! blehhh!!!!!!?!?!

Great post, I will add you to the supporters list.

hehehe! nicely played :P

Poplolita.2638:

Assumptions aside, are you aware I main a necromancer? How could you possibly think I’m having trouble against your class? What do you even know about my experience?

okay… Oo

“I have no problems with the entire class but nerf it because there are no mechanical counters for it”…

There are no mechanical counters for death shroud, can i have a utility to just end it for you when you press F1? oh? that would be OP? sorry!

There are also no mechanical counters for… ranger pets, mesmer clones, ele summons, traps, invulnerability, blocking skills, and who knows what else.

What is your argument exactly? I’m having a hard time finding it.

If you think stealth is OP then say so but this quest for moral higher ground is getting tiring.

Aza.2105:

This is also related to why zerker thieves have run out mesmers and elementlists in pvp. No other zerker can compete since they do not have the wide quantity of stealth skills to remove their opponents ability to make concrete counter play decisions.

Definitely broken, but of course you will have people come here and defend it viciously without a ounce of reasoning why it should stay the way it is other than their are in love with their class.

People who defend the class are biased, people who attack it are not. You understand that in itself is a bias? x.x

1. zerker thieves have not run mesmer and eles out of pvp. that is an exaggeration (bias? x.x). the zerker thief has made it much harder for zerker mesmers and eles to be viable in pvp, fine.

2. the zerker thieves in pvp do not spam stealth nor trait for it… because stealth is not viable in pvp… no team support, cannot cap or decap, and is honestly a substandard 1v1 build.

3. stealth builds are not viable in dungeons or fractals either… you would do much better with a non stealth thief in pve than a SA thief. Putting down shadow refuge once in a while does not a stealth build make x.×...

so where is the problem? wvw… where in wvw? 1vX to 5vX (AKA roaming).

so its fine as long as we press 2 buttons to do it right…? it would a be shame if i had to stop bouncing my characters around!

waow Oo

1. negate the entire purpose of stealth by adding footfalls. (don’t get the point, it would take God’s most holy decree to land a backstab, you realize that right? you probably do… oh…)

2. nerf weapon evade killing the last viable thief weaponset in pvp…

3. nerf damage by half…

4. nerf the already nerfed vigor resulting in even less survivablity and buff swiftness “because we need it more”

5. give thieves more traps.

okay… so basically, make sure thieves do not have burst, nor sustain, nor survivablity in the name of “raising the skill cap”. in return thieves should be massively buffed with a new trap skill.

I agree with this and hope they implement just so people like… this… would stop posting. and i will still kill you with my mines

(2 months later) nerf mines!!! blehhh!!!!!!?!?!

the entire premise of all the complaints is basically “we want to negate stealth/evades/blinds and force the thief to play on an even playing field (AKA head to head)”.

what people need to understand is that the class cannot go “head to head” with anything. a full PVT thief is still one of the squishiest targets you can find. Take away stealth/evades/blinds what you get is a warrior with no stuns or sustain, with an ele without cantrips’ survivablity.

YES fighting against stealth is annoying and YES it takes alot of practice. But counterplay is possible on every class (maybe not every weaponset). Introduce direct counters on a button press will turn the thief into a… squishy melee single target focused class… with… low to medium damage…. okay… Oo… that sounds… fair… why not…

I’m tired of the “i often lose to evade spam in pvp so lets nerf stealth” and “the dictionary meaning of this word is different from what you mean therefore stealth is broken” arguments. can we begin to be constructive instead of just flaming like idiots?

Your having trouble fighting against stealth builds fine. How you do see the thief class playing instead to be competitive and to make it fun for both sides? should the class be chaining ccs to get their kills? boon stripping viable for all weaponsets? some kind of utility role that can be used in z v z? or even (something that i want quite badly :P) the ability to effectively pick off backline players in z v z!

i’m just going to leave a simple suggestion here.

I will not say L2P, rather perhaps, i would like the people who have created ‘solutions’ for stealth to try them out, which i would like to refer to as ‘LFD’ (Learn From Dying)

Create a thief and lvl to 80! go into wvw and play using the solutions/restrictions to stealth that you yourself has recommended.

e.g. play a d/p thief without ever going into stealth by using black powder and heart seeker (BP should be changed to dark field), attempt backstab/whatever stealth skill only once per stealth and stop attacking if you miss or get blocked, if you feel that thieves should not move as fast as they do in stealth, tap your movement keys while in stealth instead of holding them, if you feel that thieves only gear glassy because they want to, go full pvt and do whatever you like, if you think that stealth inherently is the best damage avoidance mechanic in the whole game, play whatever stealth weaponset you like with whatever utilities but do not invest in the SA traitline at all.

good luck :>

Poplolita.2638:

Necro’d like a true necromancer. I feel this thread is still relevant, and should be kept alive.

I’m sorry to say that i read through this whole 5 month old thread because you felt it was important enough to push back up to the front page…

It’s full of toxic, inconsistent, and sometimes has completely untrue things (from both sides of the argument).

that’s.. rather.. sad… i have nothing left to say to you i guess, good luck with whatever agenda you seem to be pushing.

yay! nerf all the things!

1. i use my burst skills when i’m blinded. it should be more rewarding!
2. i spam all my skills at an evade spam thief and it doesn’t work. it should be more rewarding!
3. i throw my aoes out randomly at a stealth target so they do not do enough damage when they accidentally hit. it should be more rewarding!
4. i waste my dodges and blocks on situations where i know they will not help. it should be more rewarding!
5. i can’t beat people unless they make a mistake when i’m obviously making many. it should be more rewarding!

i… you… okay…

ShakeyStorm.7180:

1. On weapon hit, avatar blurs before going back into stealth.
2. On weapon hit, damage appears where avatar in stealth was hit.
3. Hit points reset timer will not start while in stealth.

No trolling please. Just serious comments.

1. many auto attack weapon skills already do that. instead of the thief blurring, your skill combo tells you exactly when you whack the thief Oo how long do you want this blur to last?
2. kinda overlaps with the first one…
3. sure why not. i don’t actually remember being able to run all the way to reset before my stealth ends anyways Oo

HS – sounds a little OP :O especially if you have power d/p thieves use it they would be unkillable :P

DB – dun think the evade needs to be increased… just moved to the beginning of the skill!

DD – would be nice if you are able to even get it to land on someone :P

BS – maybe make it a trait? sounds too strong for power users. Very rewarding for ‘failed’ backstabs

Poplolita.2638:

I would like to point out I have no problem against thieves, and that I rarely lose against them whenever I face them 1v1 in tpvp, they don’t even use stealth that much (talking about s/d thief). Also, getting outplayed has nothing to do with counters. I’m talking about counter from a mechanical perspective.

i understand what you mean by the fact that stealth doesn’t have hard counters (although there are… just not many or user friendly) but my question is why. why does stealth need additional hard mechanical counters?

Thieves have inherently weaker damage, stats, skill usage and hp wise than most of the other classes. they need to counter play other classes by using stealth, evades, blinds, or a combination in order to gain an advantage. Other classes then need to counter play the thief’s counter play by means of positioning, smart use of skills, knowledge of the weaknesses of these mechanics. The thief then needs to start to play unpredictably in order to make it harder for other classes to counter them, usually by means of going heavily into utilities (which does not last) and try to win before these run out.

So in the case of stealth… from what i understand from what you are saying, you’re wanting to change this process to…
1. thief is inherently weaker, uses stealth to gain an advantage
2. Opponent uses mechanical counter
3. Story ends thief dies
4. ?

Have you ever been hit by a stealth detector trap or the AC 4 skill on a SA thief? The moment that happens and if anyone at all is around, you basically have to burn all of your utilities and initiative to even have a remote chance of surviving (wvw of course). If players had the ability to just slap something like that onto their utility bar (which the ranger already has… although thankfully very unreliable), i would just retire my thief and play my ele (which is already better than my thief in most areas of the game).

Poplolita.2638:

Not counters.

not hard counters but counter plays… counter plays that work exceptionally well against various stealth builds. adding into the game hard counters for stealth seems a little overkill to me.

I could sit here and describe the ways i’ve personally been countered by players on all the different classes, how they played, what they did, what to look out for, etc. or how i handle stealth builds on my other classes… but i’m not going to. judging by the previous posts…. that seems like a waste of time.

Instead, let me ask all the people here that seem to think stealth is OP. What exactly are you looking for when fighting a stealth based player ideally. A head to head fight with someone that has lower HP, little armor, lower damage co-efficients on attacks, and can use much less quantity of skills on average? Or just something in the middle to make it “fair” for you while at the same time allowing players that already know how to counterplay stealth builds to completely faceroll them instead?

why doesn’t anyone complain about d/d thieves! i feel left out T^T

Paavotar.3971:

In my opinion it’s kinda stupid that as a warrior I have to learn to cancel out my own actions with a button that isn’t ment for it and is not really promoted in the game itself and afaik no other profession has to cancel own actions to be effective in higher skill levels. I like the skill canceling, but it’s not really ment to be there so it shouldn’t be counted into balancing stuff out.

my d/d thief disagrees with you :> rather, the only d/d thieves that are viable in wvw are the ones able to fake cloak and dagger to bait out dodges, at the same time, we aren’t viable in s/tpvp in any way shape or form. just be happy with what you have!

i mostly wvw so this will be a wvw list! :>

a)
1. Guardian (support, more support, and support! all the other classes really just revolve around the guard… central to any group from small scale to zerg v zerg)
2. Warrior (the best class for melee cc, 1st or 2nd in regards to mobility, high potential burst, highest hp/highest armor, also provides essential support (banners yay!) although warriors cannot have it all in a single build, they can be high performing in a variety of areas at the same time if built correctly.
3. Elementalist (high ranged dps, cc spamming left and right, boons for everyone!, essential water fields)
4. Necromancer (high ranged dps, devastating condi builds in small scale, AOE boon stripping [give me all your stabs!!], AOE blinding and overall omnomnoming people)
5. Mesmer (portal bombing! stealth for the whole zerg! pulling people off of walls! very nice roaming builds but weak at aoe dpsness)
6. Engineer / Thief (Think they are pretty much even in wvw. both are not very good in large groups although the thief can be more useful taking out the squishies in the back, roaming wise, thief has much higher mobility but many engin builds have better sustained condiness which is very very strong atm)
7. Ranger (… sorry! there are a few very strong builds, they can be very good in small scale but feels like they lack the utilities or have too many bugs to be consistently good)

b) really depends on the build but i think overall…
1. Mesmer (slow and squishy… positioning of skills, be at the right place at the right time, sounds like a headache :P asides from condi tank builds at least…)
2. Thief (survivability is completely dependent on the player, dps is also completely dependent on the player [using the right skills at the right time, ini management]. it’s very easy to get a lucky burst off sometimes when things go your way, very hard to do consistently. a lsides from condi tanks builds ateast… :P!)
3. Elementalist (using the wrong skill at the wrong time is virtually useless. Survivability is also dependent completely on the player.)
4. Necro (positioning positioning positioning! :P)
5. Guardians (they do what they do well but it’s not very hard to do.. :P even the burst builds seems very combo based)
6. Warrior (stun then burst… short cooldowns overall, high armor, health, mobility and personal healing… lets people get away with alot of mistakes and then some)

(dun know enough about playing engins and rangers… :x)

c)
1. Warrior (very high performing in all areas… can roam with the best of them, can blob like a champ [not at the same time obviously :P]. literally the best in many areas, at least the 2nd best in the rest. just the fact that the very first thing you need to learn to be at all useful in wvw is the warrior animations regardless of your own class… if you dun know how to react to them… :x)
2. Guardian (the class scales much too well. the more of them you have… well… you always want more guardians x.x)
3. Condi Engins, Mesmers, Necros, Warriors and Thieves (They simply out compete anything else in roaming and small scale. they would also out compete everything else in zerging if not for the fact that almost everyone builds to be as anti condi as possible to even play… aka aoe cleansing)
4. Thieves (stealth and evade spamming – very hard to fight unless you know how to exploit the weaknesses in order to win. But if you do… very easy to fight. not sure what can be done about that x.x)

but… but…. but… breaks down and cries

add a 0.1 second daze on the first hit & move the evade frame to the beginning of the skill! leave the bleeds as is~ everyone is happy

edit – i think that might make more sense with the animation… people usually go wahhh!! if someone does a super ninja spin flip with sharp things flying around… i bet it’s hard to concentrate and cast a spell like that! :P

babazhook.6805:

On Siege. I was pointing out why a person would want to use Rampager in a hyrbid build. The person asked another why another would use rampager. I stated quite clearly that condition damage specs are weak against siege which can be mitigated somewhat using a hybrid build which rampager allows.

That kinda makes sense… just thinking that it’s still pretty hard to take down siege even with my zerker thief if anyones defending. siege has lots of HP, especially sup ones.

If one is a condition build, PW is pointless. You don’t see how DB is viable there but PW is? The AOE of db hits in 360 degrees. The cleave portion of PW does not.

i think he was comparing condi d/d with power s/p. i think ninja’s argument is that; if you want to take out lots of monsters in a very short time frame, power s/p will faster with the same advantages.

There no way on earth Ricochet can compare to DB when inflicting bleeds. There no way on earth a Shortbow can lay down bleeds as effectively as death blossom.

no doubt. however, ricochet and constant sneak attacking comes pretty close.

Added to that you , much like the original poster , are unable to understand that using a d/d set does not preclude P/d in a set.

DB is NOT useless. It is the single best source of bleed damage in the game for a condition specced thief. That the bleed from P/d has no INI cost is its real advantage (along with range) but this akin to claiming CnD and backstab “useless” because autoattacks on the d/d set are free.

i don’t think anyone is arguing that p/d autoattack is better than db…. when bleed stacking, please also take into consideration that p/d has sneak attack > < and thats mainly what people would use to stack the bleeds

As I stated in my original posts on this issue all is needed is a boost to the evade frame.

or add a short daze! and move the evade frames to the beginning of the skill!! and maybe lower the ini costs a little…. (drools)

edit still think condi is inherently under powered in pve… and condi d/d is only viable in certain limited situations even in pve… i’m not sure why you think thats fine Oo

Einlanzer.1627:

Moreover, the 1-button spam you’re complaining about actually applies more accurately to another Thief set which is obviously designed to work that way – P/P. I’ve always argued that design is stupid as well, but it’s more egregious on P/P than it is on D/D. You probably aren’t complaining about it because it’s power based.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the autoattack lands numerous blows very quickly, meaning that with a condi build you can sigil it for bleed application and it’ll do a well above average job. That’s the main reason I’m kind of a fan of Rampager stats. Note that I am not saying that it beats or even matches a full Berserker setup in raw DPS, nor have I ever argued that. What I am arguing is that it’s still very solid DPS-wise while being much more versatile AND quite fun to play, especially in PvE where condition cleansing is minimal and opponents have varying levels of toughness.

DB is not useless, period, and I don’t want to see it change in any fundamental way. The only thing it may arguably need is a longer evade frame.

changing to rampager on condi d/d just means you have lower dps and lower def than a p/d thief xP

where in pve is condi d/d good? trash monsters die before you can even hit it a couple of times. in fractals… please dont x.×.... in dungeons… melee condi… please dont x.×.... group events… your condis hit the cap instantly… world bosses… same thing…

so basically the only place condi d/d is usable is… solo map clearing…………… or very small scale events….

btw, p/p thief is also not viable. we’re not talking about it because well… the post was about.. death blossom :x….

Death Blossom is not fine. period <- people like to use this alot what does it even mean? i’m right you’re wrong so hush?

edit rather the entire d/d set is not fine, both power and condi.

please dun compare condi p/d to condi d/d….

condi p/d is a little OP atm… while condi d/d is… very UP…

the only things condi d/d does better is… the little amount of AOE DB has… and a hard to use evasion…

p/d has…;
1. higher DPS
2. at range…
3. with more types of condi…
4. much harder to predict…
5. the same amount of mobility in combat (p/d is better at opening gaps while d/d is better at closing them)
6. less ini hungry
7. IMO better survivaliblity (range > melee; gap opening > gap closing)

on the other hand! if you compare condi d/d with condi SB…

SB…;
1. has the same amount of mobility (and easier to use)
2. is ranged…
3. is not as good at applying bleeds (the closer you are to the target, the less of an gap this becomes)
4. better at applying poison (ranged AOE instead of single target on the 3rd hit…)
5. has a more reliable evade skill
6. has a more reliable cripple…

i would argue that condi d/d is worse off than condi SB, let alone p/d!

yet… yes i would agree that DB works fine as a condi skill… thats not the problem! The reason it’s not viable is not due to DB, it’s not viable because it doesn’t have any other viable skills on the weaponset! (for condi)

babazhook.6805:

Oh there more then one. The skill floor is higher in a d/d build which is why you do not see as many. P/d is much easier.

There are still a lot of power build d/d users. LOTS. Nothing was changed on DB so how can you link the nerf to ferocity with whether DB useful in a ppower build. They are not related.

There are still a lot of power build d/d users because regardless of it’s problems, it’s still the go to set for instant up front damage.

The reason i’m linking the nerf to ferocity with DB because;
1. due to this nerf, fights are now inherently longer.
2. the effectiveness of power d/d goes down significantly the longer the fight goes on due to it’s predictable nature compared to other thief weaponsets. having only… 2 viable skills. (cnd & hs). dancing dagger is very unreliable and DB is well… :x
3. theres a glaringly empty spot in the middle of the d/d skillbar that could potentially be changed to a skill that adds SOME sort of utility worth using that could help a d/d thief be more unpredictable/better adapt to the current environment.

Don’t get me wrong, they should change the set to be condi or power focused. Having a build that relies on only 2 skills is silly… just as silly as a build that relies on only 1 skill :P

babazhook.6805:

So what. The D/d set has one skill not favoring power> There a plethora of choices available that favor power in battle. Why add more and take away one of the only three sources of bleeds we have just because YOU want your PvP build optimized for YOUR purposes?

I think your argument makes more sense in reverse… i think it is safe to say that d/d power users greatlyyyy outnumber d/d condi users. (TBH i’ve only ever met 1 d/d condi user in game…) Making your “us” vs. “YOU” standpoint kinda… well… weird Oo

Condi fundamentally is not ideal for most parts of the game, which i think is a design flaw… (bleed caps, overlapping condis, lower dps… etc) Thieves are also not the ideal condi users either, only in a very specific niche do they stand out (wvw roaming). Furthermore, DB on the D/D set is lackluster even in the very specific area condi thieves are good at…

On the flip side, power D/D thieves have suffered alot due to the recent patch changes (AKA. nerf all the things!) like ferocity. The set has not been optimal in a long time and these changes made it even less viable.

One of the most glaring issues with D/D is how high the skill floor is to be able to even play it against other players while at the same time is absurdly predictable in the way you have to play in order to dish out any damage at all.

Having a useless ‘3’ skill (for a power D/D thief) really isn’t acceptable in this situation : / while having only 1 skill on an entire weapon set that you can use isn’t acceptable either (for a condi D/D thief). However, you cannot change the 1 & 2 skills as it would greatly impact d/p thieves which cannot condi at all… and you cannot change the 5 skill either as multiple weapon sets depend on it to work…. so… yesh… logically speaking… please change DB!

Emi

@OP

Agree that condi is weak for some parts of the game. However, they are very very strong in other parts (like small scale WvW and PvP). If even one of the ideas in the OP post gets implemented, it would completely push all builds that are not condi out of the meta for those areas (which is already happening… especially in small scale WvW).

In short… your ideas make condi builds overwhelmingly strong in the areas where they are currently strong and does not help in the slightest in areas where they are lacking (PVE).

Aleglast.6027:

For example, you said, “your solution strikes me as a poor one”, this is derogatory, you could have said, your solution does not seem viable, your solution in my opinion would never work, your solution presents problems, your solution, im afraid, could never work (reasons why it wouldnt).

“your solution strikes me as a poor one” sounds to me like hes saying that your ideas are a bad fit for the current problem…

on the other hand, “your solution in my opinion would never work” sounds like someone politely saying “I think you’re dumb” :x there are cultural implications to how people phrase things and we are a pretty international community… maybe you’re reading too deeply into what people are saying?

with that said, your solution strikes me as a poor one :P

Emi

Kukchi.6173:

Seeing how you play mostly thief and very little of the other classes your opinion is very biased and unwelcome. That is all based on your comments. You can spam PW a lot more than 2 to 3 times. Specially if you are traited into initiative recovery and use the rollback utility. You seem to forget also that stealthing resets a fight in favor of thieves. Especially if the opponent has used their cooldowns. Thieves need a rework with their ability to spam.

kettle… black… etc > <!!

PW thieves… dun really stealth… or have high mobility, not if they want to… PW :>

You can blind spam, but will lose out in dps (not to mention, the way thieves blind you is to basically take their initiative and shove them into your eye :>). you have a set up where you can spam skills, but you won’t have those nifty stealth reset goodness, you can be ultra mobile and evasive but you lose alot of dps and ‘spamability’ etc etc etc

mmmmm… i’m not sure what this build brings to a organized guild group that an ele doesn’t do already. If you want to give out stuns, chills, or immobs, other classes do it much better. The only unique things this build brings would be… higher survivability compared to maybe… an ele (maybe not even that), and giving life leach to 5 people… at the same time having less offensive support, aoe healing, and aoe dps.

instead of comparing to power thieves, which are notoriously horrible in a zerg… would you have been more useful as an ele, guard, warrior or necro? i think the answer is yes… but since this is the thief forums, would you have been more useful as a power thief… maybe? :O

I would argue that a power thief in a coordinated gank group would be more useful than adding more cc to the cc ccing ccness that is wvw group fighting :P

sometimes i press ‘3’ accidentally and i watch my thief do the silly flip. It actually hurts a little inside when that happens, in my mind it looks like my thief is spinning and literally throwing initiative at people xP if you use death blossom on a guardian symbol, you can actually see the initiative flying away never to return!

if you’re desperate, you could convert your 300k karma into gold. just google something like “gw2 karma to gold”, there are a number of ways to do so :O. should get you… like 24g plus your 15g = 39g… that should be enough to buy a full set of exotic stuffs! use up all your badges at the wvw vendors for weapons… then… wvw alot! and… wvw some more! eventually you’ll get enough moneys to buy the more expensive things you might want ^^

edit keep in mind that if you want to make a legendary weapon… you’ll need about 1,000,000 karma

you can also farm dungeons for the type of equipment you want, check the dungeon venders in lion’s arch to see who sells what!

If you’re not too fussed about being a little weak for the time being, you could just continue wvwing with your current equipment! doesn’t really matter if you’re in a zerg… wvw give okayish money in loots & rank up chests!

higher coefficient for duel wielding daggers too then? :P it’s only fair! sob

coconut pancake flavored jelly

I hope this was a troll post… i really do!

Murtygale.2635:

I think we need more mechanics added to stealth.
Firstly, theif is the only class in game with a unique stealth mechanic… and mesmers, and engis… and rangers… why not give everyone else one stealth mechanic. Then again, theif is the only class that gives you large crits, and +500 power hits, and regen, etc, when in stealth, sounds fair enough to me. other classes get those same things from NOT being in stealth :>
Secondly, I’ve had great 1v2s, where I could very well outskill both opponents, however two theifs isn’t a balanced 1v2 even, it takes two backstabs and 3 sec double heartseeks and you’re gone. There’s literally no way to actively counter a 1v2, both theifs. It supports class stacking WAY to much. balancing for 1v1 is silly… balancing for 1v2 is… wow. I’ve never seen more than 3 thieves together in wvw… guards, warrs, etc on the other hand…
I suggest creating a status called ‘Alertness’ or ‘Awareness’ so that when attacked by a stealthed character, any other attacks recieved by a stealthed character in 10s will be glancing blows, BOOM no more thief stacking encouragements. BOOM no more dagger thief burst
What else, yes thirdly, stealth is both a defensive mechanic and an offensive mechanic for theifs. Don’t give your theifs ANY toughness, ANY healing, ANY vitality, ANY boons such as regen, vigor, or protection, you can replace all of that with a click of a button. You should not encourage a class which has the strongest capabilites to survive, to roll ONLY DPS. have you ever been hit by a full pvt thief? hehehehehehehe

One way to learn this anet… look through every lvl 80 theif build, and look at the percentage of thiefs that play a defensive/survival/support role… you will get <10%. BALANCE ANET by all means, give thieves VIABLE support builds!
“Balance is not where every class is exactly the same, its where not everyone is playing the same thing, or the exact same build.”
Well, I’d say you are not doing a great job with thief… about 90% balance to go.

no deal for thief! you’re effectively telling all D/D thieves that they will now only be able to auto-attack in combat and nothing else > . >

Hey baby!

After dueling with you last week stephie figured out your trick haha (the S/P thief that dueled you before me). Thats just way too cute, you’ve just made quaggans a viable fighting force in WvW (all of us from the Quaggan Patrols thank you!)

btw, do you have like… 3 hands? O_o you were dueling with someone, using this trick, AND chatting with people at the same time… 3 hands playing exploit! OP! Nerf! xP

Emi Smacks
TC

Smekla.8923:

+ 3 conditions from heal stealth; + 3 conditions from shadowstep

Kyon only mentioned the SA trait for the purposes of his argument so i felt no need to elaborate. Of course thieves have other sources of cleansing, as a matter of fact i run most of them when i roam. But it’s still easy to get overwhelmed.

Black Teagan.9215:

1 condition, when you enter stealth + 1 condition every 3 secs, while in stealth.

The description is wrong.

I stand corrected :O

Emi

maybe the person he was fighting was so good that they used that runeset just to give other people a handicap!

Thief dagger autoattack chain has poison already :x can’t imagine a reason why someone would use that trait on a backstab thief x3

Oakwind.6187:

Here’s a question: Why do they offer Berserker – or indeed collectively “glass” – amulets to everyone if it’s so written in stone that Thieves “deserve” to roll face over other glass players?

I think thieves have an advantage in glass vs glass duels but it’s hardly a face roll no?

Re: your other posts – I see alot of valid points that you bring up. Stealth does feel too overdone, especially in WvW. What do you think could be changed to alter the situation without killing the weaker thief builds? (e.g. d/d, p/p, power p/d)

Bowflex.4502:

d.
Quick question, how do you think thieves feel about other thieves hitting them that hard? Considering our lower health pool? We aren’t immune to it either.

My question too :x

Kyon.9735:

Thief is not a top class in high tier PvP? Please watch more “professional matches” and see the answer for yourself whether they’re top dogs or not

Do they use stealth or backstab builds? i thought that was the topic under discussion… :x

If you’re a thief and you’re having problems fighting against a skull crack warrior, you really should review your own playstyle.

Why can’t thieves have trouble with a stun lock warrior? that’s a very decent and effective warrior build…

How to counter a condi classes? Use the Shadow Arts traits

The shadow arts trait clears 1 condition every 10 seconds… which is often not enough vs. condi spam builds.

Now let’s get back to topic about Backstab Damage

Yes, let’s. :> I don’t think backstab damage is too high, if we’re talking about perma/stealth spam then maybe…

Fortus.6175:

All the stuff

Why do you only thank people who posts something similar to your opinions and actively attack people who do not share your opinions (going as far as to insult all thief players…)? I went through the trend again and this seems to be the case… I’m sorry you feel that way :x

Emi

NinjaBreadMan.8926:

ALL thieves counter eles. Telling me to auto attack spam and heal up is pointless. Also lf+eq is countered by 1 stunbreaker or evade. I dont think you play this class much.

D/D ele’s AOE autoattack (0.5 second cast) has 360 range… thief needs to, not only get behind you but also within 130 range to backstab (0.5 second cast)… you will hit the thief multiple times if they try to come in for a backstab. i’m not telling you to spam autoattack, i’m telling you to apply pressure and punish them for trying to get into 130 range… and that is one of the ways you can consider…

“Also lf+eq is countered by 1 stunbreaker or evade.” you have multiple stuns on multiple cooldowns while a thief will only bring 1 or 2 stunbreakers (on 50 or 40 second cooldowns). Most thieves only bring 1. Water 3 & 4, although not stuns, basically make it impossible for a thief to backstab you or followup with attacks for the duration of those skills.

The amount of time i play my ele is irrelevant to what i’m saying. (although I do play my ele alot because its crazy fun!) D/D eles are harder to fight on my thief than most other classes. Thieves are easier to handle on my D/D ele than most other classes.

Emi