Guild Wars 2

Morfedel.4165:

Possibly. I was the recipient of the damage, and didn’t have access to the build; it did seem to be something like that.

So how is the meta thief superior to someone hitting for 16k-21k in one hit?

Thief here!

Personally, I like using marauders DA CS Trick DP thief but even with that i tend to max out with a 11k BS so…

A meta thief is superior to one that hits 16~21k in the following ways (please keep in mind that im guessing at the 16~21k build x3);

1. Using berserkers instead of marauders
2. Probably using some form of the signet might build. More extreme versions of this does not have shadow step… or shadow refuge… or even withdraw (uses signet heal) and has 1 stun break that they probably use to feed their burst anyways (ini signet).
3. Instead of SA they probably use CS (so a DA CS Trick build) so no healing in stealth, no condi clear at all

so to get a 21k backstab, the thief will basically… have no heal, 0 stunbreaks, 0 condi clears, no stealth bonuses, no utilities (all fed into getting might), and will have just enough ini after the 21k burst to do bp → hs 1 more time before becoming useless and probably dead :P

The meta build will burst less but more often, won’t die nearly as easily, has much more utility and can act like a res bot if needed.

also think this > < everything was very neat until the dashhhhhhhhh.

it might be that the other 2 animations were just much much kewler?

Daishi.6027:

Requiring stealth is not much of a requirement for thief. Even the initiative spent from black powder and HS is made back fairly rapidly. At the very least enough to push the offensive and still have enough ini regen where if you wiff you can escape.

Thieves are the class that can least afford to spam skills. Both weaponsets are tied into a single resource pool. On average, thieves use less weapon skills (besides auto attack) than any other class. They can’t just jump in and spam skills offensively… and then spam skills again to get out again. Let’s say a thief jumps in ini signet → BP → HS → BS (9 ini) then autos a while… has to shadow shot to someone (4 ini), interrupts using headshot a heal or something (4 ini). That’s 17 ini already, let’s say this takes place within 8 seconds… the thief has 6 ini left… so to get out again… a single shortbow 5 left? + shadowstep? hardly worth it unless the person was at 40~50% already.

Backstab works on the side as well as the back (dunno if bug?) at which point even warriors hit targets on the side on a regular basis. <- and being in stealth ONLY makes landing that easier. Ultimately I don’t think of this as set up.

In the game there is only front and back, no sides. front = 180 degrees, back = 180 degrees. Honestly speaking, I am not aware of a skill that requires as much set up as backstab. traps maybe…? Depends on how you define set up i guess… but if backstab doesn’t require set up… then no other skill does as well. Also, yes it’s quite easy to hit someone on the side or back on a warrior… or ele… or whatever. Quite a different story when people see a thief stealth and move accordingly. It’s one thing to be hit in the back by a warrior (it makes no difference) and another to let a thief do it. If you aren’t moving around to make it much harder, you’re doing it wrong.

As for escapes, simply anything that distances yourself from a target, or mitigates damage while using it as a means to disengage, which is a vast amount of the thieves repertoire. Technically not free, but once your ooc it might as well be.

Make a thief and try it. They do not have nearly as many escapes as you imagine. Also… OOCing doesn’t make ini come back any faster… nor does it affect our cooldowns… x.x

choovanski.5462:

thief can remove blind in stealth with shadows embrace. aegis is a problem sure, but shouldnt it be? currently the only thing you can do counter backstab is random dodge- and that’s a gamble. warriors earthshaker has many counters, not just blind and aegis- and it’s easy to dodge too (plus you can interrupt mid leap gosh).

i used earthshaker as it’s a skill that is integral to my play (and that of any hammer warrior), just as backstab is to the thief. considering how strong and essential these skills are to killing on these professions there needs to be a degree of counterplay opponents can employ. ‘dodge and pray’ is really not enough.

1. Sure shadow’s embrace can get rid of blind… only if thats the only condition on the thief. How likely is that in pvp btw?

2. Aegis would not be counterplay. It would be a complete shut down no? Personally i do not think being counterplayed by an afk guardian is… a good thing…

3. Most block skills last longer than stealth no…?

4. dodge and pray has never been ‘counterplay’ to stealth.

5. interrupting the thief from entering stealth when they BP → HS… thats counterplay… dodging cnd is counterplay… failing to interrupt BP → HS, opening up range while they’re leaping then moving in a way to make them front stab is counterplay… applying melee or AOE damage while you move in an intelligent manner punishing them for getting close is counterplay… listening for the number of times a thief leaps through BP then knowing when you have to counter by movement and AOE and when the last second of stealth will be so you can dodge is counterplay… stunning / bursting the thief when they reveal themselves is counterplay…

ZeftheWicked.3076:

@above
My beef is how thief as a profession, gets tons of get out of jail cards vs opponents who skillfully interrupt or ensnare them, as well as no punishment for their own bad performance when trying to land a stealthed attack.

Bad thieves that do not realize or cannot properly use that, do not “balance” the general problem with this profession. They just cover it up.

specific examples please. I also like how anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a ‘bad thief’.

Room for error is built into much of the game as no one can play perfectly. A comparable equivalent is ranged attacks like ranger’s LB. It actually shoots much further than the stated 1500 range doesn’t (it)? Wouldn’t it be nice if I could stop being hit the moment I reach 1501 range? the 2000+ actual range often isn’t possible to reach. One could argue that it wasn’t “fair”.

You haven’t answered my question… if you’re having no problems with thieves… then what are you talking about? balance? According to you, only 1 thief in recent memory could even stand a chance against you. The rest aren’t dying fast enough for your tastes? They should not be able to get away at all? Your “skillful play” should completely and utterly shut them down regardless of what they do?

*Edit: doesn’t (it) got censored… wow

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

you should not get a second chance at backstab if you screw it up. no other class gets that with burst skills. should I another earthshaker if my first one gets blinded?- oh wait we used to but it got nerfed.

it’s time to L2P and learn to connect hits the first time, not the third.

and also… you’re forgetting something. You can actually get rid of blind/aegis before you attempt to earthshaker. A thief in stealth cannot. There’s a difference between smart counterplay and complete shutdown isn’t there? Also… comparing bs to a AOE stun… from a set with 2 other AOE stuns… using a completely different profession mechanic…. okay….

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Nope did not get owned by a thief, sorry conspiracy theory thieves. Only thief to own me in recent days was a really really good sword/dagger one and even then after 3rd encouter he had some major hard time with my ranger. On to the subject:

Ok, a-net, you got some explaning to do.
A while ago you said yourself you want to move away from hard counter gameplay into soft counter style, so player skill has bigger say in result of pvp encounters then their build.

And for most part you’re keeping true to your word – quickness and berserker stance becoming boons which can be stripped or corrupted, elite specs filling gaps base professsions had etc.

….except thieves.

Shadowstepping. Stealth not removed when blocked or evaded, basilisk venom piercing stability, phletora of instant casts including a heal skill that breaks movement inpairment and has massive evade, initiative unaffected by chilling or interrupt induced skill cooldown.

So where exactly is the room for “skilled counter gameplay” against a thief who knows his stuff in pvp? Cause so far all i see is the “hold the point and survive for as long as possible”.

I dun get it… so… you have 0 trouble with thieves… but they should be nerfed…? ok…

also;
basi venom does not ignore stab,
“plethora of instant casts…” you mean our F1 and some utilities? Is this not the case with most professions?
“Stealth not removed when blocked or evaded” – and why should it? sure it’s not logical but fire raining down from the heavens isn’t logical ether… heavy armor people running faster then everyone isn’t logical… people not dying from being whacked in the head with a giant hammer isn’t logical… it’s a game Oo…

bleh, if you want to call for nerfs at least be honest about it. The “I can beat x profession all the time but (long list of nerfs) should be implemented” is getting old.

StickerHappy.8052:

Luthic.7290:

Theif Shouldnt just be revealed for failing an attack. Any action should really cancel thier stealth. So getting blocked or “miss” from blind or any aoe attack should all break thier stealth instead of just giving them the option to try again.

It is admitbaly infurating when the best option to counter play is to randomly swing at the air.

Also, a “fight reset” cannot possibly be part of intended design. If you run from a fight you should be giving up something such as a node or something. But having a fight that is enterly dictated by the thief is unfun. I am not agaisnt stealth, But I do think that the immense acces to it allows theifs to chose the pace of a fight. Even if they should lose a fight.. they can easily run away and heal up. So defeating a theif is not killing them.. Its either they give up and leave u alone to go somewhere else. or you get annoyed at not being able to secure the kill that you leave… and they follow you with ease.

That is why the meta is driven by builds that beat theifs to deal with this.

(this is not ment to be just an anti theif forum, mesmers also have thier issues with stealth) but the real issue is more stealth and its mechancis then theifs.

This is actually a good idea. Nevermind revealed. Just break stealth. Fair enough?

Let’s say that this was implemented. How (if you were a thief) would you go about ever landing a backstab?

Criteria for landing backstab would go from:
1. Must be in stealth
2. Must be behind target
3. Must be within 130 range

Into:
1. Must be in stealth
2. Must be behind target
3. Must be within 130 range
4. Must not be hit by any damage <- reallllyyyyyy? how exactly do you propose to achieve this miracle?
5. Must not be blind
6. Target must not be blocking
7. Target must not have aegis
8. Target must not be invulnerable
9. Target must not be dodging
10. Can only try once

Honestly speaking, my own successful backstab rate would go from 40%~50% to something closer to 5% (and only if i combo backstab → traited steal)

With such an unreliable burst, DP would be gone from the meta. There would be no question of that. All you would have left is SD/SB (which people want to nerf as well). Oh well, maybe SB/SB will become popular again?

It’s kinda funny how this multiple build(s) ending nerf is the most “reasonable” one i can find in this post… If you believe half the things said in this tread then ‘thieves have defined all metas since day 1’, is ‘completely OP’, can ‘spam skills non-stop’, and can ‘spam all they want and disengage at will’.

I think the truth is closer to:
meta thieves are average at 1 v 1, near the bottom in teamfights, and are truly only still in the meta because of their mobility. If another class could move as well as thieves (whether by nerfing thief moblity or buffing mobility for another class), thieves would be out of the meta instantly. Burst is decent, DPS over time is underwhelming, on point survivability is non-existent. Can not fight outnumbered and should not fight even numbers.

IGN: Emi Smacks
Playstyle: WvW/sPvP
Server: Yak’s Bend
Experience with thief:
mmm… been in T1/2/3 on various servers. Usually solo roaming or running around with my guild group. Lots of gvging.

I started off as a condi PD teef (ewwwww! but to be fair it was pre-perplex!!) for about… 3 monthsish? 15 months as a DD power teef, lots of roaming / guild group running / gvgs. SD for a few months but that set makes me dizzy… then sPVP (mostly on the chinese server > <) with DP for about… 5 monthsish?

Now im back on NA T2 running around whacking people.

happy to duel! happy to teach! happy to learn! : )

it seems like people are afraid of admitting they have problems dealing with pew pew rangers as a thief because of the backlash of forum people yelling “NOOBIEE” “LTP” etc. etc…

well here it goes! I am an experienced wvw thief and i have lots of problems dealing with pew pew rangers. :> Just a couple of attentive pew pew rangers is enough to completely shut me down and stop me from doing anything productive. (in a zerg or 10ish v 10ish)

Issue 1: instant high dmg at extreme range
Generally I feel a thief’s job (z v z or small group) is to jump into the back line and stop people from free casting. Blind them, whack them, distract them. If i manage to down someone, it’s like a 3 second CC for 6 people :P. This is next to impossible to do now. If a ranger or 2, standing almost anywhere in the zerg sees me, they can instantly engage and push me off. For me to even survive being “pushed off”, I would have to eat through much of my resources, effectively becoming useless until cooldowns come back.

Issue 2: Much higher range, higher range dps, equal melee dps, invulnerability, and stronger ccs.
I’m not saying thieves do not have their own strengths but generally speaking… A thief will have to significantly outplay a ranger in order to win. Forget about RF… just the AA from LB is, frankly speaking, amazing pressure. Seeing signet of stone activated after spending so much of my resources to even get close is… silly. .

Issue 3: Rangers are making the pirate ship meta more effective than it should.
Pew pewing each other from range until one side is weak enough to be charged makes.. alot of sense. It’s not exactly fun though… CMDers are afraid of being sniped down and won’t charge, thieves and mesmers cannot effectively gank, and squishy eles and necros should stay only at their extreme range… This isn’t all because of pew pew rangers but they sure play a big part.

So now I feel like i’m being forced to stay with the zerg, sb 222444222. Until I see someone below 40% hp, jump on them with my daggers and hopefully down them, and instantly jump right out again or else be focused, watch the downed person get ranged down or ressed… repeat repeat repeat. No thought necessary, no risk allowed… until i get told by guildies to switch to necro… oh dear please let this meta end!!!!

thats crazy… if it’s being reported week after week over and over… and there’s nothing being done about it then… there’s either some sort of logic behind it that seemingly none of the players can even guess at or… mere incompetence?

Hey peoples. Although i mainly play on the Chinese server these days, i wanted to post this here since… there’s absolutely no point in posting feedback on the Chinese forums x.x

Situation is this… as a soloq player i’ve long come to terms with the fact that my evenings playing in pvp will be punctuated with frustrating matches with a few good ones in between.

My main concerns are;
1. Pre-made vs. soloq – This is… this is silly, really. Voice chat advantages aside, the very fact that you can choose your team members and class mix already gives an unfair advantage. Add on top of that the coordination the team will develop after playing a couple of days together, a level of coordination lower than voice chat teams probably, but still a level of coordination rarely seen or achieved by solo players. What is the point of putting players into, what amounts to, a rigged game?

2. Class dailies – This must have made sense to someone at some point… otherwise it wouldn’t be in the game… right…? but… matches filled with 5~6 of the same professions… played by players that do not really know how to play that profession… it’s painful to watch and frustrating to play with.

3. Soloq vs Soloq matchmaking (highish MMR) – I cannot and have never been able to carry 3~4 noobie team mates. But every once in a while, the match making system seems to say to me… “I think you can…! You can do it!” no, no i cannot. Regardless of which side i am to the ‘handicapped team’, it’s not fun. Winning because our team’s turret engi keeps eating the same 3 suicidal enemy players while the other 2 players that actually know how to play gets 4v2 ed… no one is happy or having fun, everyone loses.

These issues (and various other smaller things) in isolation I can accept. I’ll work past it and try to have my bit of fun after work. All at the same time is… which brings me to the straw the broke the camel’s back.

Match 1 ranked: 2+1+1+1 vs 4+1 – 2 thieves on my team and the other thief is partied with a ranger. that’s fine, i’ll switch to my ele. Thief proceeds to suicide against a med guard all game… while we get out rotated by the 4q (210/500)

Match 2 ranked: soloq vs 5 – 2 thieves on my team again… without going into detail… (120/500)

Match 3 ranked: soloq vs 5 – 3 thieves on my team vs. the exact same premade from match 2… Our guard thinks that he should treb all game because “I die alot when i stand on a point” (10/500)

Match 4 unranked: 2+111 vs 5 – 4 players from my team start the game by going to home. 2 of them stay there all game. My personal score was 200+… (110/500)

Match 5 ranked: soloq vs 5 – 2 mesmers and 1 thief on my team… we’re going to win! i can feel it! (250/500)

At this point i’m asking myself… “when was the last time I had fun in pvp?” I honestly can’t remember. Sometime last week i think? Well that decides the issue no? I’m saying goodbye until the game becomes fun again.

Maybe stronghold will be better? we didn’t get to beta it here in China :<

Zero Day.2594:

Bran.7425:

Zero Day.2594:

Is there a point in this thread still?

Hurt rear happens.

Yeah no, I get that. But why are there people continuing this thread…?

because i’m bored at work… gah!!

Tempest.4507:

Small scale fights is what this game is all about.

In Small scale fights, a zerker kill-shot warrior is able to do the same of a zerker thief, only easier and safer.

You’re absolutely right. Small scale is really where it’s interesting and 1 v 1 almost always comes down build v build. Besides zerker warriors, fresh air eles, shatter mesmers, Med guardians, zerker rangers, etc. can also instant gib glass thieves while glass thieves cannot do the same back (most of the time :P). Why do you think that is?

I’ll try to explain at least why i think they made it like that. I just do not think it’s a thief’s role.

While other classes might have higher burst, sometimes much higher or even higher aoe burst compared to our single target burst! They could never do what a thief (especially d/d thieves) can do in wvw (small scale or even in GVGs) which is… have the staying power to be behind enemy groups nearly 100% of the time, far from any type of support, have the damage pressure to make squishies do stupid things, and the mobility to get to the exact target whenever needed. The ability to get to the right place, at the right time, stay there, have enough to get the job done (whatever it might be), while outnumbered, and do it over and over again. If these things are what we get for trading away big big numbers then… well that’s fine no?

Obviously there are limits to that. but no other class can do it nearly as well as thieves can. I made an super ugly paint picture of what I think a thief’s job is in a small scale fight and it is not solo down and finish all the things!

And NO, your claims about how you can see 10+ people at the SAME time and understand what they are doing, while also focusing on your target does not save you. It is humanly not possible.

I think what some of the others might be trying to say (in a more aggressive manner :P) is that if you must see 10+ people at the same time a track them… you’re already in a horrible spot… get out! (you’re in the headbutt space… thieves don’t like being in the headbutt space…)

Instead of a thief that needs to get in melee range in order to deal close to the damage of kill-shot, Warrior do it from 1500 range. No need to get in melee range. No need to risk getting hit by knockbacks or AoE. It is NO RISK = HIGH REWARD for the warrior.

I don’t think it’s fair to compare the classes like that. Indeed at the start of a fight, a warrior standing at 1000+ range is “no risk + high reward”. it’s your job to turn it into “high risk + no reward”. By no means do i mean solo down and finish!! Pressure them into situations where “high risk + no reward” becomes true, same goes for other “no risk + high reward” builds (staff ele, power necros, power rangers, etc.) this is the thief’s job!

Tempest.4507:

Well I do not full know hows skill level in NA and CN as my only source of knowledge is through these videos, but in EU Tier 1, it gets real tough. It’s like everyone can see the future, the moment you throw shadow refuge for example, you get insta-feared, knockdowned, or get too much AoE pressure. Can’t really tell how many times I get downed inside Shadow Refuge, to the point where I start to think changing it with something else. You would expect the stealthy class to shape the fight but thats not the case here. Most people save their skills for the time you are revealed.

mmmmm i know what you mean. don’t get me wrong, there are players who do know full well how to counter a thief with their own build. Also keep in mind that d/d isn’t really the most viable build in the world… (I’m sorry! it has to be said! :P) But if the people you’re fighting seems to predict everything your doing… then you might be playing too strait forward. bait out their dangerous skills while you have the cooldowns to deal with them. bait out dodges with fake cnds. cnd + teleports are nearly impossible to predict in a group fight, you can literally be aiming for anyone at a distance.

and refuge… if you cast it without having the dodges to deal with whoever you’re fighting then… well then you’ll die ^^ you just painted a giant target on the ground that you’re not allowed to leave… i think the game automatically teleports any GS mesmer within range and automatically casts iWave whenever a thief uses refuge. yup, i believe there’s a law somewhere that states just that! if you absolutely do not have dodges left and really have to cast it, at least open up the range to the people trying to smack you before putting it down. Withdraw + weapon change will let you dodge + heal + stay inside refuge. SB 3 at an empty direction and pray in a pinch!

If you end up super emergency last ditch i’m out of everything else cast refuge on my head while that giant is whacking me with a hammer then pray then you’re only suffering from the mistake of letting yourself run out of resources to keep yourself safe, a mistake you probably made 30 seconds before you even thought about casting refuge > _ <

Tempest.4507:

Gotta hand it to you, you play good. But in some of those fights your opponents don’t really look like they know how to counter a thief. That guardian in the first fight seemed like his other hand is full :P

I am very interested in your build and gear, sigils and runes. As even though I go more damage based with my build I do lot less with my backstabs and well…overall burst. Highest backstab I did to a non-upscaled player was 7k and thats with 17 or so might and a build that has no survibility (0 in SA and Acro)

thanks! I think the guard was trying really hard to keep his guildies alive (all 3 were from 1 guild :P) and by the time it turned into 1 v 1, his cooldowns were all gone! It’s true that quite a few of those in the video do not know how to counter a thief properly but… most players do not know exactly how… especially in wvw! (basically the same thing in both NA and CN). Skill levels are abit higher in NA but not to the point where it’s significantly harder.

Something i’ve always found very interesting about the d/d set is that while i might lose to particular players or builds 1 v 1 but when it turns into 1 v 3~4 it suddenly becomes much easier! cnd is much too easy to dodge 1 v 1 but when there are multiple targets~ it becomes impossible :P

The build i (mostly) used in the video is linked in the description. New server, new guild, new everything so i played the very safe 06620 :P mostly full exotic except for a couple of ascended trinkets. I also like 26600, 20606, 56003 for d/d. Also like silly builds like hybrid p/d trap rune thief (i think i got whole map zergs angry and chasing me the week i played that… :P!)

Tempest.4507:

Full berserker gear, 6 on SA and other 8 keep changing as I like to experiment with diffrent builds.

hmmmm, you might consider changing from full berserk to a valk/cav/berserk mix. I started off with full berserk too but it didn’t work as well as i wanted it to, added valk & cav and started to win alot more! as i got better i found that i could start putting berserk pieces back one at a time hehe.

poof!

And to those people that keep thrashing on this thread and pretty much are only able to thrash and nothing else, you are a welcome sight. Only thing you are proving is how the truth hurts and you simply can’t stop yourself intervening.

mmmm, I would agree that thieves (especially d/d thieves) has weaknesses. I wish we had a little bit more burst (you can never have enough!). I wish power rangers would stop engaging me at the perfect distance (1000~1100) when i can’t get far enough away fast enough and too far for me to close in time to do any good… That med guardians stop being the giant scary monsters that chases me (gahhh! stop chasingggg meeeeee).

But overall, I think we’re still doing quite fine no? Then again… i really love the d/d playstyle… even if they nerf us to the point that we can only tickle… i’ll still be out there tickling people to deathhhh! so maybe i’m biased :P

Just abit of gameplay from me. The first fight has a rifle/gs warrior (among other things… :P) poor thing is just crippled from blind > _ < they attack so slowly! It’s from the chinese server where i have better ping but pretty much the same thing I do in NA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XH5BmQ4qE

#selfpromotion yay!

Hey Tempest

fellowww d/d thief here! If you don’t mind me asking, what is your build and equipment? I won’t say LTP because i also play with 200+ ping and sometimes get caught off guard by a random glass warrior kneeling at 1200 range :P

however, if you do see a warrior with a giant gun kneeling… as long as you have the blind on stealth trait that almost all x66xx d/d thieves have… you can just cnd → steal at the warrior and be completely safe from the kill shot. I find that i can get cnd → steal → bs → full auto chain into them before they finish casting that silly skill. Blind on stealth will keep you safe so you won’t even have to dodge.

I see a few people here saying that you should try to open range with them and kite… for me that has never worked very well, opening range on someone that has 1200 range when you only have 900 max. What i personally find really effective with warriors is to keep at 0 range. If it’s a rifle/GS warrior, keep blind on them consistently, walk through them when they do the channel pew pew skill (it will make the channel fail), dodge only the stuns and immobs that you are unable to blind, when they take out the GS and do the swing swing swing skill, walk INSIDE their character and most of the chain will miss you. If you land your auto poison on them consistently, it would only be a matter of time before they run or die :P

Happy hunting!

DeceiverX.8361:

Playing without SA teaches one how to be better at the thief because it requires the player to be better to survive in more difficult scenarios; ones which often a thief with SA will be dependent on SA’s ridiculous benefits to survive in and not through skilled play. Taking away the training wheels forces the player either to get better or die, and through death and learning, get better at playing overall. Simply put, you can’t get better at something without failing. Most established thieves will agree the SA line acts as a crutch despite the necessity of SE in many regards, and will openly mention that using SA, like playing P/D, will teach bad habits.

I mostly agree with deceiver’s points except for the statement that ‘SA is a crutch’. If that is true, then some thieves use utilities as a crutch, lasting only as long as they burn through them; sword skills 2 & 3; the acro line etc. can also be a crutch (and are often used as such).

imo, playing as many builds and weaponsets is probably the best way to go. Always staying with any particular build or playstyle will ultimately limit how skilled you can get.

knowing in what situations swiftness & simple movement will be just as effective as a dodge roll or sword 2; that HP is only just another resource you should leverage in order to win and not something to be hoarded, etc. Different builds teach/emphasizes different things.

Playing full SA d/d for example will force you to realize that even with almost as much survivablity as thieves can actually build for, you still cannot stay in melee and still win.

Just in the same way, playing d/d without SA will force you to learn all sorts of ways to avoid taking damage without using your precious dodge-rolls even when you don’t have any other defensive mechanics.

SA is a useful traitline, ultimately it’s how a player plays is what determines if it is a ‘clutch’ or not no? If you’re just staying in stealth as much as possible and slowly… slowly wearing someone down… then sure. but if you’re using it for the staying power that it gives you to ensure you’re exactly where you are needed, when you are needed, then that’s a different story no?

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Most thieves have very predictable gameplay so it’s not that hard to cc them.

‘perma’ stealth thieves feel OP until… you meet people that know exactly how to counter. then they become useless :> Rather than building to counter them, most builds already can. You only need to counter them with how you play!

Simon.3794:

Narkodx.1472:

hehe they haven’t figured out thieves yet like over here on NA

Poison icon is different

Good stuff

they dont allow any skull so every single skull is changed lol, even necro minions.

yeah its weird… even death bloss skill picture was turned into like.. and ugly zombie thingy. weird weird weird weird.

vincecontix.1264:

Op what country are you playing from?

currently in china! xP

Kocoff.7582:

that was well done. It’s those kind of videos that makes me want to try to master D/D again.

@ 7’37 you used Shadowstep + CD. that was sexy man, cause I mainly use this utility to run away.

GG

Thanks! i use shadowstep alot to attack… not sure if its the smartest thing i do because it’s also my main stunbreaker! but… they cant stun me if they’re dead! right…? :P

Hi peoples

Recently moved to the China servers! The lag on NA… bleh.

Thought you guys might like to see some thiefing roamingness from across the pond :P

This is my first video… hope you like it!

Arantheal.7396:

Still engis have two huge weakspots:
cc’s and condis. put out a load of them and you have a good chance against most builds.

Sadly, i don’t believe there is any thief builds that can chain cc’s like that (maybe s/p can come close?) and our only condi set (p/d) is heavily reliant on stealth.

And regarding reveal: how about you stealth before we reach a 1.2k range to you, close in and stun us!?

The reason you won’t see many thieves doing that is mainly because; thieves do not have nearly as much stealth as many people seem to think they do. we could either use an utility (with longgg cooldowns), use our heal before the fight even begins (ahhhh!) or blow most of our initiative to achieve what your thinking. just to get closer than 1.2k range? that’s insane. and the end result would be~ we get to backstab once. what then? x.x

Granted, Analyze can be used even while cc’d, but if you chain stun us we don’t have a chance to get our rotas in action… And most builds will only have exactly ONE stunbreaker… so bait us into using it.

most thief builds have exactly one stun :P (there are no more stuns to pick from)

stof.9341:

Prysin.8542:

actually, the damage multiplier for LB2 is horrible. its 0.37986 per arrow, or something close to that.

So horrible. For a total of 10 arrows per cast, it means a very weak 3.75 total coefficient damage. Think about it : it’s only slightly more than a thief that does C&D and Backstab on a target!

I’m actually quite happy that rangers got their very own viable glass cannon build now. but… this… “it’s only slightly more than a thief that does C&D and Backstab on a target!”. that’s just… wrong. especially considering how many times the burst on the d/d thief set has been nerfed in the past because “it’s just too much for other players”.

Frankly speaking… this patch is pure awful.

watching rangers burst higher than i do at 1500 range… fine

getting 15 seconds of reveal stacked on me all at once… ill deal with it

steal becoming even more unreliable (how?!)… uhhh….

getting shadowstep stuck bug twice in a row… grrr….

melee skills just not landing on anyone anymore, cloak and dagger missing people i’m literally standing on (probably due to the increased lag, did i mention the increased lag? x.x)… gahh!

people are self healing themselves while downed even though im whacking them… blah!

i can’t stomp anymore… okay i’m gone.

gg anet

same here… can’t stomp, big increase of skill lag, shadow step skills failing more than working correctly for no apparent reason, ranging on melee skills very very wonky…

how did they manage to break so many things all at the same time? it’s insane!

need help very badly > <

It’s been a nonstop lag trip for the last 3 weeks+. 2~3 second lag spikes basically everytime i use a skill… rubberbanding left right up down everywhere everyone… the game is completely unplayable. If i’m alone on my thief, i can spam 2222 no problem (for the most part…). the moment another player enters the screen… lag lag and more lag.

Location: Shanghai, China
ISP: China Telecom

I usually use various VPN or gaming software to play… (Battleping / Astrill / etc.) to play and go online (yay censorship!) but even they are no longer helping…

Any help would be appreciated… at my wits end… I would transfer onto the Chinese servers but… full ascended… & inciny… > <

Emi

i hate this i hate this trait so much!!

if you’re fighting 1 person and last refuge triggers… thats your own fault if you reveal yourself… fighting against multiple people…. last refuge is a death sentence…

fix this alreadyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hate this sooo much > <

in light of the recent balance patch preview for thieves…. this is by far the biggest nerf… making steal unreliable…

btw, does anyone know what they were trying to fix? something about rubberbanding sometimes due to elavation? in my head its like… they fixed rubberbanding by making it rubberband more…

having the same problem! but my game is fully patched. i just cannot log in for hours at a time… sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt… help please!

[trait] Panic Strike – 4s immob to 2.5s
[trait] Invigorating Precision – 5% to 8%
[trait] Ricochet – added effect of increasing range by 150 (for a total of 1050)
[trait] Venom Share – shared venoms effects will be based on thief’s condi stat
[weapon] dagger auto will cleave 2 targets (not including backstab)
[weapon] black powder blind reduced to 2 second base and will only pulse once every 2 seconds
[weapon] Flanking strike – increased ini cost by 1 and will no longer chain into larcenous strike unless you hit something
[weapon] larcenous stike – decrease ini cost by 1
[weapon] unload – cast time decreased by 20%
[weapon] choking gas will now do a tiny bit of physical damage when it lands (taking you out of stealth)

something like that!

Auesis.7301:

I can think of plenty of enemy types that will rip through the nerfed BP.

like d/d thieves… :P

Tanought.5428:

Thieves can be pretty OP.

L2p your class.

not being able to be certain classes is balance, if a thief could default win any class all there would be are thieves.

Did you just dig up and necro a 3 month old post just to say ‘L2P!!!!’? X.x

Warrior changes:
1. Warrior’s get a reveal skill, 6 second reveal on any autoattack…. :>

Thief buffs:
1. All shadowstep skills removed due to the possibility of motion sickness (huge buff)
2. Daggers replaced with bananas
3. All stealth skills no longer grant stealth. Instead, when your character uses a skill that used to grant stealth, he/she will say “i can’t even…” instead. (Used to confuse your enemies) Huge buff as reveal can no longer be considered to be a debuff!

OhMiGoSh FIX STEAL!! i’ve had 5 steals fail (rubber band, does nothing goes into full cooldown, mug trait reveal…. shadowsteps near the target but not close enough for cnd to land…) in a row today… this is… insane….

and…

Death Blossom
1. Increase animation speed by 25%
2. Evade frames on keypress! evade length stays the same
3. Decrease dmg (both power & condi) by 25%
4. lower ini cost by 1 (25% less)

same dmg to ini as before! evade more reliable… make it feasible for power builds to use it as an evade!! T^T

other than that…. OhMiGoSh FIX STEAL!!

Geiir.7603:

Hey guys!

Cloak and Dagger
Remember when Cloak and Dagger got nerfed in PvP so that it did less damage? It currently uses a coefficient of 1.0 while in PvE/WvW it is 1.5. I remember that one of the arguments used when this nerf was made was that it was because the combined damage of CnD, Mug and Backstab was just too much – later Anet decided to nerf Mug so that it couldn’t critically hit any more while still leaving CnD in its inferior state.

Can you remember the last time you saw a D/D thief in PvP? No? Me neither. D/P are the current king because of its utilities (blind, teleports, stealth on-demand). Bringing CnD back to where it was would make D/D the king of burst again and it would possibly make it viable in competitive play again.

I for one would love to see this change.

Revealed
Revealed in PvE/WvW; 3 seconds, in PvP; 4 seconds.

Many of you may think that this isn’t a big thing, but just go and try it out, you’ll notice it. The dagger auto attack chain is exactly 3 seconds long, which makes it feel natural to hit CnD right after the last attack of the chain, but this is not possible in PvP.

Anet said that they want the transition from PvE to PvP to feel seamless – this isn’t seamless. If you actively play all game modes then this is a real pain! It just feels clunky and unnatural in its current state, while 3 seconds feel just perfect.

I believe that this is also one of the main reasons Dagger off-hand isn’t viable in PvP. Reverting this change would be huge for the thief! Remember; we can’t contest points while in stealth, which was one of the reasons they did this change (we could contest points before). Now that contesting was fixed I think it should be natural to revert the change and open up new build options for PvP.

TL:DR
Revert the Revealed and Cloak and Dagger nerf.

What do you guys think about this?

yes please T^T

make it guild based! anyone not in your guild should be red named and whackable! so many possiblities outside of gvg with that .

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’m sure someone is probably going to write a longer respond than this refuting all of this or claiming all their nerf suggestions are reasonable (they generally aren’t) but whatever. If I wanted to get a bit straw man I could say that most of those who post anti-Warrior threads are Thief players who want to distract people from some of their builds or players that just want Warrior to go back to being a free kill so that they don’t actually have to adjust their build or learn how to counter them.

BurrTheKing.8571:

The amount of thief bashing we see on these forums is actually staggering. The most amazing part though is the massive amount of incorrect information or just flat out lies about the class is greater than any other game I’ve played in recent memory.

Oh, I also love the classic “I beat thieves all the time but X, Y, and Z are OP.” If you don’t have problems vs them then how are they OP…

right back at you… :>

XPGAMER.7324:

I think D/D is great for 1v1s, I don’t know what you’re all talking about O.O You can’t 1vX if you can’t 1v1.

i’ve always felt that 1v2 or 3 to be easier than 1v1 on d/d. maybe its because it’s much harder for your opponents to predict who you are going to cnd… or your burst gets underestimated because of the ‘i have friends here i’m not scared’ mentality? duno

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Emi.4152:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Lux.7169:

Oh wow, I think I actually hurt some people’s feelings XD

I didn’t realize the pve community was so sensitive. Perhaps the guide should address this <3

PVE community lol how about we set up some 1 v 1s to settle this :-).

I wanna join in on the 1 v 1s too! or do i have to start flaming to attend? :P

yes please caed! to the post someone made about showing the shadowstep spots in pvp!

Yes no flaming = no 1 v 1 .

mmm… you are a noob cake and/or muffin, s/d cheesy PVE spam stealth bads etc. !

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Lux.7169:

Oh wow, I think I actually hurt some people’s feelings XD

I didn’t realize the pve community was so sensitive. Perhaps the guide should address this <3

PVE community lol how about we set up some 1 v 1s to settle this :-).

I wanna join in on the 1 v 1s too! or do i have to start flaming to attend? :P

yes please caed! to the post someone made about showing the shadowstep spots in pvp!

the biggest difference between warrior and thief mobility is cost i think… to keep up with a GS/Sx warrior a thief will have to burn through utilities & initiative while the warrior will be able to retain most of their burst / defensive potential regardless how far and fast they travel. (yes, the burst skills left to the warrior may be ‘harder’ to land but that is besides the point, the thief will have no burst skills to even consider using left. I would take ‘hard to land’ skills over ‘no skills’ any day, wouldn’t you?).

in thief OP disengage QQ posts.. many people would recommend that you should not chase a thief. it’s not worth it, it’s dangerous, they will have the upper hand, etc etc. Most thieves would recommend that you should not chase warriors, it’s not worth it, it’s dangerous, they will have the upper hand, etc etc :P

panicbutton.1053:

It seems that people boast others for being successful with a weapon-set that is more handicapped than another. These aren’t the Special Olympics :/ The reality I’m trying to portray is that if two people are of equal skill level, there’s just no valid way that D/D would override D/P in any scenario.

i wouldn’t say d/d is handicapped although it is true that (assuming equal skill level) d/d should never be able to win against d/p. That is simply one of the worst match ups for d/d.

However, the higher burst available to d/d thieves allows for a completely different set of tactics than d/p. they also sustain themselves much better in prolonged fights (if you can manage!) due to the less intense ini consumption. At the same time you can gear tankier and still retain a higher DPS than a full glass d/p thief. Surely there are situations that calls for that? (garri fights… om nom nom)

Back on topic! I would love to see a d/p guide. I’ve never been one to turn down free knowledge! :P

Nil.4320:

Hello,

i cannot find any updates? Whats the best balanced DD/DP build at the moment?

Thanks

d/d ‘balanced’ build completely depends on your skill level ^^ just keep in mind when reading this 8 month thread that this is before the ferocity nerf! you can no longer min max like ^ > <.

If you really cannot decide~ try using 1/3 power vit toughness and the rest zerker (for wvw) and slowly get rid of the pvt stuff until you notice a big big drop in survivablity, then that pretty much your ‘balance’

1. add commentary
2. more! :P
3. d/p thieves, p/d condi thieves, condi engineers!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-Nightblade-Cloak-Dagger-Tips-Tricks/first#post4193741

cnd is your friend for survivability! :>

makee moreee! :>

some ideas for your next video :P

1. cnd → shadowstep → ini sig → steal (worrying about cooldowns is for loserrrs xP viva la gap close!!)
2. free camera → backstab → shadowstep
3. autoattack 1 → dodge

i’m sure i’m forgetting a bunch more… teach us your secrets T^T!

bigmonto.4215:

So we give up on complaining on Thief’s mobility?

The truth is Thief has the most mobility by far. The spam-able dagger 2 alone out run warriors except maybe GS + SW warriors. Your average GS warrior is more mobile than some other classes, but they are quiet kite-able. And your SW warrior is only about average. Everything else basically has no mobility.

Heavy armor or not makes no difference. Or should I be complain about how could people shoot fire and lighting out of their hands? Or people create minions out of thin air?

To match a GS SW warrior’s mobility, a thief has to sacrifice much muchh more. we need to use runes or a utility to get the 25% movement speed, burn through all our initiative and utilities to catch up (literally 0 skills left even if we catch up) and will still eventually get left behind (main hand dagger thieves are only more mobile than GS SW warriors if we burn through our utilities & steal. after that a warrior is much faster). Thief mobility OP! nerf! i thought this was a warrior thread? x3

btw, a GS only warrior cannot outrun a mainhand dagger thief but they have more than enough mobility to get away (and tanky enough to take the few hits a thief might be able to throw at them while chasing)

one thing that always bothered me about camp guards are the scout’s blind… they have the most insane reaction time ever! 100% of the time (unless they already used it) they will blind you the moment you start casting cloak and dagger (on a thief) it’s crazy x.x obviously you can get around it but… soooo annoying