Guild Wars 2

I played D/P a lot for a while… was great in WvW, not so much in SPvP. I’m back to running D/D in SPvP after a long spell on S/D and I run conditions with very high heals in WvW because of all the D/P thieves there…. I prefer to stalemate them and move off rather than have a fight that lasts too long.

noobftw.9654:

alright guys, before bashing me, keep in mind my main is thief and I love the thief game play but this op trait line is ruining it.

I understand anet intention to give thief the best burst and mobility and everything is just busted once this trait line gets in picture.

Minor 25, Gain 2 stacks might for 15 seconds when you go into stealth.
Major 30, Regenerate health while in stealth.

With cnd chaining or smoke screen+leap, you can easily get 10 stacks of might before you back stabbing. This completely breaks the deadly arts trait line. If I have 30 points to spend, if spent on SA, player will get spamable stealth, spamable condition removable if wanted, 1 free binding power, spamable healing and most importantly, comparing to DA, you are gaining 50 power too. Peeps used to still invest at least 10 in DA for mug so thief is really bursty, now when you turn mug from a burst skill to semi-burst+heal, that 10 points in DA isn’t really worth it.

With the currently trait lineup, 30 in SA is almost a must. It gives thief top condition removal, best escape option, top healing (survivability) on top of best burst and best mobility among all the classes. This really breaks it.

anet fix this pls.

Disclaimer: I am not asking for a nerfing of thief and I am not claiming thief is op. What I am asking for is anet looking into SA trait line and probably move 25 minor and/or 30 major to another trait line.

What a tortuous way to get might stacks. Just invest in signet burn build, hit all three with the right signet trait from crit strikes and add thrill of the crime and you always open up with 16 stacks of might and you haven’t had to go blipping around with stealth for 5 minutes beforehand.

When I run it it’s always as a second set and open with D/D blossoms and trops then switch (geomancy sigil for 3 extra stacks) and then the usual P/D rotation. Makes it more interesting as this set gets boring fast on it’s own.

EvilKupo.2197:

So Thief is my first character i’ve leveled and I’m right about level 46 right now. Currently I’m running a condition build (something like http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoYlcmaOXeS5E9pEhnivO2+DXF ) and I absolutely LOVE it! I can kill large groups of mobs even 2+ levels ahead of me with no problem, even kill veterans around my level usually.

I love the feel of dodging around, watching the numbers pop up while the mob crawls slowly towards me just to hit them with the dodge caltrops and then Death Blossom over them again.

But reading around the forums lately and it seems that this type of build/playstyle just won’t do much at level 80 for PvE or PvP. I know 1 on 1, this lacks, but I’ve never ran into a situation where I couldn’t kite my way to a victory (or get away without dying).

I really like this game because I heard so much about how there is no ‘best builds’ and it’s more about being good at what style you like.

So I’m not asking if the way I play is good or not, I’m asking about the long term, level 80 and beyond, and how viable it will be.

Thanks for any advice/criticism!

I find in WvW as long as you are ticking at around 105+ on your bleeds and you keep poison and cripple on them you can spec interestingly in other areas and do great with bags of survivability and heals.

I prefer D/D and P/D as weapon sets though with bow in inventory.

Engels.8537:

Blackhat.4016:

It’s a training place for those ones who want to play tPvP. For everybody else it is not and punishing them for not playing tPvP would be wrong.

It wouldn’t be punishing them, it would be disencouraging the “10vs10 ZergFest HIGH GLORY” playstyle.
If for some people that’s their idea of fun, let it be, but I’m pretty sure most of them are there to get titles/finishers/gear sets, and I think Anet shouldn’t reward that.

It is some people’s idea of fun and this is a game. Where fun is rewarded.

S/D can burst really well. I like Lyssa runes, haste and 2 signets to blow if you’re going balls-to-the-wall burst though. I only ever go 25 in DA as a max though and quite often just 10. I like having more init.

Yeah. But the answer is no.

I have absolutely no stealth in the build I am running at the moment and get the exact same comments.

It’s a habit to complain about stealth, not actually a reason for complaint.

The OP didn’t say he was having problems with thieves, as a bunker engineer he will be killing them (especially GC ones) easily. He just said he was being hit my 6k backstabs and doesn’t like it very much.

If he is dieing to GC thieves on a bunker engineer… there is a different problem here.

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the problem with your “challenge”, travlane. You won’t be trying to actually fight them, you’ll be simply trying to “not die to make your point”.

If the point in this game was to run from people, Norn would be the most OP race in the game (Snow Leopard represent!).

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@Dasorine: other classes can suffer from those very same latency/technical issues. However they are punished for wasting abilities when blind, dodged, blocked, etc.

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I don’t think most thieves are OP … in fact, i think most are rubbish. However, I think their skill floor is ridiculously low (i.e. lowest in the game) due to the fact that they have “training wheels” built-in where they don’t follow the same risk/reward mechanics the 7 other classes in the game adhere to.

Absolutely not true… I play Ranger and Guardian also and in their current form you can be half asleep and they function just fine. The ranger in particular is remarkably easy to play well.

You can burst on S/D fine. Had a quick play with it – didn’t even bother with haste on these two.

Are folks able to small scale / solo / duo on this server set?

Nothing has actually changed to the extent where Ski would stop dieing to every thief anyway. The patch notes are a placebo for him.

Yeah TONS of rangers and I ran mine for like 10 games the other night – they have buffed the kahoonas off of it… almost unkillable.

Alucard.7439:

I recently started playing guild wars again cause i was busy for the past 5-6 months and had stopped playing.I decided to play a thief (Mostly for playing pvp). But after looking at the forums i lost any will to play a thief.All i hear is how nerfed and hated the class is and this is happening only to thieves(at least to this extent). So in the end making a thief is a waste of time? Because i would really hate to level a class to 80 and then realize that no matter what i won’t even be able to be average in pvp no matter how good I am?

Alucard the friar?

That’s awesome OP did it right.

I played my ranger for the first time in Weeks this morning. Holy kerplunk they have boosted the nuts off it over the last few patches.

Henrik.7560:

Before: 1# Thief (as always) #2 Mesmer (glamour builds) #3 Elementallist (superior AoE)

After: 1# Thief (still haven’t nerfed heartseeker -.- ) #2 Guardian (superior healing) #3 Mesmer (badly nerfed)

Why it changed:
Thieves are still overpowered and will stay because they denny that heartseeker spammers are completely easy to counter (steal- 3k heartseeker- 3k, 4k, 6k, 6k), apparently isnt overpowered. The steal nerf was good, but that other skills are far too powerful. Cloak and Dagger should have a nerf too, its a source of stealth, enemy vulnerability, AND deals 6k damage on crits.
Mesmers had a HUGE nerf which ruined every confusion build as of its damage is crap now, losing their zerg popularity.
Elementallist had a HUGE nerf as well which stuff RTL up for zerg travel, and skills while in mist form and many other things.

Heartseeker was nerfed for all formats and CnD nerfed for sPvP:

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Updates

2012
September

Heartskeer: Reduced damage of the 100%-50% threshold by 20%. Damage thresholds changed. Old: 100%-66%, 66%-33%, 33%-0%. New: 100%-50%, 50%-25%, 25%-0%

October

Assassin’s Signet: This skill has been updated to grant 15% damage for 5 attacks rather than 50% damage for one attack.
Pistol Whip: Reduced damage by 15%

November

Dancing Dagger:This skill’s damage has been reduced by 50%
Tactical Strike: This skill’s damage has been increased by 10% in all formats. This skill’s daze duration has been reduced from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP.
Cluster Bomb: This skill’s damage is reduced by 15% in PvP.
Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.

2013
January

Spider Venom, Devourer Venom, Ice Drake Venom, Skale Venom, Basilisk Venom, Assassin’s Signet
The number of uses on this skill’s effect will now decrease if an attack lands or if the attack is negated by Blind, Block, Evade, Obstructed, or Invulnerable.

March
*Stealth: The duration of Revealed has been increased to 4 seconds when coming out of stealth via an attack.

Quickness: Reduced from 100% attack speed to 50%. (All professions)
Caltrops: Reduced duration from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.
Basilisk Venom skill: No longer immobilizes targets in addition to stunning them.

April

Mug: Can no longer critically hit.
Trick Shot: First arrow is no longer heat-seeking.
Stealth: The duration of Revealed has been reverted to 3 seconds in PvE._

It’s because all thief players are inherently cheats and all other class players are inherently honorable.

It was pretty rough in tPvP for a thief anyway. This was genuinely an odd set of changes to bring about without providing some improvement in tPvP desirability. Infinite dodger, infinite stealther and such are just no good in there for obvious reasons.

Doggie.3184:

I think it’s just most classes are just doing more damage now cuz of the signet buffs and whatever else? 100% more stats on warrior signets? I haven’t tried any Spvp yet though. It’d be easier for the squishiest class in the game to notice becoming even squishier when everyone else starts hitting harder.

I think you’re right. I went and did a bunch of SPVP on S/D then played D/D + P/P burst for a few rounds and there are LOADS more GC’s in there. I had 25 stacks of power up, had the power signet and used unload on pretty much everyone… used to be 2-4k depending on crits and I was seeing 6k+ a lot more last night. I was killing everyone WAY faster. TONS of warriors in there on GC builds.

Yeah I am on T1 and it even a couple of weeks ago it was pretty easy to find some good 1v1 fights. Last few times I went to WvW it blew hard. MASSIVE zergs and as soon as you attack a straggler they either run like stink, log off mid fight or the zerg turns around. Back in SPVP pretty much full time now.

P/D is pretty linear all the way through… I liked having D/D also though to prevent stark-staring boredom (assuming you are condition so doing some deathblossom attacks amongst the blamblamblamblamblam kplink <invis> repeat for everrrrrrr is slightly less soul destroying.

@OP do you genuinely NOT like fighting good thieves? seriously? No matter what I play, the most fun is vs stealth heavy thieves. All other fights are usually formulaic and end before they start based on spec.

ski.4927:

Faeyd.5094:

Fun vid.. do you ever go in with D/D first?

I love seeing 23-25 stacks on them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LTCaT7vpf4

I had been running P/D & SB. I will switch it up and run P/D & D/D and give this a try. I won’t be using caltrops as in a fight where I would need the extra bleeds, the person I’m fighting isn’t dumb enough to stand in it. However, starting a fight with a couple death Blossoms looks like fun…

I’ve been in sPvP running similar and watched folks stand in skill-caltrops and 2 sets of dodgetrops whilst I stayed stealthed The Geomancy sigil adds another 3 for good measure.

tagnut.8621:

Seriously is someone blowing the thief dev on a regular basis? So they get to spend 50% of the time invisible and immune to all damage whilst pumping out insane dps? Really? Really? 4s revealed reverted to 3s? Should be 10s min.

Thieves get damage immunity while stealthed?

If someone is blowing the dev they are biting… dancing daggers, Heartseeker, Mug, assassins signet all nerfed now. They revert one change back in WvW to where it was before because they figured out culling was the issue. L.2.P.

Travlane.5948:

Blackhat.4016:

It was pretty strong for an adept major trait. Imo way too strong for only 10 points. Maybe moving it to a higher tier instead of nerfing it would have been better though.

They would still complain about it. You know whats next, right? CnD! Or, asking for a 25% deduction on back stab. Every single major patch we have had an extremely large damage nerf on at least 1 trait/skill. It will not stop :P If they do, they should start implementing a respective 2 boosts for defense/heals so we can still play at a competitive level! This is what the nerfs have done! (*’s indicate which setups were better/more usable before their respective dmg/skill nerfs)

SKILL SET__________PVE_______WVW_____SPVP______TPVP

D/D______________ YES________NO*______NO*_______NO*
P/D______________ NO________1/2*______1/2*________NO*
S/P______________ 1/2*________NO*______NO*_______NO*
S/D______________ 1/2________YES_______1/2________1/2
SB _______________1/2________1/2*_______1/2*_______1/2*
P/P_______________NO_______NO________NO_______NO
D/P_______________1/2_______YES________YES_______YES

Shows what weaponsets are playable/played by thieves in each respective mode.
***1/2 = Situation Specific but usually as a main weapon set “No”

I’m guessing heart seeker leap removed, no more per-casting CnD, backstabbing arc cut down to 5 degree, black powder and HS interaction removed and thief is no longer able to crit.

Fun vid.. do you ever go in with D/D first?

I love seeing 23-25 stacks on them.

Be proud of your cheese. I’ve read about ‘guilt’ and ‘sensitivity’ and stuff… sounds exhausting. Just play what works best if that is what makes you most happy.

multani.1452:

Meh I simply just let them cry and complain. Their tears fuel my existence in this realm anyway.

This

I get a lot no matter what the spec I am running on thief or Ele… BUT… once they feel compelled to complain, I feel compelled to follow them around griefing them over and over It makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

Here’s a pro harassment tip. Heartseeker was MADE to create anger. Hang around for a while until someone who bad mouthed you is limping around, doing well against multiple enemies… you know… having a great fight. Then smash 2222222222. And laugh maniacally.

In hotjoin I play as a survivalist… my personal goal is 10 kills to zero deaths. I don’t look at which team wins… I concentrate on killing and surviving. If I die once, I failed.

Just so happens that playing this way seems to do a lot for whichever side I’m on too.

MaXi.3642:

srsly, this is the same state as with Quickness, thiefs cryied that they are crap, useless, lowest tier… didnt noticed it ingame… you just lost 2k dmg at max every 45sec, thats not end of the world, thats one more autoattack…

It’s a long list of nerfs that continue to constrain the thief into fewer builds which is the problem. Dancing Daggers, Assassin’s Signet, stealth reveal debuff increase, Heartseeker threshold nerf, Mug. All pretty heavy DPS nerfs (stealth reveal harms conditions as well as direct DPS).

And I expect there will be a nerf to precasting CnD, nerf to Heartseeker leap distance, D/P nerf to prevent black powder/HS stealth etc.

The problem with the class is that it is a noob harvester. Skilled players find thieves food… unskilled are on the menu.

Personally I like playing multiple builds on any class I play and the thief is running out of viable ones each patch. We’ll probably see more heavy heal thieves after the patch (I sometimes run apothecary in WvW and shaman in SPVP) and they will be complained about bevause they just don’t die. They also don’t cap points nor kill anyone… but the simple act of being alive will be too much for most people.

swinsk.6410:

I think this thread is hilarious.

I stated in another thread that D/P > condi builds, no one believed me.

I said that I killed two thieves in 2v1 as D/P and people said they could easily over come my shadows embrace…

P/D = crap unless you are fighting noobs IMO.

Wild Bill isn’t condition… He’s literally P/D only which is bad.

I’m running D/P at the moment and it’s a great noob-harvester but no more effective than D/D P/D.

Coloxeus.3480:

LoneWolfie.1852:

I think P/D D/D is very powerful 1 on 1, great CC, easy to reset fights and great spike damage, most low armored builds will have huge trouble fighting that. Imo, if caltrops wasn’t nerfed and CnD duration was 3 seconds, WB will have a good chance.

but shadow’s embrace trait. Instantly removes 1 condition upon entering stealth and continues to do so every 3 seconds.

I just fought another D/P thief in WvW while running condition P/D D/D and after 10 minutes it was again attrition and ended in two bows and walking away. Used to be an easy win for me but people are getting better… Embrace usually isn’t enough but some of these guys are rocking.

I think ‘owned’ would be appropriate after that response

Bill’s not even ‘condition’, he’s just P/D. Bad weapon set against stealth heavy thieves.

Zumy.6318:

The warrior went to the legendary guards when he got low and ran out of cooldowns.
Worth a laughter, but not aknowledgement.

Quite right. He should have stayed and died.

Like a moron.

koroshi.2658:

It is one of the few times that you do find a nice player to fight against without many interuptions, had so much fun. I did many shadowsteps on my sword, but that this something I will have to work on personally. Personally I can not wait until the custom arena’s are out (hopefully not too expensive) so we can have our night fights without server restrictions.

Faeyd.5094:

Great play Koroshi, great warrior too. What server you on?

I play on Desolation EU.

BAH! so do I I was hankering for a duel.

swinsk.6410:

Faeyd.5094:

I have no problems wearing down shadow embrace thieves… you just have to make sure they have 3 conditions on them at all times… bleeds, poison and cripple.

Having D/D and P/D is key.

That’s pretty hard to do. Engineers even have a problem keep conditions on me and they can get 5 or 6 conditions going at a time.

All the D/P thief needs to do is chain stealth once and all your conditions are gone.

D/P + SE + good player = not dieing to conditions ever…

Even if I get immob, just drop black powder, heart seeker, and then as you enter stealth, good bye immob…

Condition damage sucks as a thief. If you want to kill stuff with conditions make a necro imo.

I find it easy to keep all 3 on. Poison is on auto-chain for dagger (and steal of course), bleeds on DB and cripple on dagger also. P/D is the lesser part of the condition spec.

You may be better, but there is not one thief on any spec that wins a 1v1 in SPVP aginst that when I am stacking heavy heals (so even less condi damage). And I can keep 20 stacks of bleed on pretty easily. Now if they want to get away that’s OK and stalemates are common, but they aren’t killing a D/D P/D heal thief.

swinsk.6410:

awgardner.9634:

If you want to follow in the footsteps of one of the greatest Thieves to play the game, you should check out the Wild Bill videos on youtube demonstrating how when played right, his P/D build its a force to be feared. Not one of his videos is 1v1s, 1v2’s and UP only. He has truly perfected his profession and spec. I followed him and built a toon to be just like him, though my skills are a little off from what he is capable of, I can verify that what he does is absolutely possible when perfected, but I guess same goes for any spec.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that his videos are sequels. He has posted them since the early days and you watch a master piece unfold over hours upon hours of footage. Detailed and very informative.

Any thief with shadows embrace will destroy P/D thief with ease…

I have no problems wearing down shadow embrace thieves… you just have to make sure they have 3 conditions on them at all times… bleeds, poison and cripple.

Having D/D and P/D is key.

mursie.3681:

evilapprentice.6379:

mursie.3681:

This is for tpvp only. Outside of that, this conversation is not intended.

in tpvp – thiefs are completely and utterly weak, unless their teammates are great. Period. Only the warrior has more issues. It has only one viable build – GC burst.

This class can not assault a point against a bunker 1v1.

This class should not be capping a point unless potentially a back cap ninja..but at moderate to high levels of tpvp..that doesn’t exist.

This class has to engage an enemy….that is already engaged… to eliminate them. This class should not attempt to stomp in a team fight environment. Not because black powder isnt awesome for stomping (it is)… but because the thief is so completely frail that the 3 seconds attempting to stomp will likely end up in you being dead.

Bottom line – if your teammates suck…if they die instantly in an engagement… you as a thief will be totally worthless and bring nothing to the match. You absolutely must be carried by your teammates and if they can carry you… you are an unbelievable offensive weapon. If they can’t carry you… you will bring nothing to help the match.

imho.

In this vein..they are extremely weak. The class requires its teammates to be good and carry in order to realize its potential.

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment, just adding a clarification – if properly supported, a theif is an amazing offensive weapon, the class isn’t being carried…its being supported.

Carrying implies that the thief contributes nothing or next to nothing, when you yourself are saying that properly supported they’re a strong offensive asset.

I think it’s semantics but I will try to demonstrate why. If the thief is “not” properly “supported”… they really can’t do anything in the match. They can’t sustain any dmg fights…they can’t bunk…. they can’t cap. They are worthless. Thus, in order to not be worthless… they must be “supported”. If you exchange the word “support” with the word “carry”… I do not believe the message I just wrote changes its meaning whatsoever.

This is technically true… but you can spec to hold up mesmers and D/D eles to such an extent that they can’t cap either and the only thing to break the attrition is when someone else arrives. I’ve been running this for the last couple of days and it’s no glory harvest like I’m used to… but the team win more bouts as a result. If you can cancel out the strengths of their top Mesmer or Ele I think it’s worth the investment.

The team that spent the most on gems wins.

Earendhil.1532:

This stems from Warhammer where respect of your enemies was a real part of the community. GoW also have roots in that game and do the same.

In Warhammer it was common to let a GvG fight finish before moving through, sometimes even giving the other side a chance to Rez up and gather strength before hitting them.

Unlike the BB and AR zergs we are facing at the moment.

DAoC had this in spades too. Most decent guilds actually never attacked duos/solos.

Can all the French dudes stop /whispering to Castaguire my thief?

I know just enough French to know that it’s about my spec and stuff but after a ‘je suis Anglais’ they just say OK and don’t ask in English

Great play Koroshi, great warrior too. What server you on?

Auesis.7301:

My Thief, now immortalized by a paintbrush.

Amazing. What a fantastic talent to have!!

Ketharius.9018:

I love scouting for my guild as a Ranger, I bring my sPvP build to WvW when I scout and whenever Thieves think I’ll be a easy kill they soon find out that it’ll cost them a repair bill.

Yeah I have a well-kitted level 80 ranger too that I play as pretty much the sPvP version. Good rangers, balanced build: 1v1 are a fantastic fight.

Thieves first. Then ranged classes who will simply pincushion you… if it’s a rifle warrior, he’d be next.

andyMak.6985:

not saying it’s op just it’s ridiculous that i can stealth across the map

i’ve followed Zergs around in stealth and watched groups and followed them around the map in stealth

sure if they were paying attention they would see the BP ring but still i can get from one end of the map to the other in stealth

What a dreadful waste of your time.

Gungnir Grimm.7123:

well, for we also have initiative as our class mechanic. we are the only class that can spam abilities, if all the complaints about how op HS spam is have escaped you. we can do things like evasion spam with certain builds that other classes have no hope of doing because of our flexible resource system. the problem comes when people ignore initiative because it is in the background. if you main a thief it is far less obvious than other mechanics, but no less powerful. also, as for modifying steal “only mug gets chosen” is full of crap. I know of several builds that take bountiful theft and/or thrill of the crime. honestly the only steal trait I never see is the daze on steal from 30 points into trickery.

Yep. We’re actually in a pretty good place balance wise based on role (in-combat mobility and burst) except in high end tournaments. When they nerf Mug and burst we’re up the creak.

EDIT: played a lot of warrior and ranger the last few days. Coming back to thief isn’t a bad experience after that. Have to say though, on both those classes I seek out thiefs to kill… has spvp seen a new influx of brand new thieves or something?