Guild Wars 2

Arrk.4102:

Healing role is really nonexistent in this game, and the way it works is if you use the tome to heal you are useless at all times in any sort of team setting. If you want to be a dedicated healer, this is the wrong game for you.

Healers are very much a thing in this game, it’s just that in most PvE content they aren’t necessary at all and only serve to slow down the run. The exceptions are high level fractals and The Silverwastes. They’re also at least viable in PvP and WvW. I wouldn’t be surprised if certain healer builds become meta for stronghold, when it’s released. I’m sure healing guardians would be one of those if that happened, assuming Tome of Courage isn’t removed.

Arrk.4102:

DPS up time tells me you are talking about PvE. In PvE healing is useless, for the same reason Zerker is the META right now. Damage>all the rest. You would be helping your team by doing damage, and in Guardians case supporting with blinds and blocks more than you would by “healing” for 30 seconds, and then doing nothing useful for the next 3 minutes.

There’s no reason healing guardians can’t use blinds/blocks/etc after Tome of Courage. It’s just that in addition to the various protective abilities they have, they also have some of the best allied healing in the game. The trade-off here is damage (to a lesser extent if the player uses zealot’s gear, not available in PvP though); the trade-off isn’t losing protective support for gaining healing support.

That’s more of a bunker shout build rather than a healing build.

Unless Signet of Courage has a large radius for its pulse, the only thing it’ll be healing is the user most of the time. Healing guardians aren’t nearly as tanky as normal ones since they invest everything into supporting allies over supporting themselves, so being close enough to the allies that you want to be effected by Signet of Courage isn’t something that’s necessarily going to happen. Heal Area could be used at 1200 range to rapidly heal your allies, SoC’s passive might as well just be a second form of regeneration.

I use a very similar build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAW7dl8ApXotDxeI0ENBEBl9JWR8xODT4CXFAA-TJxHAB1eRAQqMwP7PAwTAAA

It works very well for me (I win the majority of my matches with it), and my team certainly enjoys it when I use it. Sadly, I don’t see it being as good if Tome of Courage is removed.

Saiyan.1704:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Templar.3418:

^

It being a way better ranger than an actual ranger in pve or pvp is pretty much a problem in itself.

Well, you gotta remember that they’re changing rangers as well. All of these specializations are supposed to be different from the core class.

I see the Druid having 1200 range support options with staff, but not bow. We received the range support that they asked for lol. Their pewpew options are not going to change.

Of course, their staff is going to offer the range, aoe support that we wanted in our staff… so I guess it’s fair.

Yayyy, nobody wins~

Unless a zealot amulet is added to PvP, I don’t think staffbow guardians would be much of a thing. Even then, simply speccing into DH contradictorily takes away a guardian’s innate ranged support (virtues). As such, I think scepter/longbow guardians are a more likely thing.
I don’t really see why a support guardian (the only guardians that would want to use staffs) would spec into DH anyway.

Obtena.7952:

Arnath.2319:

Not a single person as been able to provide a logical explanation for the terrible Dragon Hunter theme.

… other than Anet. That’s what matters.

If you’d stop whiteknighting for a moment, you’d realize that ANet can be wrong and they can make bad decisions. I know that may be hard to believe, but yes, it’s true. They can still make any decision they’d like, but the decisions they make are not necessarily flawless.

Chronomancers are certainly unique. I’d say reapers are as well, to a lesser extent.

Black Box.9312:

No. No. No. Specializations should give us ways to play classes that are unavailable on any other class. That’s the point; to bring new elements to the game to give it a breath of fresh air.

Going with the subclass route is 100% not the answer. It’d have been one thing if they had a subclass mechanic at launch like they did with GW1, but it’s too late for that now. People that want to play a trap ranger should play a trap ranger. There’s no reason to turn guardians into trap rangers when instead we could give guardians an entirely unique new playstyle that isn’t anything we already have in the game.

I was assuming (and hoping) that ANet was going to do this for all specializations when the Chronomancer got released. Then the dragonhunter got released, because who needs a unique new playstyle when you can be a wannabe?

Arrk.4102:

I really hope we will get Dragonbrawler for Warriors. The complaints would blot out the sun.

Me too. I also hope it’s magically themed, and gets Glyph utilities.

Valmir.4590:

dietzero.3514:

No. That is a ridiculous stretch.

Only for closed-minded person who have chosen to hate everything about the Dragonhunter because it doesn’t have the kittentier name of Paragon.

I was hoping it would be called something besides Paragon actually, but I hate it because literally using the spec at all harms a guardian’s ability to support because the new virtues are badly designed, and because the support stance from the leaked longbow got removed (subsequently with all of its support ability). So basically support guardians get it in the kitten , and support is the primary reason I play guardians. So no, I (and I’m assuming other support guardians) don’t just hate it because of the name. I was willing to let the name slide until I realized that ANet was lying out of their kitten about this spec being a “backline support” spec.
I think a lot of guardians dislike this spec for a similar reason, but people in general mostly just dislike the name it has.

I think they shouldn’t pull a dragonhunter and instead they should make the warrior’s specialization an extension and alternative to what they are rather that something that’s completely different mechanically and thematically. So I wouldn’t go with “Sage” personally.

Valmir.4590:

So, as you can see, the basis for the Dragonhunter is already here.

The traits you listed have virtually nothing to do with hunting, traps, or dragons, despite your best attempts at making it seem like they do.

Indeed, I’d love a response.

I’d prefer the staff’s auto-attack to actually do something supportive instead of literally being a farming tool. In my eyes, the staff only has 4 skills.

It doesn’t play exactly the same as a ranger, but it’s trying very hard to. Hence “ranger wannabe”.

Nike.2631:

Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.

Maybe the ranger specialization should’ve removed or put less emphasis on pets (not that we know what druids can do) instead of making the guardian specialization a ranger wannabe.

Obtena.7952:

Templar.3418:

Fashion Mage.3712:

^
The mere fact that this name (and specialization) needs so much justification shows how bad it is.

+1

Actually, I bet EVERY profession elite special has such a justification. It’s just that we don’t see them. The fact that Jon came and explained this is NOT an indicator of how bad the name is.

Maybe they do, but either way people understood and liked the names given to reapers and chronomancers with no need for some bad attempt at justification.

It’s not supposed to be a power upgrade, but it’s still a ranger wannabe. Unsurprisingly, if I wanted to play a ranger, then I’d play a ranger.

I don’t want it to be an upgrade, I just think its design couldn’t be more bland and messy.

and where do they get the mobility to consistently switch between melee and range? A 60 second cooldown 600 range leap? According to the devs and the ready up, DH is “a big game hunter that specializes in ranged combat and back line support”.

Mar.4839:

Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.

I don’t recall any kind of witchhunters using traps in particular, nor do they hunt “big game”.

Walhalla.5473:

Ephemiel.5694:

I love how people keep ranking the Reaper as last, but are unable to even say a reason.

Yes but it is even funnier to see People setting the Dragonhunter as last out of 9 Specs without even knowing how the 6 other Specs are themed or working.

It’ll be hard to set a new low that’s as low as dragonhunters.

Arrk.4102:

1. Chronomancer
2. Reaper
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9. Dragon Hunter

And the name isn’t the only thing wrong with Dragonhunters.

phys.7689:

its looks like its supposed to go in and out of melee rng, as far as backline support, you got a long range light field with two 100% finishers for condi removal, light field itself
you got a lockdown area skill
you got projectile destruction+blind
long range vigor
targeted heal leap
that seems like some of the better support from long range

fragment of faith seems fairly useful to me (5 aegises)
blind heal trap

Ranged supportive abilities without some sort of large hitbox, large AoE, or bounce are typically impractical. This goes for light projectile finishers too, as far as I’m aware (does a light projectile finisher have an AoE?).

lockdown -> control. There’s a difference between control and support.
Using deflecting shot to protect allies is impractical (not that a barrier that short would be useful even if you did have perfect ping, and godly timing and aiming).
Long range vigor is the one practical, supportive thing on the longbow.
Wings of Resolve is a 600 range leap, not exactly backline. Supportively, it pales in comparison to Virtue of Resolve.
Blind heal trap only heals the user. Not that a single blind is impressive for something that’s supposedly supportive.

Sorry, but the longbow is not supportive. If you want to see something that has the potential to be supportive from a backline position you can look at the guardian’s staff (somewhat), tome of courage (this is the perfect example), consecrations, staff ele’s water attunement, chronomancers, etc.

creepmatic.9435:

@Fashion Mage

You keep saying support but everything from DPS, snares, CC and boons/healing is considered support. I think what you are asking for is more defensive support? But even you realize how ridiculous that sounds so you just say “support” instead.

Remember when you replied to me that the specialization is not suppose to be an upgrade to our current position and yet you ask for the same thing only on the defensive side which is already BUILT in in our core design. What do you want from guardian? Long Range healing?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Support
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

To put it simply, I want to play glassy support from range. I want to be as selfless as possible when it comes to support; that and close-range don’t mix well. I’m not asking for an upgrade, I’m asking for a different way to support, and that’s at range at the cost of self-defensive ability. A reverse glass staff ele, something glassy but whose supportive ability is so strong that they’d be focused first. If what I was hoping for came with the ability to also deal decent damage at range, I would be happy with that too, but unfortunately support isn’t a part of the DH package. That was lost when 90% of the longbow’s supportive ability was stripped along with the leaked longbow’s support stance.

RabbitUp.8294:

1. So, Reaper completely relies on pre-established fantasy tropes to even work. Now, if I told someone who knows what Necros do that their elite spec is called Reaper, would they conclude that it’s a GS-wielding Shouting spec?

2. One, they have one clearly time-related skill. It’s still completely seperated from the main idea of the class, and relies on a very minor aspect to draw a connection. A Moamancer would have been equally thematic for the class.

3. So story constraints don’t work for dragonhunters? We don’t even know how elite specs work, we might all need to rely on a mentor. I’m still forced to use Charr technology as the Engineer, I can be a non-Human, but no matter what, the Iron Legion came first and showed Tyria the way.

1. I expect a “reaper” to be a close-ranged melee character that uses a scythe. Reapers in this are a close-ranged melee specialization that use scythes as their profession mechanic.

2. Their wells literally have clocks spinning around on them, their profession mechanic turns back time, their shield’s abilities are obviously time-themed, alacrity is time themed, and they deal with a lot of stuff that involves speeding up allies and slowing down enemies in a variety of ways. The mesmer also already had Temporal Curtain and Time Warp.

3. Engineers don’t necessarily use Charr technology.

phys.7689:

The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.

lolno.

phys.7689:

i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.

It isn’t frontline or backline really. Speccing into dragonhunter heavily damages a guardian’s ability to support from the backline by changing their virtues. Their new virtues work better at close-range, and are generally much weaker supportively. Yet their longbow encourages them to stay at long-range (while providing virtually no support), and their traps can’t be ground-targeted (which, again, offer virtually no support) which encourages one to be closer to the action. So I don’t know what the spec is supposed to be or under which range it’s supposed to function, and the devs don’t seem to even know what role it’s supposed to be filling. Backline support? Please.

Ezeriel.9574:

What bizarro world is this?

Dragon Hunter fixes the guardian’s greatest area of weakness, long range.

Reaper offers necros nothing. No group buffs, no blast finishers, no mobility. Shortbow thieves, rangers, engineers, Dragon Knights… anything that can kite an undead skellie in Orr, will have nothing to fear from Reapers.

The traps work, they may not fit your theme of a guardian, but they are awesome. The shouts, necros got, will never be used.

Beyond pve melee aoe, the reaper has nothing to see.

Reapers apparently offer necros nothing and yet they are so many times more appealing than dragonhunters. Perhaps that’s because people are looking for something fun and interesting instead of something boring but powerful? It could also be because they’re not as worthless as you’re making them out to be.

^
The mere fact that this name (and specialization) needs so much justification shows how bad it is.

SlayerSixx.5763:

People crying about wanting to support even more than they’re already capable of confuse me. What do you want? Perma invuln for all of your team mates? Perma 25 stacks of might? Or how about random teleports? What about perma wards. Honestly. Guard has ENOUGH support options and when they finally tone cele down even more, I believe even bunker guards will make a reappearance competitively. We’ve sacrificed enough personal DPS in the name of support. You can STILL play your support guard if you want and rock the base changes really nicely. Also, iirc, the devs plan to stash away the tomes and add an elite shout and an elite signet with really powerful effects for all of your supporting needs.

People wanting to specialize further into support from a profession that is meant to primarily offer support confuses you? What do you think is the theme that drew people to this profession in the first place?
Do you think that the only guardians that exist are meditation guardians or something? Just because they’re the meta doesn’t mean that’s true, but ANet might think so since this spec is basically here just to cater to the flaws of meditation guardians, so that they can be perfectly rounded. The opposite of specialization, ironically.

We’ve “sacrificed enough DPS for support”, yet -if I recall correctly- we have one of the best levels of DPS in PvE, and it’s not like meditation guardians don’t do a lot of damage.

ANet considering removing tomes bothers me, and it should bother anyone interested in the idea of supporting from the backline as a guardian.

I feel the same way Cletis, and I was more-or-less expecting the same kind of elite spec that you were.
When the devs are calling DH a “backline support” spec, I think it says there’s something wrong; they don’t even realize that it’s just some messy fusion between a ranger-wannabe and a guardian. It feels like they’re still speaking about the leaked longbow skills that had an offensive stance and a support stance, but they forgot they removed the support stance and ruined virtues’ supportive ability.

Honestly, this spec deserves every bit of negativity it’s getting, and I’m seriously hoping it’s redesigned by a different designer, because the skill level between the designers of dragonhunters and chronomancers/reapers has become very apparent. Not holding my breath though.

Chronomancers are selfish? They basically allow mesmers to specialize into support. Dragonhunters just make guardians more selfish and more like jacks-of-all-trades. The amount of support in DH is minimal, which is what I have a problem with. DH was advertized as a ranged damage/backline support spec; in no way, shape, or form is this a backline support spec, nor does it even offer much support at all (probably takes away more support than it gives).
I don’t play a guardian to be a ranger-wannabe with a lot of control. I play a guardian to support, and I was hoping that the elite spec would allow me to support more from the backlines with less of an emphasis on self-defense and more of an emphasis on selfless glassy support. Instead I got this and ANet threatening to remove Tome of Courage.
I honestly hope this spec gets redesigned by a different designer, but I don’t have much faith in ANet at the moment.

Farzo.8410:

Sylent.3165:

Guardian was already in a great place.

This line is the bane of my existence.

+1

Vargamonth.2047:

snip

Doesn’t do much for support builds either (in fact it hurts support builds due to the virtues change).

Frankly, everything about dragonhunters doesn’t match up to Chronomancers and Reapers right down to their names. The difference in quality between the specializations is quite apparent to me.

Black Box.9312:

I just get the impression that Robert has a much better grasp on what players want with these specializations than Karl does. If the rest of the specs look more like the Reaper and Chronomancer, we’ll have been completely shafted.

It would appear so. I’m completely envious of necros and mesmers right now, I’m really hoping some major changes are made to the guardian’s spec (would be awesome if Robert took over, not holding my breath though). Their specializations appear to be both interesting and useful.

Obtena.7952:

To be fair, I don’t think the specs are only worked on by a single dev at every stage of their development. We’ve only seen three and let’s be honest, we are biased for Guardian. I think that Of the three we have seen, the goal for Mesmer and Necro was to bring them up to the baseline of the other professions. Guardians IMO were already at that baseline.

Well the point of elite specializations isn’t to provide a buff, so that was probably not their intention. For me that’s besides the point though, because even if the DH was amazingly strong, in my eyes it’s still a boring mess that lacks cohesion.
The point of elite specs was to allow one to focus (or “specialize”) into a single aspect. Chronomancers are a very good example of this, and allow mesmers to focus into support. The DH is the opposite, and offers a whole bunch of stuff which doesn’t fit together at all.

The only thing somewhat good about this spec is the bow (even then it could use some serious improvement). Everything else right down to the name is pretty bad in some way or another.

I don’t see them used frequently, but I’ve seen people use tomes in literally every mode (Tome of Courage typically appearing more often).

As a guardian main, I’m rather envious of mesmers and necros right now.

Bash.7291:

Farzo.8410:

There’s like 1 utility skill with the name “Dragon” in it, and then there’s like 2 – 3 traits out of 12 which is named “Dragon” something.

Clearly the theme was not thought out at all.

……. ok? I think this is sarcasm… i hope?

Oh please, not even ANet themselves understand what this mess of a specialization is supposed to be.

They gave guardians everything they lacked, and yet they forgot to add anything interesting. Calling it a “specialization” is also kind of ironic considering that this just makes certain guardian builds more well-rounded rather than more specialized.

Nike.2631:

ZoroDaOtter.3859:

Hmm…if this is added in, will the Tomes be removed the same patch?

Let’s reframe that question and see if it doesn’t answer itself…

“Hey, Arenanet, how about you have one and only one profession have FIVE elite skills to choose from until you get rid of the two old ones that don’t fit the new emphasis on unified utility skill types?”

Because there’s no chance the other 7 professions would explode into frothing rage .

Tomes could easily become consecrations or spirit weapons (more easily than completely replacing them with new skills), so that “unification” stuff is really just a non-issue.
People will always find something to complain about, such as “Why does only this profession get two new elites!?”, so that same logic applies in this as well.

I’d be okay with it if taking the spec didn’t also make your virtues more close-ranged and/or less supportive. Would be nice if that was toggleable or something.

Tman.6349:

support=/=healing. ‘back-line support’ is a complete term, not two separate descriptors. The DH has an excellent projectile mitigator, cripples, a long range are vigor, a long range aoe snare/ward type skill, raged blind, cripples, vulnerability, traps to set down to discourage ppl from rushing the back-liners (for what it’s worth), as well as pretty decent looking offensive support. That doesn’t even include another weapon set or other trait lines.

Control and zoning via damage abilities are not “backline support” or even just “support”. They have a ranged vigor ability and that’s basically it; using Deflecting Shot to protect allies looks about as practical as trying to shave with a brick. If you wanna see real ranged support, look at the staff, Tome of Courage, consecrations, or the support stance from the old leaked version of the longbow’s skills (which was essentially replaced by Deflecting Shot, yay).

Black Box.9312:

It seems like Anet is very wishy-washy about the spec in general, honestly. They want it to be a backline support, but they’re making the virtues less supportive, and they’re trying to justify an obviously divisive name for it by saying that it’s inspired by witch hunters who actively seek to purify evil by destroying dragons, but yet it’s still supposed to be supportive and stay in the backlines and let other people do the grunt work, but then they’re giving us traps that aren’t ground targeted that you can only drop right in front of you, even though you’re supposed to be on the backlines and also actively chasing the enemy to vanquish evil.

That’s why I’m pretty peeved about the whole thing. It’s very scatterbrained and just feels poorly planned out.

I couldn’t agree more. This spec is trying to be a lot of different things at once, and -ironically- despite the devs repeatedly referring to it as a “backline support” spec, that’s one of the things it definitely isn’t. To be honest, it doesn’t seem like the devs even realize what their own spec is supposed to be, hence why they call it “backline support”.

morrolan.9608:

Fashion Mage.3712:

What Blackbox said. The first thing I thought when reading about the elite spec was "It’s kind of ironic that this “backline spec” with a longbow is getting close-ranged virtues".

And non ground targeted traps.

I had just assumed the traps would be ground targeted when I read about the spec the first time. :p

Ragnarox.9601:

Cele ele – talking about broken things….

Well those are getting nerfed, so…

What Blackbox said. The first thing I thought when reading about the elite spec was "It’s kind of ironic that this “backline spec” with a longbow is getting close-ranged virtues".

Fudge.9527:

I’m also not comforted by the thought that tomes may return as a new specialization, when the current specialization and expansion is coming 3 years after launch. Rework tomes when that specialization is actually in development and not just some abstract, “that would be cool” idea jotted down on a notepad somewhere.

This, ANet please. The idea of the guardian’s next(?) specialization using tomes is amazing to me and I’m really excited for it (if it ever happens), but tomes should only be reworked at that point, not now and then players who love tomes are left with no tomes until 2-3 years later.

I’m curious if the changes are going to go through too, I wanna know if I should bother to keep playing or not.

If ToC is going to be dumbed down so that babies can use it, it should at least not become a signet. What about signets is supportive exactly? The most supportive signet is Signet of Mercy which is widely regarded as garbage. Is there even a huge demand for signet builds on guardians? Making Heal Area a spammable consecration elite would be nice (compared to the signet), doubt that’d happen though.
I feel that ToW should also be dumbed down differently.

creepmatic.9435:

1. Guardian =/= Healer
2. Guardian =/= Tank
3. Guardian already has built in group support by default in many of it’s traits AND the profession mechanic.
4. Support doesn’t stop at group healing only
5. Asking for a profession that has built in support to specialize in ranged healing is the dumbest thing I’ve heard.

Yeah, yeah, guardians are just dps meditation guardians.
4. It’s true, support doesn’t stop at group healing only, too bad the longbow barely offers any kind of support.
5. Get some reading comprehension before throwing out insults please, I asked for the longbow to cater to all kinds of guardians.

Vizardlorde.8243:

The leaked skillset was garbage if you wana play support play Honor/Virtues/X and youll have more than almost any other profession(ele excluded) cause base guard has support coming out of its kitten .

The new longbow is garbage, if you wanna play DPS play a meditation guardian. See? I can do it too. The point of the leaked skillset was that it allowed every kind of guardian to do what they do at range. Now offensive guardians are just better than ever (because being meta wasn’t enough apparently).

Here’s an idea: Change Tome of Courage/Wrath into signets/shouts/whatever-inappropriate-skill-type AFTER the tome elite spec gets released.

People who enjoy healers are usually a minority, it doesn’t make it okay to kitten on them though.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Fashion Mage.3712:

Water elementalists aren’t even that good at healing outside of WvW, and in PvP they’re better at bunkering than supporting their allies. I don’t want to wait 2-3 years for the next expansion to be able to use Tomes again.

It seems they intend to add new elite specs at a much faster pace than that. It might have taken them 2-3 years to add elite specs, but now that the foundation is there, it’ll probably come faster.

I’d really like to think that, but at this point I don’t have much faith in ANet, and they haven’t impressed me that much in the past few years either.