Guild Wars 2

So this is a reasonable build, but I’m going to have to dispute a couple of your claims and call attention to some pretty crazy statements.

expandas.7051:

Much of the direct damage from this build comes from the Mirror Blade and Phantasmal Berserker that you will be spewing out. Combined with the dueling grandmaster trait Triumphant Distortion, you will be inflicting tens of thousands of damage on an melee train.

This is simply not true. Maybe 10s of thousands of damage if you add up every hit from the aoe, but you’re looking at closer to 3k to an absolute maximum of 4k per person from a small burst like that.

Looking at your spreadsheet, you’re assuming 4 hits per target on the iZerker. This is really incorrect, as you’ll be getting 1-2 hits each. The iZerker retargets the aoe box for every tick of the spin, so as it moves through a zerg, it tends to hit different targets. This is wonderful for tagging…but less wonderful for trying to burst a single target. Additionally, you’re neglecting to consider the effect of protection, which a frontline will have generous amounts of when they clash.

Ok, next.

expandas.7051:

Damage mitigation comes primarily from Mimic.

Hold on, I must have misread that.

expandas.7051:

Damage mitigation comes primarily from Mimic.

…No, I read it right. All of my wat. Well, maybe the next bit will explain.

expandas.7051:

This incredibly utility, revamped last year, now allows for excellent survivability in large scale combat. Simply target the enemy driver and go to town.

Nope, no explanation here. So you first have to identify the enemy driver in a chaotic zerg (possible, but challenging). Then, you target the enemy driver with mimic, hope that they don’t dodge, hope that it doesn’t get obstructed or blinded. Then, hope that you manage to get a couple of boons that somehow provide excellent survivability in large scale combat?

I have absolutely no clue how you arrived at this conclusion. You’ll get, generously, a couple seconds of stability, maybe 5-8 seconds of protection, some regen, maybe a bit of retaliation, unlikely that you’ll copy an aegis, aaaand maybe a bit of might. So, what did you get out of all of that? Well, you’ve taken your incredibly squishy build and it’s now…still incredibly squishy. Protection won’t make a build with less than 2k armor and less than 16k hp survive to any sort of incoming damage. The only way you’re going to survive is by not getting hit, mimic is just a wasted spot on your bar.

Overall
This build is unbelievably squishy, and you have pretty much nothing keeping you alive aside from the inherent slipperyness that mesmer brings. This isn’t necessarily an awful thing, it’s just something to be aware of. The other thing to note is that you’re not going to be actually killing the enemy driver with this. There’s too much protection/healing/etc to actually take them out unilaterally. As a matter of fact, you really won’t be damaging the front line in any particularly harmful manner with this, and that’s just the nature of the beast.

On the other hand, you could do really nasty damage to the back line if you targeted them with this, and that’s what I usually use similar builds for. The iZerker is unique that it spawns right on target and does a load of damage really quickly, and sticks around to do it again if they’re not careful. This can decimate backlines, and that’s where I’d recommend you aiming this build.

Kain Francois.4328:

What uses do I have in PvE? Not just in dungeons, but in general PvE areas like Silverwastes.

Mesmer provides utility and moderate damage.

Kain Francois.4328:

Is there a particular reason to use a Mesmer, over something like a Guardian?

In dungeons? Yeah, mesmers have a ton of boon stripping that guardians don’t have. In silverwastes? Not a chance, guardian will be easier to play and generally more effective.

Kain Francois.4328:

I noticed our 1h-Sword damage is pretty weak… Or is it just me? How does our overall damage rank against other classes?

Mesmer personal damage is awful. We make this up for the damage produced by phantasms. This means that with 3 phantasms pumping out damage, mesmers can do extremely strong damage. Unfortunately, this also means that in content where phantasms are squished rapidly (99% of all ingame encounters) mesmers have poor damage.

Overall, mesmers are fine in dungeons. You combine a ton of utility all into one class. Mesmer can do mob control, condition removal, healing, boon stripping, and reflects all at the same time in the same build, while dealing okish damage (sorta).

Overall, mesmers are pretty awful in the open world. We’re slow without one of 2 particular rune sets, we do low long range damage, we don’t have good aoe options, and the utility that mesmers have is generally less useful in open world stuff.

DrDivine.5378:

Fay.2357:

DrDivine.5378:

Fay.2357:

DrDivine.5378:

Fay.2357:

Yeah, to add onto what chaos said…

Most of the time when you see people talking about ‘viable’ PvP builds, what they actually mean is ‘Helseth said this was viable on a stream, and I’m parroting Helseth’, when in reality viable is simply a function of what you can make work.

People have sworn up, down, right, left, and backwards that PU conditions is totally worthless in any type of PvP scenario. When I bothered PvPing, I played almost exclusively PU condie (power phant on khylo) and routinely hovered around rank 90 in solo queue and rank 150ish when soloing in team queue.

You make the build viable, not the other way around. If you can figure out how to play a build in such a way that makes it work, then it’s viable. If you can’t, then it’s not currently viable for you and you either need to get better at it, or find a different build. I’d recommend taking a look at my guide ‘A Mesmer’s Guide to Solo Queue’ (you can find it in the stickied build/guide list) for a more in-depth explanation of how to make something viable in PvP.

Is it ok if you look at my setup I commented above and take a look and see what I could change?

Looks pretty decent. I’d consider going sword/sword and taking the sword cd trait…or just taking the sword cd trait over the pistol trait regardless. Other than that, it seems pretty standard for an offensive phantasm build. You’ll need to be careful with thieves or other builds that can get up in your face and burst, but it should be pretty solid. It’ll ofc suffer from the standard set of problems that phantasm builds face: aoe pressure kills phantasms, so try to keep that in mind when casting, and summon them on targets outside of aoe blobs.

So this is a build thats pretty standard im guessing? What makes you choose s/s over pistol?

I like the swordsman better, I like having a block to help deal with thieves, and s/s allows you to make the sword cd trait do double duty.

I’ll try it out in the upcoming match then, my fear was that duelist did more damage than swordsman but I havent actually done the math yet lol

Swordsman will outdamage duelist after a couple attack cycles. It also attacks faster, making it hard to consistently dodge.

DrDivine.5378:

Fay.2357:

DrDivine.5378:

Fay.2357:

Yeah, to add onto what chaos said…

Most of the time when you see people talking about ‘viable’ PvP builds, what they actually mean is ‘Helseth said this was viable on a stream, and I’m parroting Helseth’, when in reality viable is simply a function of what you can make work.

People have sworn up, down, right, left, and backwards that PU conditions is totally worthless in any type of PvP scenario. When I bothered PvPing, I played almost exclusively PU condie (power phant on khylo) and routinely hovered around rank 90 in solo queue and rank 150ish when soloing in team queue.

You make the build viable, not the other way around. If you can figure out how to play a build in such a way that makes it work, then it’s viable. If you can’t, then it’s not currently viable for you and you either need to get better at it, or find a different build. I’d recommend taking a look at my guide ‘A Mesmer’s Guide to Solo Queue’ (you can find it in the stickied build/guide list) for a more in-depth explanation of how to make something viable in PvP.

Is it ok if you look at my setup I commented above and take a look and see what I could change?

Looks pretty decent. I’d consider going sword/sword and taking the sword cd trait…or just taking the sword cd trait over the pistol trait regardless. Other than that, it seems pretty standard for an offensive phantasm build. You’ll need to be careful with thieves or other builds that can get up in your face and burst, but it should be pretty solid. It’ll ofc suffer from the standard set of problems that phantasm builds face: aoe pressure kills phantasms, so try to keep that in mind when casting, and summon them on targets outside of aoe blobs.

So this is a build thats pretty standard im guessing? What makes you choose s/s over pistol?

I like the swordsman better, I like having a block to help deal with thieves, and s/s allows you to make the sword cd trait do double duty.

DrDivine.5378:

Fay.2357:

Yeah, to add onto what chaos said…

Most of the time when you see people talking about ‘viable’ PvP builds, what they actually mean is ‘Helseth said this was viable on a stream, and I’m parroting Helseth’, when in reality viable is simply a function of what you can make work.

People have sworn up, down, right, left, and backwards that PU conditions is totally worthless in any type of PvP scenario. When I bothered PvPing, I played almost exclusively PU condie (power phant on khylo) and routinely hovered around rank 90 in solo queue and rank 150ish when soloing in team queue.

You make the build viable, not the other way around. If you can figure out how to play a build in such a way that makes it work, then it’s viable. If you can’t, then it’s not currently viable for you and you either need to get better at it, or find a different build. I’d recommend taking a look at my guide ‘A Mesmer’s Guide to Solo Queue’ (you can find it in the stickied build/guide list) for a more in-depth explanation of how to make something viable in PvP.

Is it ok if you look at my setup I commented above and take a look and see what I could change?

Looks pretty decent. I’d consider going sword/sword and taking the sword cd trait…or just taking the sword cd trait over the pistol trait regardless. Other than that, it seems pretty standard for an offensive phantasm build. You’ll need to be careful with thieves or other builds that can get up in your face and burst, but it should be pretty solid. It’ll ofc suffer from the standard set of problems that phantasm builds face: aoe pressure kills phantasms, so try to keep that in mind when casting, and summon them on targets outside of aoe blobs.

Yeah, to add onto what chaos said…

Most of the time when you see people talking about ‘viable’ PvP builds, what they actually mean is ‘Helseth said this was viable on a stream, and I’m parroting Helseth’, when in reality viable is simply a function of what you can make work.

People have sworn up, down, right, left, and backwards that PU conditions is totally worthless in any type of PvP scenario. When I bothered PvPing, I played almost exclusively PU condie (power phant on khylo) and routinely hovered around rank 90 in solo queue and rank 150ish when soloing in team queue.

You make the build viable, not the other way around. If you can figure out how to play a build in such a way that makes it work, then it’s viable. If you can’t, then it’s not currently viable for you and you either need to get better at it, or find a different build. I’d recommend taking a look at my guide ‘A Mesmer’s Guide to Solo Queue’ (you can find it in the stickied build/guide list) for a more in-depth explanation of how to make something viable in PvP.

Syric.1936:

- Master Of Misdirection (33% confusion duration increase) vs. Confusing Cry (5 sec of Retaliation) remains up in the air for me. I’ve noticed some REALLY good reflected damage when Retaliation is up, but the 33% increase w/ confusion is what pushes my confusion damage up to 1.5k+ vs. 600-1.4k. Anyone have more data on this one? Thoughts? Opinions?

Honestly, retaliation isn’t that good on a single target. It’s just not. The amount of damage you obtain from retaliation is incredibly low compared to everything else, it’s only significant on a very few types of attacks, and it requires you to get hit multiple times in a reasonably squishy build. Master of misdirection is more worth it.

Syric.1936:

- Originally, I did not believe this build would hold up without condition removal.
-snip-

Basically, you’re making the gamble that many other offensive shatter builds make: My pressure is strong enough that I can force people into playing defensively and/or kill people before condition removal is a problem. Personally, I’m not willing to make that gamble, and so I run with condition removal in every build I use. That being said, it’s not an uncommon gamble to make, and it often works out just fine. You simply need to keep the fact in mind that you don’t have condition removal, and so if you get blindsided by any heavy condie class (think an engineer unloading a bunch of nades rapidly, or a necro smacking you with a signet of spite ++) you will simply keel over and die.

Syric.1936:

- Some feel I have displayed a narcissistic behavior, or ego, for posting my build and naming it.

You appear to be referencing my previous post. Let’s review that for a moment.

Fay.2357:

A name implies uniqueness, it implies that this is something new that hasn’t been seen before. It implies that it’s a special build that has enough relevance on its own to hold a name.

And

Fay.2357:

Slapping on a name without those conditions conveys either a sense of bloated self-importance or pure lack of knowledge/understanding about what is currently being used and explored in the game.

So, note that there’s two options given. One is the sense of bloated self-importance, the other is simply a lack of knowledge/understanding about what is currently being used an explored in this game.

Based on what you’ve said, I’m concluding that it’s the latter. You’re simply unaware that maim builds are very popular currently. Lots of people run them in game, lots of people theorycraft about them on the forums, lots of time and energy has been spent exploring them. That makes the build that you’ve posted nothing new, unique, special, or otherwise worthwhile naming and claiming.

As I also said, a good guide/set of advice/playstyle instructions is absolutely welcomed and appreciated, and this post contains that. Just keep in mind that this build itself is nothing new, and if you look around on the forums you’ll find immense amounts of discussion on exceedingly similar builds.

Syric.1936:

Tell ya what: find my a post of the build I shared, and I’ll gladly change the name to whatever that person named it. Win-win enough for ya?

That’s not really the point. Quite honestly, the era of named builds is pretty much over, as far as I’m concerned. Every facet of this class has been explored, tested, and explored again. While I won’t discount the possibility, however small, that there’s some unique build/playstyle out there that I and others haven’t thought of/considered/tested…it’s very very close to being the case. When there’s nothing new and unique, there’s no real reason to tag ideas with names.

Kit.1278:

frifox, Can u please give a link to “meta build”. Didnt play a lot of time, and want to see what is usefull now.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-How-To-Mesmer-in-Dungeons/page/4#post4702959

Bigbosos.2063:

Does “Sigil of Renewal” count towards the “Mender’s purity” talent? Or is it just for the “heal” skill?

Mender’s purity only works for the activation of the actual heal skill.

I think the main issue here is that you’ve come into this discussion with the pre-developed opinion of ‘honorable fighting is the way I like to play, and anything else is dishonorable’. Everyone else is coming in and pointing out how absurd that is.

‘Honor’ is obviously an abstract concept that means something different to everyone. That being said, trying to base complaints and discussion off an impressively blinkered view of honor is going to earn you a good bit of ridicule, as you may have noticed from this thread.

MailMail.6534:

Well duh Pyro, it’s a signet tank build, so you’d be using the signet heal. Since S. Heal is necessary in this iteration of a tank, do you still think sword is better even with less clone production?

Yeah, it is.

1. It has boonstrip, so that’s something.
2. Just sorta think about the damage mitigation. You’ve got 1 bit from scepter, or all incoming damage for 2.5 seconds. If used appropriately, that’s close to what the signet output in 20 seconds of 3 clone healing.

Additonally, the scepter isn’t actually good at making clones. You have to sit there spam in an autoattack with an animation almost as brutally slow as a hammer guardian, hoping that you don’t need to do anything between now and 4s later when the clone lands. The scepter auto produces clones only marginally faster than spam in phase retreat traited for cooldown.

When you say ‘sniping down’ do you actually mean sniping, or do you mean ‘someone approached him and then got deleted at close range’?

Actual sniping points me towards 6/6/w.e mantra nuker. Close range deletion is a shatter (or phantasm I guess) build.

When I’m dueling using a non-PU condition build against a good shatter Mesmer, I’ll actually use sword instead of scepter even though I lose so much pressure. The key is that the block is simply non-functional as a defensive skill against any multi-hit damage. In the case of a shatter Mesmer, that’s the shatters. In the case of a bunker build, that’s the…everything.

Not having enough clones isn’t really actually a problem generally. I guess if you’re using the signet heal then it becomes a massive problem, and that’s one of the reasons I avoid that heal if I’m doing a bunker build.

MailMail.6534:

-snip-

What you said, with the addition of:

You absolutely should be using sword, not scepter. Scepter is a ranged condition weapon used for the fantastic torment burst from the block and the decent condition pressure from other skills.

Sword is a weapon with an unbelievably strong defensive skill on a low cooldown, and an immobilize/leap finisher/stunbreak.

For a full tank build, there’s simply no better option than the sword.

MailMail.6534:

In general, it’s my opinion that signet heal is better than Ether for all phantasm builds, and especially builds that utilize iDefender or iDisenchanter.

While it’s potentially arguable to be the case in an offensive phantasm build (It still turns your build into an absolute 1-trick pony that can be punished severely), it doesn’t hold true for a tank build.

Remember that for a tank build, your primary concern is staying alive. The defender is just such an underwhelming phantasm for a tank build in a normal PvP point defense environment. I mentioned that I only use a tank build in spirit watch for orb running. This means that I’m constantly mobile, moving out of aoes/pressure and using the defender for additional damage reduction and overall sustain.

For a point defense, the defender squishes within seconds of casting it, and that’s really not an exaggeration. There’s so much aoe pressure on the point that the defender basically dies from a combination of eating all the random aoe hits AND eating all the random aoe hits that every nearby ally takes. It’s basically useless, even with the signet and phantasm hp trait boosting the health it has.

So overall, what are you getting from the signet in this build? The pDefender is essentially useless in a point-control environment, and that’s one of the biggest reasons that nobody ever uses it. It’s handy and even fantastic in a mobile fight where you and it can avoid strong pressure, but on a point…it’s just a wasted utility on your bar that could contain some stunbreak or condition removal or whatever. With the pDefender being awful…that makes the signet awful as well. In a mobile fight where the defender is good…you still don’t want that refresh super often in a tank build. It’s far more valuable to have consistent healing output that’s not tied to having illusions up 24/7…because you’re not taking DE in a tank build. No DE = no 24/7 3 illusions, and that makes the signet absolute trash.

Bigbosos.2063:

In your calculations did you also consider the active healing that the signet grants?

Active healing is tiny and puts the signet on a 35(28) second cooldown where zero healing is provided. The pure passive effect is significantly worse than ether feast, actually activating the signet puts you far far below it.

Bigbosos.2063:

Anyway no need to redo them again, but if you have a link available I’d be glad to read them. Btw, one of the arguments for having signet of ether, was the 3x condition cleanse on activation.

I really have no idea when the last time I did the calculations were, I’m not sure how far buried in this forum it would be. As far as the condition removal goes, taking that trait is an awful idea. Your only other signet is signet of illusions, which you should not be activating at any point ever. Additionally, that trait shares a spot with Chaotic Dampening, which would reduce all of your staff cooldowns by 20% and increase your toughness. The gain you get from that trait is massive by comparison.

Bigbosos.2063:

On a side note:

Now, the additional argument can be made that the phantasm refresh is worth the far lower healing.

I’m sorry, I didn’t get this point: which phantasm refresh are you talking about?

The active of signet of the ether instantly refreshes the cooldowns of all of your phantasm skills…I figured that’s one of the reasons you took it.

MailMail.6534:

Bigbosos.2063:

First, signet of the ether is an awful choice

I found the passive healing from it to be quite strong, combined with regeneration. Is it really so bad?

No it’s not. Pyro and I are going to argue in this thread. “I feel it in my bones.”

This is a simple math-based statement of fact.

The passive healing from the signet is far less than the healing you obtain from ether feast.

I can go through and post a whole bunch of math if you really want me to, but I’ve done this before multiple times. This is not something that can actually be argued. Ether feast is far stronger healing output than any other heal we have.

Now, the additional argument can be made that the phantasm refresh is worth the far lower healing. This is a different thing with different arguments though. The healing amount is not an argument, it is math.

A couple notes.

First, signet of the ether is an awful choice. Since this is a tank build, the healing skill should be chosen based on raw maximum heal output. Ether feast blows every other heal out of the water in this way. There’s literally not a single valid use for signet of the ether in PvP, it’s just awful.

Overall, I’ve found a tank build to be underwhelming most of the time unless I’m on spirit watch running the orb. It’s just…not great. Maybe if you have a coordinated team working around you as the tank, but as one guy tanking it up…you really can’t do much.

frifox.5283:

The might behavior is correct as you say but Fury affecting illusions is new to me. Afaik when I tried a year ago or so it didn’t. Of course I may have simply remembered my tests incorrectly, it really has been quite a while, but I’ll double check it tonight to be sure.

The trait phantasmal fury wouldn’t function if fury on illusions didn’t work.

frifox.5283:

Applies:

• Power
• Precision
• Ferocity
• Condition Damage
• Condition Duration
• Boon Duration
• Toughness
• Healing Power

Doesn’t apply:

• Accuracy
• Critical Damage
• Vitality
• Might (on illusion)
• Fury (on illusions)

I have also noticed while playing with torch that Mage confusion duration isn’t as long as I was expecting it so there may be a bug where Confusion Duration or even some Condition Duration from some sources doesn’t get applied to phantasms. Will need to spend some time tracking that down.

Almost right frifox.

Might on the mesmer applies to illusions. Might on the illusions does nothing.

Fury on the illusions applies properly to the illusions. Fury on the mesmer does nothing for illusions.

Well, this build is remarkably close to some of the actual min-maxed dungeon builds that exist. The main differences is that dungeon builds will almost never use greatsword. Now and then it’s appropriate, but the damage on greatsword is so low that it’s generally not worth using over 2x mainhand sword.

As far as condition removal goes, it’s nice to have at least a bit. I’ll often take the mantra just because there’s a lot of mobs that do use conditions. Even if the conditions aren’t dangerous, it’s nice to just cleanse that 1.5 minutes of cripple that something slapped on you instead of having to wait it out.

@OP: I’d recommend taking a look at the stickied thread ‘how to mesmer in dungeons’. You’ll see that a lot of the builds there are similar to yours, but slightly more min-maxed for optimization, if that’s what your goal is.

StickerHappy.8052:

And anyone bashing the naming, dont be a jerk, names make a build unique on its own way, so making that part as your own. I mean what the fak is wrong with naming a build?

That’s sorta the point though. A name implies uniqueness, it implies that this is something new that hasn’t been seen before. It implies that it’s a special build that has enough relevance on its own to hold a name.

The build posted here fits none of those conditions. It’s not a unique build, it’s not something new that hasn’t been seen before. It’s not special or significantly relevant. Slapping on a name without those conditions conveys either a sense of bloated self-importance or pure lack of knowledge/understanding about what is currently being used and explored in the game.

By all means, post detailed playstyle guides, advice, instructions, w/e…but when you post a build and name it as your own, you’d better expect people to balk unless it’s something that truly can be counted as special and yours.

Edit: Let me be a little more clear with what I mean, just in case I wasn’t clear enough.

Syric.1936:

I’m thrilled and excited to announce that I’ve created a devastating sPvP/tPvP build

This is the bit that people are balking at. That sentence portrays this build as new, unique, meta-changing, objectively important, etc, etc. It’s none of those things, it’s simply another maim build.

I’m going to have to break this down by PvP and PvE:

PvP

Signet of the Ether
This heal is trash in PvP. I’ve explained why more times than I can count.

Mimic
lol

Mirror
Unless I’m abusing the fact that it reflects during the channel and can be canceled for a shorter cooldown, it’s just not worth the tiny amount of healing it provides.

Arcane Thievery
kitten cd skill that does what exactly? Boon steal…but can be dodged/blinded and honestly, we’ve got boon rips out the wazoo. There’s no need for this. It’s an awful condition removal too, kitten cd for 3 conditions that is conditional on not being dodged? No thank you.

Illusion of Life
It’s just not worth it. Regardless of how clutch it can be, the cooldown just makes it not worth taking.

pDefender
Yeah, once upon a time this had a use. Strictly speaking I’ll use this in my spirit watch tanky orb running build but…eh.

Signets
The issue with signets is that they’re all super duper ultra niche or rarely useable. Each one has a really specific situation where it’s useful…but overall they’re just awful.

Moa
Long cooldown, meh effect, easily dodged/blocked/blinded/interrupted. I’ll pass.

PvE

Mirror
You really really never need this in PvE.

Mimic
lol

Mirror Images
Shatter in PvE? No thanks.

Arcane Thievery
Meh. Same reasons as for PvP. It’s just not good.

IoL
If you need this in PvE, something has gone horribly wrong.

Signet of Domination
This really has no use in PvE.

Signet of Midnight
This also really has no use in PvE.

Moa
Other than moaing the jade maw tentacles for fun…

TranquilInSpirit.6291:

Something to keep in mind is that iWarden only reflects while the whirl is going. It used to do it regardless but that’s the case now. If you want to use it to actively reflect, keep that in mind.

No, the warden has always only reflected during the duration of the whirl.

If you’re in a Zerg, you should have permanent swiftness if the people in the Zerg are anything approaching competent. This makes traveler runes an absolute and total waste. Almost anything would be better

Better options include pack, ranger, strength, scholar, eagle, air, probably others I’m not thinking of right now.

Zyxith.9328:

Yeah, I’m level 80. Still, my question remains. What stats for my armour/weapons?

Does Shatter or Phantasms really have that different styles that I’d not be able to just have one set of armour? I mainly just want to know what stats for my gear using those weapons would be best. Even a list of possible options.

For any and all PvE content, zerker/assassins armor is best, generally speaking.

If you’re intending on actually doing stuff like soloing dungeons, then you may actually want rabid gear for a condition build, but that’s pretty particular.

Swish.2463:

Will probably run better and be more interesting whenever Sinister Armor hits sPvP.

Until then it looks interesting , but lets stop trying to name our builds, thats such a 2012 thing to do..

We’ve got Shatter builds, Phantasm builds, and PU builds, Clone death and Condition and Interrupt/Lockdown builds.. And so many builds that are just 1 trait off from one another that trying to Name and claim originality… would just make it confusing

This is pretty true, the only truly unique builds are the ones that no longer exist due to various anet nerfbats…

So aside from the obvious stuff that alanis mentioned about this being just basically a run-of-the-mill maim build…

Syric.1936:

Also, now you see where I came up w/ the CBT part of this build’s name.

Plausible deniability is good, but don’t think you’re actually fooling us

Riesenschnauzer.6049:

OK, So ultimately this has to do with the power of the Main Hand auto attack and the cleave.

So would

Sword/Focus
+
Sword/Pistol

Be a viable Open World PVE build?

I know that I’m leaving some DPS on the table, however I also know that Sword Offhand would further complicate things for a new mesmer (me), as the “number 4” skill auto generates a clone, potential replacing a phantasm.

For open world, I’d recommend sword/focus + greatsword. The double-melee is great when you’re in a party, on a boss, and pumping out damage. For the open world, you want the versatility and range that the greatsword provides.

The reason for mainhand sword: Autoattacks with the sword are higher dps than anything on any other weapon. Additionally, blurred frenzy is a fantastic evade that deals damage.

The reason for offhand sword: Offhand sword phantasm is the highest dps phantasm in the game.

TyPin.9860:

Well… I find this kind of play style still honorless. Valid as it may be, clever as it may be. It still lets the AI do the main work.

So….if this type of playstyle is honorless, what type of playstyle is honor-full? Standing toe to toe trading autoattacks? I’d recommend you go play a warrior if that’s your sort of thing.

Well, focus is a staple weapon of dungeon builds due to the aoe and utility it provides. Staff is used in maybe one or two really niche situations. Scepter is used even less, and torch is used only if you need a bit of extra stealth during a skip.

Now, I’m curious as to why you’re fixated on celestial trinkets. I’m going to tell you right now, while you obviously can use them in whatever build, they’re not going to be good in literally any build that mesmer has for absolutely anything in this game. They simple aren’t. For a condition build you want rabid/dire. For a power build you want zerker. For a tankier WvW build you want knights/cavaliers/valkyrie. Basically, celestial trinkets are just better than awful for every mesmer build.

Gilgamesh.1025:

I wonder if this down-leveling cause another class’s traits problems as well. They really need to fix this. Not a huge problem, but it is still a problem.

Necros using ‘flesh of the master’ will have all of their minions commit suicide if they get downleveled.

NaotsuguLH.8915:

Fay.2357:

The reason you couldn’t find a PvE condition build is because condition builds are absolutely awful in PvE unless you’re soloing a dungeon. Your build is particularly bad because it’s a maim build that doesn’t have DE, which doesn’t work even a little bit.

If you’d like to use a maim/condition build in PvP, there are several discussions about those on these forums, along with quite a few builds in the build list for them. If you’d like to use a condition build in PvE, don’t.

so how would you restructure it for PvP/WvW?

Well, you need to decide if you want to run it as a clone death build or a shatter build. One uses the dissipation traits to apply conditions, and the other uses maim shatters. However, regardless of which direction you choose, 4 points in dueling to obtain DE is absolutely required. Unfortunately for mesmer, unless you’re doing a full phantasm build, DE is simply not an optional trait. If you don’t have it, the build won’t even remotely function.

The reason you couldn’t find a PvE condition build is because condition builds are absolutely awful in PvE unless you’re soloing a dungeon. Your build is particularly bad because it’s a maim build that doesn’t have DE, which doesn’t work even a little bit.

If you’d like to use a maim/condition build in PvP, there are several discussions about those on these forums, along with quite a few builds in the build list for them. If you’d like to use a condition build in PvE, don’t.

Gilgamesh.1025:

I was just trying out some new builds. I have never play mantra and wanna try it out.

I don’t know if this is how it works. I took Harmonious Mantra (it gives me an extra mantra output).

It works fine when I am in battle. I see the 3. When I am running around the world and having my mantra charge, somehow, that 3 just turn into a 2. I did not use any charge. I was just running around. So, that extra charge given by Harmonious Mantra have a timer on it?

It doesn’t have a timer, it’s just broken. It randomly loses the charge now and then, along with losing the charge whenever you get downleveled, change how downleveled you are, or load a new zone iirc.

Carighan.6758:

Current balance is far from bad, so I don’t truly see the point. I’d prefer them to try much more sweeping balance changes at a weekly pace, but I reckon the sPvP crowd would die from a heart attack 5 weeks in, at best. So I can see why they may not want to do that.

Current balance is also far from good. I mean, there’s only 1-2 viable builds per class in a game that has incredibly extensive options for character customization. Despite the small might nerf, celestial builds are still somewhat out of line, although better than before.

Carighan.6758:

But overall balance is really good, so dunno. But there’s a differentiation, the balance team seems to be doing ok, while whoever is responsible for skills is just sitting around doing nothing because there’s so many undertuned / overtuned skills and traits which aren’t getting any touches in 2+ years (which is weird).

Skills and balance. 1 team. Remember that this is the team responsible for the wonderful new grandmaster traits that are literally worse than what would happen if you picked 3 completely random effects and triggers and slapped them together on a trait.

Although the most recent balance patch did some sensible things like toning down might, I’m not yet willing to assume it’s a result of the balance team actually having a clue. That benefit of the doubt was lost long ago. Until this sort of sensible balancing becomes the norm, I’m going to attribute it to the ‘A broken clock is still right twice a day’ effect.

Recall that in this same patch that toned down might, they also made kill shot cast faster than our utility phantasms, and buffed completely random aspects of our skills in the blind hopes that it would somehow get us to stop complaining about how bad they are.

Dadnir.5038:

Back in the past when confusion damage weren’t nerfed in PvP / WvW there was a build that was destroying absolutely every other classes thanks to confusion. The build was abusing a synergy between “blinding befuddlement” (which hadn’t any ICD) and “Dazzling glamours”. Well that was back in the good old days…

Uh, no. Haha, no.

Glamour builds were quite strong against large groups, but to say that it was ‘destroying absolutely every other class thanks to confusion’ is hilariously wrong. Glamour builds were absolute trash for anything less than an engagement consisting at least 10 players on each side.

On a different note, the title of this thread is clickbait worthy of a ’ 10 SECRETS YOUR DOCTOR DOESN’T WANT YOU TO KNOW! ’ ad…

Windwalker.7421:

I think it’s safe to say that ANet will ensure that every professions gains a viable new weapon & build combo with this, otherwise they would shoot themselves in the foot financially.

I think it’s incredibly optimistic to assume anything approaching competence from the skills and balance team.

I think we should hope for a viable new weapon. I think we should absolutely not expect a viable new weapons.

pupi.2465:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsfRl0npRtlpxGNcrRipxYqeOVVkMgDK9IjvAA

You guys think this could work?

No, not really. That build doesn’t really have any idea what it’s doing. There’s no coherent thought process behind how you want to deal damage, survive, or really accomplish anything in particular.

shimmerless.4560:

Fay.2357:

Elitist.8701:

If they dodge steal at all the matchup goes into the mesmer’s favor, assuming they’re lucky of course.

Fixed that one slightly for you.

That being said, you are accurate in that thieves do have vulnerable windows. The key is just that a good thief minimizes those windows drastically, and so certain mesmer builds are much more effective at taking advantage of them. Shatter builds are not good at it.

Shatter is quite capable of taking advantage of said vulnerabilities. Strictly speaking 1 v. 1 isn’t the reason shatter has issues dealing with Thieves in tPvP.

Shatter can do it, but you need to fully devote your attention and resources towards doing so, and that means (to me) that it’s not really good at it. Other builds can do it without needing to focus entirely on the thief.

This is just a pretty run-of-the-mill maim build. If you look around, you’ll see quite a few similar variations of this build posted and discussed on the forums. This isn’t really anything new/unique/special, I’m afraid.

With regards to sigils, usually you’ll get more mileage out of doom sigils than bursting sigils, as the pressure and utility from poison outweighs the slightly higher ConD of bursting.

Xyonon.3987:

Got a quick question here, if you use condi in wvw or solo pve, what stats do you use for your equipment?

WvW and PvE are going to have slightly different optimal answers here.

Xyonon.3987:

• condi dmg > precision = toughness (vulnerable to condi due less hp, better heal due low hp and armor, 50% crit chance for bleed procs by crits)

This is rabid gear. A mix of this and dire (Cond, vit, tough) is what is optimal in WvW. Rabid gear is wonderfully tanky, and a bit of dire provides a good amount of vit to boost your health to a good level. The precision in rabid is absolutely essential to any viable condition build for both sharper images and vigor procs.

Xyonon.3987:

• condi dmg > vitality = power (less heal due high hp pool and low armor, more personal damage, not so vulnerable against condis)

This is carrion gear. It is worthless on a mesmer. Never use it.

The main PvE option not mentioned here is Sinister stats. This is Condition damage, precision, and power. Sinister is squishy like zerker, but condition style. This makes it a poor choice for WvW where thieves or…anything really will eat you. However, it provides you with the maximum potential damage output for solo PvE. That being said, being squishy when trying to solo a champ or w/e is also potentially not the greatest idea, so unless you’re playing almost perfectly, Rabid may be the better option for PvE as well.

Xyonon.3987:

and do you use givers weapons? they lack of condi dmg, but 20% condi dura seems quite amazing :S help

The condition duration is nice…but mostly unecessary. You can easily get permanent burning without it, so that’s not important. You can also reach 25 bleed stacks with a little bit of luck and just 40% food and 20 in domination. Ultimately, you lose a ton of condition damage by taking givers weapons, and it’s just not worth it for the small stack increases you obtain.

Ok, so this is a several part question.

Clones and offhands

When the game launched, and for about a year and a half after launch, clones used no offhand weapon. This was something that people complained about quite a lot, since not only does it not look good…it’s also an easy way to differentiate between clones and the mesmer. After about a year and a half, they fixed it.

…and then they broke it again with the most recent feature patch. I haven’t seen much complaining about it anymore because I think most mesmers have just resigned themselves to the fact that the dev team is astonishingly incapable of handling even the simplest coding in a professional and capable manner.

Clone Attacks

Now, where you’re a bit misinformed/mislead is in what the clones actually do. All weapon clones do 1 thing and 1 thing only: Use the autoattack from the weapon that produced them. This means that sword clones will simply do the sword autoattack animation, that’s all. If they weren’t bugged and actually held two swords, they’d still do the same animation…just holding two swords while they do it.

Attack Animations

Your attacks come from the weapon that produces them. Mainhand sword is in your right hand, offhand is in the left hand. Mainhand sword has skills 1, 2, and 3 on your bar. Using those skills will cause you to use your mainhand sword. Offhand sword has skills 4 and 5 on the bar, and using those skills will produce an animation from your offhand sword.

Elitist.8701:

If they dodge steal at all the matchup goes into the mesmer’s favor, assuming they’re lucky of course.

Fixed that one slightly for you.

That being said, you are accurate in that thieves do have vulnerable windows. The key is just that a good thief minimizes those windows drastically, and so certain mesmer builds are much more effective at taking advantage of them. Shatter builds are not good at it.

Yeah, I’ll reiterate that in a slightly more succinct fashion. The vast majority of mesmer builds will be either 100% non-functional or extremely close to non-functional until you hit 80. Don’t worry about trying to make any builds work until you hit 80, don’t go WvWing until you hit 80 because you’ll be a liability to your side and won’t be able to fight, just focus all of your energy on powering through the unbelievably awful chore that is leveling a mesmer.

Once you get to 80, you can revisit all of this.

There are some general qualities of builds that do well against thieves. I’ll point out some builds first and then mention what those qualities are.

PU condition builds are close to a hardcounter against thieves. Condition shatter builds also do very well. Standard lockdown builds aren’t great, but phantasm builds that incorporate lockdown (such as Ross’) do quite well. Standard glassy phantasm builds can also work; though they’re more of a risky idea.

Condition builds are generally strong against thieves. A lot of the more glassy thief builds tend to neglect condition removal in favor of more damage and mobility. If you can load them with conditions, they’ll die.

Passive defense and sustain is a great counter to thieves. If they can’t burst you down right away, they lose a huge amount of the standard advantage that they count on, allowing you to coordinate a defense and offense against them.

Consistently strong pressure is a great way to put a thief on the defensive. Mesmer can accomplish this really well with phantasms. Having applied that pressure, the Mesmer can then follow up with control (interrupts) to keep the thief evading and help the phantasms land hits.

PU conditions combines strong condition pressure with strong passive defense and sustain. Shatter condition builds have better passive defense than standard shatter due to the amulet choice, and that condition pressure can melt a thief quickly. Phantasm builds allow you to effortlessly apply pressure while focusing on either controlling the thief or avoidance with active defense.

For general open world stuff, the most effective build is going to be something along the lines of gs+sw/focus with general phantasm traits. You’ll be looking at a trait set of something like 2/4/0/5/3 or 4/4/0/6 or something else along those lines.

The idea that anet is going to implement something that actually removes prior options is patently absurd. They are adding specializations. All that you need to know is contained within the name itself.

When something specializes, what happens? It focuses more on one aspect of something to the exclusion of other aspects.

How does this relate to GW2? Well, taking the specialization will mean you won’t be able to take all the things you took previously. You only have so many trait points, so many utility slots, a heal, and an elite. If you fill up all those slots with stuff from your specialization, you obviously can’t take things that you took before. Anet isn’t removing the options, they’re simply adding new options that you may or may not choose to take.

Seyiwaji.4082:

Does the Clone sword combo last hit remove boons?

Yes.