Guild Wars 2

Phunk.6103:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

VOTF Please keep this up. The change to the arrow carts sucks.

My guild is having exactly 9 billion % less fun in wvw.

Also before some idiot replys with ‘stop zerging’ My guild fields 20 when im on usually, we run private comms and tell pugs to leave us the kitten alone. 20 people taking 1 tower? sure give me 19 trebs and 12 hours. I’ll get it down eventually.

QQ

SoR took Stonemist from Blackgate tonight in under 30 minutes in spite of them having tons of ACs.

Please explain this, given the current hysteria surrounding arrow carts.

Probably because BG are 40k ahead of SoR…and SoR pose no threat…

So because we’re not a threat, their arrow carts couldn’t hurt us? Because the rather prodigious number of Blackgate defenders were really spamming the heck outta those arrow carts, and yet…

Loken.9724:

VOTF Please keep this up. The change to the arrow carts sucks.

My guild is having exactly 9 billion % less fun in wvw.

Also before some idiot replys with ‘stop zerging’ My guild fields 20 when im on usually, we run private comms and tell pugs to leave us the kitten alone. 20 people taking 1 tower? sure give me 19 trebs and 12 hours. I’ll get it down eventually.

QQ

SoR took Stonemist from Blackgate tonight in under 30 minutes in spite of them having tons of ACs.

Please explain this, given the current hysteria surrounding arrow carts.

I have video of myself and about 20 SoR on Blackgate’s BL assaulting Sunny, or whatever it’s called on that map. I’ll be posting it soon as I trim the chat window out (no reason to let anyone see some of the mean-spirited stuff being said), but I hope you enjoy the sight of my Engineer standing in the overlapping arrow cart circles and never going below half health. Revel in the sight of me rezzing someone as the ACs and the defenders on the cliff behind me shoot me without killing me.

Then, dear VoTF, I shall sit back and await your savant explanation of how these overpowered arrow carts failed to kill me or “melt” our large group…even when we were just standing there.

Heijincks.9267:

So sorry. It’s unlikely WvW will go back to the way it was. It’s natural selection at work here. Adapt, or be gone.

I vote “be gone”. They obviously can’t cope.

Jackie.1829:

Mif.3471:

Jackie.1829:

As my posts are within the terms of agreement, and those of other votf members such as lance and caliban,

Then on the other hand, there are the VoTF members that had a tantrum and vandalized this sub-forum with spam threads earlier today.

Stay classy VoTF

I endorse what they did as well. In fact, I was on comms laughing with them while they did it. We will do what we want with the forums until a developer responds. I am sorry I adversely effected your web browsing for the night. Except I couldnt care less.

“We will do what we want with the forums until a developer responds.”

Well I was pretty much out of this thread because I thought it was simply a divergence of opinions between myself (who has actually played the game since the patch) and others who, quite obviously, had not. I figured given the time, they would play and realize how wrong they were. NOW I find out it’s a collective hissy fit by some nobody guild, and they even admit it.

Really? Then I will ridicule you and your obvious lack of WvW prowess at every turn. My server’s still able to capture keeps and towers; arrow carts cannot stop us.

I guess you’re just not as good as us.

As of 9:02 PM, SoR has captured Klovan as well. Lotsa ACs died, not so many of us, oddly.

This just in; at precisely 8:17 EST, SoR captured Stonemist in EB despite ferocious opposition by Blackgate. Many brave arrow carts died in the heroic defense, but oddly enough we took that kittene anyway.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Jski.6180:

If you have 50 ppl standing still and not attking the carts them self i think they should die and not be able to take a keep. Do you think attking should be a guaranteed win? If any thing this IS the zerg counter that every one has been asking for.

How many of those 50 have means to be attacking properly positioned carts?

All of them. Back away from the gate, build a treb, destroy the arrow carts, return to the gate, build your rams, capture the tower, and carry on as usual. Your unwillingness to change your tactics in the face of the patch does not mean the patch is broken. It simply means you refuse to adapt and learn new tactics for accomplishing your goal.

And before you or anyone responds, “But we can’t reach every cart with treb fire! It’s impossible! AC is so OP!!!”, let me stop you right there. Any comment to that effect tells me immediately that the responder’s definition of a siege is to spam auto-attack at the gate and doesn’t know how to use anything other than a ram.

Learn to use the tools available to you. Practice setting up some siege weapons, test their ranges, test their firing arcs, test their blast radius, and discover their ideal placement. Do these things, and you can reach any location that a defender could build an AC that presents a threat to you.

Refuse to do these things by claiming it takes too long or is boring doesn’t equal a broken mechanic. It equals a player who is unwilling to adapt, change, or learn and unwilling to accept that their previous strategy won’t work anymore or won’t work as effectively as it once did.

I know I said I was leaving the thread but could not resist. Marry me.

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

Lance.5892:

Johje Holan.4607:

It doesn’t actually seem that powerful to me. The most I was hitting for on a regular AC with no mastery was 1245. But mostly in the mid triple digits.

And to tell you the truth, I saw a lot of offensive AC’s too.

And the zergs in my match actually split up last night! It was fun.

http://imgur.com/w0LVRTA

1) try a superior
2) factor in wxp rank ac upgrades

This only encourages me to get 100 people to zerg a single tower. The 2 people on sup AC’s can’t possibly kill all 100 before we get the gate down…

…and while you do that, we’ll take the rest of the map. There’s a price to pay for everything.

With how many people? 2 people in those towers with AC’s will be able to hold you off… starting to see the problem? Probably not…

Firstly; two people in a tower with ACs will slow down 100 attackers for about…15, 20 seconds? I get that you were exaggerating to make a point (I hope you were; you’re not really so bad your 100 attackers can’t steamroll a tower with 2 defenders in under 60 seconds, are you?), but try to keep the scale even moderately realistic.

Secondly: two people with ACs in a tower can hold off 10 people, maximum…as long as said 10 people are not stupid enough to try and ram the gate down. If, however, said 10 people build 2 catas and aim them at the gate or the wall, the two people in the tower with arrow carts are pretty boned.

Ok so Superior arrowcarts have a limit of 50 people(?) and for sake of arguement (seen hits for 2.5k and 1.8k) that it hits 2k per hit (1s) now with 2 arrowcarts thats 4k per second for 50 people provided they are “zerging” and facerubbing a door.

Over 10 seconds that is a total of 40,000 damage (20,000 per arrowcart) for 50 people. Now take into account the healing/regen/waterfields that people are able to blow off, it is realistically impossible to sustain a 20,000 healing amount per 10 seconds for any group let alone 40,000 healing per 10 seconds. Factor in a 33% damage reduction from protection and you still realistically wouldnt be able to do it.

That is 2 pieces of siege holding off 50 people.

Now we come to your response which is “DONT FACERUB THE GATE HURR” “TREB” “RAM” “CATA” and so on and so forth and around in circles we go.

I will point this out one last time; math on a message board does not equal experiential results. I play in T1 with massive amounts of people on either side of these fights, and I’ve been in lots of keep defenses and sieges since the patch. None of the horrible bloody disasters you are describing are happening. I will say it again; you may be writing about it here, but it is not happening out there. It’s just not. Keeps are flipping, towers are flipping, camps are being taken and open field fights are happening galore.

You know what? Heh…that pretty much talks me out of this whole debate. I’m sure it will please you and others no end to see me withdraw from the thread, but I don’t see the point anymore. I’m not saying all these things because “I just gotta be RIGHT, kitten ”; I’m saying all these things because I see it, fight after fight after fight. Arrow carts needed a buff. The change is good, and workable (with a caveat for those servers in highly unbalanced population situations as was pointed out by Ruprecht).

Enjoy the good fights. I know I will.

graverr.6473:

Defenders should ubstantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.

The rest of your post is probably brilliant, but I got hung up on this line. It has already been clearly and amply explained that;

1- PRE-PATCH, attackers could destroy any siege weapon simply by stacking in one spot and spamming AoE skills. The only way to defend was to have equal or better numbers and actually LEAVE the keep…the thing that’s supposed to be giving you an advantage.

2- PRE-PATCH, defenders standing on the wall were utterly useless. Bad coding makes it so that you can’t even shoot back at the people who are shooting YOU!! Do you get this? Do you understand this at all? You’re killing me from below, and the game says I can’t shoot you in the face with my rifle because manatees. That point isn’t even debateable, is it? Massed defenders standing on the wall are lining up to be converted into bags. Period.

3-POST-PATCH, attackers can still AoE down siege weaponry, and they can still yank defenders from the wall, and kill them on the wall. The only difference is that now, attackers WILL get killed and hurt some in the process, instead of typing “zzzzzzz…” in map chat while waiting for the gate to inevitably come down.

So please, explain to me how the walls and the height advantage were useful to the pre-patch defenders when being on said walls meant you couldn’t attack (bad coding), and couldn’t defend (all siege destroyed by stacked and invulnerable zergs).

Lance.5892:

FractalChaos.6539:

Lance.5892:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

REALLY?? REALLY??

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

STRAIGHT FROM ARENANET’S MOUTH ON GUILD WARS 2 WEBSITE

PVP COMBAT ON AN EPIC SCALE

…involving “mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems” in order to “lay siege to castles”.

and thus where does it say anything about attrition?

PVP COMBAT ON AN EPIC SCALE

Mmmm, yes. Silly me, believing that the inclusion of supply, supply camps and supply lines (upon which all defense and offense depends) might not implicitly involve attrition, i.e. starving the enemy of supplies while wearing down his defenses.

Dzent.2750:

Well i used to be an WvWvW player but then i took an arrow from a overpowered arrow cart to the knee .

Why the hell didn’t anyone come up with that line sooner?? =P

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

What server are you on, if you can organise an entire map then let us know, we will take you up on that.

I’m on SoR; enjoy the ridiculous queues. Now THERE is something Anet should be focusing on. =((((

Ok, we’ve beaten 100 SoR’s already, we can do it again.

It must have been a very long time ago. I left Dragonbrand 1 week after launch to join SoR, been here ever since, and I’ve never heard of you.

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

TyrDaishi.1057:

FractalChaos.6539:

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

There is not one of the many well known and respected Guilds that Caliban and I mentioned caring for wxp or karma.

You are missing the point of what we are trying to say.

We want WvW to be hard, we want WvW to be a gamemode where you need to work hard to achieve something. We are just not satisfied with the methodes that where used to do so.

One of the many reasons is that there are literally hundreds of suggestions made in these very forums to bring a better experience for all gamers in guild Wars 2, which are getting ignored so far. And keep in mind that the suggestions vary from 1vs1 to a full out large scale battle 100 vs 100 vs 100.

I’m not a big fan of the cult of personality that seems to spring up in videogames. I never heard of those guilds you mentioned, and I don’t care in any case. Their thoughts and opinions are no more important than anyone else’s. More than 3/4 of the time, clashes with this or that “uber skilled WvW guild” in the open field culminate with the realization that they’re pretty kitten ordinary.

They’re just really good at PR.

It’s not about whether you like us or think we are good. It’s that you were wrong about the way you judged us.

And even if you think we are ordinary our opinion still matters, just as much as yours does. But these guilds usually have a lot of experience in the game so it is likely they might know what they talk about. It gives people a framework to put those posts in. It also shows numbers. These guilds range from anywhere between 20 to 300 members (though most probably float around 100 active members with peaks of online members of about 50-60)

Whoa, whoa; this isn’t an indictment of any one specific guild. I’m simply pointing out that “Oooooh, Guilds A, B, C,D and E all hate this change? Wow, and I hear they’re pretty good; they must be right!!” doesn’t even enter into the debate. Who you are, how well known you are, and how impressive a guild appears to someone else has zero incidence on the debate at hand, and it doesn’t mean they have anymore credibility than anyone else.

This is a different hobby horse of mine, though. I have 3 level 80 characters, and all three entered WvW at or about level 9, and reached 80 by playing WvW exclusively. Others may have 4 or 5 level 80s with the same background, who knows. The point is that people like me have just as much time /played in WvW as “uber guild X”, and just as much knowledge and experience, and in my personal experience (that is, what I have been through and not what someone else says I should think), this arrow cart buff is just not that big of a deal.

No one has shown me any evidence yet to contradict what I am seeing in the field.

Also;

Zephyrus.9680:

AC should do no damage to other siege weapons. At least with the #1 attack.

Either that or the buff should only happen when outmanned.

The cheapest piece of siege SHOULD be one of the weakest and certainly not able to counter almost any offensive tactic.

I agree 100%; the ACs should be able to kill the ram operators, just not the ram (or cata or whatever). It’s an anti-personnel weapon; it should be useless against walls, doors, and other siege weapons.

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

Lance.5892:

Johje Holan.4607:

It doesn’t actually seem that powerful to me. The most I was hitting for on a regular AC with no mastery was 1245. But mostly in the mid triple digits.

And to tell you the truth, I saw a lot of offensive AC’s too.

And the zergs in my match actually split up last night! It was fun.

http://imgur.com/w0LVRTA

1) try a superior
2) factor in wxp rank ac upgrades

This only encourages me to get 100 people to zerg a single tower. The 2 people on sup AC’s can’t possibly kill all 100 before we get the gate down…

…and while you do that, we’ll take the rest of the map. There’s a price to pay for everything.

With how many people? 2 people in those towers with AC’s will be able to hold you off… starting to see the problem? Probably not…

Firstly; two people in a tower with ACs will slow down 100 attackers for about…15, 20 seconds? I get that you were exaggerating to make a point (I hope you were; you’re not really so bad your 100 attackers can’t steamroll a tower with 2 defenders in under 60 seconds, are you?), but try to keep the scale even moderately realistic.

Secondly: two people with ACs in a tower can hold off 10 people, maximum…as long as said 10 people are not stupid enough to try and ram the gate down. If, however, said 10 people build 2 catas and aim them at the gate or the wall, the two people in the tower with arrow carts are pretty boned.

Lance.5892:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

REALLY?? REALLY??

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

STRAIGHT FROM ARENANET’S MOUTH ON GUILD WARS 2 WEBSITE

PVP COMBAT ON AN EPIC SCALE

…involving “mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems” in order to “lay siege to castles”.

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

Ruprect.7260:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

You are. The one and only complaint I hear from you and your ilk boils down to “It’s not as fast as it was before”. Irrelevant noise.

And when we say as fast = hours before, way more hours or near impossible now.

I think in some tiers fast = 10 mins. In T1/2/3 fast rarely means less than an hour for a T3 defended keep.

You know something, you’re right on that point. I grant you that in other tiers, the difficulty may ramp up in a steeper curve because of this. SoR has been in tier 1 a while so the only viewpoint I get is that of one server with a whole lotta people fighting 2 other servers with a whole lotta people. That probably distorts things as I see them.

Given that I still say however (server population or tier notwithstanding) that ACs needed a huge boost, reducing it to +50% damage versus +80% would be worth trying and seeing if servers in lower tiers can work around that.

Kudos to you on putting forth a reasoned and well thought out argument and not making it “my opinion is better than your opinion” like so many others here!!

Psssst: You can’t return them to pre-patch damage levels however. They then go back to being irrelevant.

OutspokenAardvark.9781:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

lmao.

What tier are you in?

Tier One, which is meaningless, since a server “going up in tiers” relies only on how many guilds it can recruit and what kind of coverage it can field, not how skilled the players on it actually are…

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

ParaldaWind.4523:

I was both wiped by superior arrow carts tonight, and wiped others, and I never once had any fun doing it.

Stop encouraging us not to PvP, Anet.

I timed this last night; I have a level 80 Engineer with about 2400 armor and 24k hit points. He literally stood, /dancing, in arrow rain from a superior AC for 35 seconds before the AC got him down to 30% HP and he had to heal himself. He then /danced for another 17-18 seconds before /laughing and heading back into Bay.

Either you’re not very good at this game, or else you’re exaggerating/lying.

And I can tell you that you’re making crap up. This is simply not possible without external healing. Your math is broken. Superior arrow carts pulse 1500+, twice per second, against even the tankiest of characters. With 24k health, that’s 16 pulses and you’re dead (probably faster with a medium armor class which typically pulses for 1700+). Read: Two uses of the arrow cart and you’re dead.

You were not dancing in superior arrow cart fire for 35 seconds….

I have a guardian with around 3000 armor and just under 24k health (the new sentinel armor). One use of a superior arrow cart on me had me at 50% health, and the arrow cart I was operating had about 5% health left.

Again I say: You were not dancing in superior arrow cart fire for 35 seconds….

Guess I will have to try and replicate it and FRAPS it. It’s really quite funny. You’re doing math on a message board; I’ve stood there getting plinked. Which one of us has the more solid experience of the situation?

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

Then you are a good commander and will have succeeded where others have failed. I personally would love to try that and I’m sure it would be a good fight. If you are sure that you would win, I think you are overconfident.

Not saying it is impossible for you to take hills, I’m saying it is not a sure thing. We’ve proven that before.

Few things are ever sure, I grant you that completely. I could be 100% wrong about this (although I really, really sincerely doubt it). That’s the fun of it, though, is it not? Not being certain that you’re going to win, snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, etc..

WvW success is still most easily (and reliably) achieved when you attain a certain critical mass of players, though. When you reach that certain point (and I think 100 PUGs qualifies), you’re no longer an army or a fighting force, you’re a steamroller. I’ve seen it done -and done it- with far less. That’s why all this whining annoys me; it can be done and it’s a helluva lot of fun, but it looks like most people are just balking at how long it takes.

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

Then you are a good commander and will have succeeded where others have failed. I personally would love to try that and I’m sure it would be a good fight. If you are sure that you would win, I think you are overconfident.

Not saying it is impossible for you to take hills, I’m saying it is not a sure thing. We’ve proven that before.

I’m exceedingly confident, actually. We have a handful of pretty atrocious commanders (from a strategic and not tactical point of view) on SoR, and yet they do surprisingly well, even if the best plan they can come up with is “Let them have it we’ll just flip it back later”.

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

What server are you on, if you can organise an entire map then let us know, we will take you up on that.

I’m on SoR; enjoy the ridiculous queues. Now THERE is something Anet should be focusing on. =((((

Ruprect.7260:

FractalChaos.6539:

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

If a karma train can’t take your tower then what chance does a guild special ops/havoc team have.

None, and that’s as it should be. A fortified and defended tower should be a major defensive asset for the home BL. A fortified keep should be a tremendous challenge to take, and it should hurt.

The ability to “ninja” a fortified structure was one of the dumbest things in the game, and only little karma addicts are crying over this change.

Wrong, once a server nightcaps all of your stuff you will not get it back. the week is decided on reset night. We were slowly gaining in points until the change went into effect right after we had been night capped, now there is no way to take anything back. They need to really increase the matches to a month if they really want us to take days to get a keep back.

The many towers and keeps SoR has retaken (and lost and retaken and lost again) since the patch was introduced would beg to differ with you.

TyrDaishi.1057:

FractalChaos.6539:

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

There is not one of the many well known and respected Guilds that Caliban and I mentioned caring for wxp or karma.

You are missing the point of what we are trying to say.

We want WvW to be hard, we want WvW to be a gamemode where you need to work hard to achieve something. We are just not satisfied with the methodes that where used to do so.

One of the many reasons is that there are literally hundreds of suggestions made in these very forums to bring a better experience for all gamers in guild Wars 2, which are getting ignored so far. And keep in mind that the suggestions vary from 1vs1 to a full out large scale battle 100 vs 100 vs 100.

I’m not a big fan of the cult of personality that seems to spring up in videogames. I never heard of those guilds you mentioned, and I don’t care in any case. Their thoughts and opinions are no more important than anyone else’s. More than 3/4 of the time, clashes with this or that “uber skilled WvW guild” in the open field culminate with the realization that they’re pretty kitten ordinary.

They’re just really good at PR.

Lance.5892:

FractalChaos.6539:

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

I must be missing something

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsdlBjm79dQ

WHERE IS THE KARMA GAIN IN FIGHTING ???????

granted, this video was a gvg on an open field. Most fights like this take place in attacking and defending keeps.

You gain karma and WXP by taking or defending objectives. Camps, towers, keeps, yaks, etc.

The faster you can do so, the faster you gain karma and WXP. Therefore, anything that slows down how quickly you can accomplish said objectives is a brake on WXP/karma gain. It’s a simple concept really.

Loken.9724:

Lance.5892:

Johje Holan.4607:

It doesn’t actually seem that powerful to me. The most I was hitting for on a regular AC with no mastery was 1245. But mostly in the mid triple digits.

And to tell you the truth, I saw a lot of offensive AC’s too.

And the zergs in my match actually split up last night! It was fun.

http://imgur.com/w0LVRTA

1) try a superior
2) factor in wxp rank ac upgrades

This only encourages me to get 100 people to zerg a single tower. The 2 people on sup AC’s can’t possibly kill all 100 before we get the gate down…

…and while you do that, we’ll take the rest of the map. There’s a price to pay for everything.

Johje Holan.4607:

Loken.9724:

When reset rolls around. If you get hills right away. you will have it the entire match. from start to finish baring some ridiculous mistake in leaving it undefended (than good luck ever getting it back)

I will bet you all the gold I have this is not true.

I copy/pasted his post so I can come back here after the reset and address it with evidence. =)

evildan.8260:

Kebab.4013:

evildan.8260:

Anything that cuts down on blobs derping down gates is a good move.

It’s like some people here have never heard of cats and trebs to get into places…

There are some people here not knowing what is fun about playing wvwvw…

I like a good siege myself- much more fun than blobbing up and zerging towers in some karma train.

Good man.

Kebab.4013:

In all honesty. The people that enjoyed long out siegefights, shouldn’t they have left now after 8 months?

My mind has exploded. -.-

Nope, we were waiting for something like this AC buff.

Breytes.6901:

I ran my overly squishy thief in WvW for several hours last night and I did not die to a single arrow cart the entire time.

Shh. Arrow carts are massively overpowered now. One player with an arrow cart can defend garrison by himself now.

KStudios.2850:

Heijincks.9267:

I suppose the previous meta wasn’t what Anet wanted WvW to be. For example, let’s take guild ownership.

The objectives get flipped so fast in the former meta that there’s literally no point in making one for your guild. If they buff siege up to the point that it’s impossible to quickly take an objective, and make each objective a fortress, then might there be some point in doing so.

In other words, it probably wasn’t Anet’s vision for fast flips. The previous meta was not what they wanted. They probably want WvW to be more like drawn out, perpetual warfare with more meaningful objectives. Yes, that probably will mean WvW will stagnate. That said, the new meta will separate the good commanders from the bad ones since tactics are forced. Also, having few defenders being able to hold off large numbers also depromotes nightcapping.

It’ll interesting to see how this will turn out. Right now it’s simply a matter of waiting for everyone to adjust, or waiting for those who are unwilling to adjust leave. I’m guessing that in the near future, objectives will be valuable enough that people won’t just go do something like “Drain all supplies from X and move to Y”.

This^

He/she gets it. I’m tired of being steamrolled under-foot because some sea-guild nightcaps consistantly night after night in the instances when our “big guns” aren’t around to save us. I’m tired of being just an inevitable smear on the ground in some mobs karma-train. Then having my carcass “bagged” and laughed at in the lord’s room I so desperately tried to defend. Like I was the one whose efforts were pointless, and you cowards can’t take me on in equal terms. There’s no good fight or any measure of respectable PvP in a 4v30+, so that argument is totally moot. We also certainly didn’t get respected for our efforts in trying either.

Defending is actually worthwhile now for those of us who don’t want to participate in your mouth-frothing zergball karma-trains. Someone asks “U mad?” you’re kitten’ing right I’m mad. I do NOT want to get thrown back into just plain ol’ more of the same. Is 80% dmg increase too much? Maybe. We could probably compromise and settle for 50%, but I do not want to step backward to the time when zergs reigned.

Kudos to you, sir.

Caliban.3176:

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

You are. The one and only complaint I hear from you and your ilk boils down to “It’s not as fast as it was before”. Irrelevant noise.

Space.8053:

id like them to reduce the range back to normal.

if someone builds 12 arrow carts at a gate then chances are nothings going to come ramming through that way anyway pre or post patch.

Attack a wall then? Attack the gate and two walls at the same time?

shakes his head

TallDan.6350:

Kebab.4013:

Dawdler.8521:

morrolan.9608:

I take it you don’t play on a T1 server then.

Has it ever occured to anyone… That if T1 servers cant adapt to the new arrowcarts, they dont deserve to be in T1 and will inevitably drop?

Yes let tier 1 drop and let the people who desire stagnant and borring fighting step forward.

That will keep the game alive.

ps. it doesn’t.

fix the arrowcarts.

Being encouraged to use intelligence and tactical thinking is boring but standing in front of a gate pressing 1 in a big blob, then running into the lord room and pressing 1 then running to the next tower pressing 1 is fun.

Plz nrf arrw crtz

You have to understand that by boring, they actually mean “not as much easy fast karma as before”. Then you can see where they’re coming from…not that it makes them anymore right.

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

ParaldaWind.4523:

I was both wiped by superior arrow carts tonight, and wiped others, and I never once had any fun doing it.

Stop encouraging us not to PvP, Anet.

I timed this last night; I have a level 80 Engineer with about 2400 armor and 24k hit points. He literally stood, /dancing, in arrow rain from a superior AC for 35 seconds before the AC got him down to 30% HP and he had to heal himself. He then /danced for another 17-18 seconds before /laughing and heading back into Bay.

Either you’re not very good at this game, or else you’re exaggerating/lying.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

If a karma train can’t take your tower then what chance does a guild special ops/havoc team have.

None, and that’s as it should be. A fortified and defended tower should be a major defensive asset for the home BL. A fortified keep should be a tremendous challenge to take, and it should hurt.

The ability to “ninja” a fortified structure was one of the dumbest things in the game, and only little karma addicts are crying over this change.

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

Snorcha.7586:

I think it’s not only the buff to arrowcarts, but also the removal of any way to defend against them, IE. Swirls etc. Was anyone really complaining about swirls?? really?? It added a tactic and also gave the focus a reason to be used… At a loss with this patch.

Yes, elementalists were complaining about swirls…because it pigeonholed them in a very boring, unrewarding role.

By the way, the most common complaint I heard in WvW during sieges as an attacker; “They’ve got 5-6 eles swirling; this is taking so loooooong….”

The most common complaint heard during sieges as a defender; “Man arrow carts are kittening useless”.

Just an observation.

I wonder when the players will stop complaining and start playing the game long enough to realize that arrow carts aren’t a big deal. Most of you are just regurgitating the same nonsense you’ve seen others write without even trying it out for yourselves. Ask the guy camping the gate into Vale with his AC how “powerful” they are. I hopped around and danced in his arrow spam for a good 3 minutes before 2 allies came along and killed him.

Listening to all this noise, him and his death r- I mean, arrow cart, should have wtfpwned us.

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

Or the defence was just exceptionally bad…

Some people’s constitutional inability to admit they’re wrong…it’s just baffling.

This word…I do not think it means what you think it means.

CONSTITUTIONAL (con·sti·tu·tion·al)

1- Of or pertaining to the constitution of a state, organization, etc.

2- Subject to the provisions of such a constitution: a constitutional monarchy.

3- Provided by, in accordance with, or not prohibited by, such a constitution: the constitutional powers of the president; a constitutional law.

4- belonging to or inherent in the character or makeup of a person’s body or mind: a constitutional weakness for sweets.

Nah you didn’t get it. Why would he admit that he’s wrong when he’s right?
A “constitutional inability” would imply that it’s some sort of character flaw and he’s unwilling to recognize an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary of his opinion. Seems to apply more to those defending the change in this case…

You questioned my understanding of the word; I clarified and pointed out that my usage was correct. I do indeed believe that those complaining most loudly about this change are simply unwilling to accept that their doom-and-gloom predictions are wrong, or else they won’t admit they are wrong because that would somehow embarrass them (why I have no clue).

You say those in favor of it are the ones who are wrong. That’s a matter of perception only. The usage of the word is correct, and saying “Nuh uh, I’m not wrong YOU are so you used the word incorrectly in the context of this sentence” doesn’t change that.

For the record; I’m a gigantic fan of George Carlin and his obsession over the sanctity and elegance of the English language.

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

Or the defence was just exceptionally bad…

Some people’s constitutional inability to admit they’re wrong…it’s just baffling.

This word…I do not think it means what you think it means.

CONSTITUTIONAL (con·sti·tu·tion·al)

1- Of or pertaining to the constitution of a state, organization, etc.

2- Subject to the provisions of such a constitution: a constitutional monarchy.

3- Provided by, in accordance with, or not prohibited by, such a constitution: the constitutional powers of the president; a constitutional law.

4- belonging to or inherent in the character or makeup of a person’s body or mind: a constitutional weakness for sweets.

Bones.5762:

its not fear mongering, i did it before the buff, with a coordinated group, whats to stop uncoordinated groups from doing the same now. I’ve defended hills and garrison with a ratio of 1:4 before (15v70+).

I don’t like to play this card, but…seriously, if you held off 70 people with 15…you were playing against upleveled, poorly geared, exceptionally inept players. I don’t mean bad; I mean “Pac-Mac is unbeatable!” bad. Sorry; that’s the only explanation.

People say change tactics but lets be real, what else is there to do if you can’t ram a keep?

I just told you in the previous post; attack from more than one direction at once. It’s blindingly simple.

How would your 15 have protected Garrison from 20 enemies trebbing the wall from Cliffside while at the exact same time another 20 enemies attack the Watergate and another 20 attack the SW gate? The answer is; you would have failed. They’d get in, and there wouldn’t be a kitten thing you could do to stop it…and I even left out 10 of those 70 players you mentioned.

The problem here is all these pseudo commanders. SoR has their fair share too, including some real whoppers who happen to have fan clubs supporting their every inept move, but I digress. These commanders wouldn’t know the difference between tactics and strategy if you clubbed them over the head with it.

Aneu.1748:

Or the defence was just exceptionally bad…

Some people’s constitutional inability to admit they’re wrong…it’s just baffling.

Bones.5762:

scanz.4536:

Those supporting this change are only looking at it from a defensive point of view. Yes, it’s great that it now requires less people to defend a tower/keep from an oversized zerg through the use of powerful arrow carts. However, how is a small sized guild/squad meant to have any success in attacking a tower/keep? 2 or 3 people will be able to hold off a group of 10-20 with no problem whatsoever with the new upgrades. This will in turn force people to increase the size of their group, so once again encouraging people to run in a ridiculously sized zerg.

If I am understanding you here, the argument is; “This change hurts you more than it helps you because now the ENEMY can defend better too!”

I say again; good.

ACs aren’t overpowered, they’re now as powerful as they were meant to be. That’s all. These claims that 3 people can hold off 25 and that 5 people can hold off 50…that’s just fear mongering and a lot of hyperventilation.

On our BL yesterday, SoR was fighting JQ over Bay at the south gate. We had arrow carts, we had AC operators (15-20?). JQ had more people (40 or so I guess?) and they won. They breached the wall in two spots while also attacking the gate, and created 3 ways in. It took longer, yes; but in the end, they won. You can’t build 5 arrow carts in every single place the enemy can possibly breach; that means the enemy can get in.

Simple logic.

A significant numerical advantage will still win you the fights and the PPT; you’re just going to have to work for it now instead of letting 10 people zerg the door down while the other 20 all /dance and /sleep.

shortcake.8659:

Yes, yes, arrow carts indeed. Now when two zergs meet on the field there will be time warped arrow cart building and they’ll just start firing crap at eachother from 3500 range rather than colliding into some kind of terrible dance routine.

Zergs don’t even collide now; they see other, rush at each other, then pull up short and start AoEing each other across no-man’s land.

Lance.5892:

MagnusLL.8473:

Ruprect.7260:

So the smart guys build a cata outside of ac range. They build a ballista and destroy the cata. The attackers build a treb, lol, the defenders build a counter treb, being that it takes far less hits to take down the treb with the counter treb than it does for the attacking treb to take down a wall (we are no longer able to block treb shots) the defenders win again. How again is anyone in a high tier going to take a tower/keep lol.

You don’t need to take down the walls, just the enemy ACs, THEN you plop down your rams.
And yes, they could rebuild more. That’s why supply-starving the enemy becomes (more) critical.

In other words, you can’t go and facerub down a structure anymore. You need to plan how you’re going to take it, using things like detaching a doliak sniping team to stop them from receiving more supplies while keeping YOUR supply flow intact so you can win the siege weapons’ arms race. This means you now need at least 3 separate fighting groups instead of the mono zerg. How is this a bad thing?

wait…you do realize theres spots you can put acs where you cant aoe them or dragons tooth right? and they can STILL hit the gate to kill ALL SIEGE HITTING THE GATE AND THE PEOPLE?

Catapults or trebs can take care of that. It just means you can no longer play the same way, you have to change. It really is that simple.

Caliban.3176:

Defenders have no advantage?

You can go in and out of the portal killing attackers and come back inside to safety and heal. There are plenty of smart placements for siege where you have an advantage (cliffside has awesome spots for example). You can buff up and use all your skills while the people down there are on rams or attacking the gate and have some stuff on cooldown. You can portalbomb and bait them. You can let them in and kill them in the choke and then repair the gate.

I’ll grant you this though. In an idiotzerg vs idiotzerg situation the attackers have the advantage. But should a game cater to idiottactics?

You can go in and out of the portal killing attackers and come back inside to safety and heal.
Assuming I don’t die the moment I poke my nose out (because of the 30 people standing right there who want to kill me), yes, I can do that. Doesn’t help my keep as attackers will still be taking down the door at range, and that player I killed will be insta-rezzed by his zerg. I had zero effect on the outcome and the keep will still fall.

There are plenty of smart placements for siege where you have an advantage (cliffside has awesome spots for example). Cliffside is well loved for this very reason. It’s easy to defend. It’s also the exception that proves the rule. There are 2 keeps, a garrison, and 3 other towers where standing on the walls is pretty much a death trap.

You can buff up and use all your skills while the people down there are on rams or attacking the gate and have some stuff on cooldown. It is impossible to attack anyone from the walls unless you stand on the very edge. Unfortunately, that means they can hit you, too (and use Scorpion Wire, Spectral Grasp, that wrench #5 that I love, or the Mesmer pull to drag you down and filet you). Where is the advantage to the defenders here? And what about the 15 friends behind the ram operators, all shooting at the same gate with pistols, bows, rifles, scepters and staves? Will they continue to attack the gate while I go out and butcher those manning the rams?

You can portalbomb and bait them.
How is that an advantage for the defenders again?

You can let them in and kill them in the choke and then repair the gate.
How is that an advantage for the defenders again? You’ve been breached. Your defense failed. Baiting a zerg and then killing it can be done at supply camps, open field, keeps, towers…it’s not specific to a siege defense scenario.

Here’s the bottom line; in a siege, 5 people in a fully fortified keep with ample siege weaponry and supplies SHOULD have a better than 50-50 chance of holding off 15 or 20 people. Siege weaponry is what’s known as a force multiplier; five average people with pocket knives versus 15 people with machetes are in deep trouble. Put those same 5 average people behind a concrete wall and give them each a gattling gun (ac) and those 15 people with machetes SHOULD melt and die. That’s how it’s supposed to be.

EDIT: I just noticed also that many of your suggestions involve leaving the safety of the keep, giving up the one REAL advantage (you know, the walls and gate?) which defenders are supposed to have. You’re sort of making my case for me.